Made a Teabagger's Head Explode Today.

[Tommykun]

All of the GOPers and teabaggers tout Reagan as the prime example of conservative principles. Many also contend that Kennedy was not too bad of a guy. Today, I was discussing economics with a relative, who is a teabagger, and he began doing the whole "Reagan was awesome," shtick. Saying that his tax rates were the best for all, his economic policies were great and that it brought in the tech boom we saw during the 80s and 90s, etc etc etc... Also threw in a bit about Kennedy's policies being good and so on.

Then I brought up the active top tax rate under Reagan during his early years (before the Sec. of Treasury began ordering him around) was around 50% and I even showed him my source. He was, to say the least, appalled and claimed it was some liberal conspiracy and that Reagan had the lowest tax rates and it's only been since Reagan that taxes on the rich have been "so high." Ya know, since big bad ol' Clinton and the black guy. You can't point out that tax rates are lower on the rich than they've been in over a century or they go into seizures or, even worse, Limbaugh Parrot mode.

I then proceeded to school him on tax rates during a period of abounding economic prosperity in the US, which existed from the end of WWII to around the late 60's to early 70's. Top tax rates were in the 80-91% area until Kennedy dropped top rates to around 70%. This rate would stay in effect until the 1980's. I also informed him of the wondrous regulations that were in place during this time that kept companies from monopolizing markets, which allowed for small business owners to not just survive but thrive during this period.

I also pointed out something which I honestly believe he never thought about; NAFTA. NAFTA eliminated tariffs on goods coming from many countries (read as China) which, essentially, took America's competitive ability and beat it over the head with a horribly painted, lead-infused hammer that reads "Pack&Mecker." Tariffs are the equalizing factor in many developed countries. If a company wants to break into a market, they don't export their goods from their home nation to another. They create a branch, build factories and create jobs in the country they want a foothold in. That's how companies got around tariffs, by being productive members of each country's economy.

NAFTA stopped that for us. Companies that were founded here shipped their workforce to China because they could pay less than 10% of current wages, work them longer, harder, and with worse environments, and torture under-performing employees. Companies that were here but were from other nations shut down their branches and bolstered their Chinese production efforts.

However, I digress... After this old-school thrashing, he was left speechless. His confusion turned to rage, his rage turned to obscenities and a small dent in my storm door's paneling. However, from now on when his almighty messiah Ryan says certain things, he will always have a flash of the webpages I showed him and a whisper of my words float through his mind.

They may hate us, but they damn sure can't forget us.

[silvershadow]

1. I have had on ongoing FB debate, well over a year now with a Teabagger.

It has devolved into the swamp many times, including a couple of un-friendings and re-friendings. Last night he exploded when I told him Reagan raised taxes 11 times or something like that. He went berserk and told me I was full of s***. Then he closed down. His ears are completely closed. His mind is closed. He won't change his mind, which is ok. All I do is refute each and every bs thing he posts that I see, mostly so his friends can see my responses. Who knows, maybe someone, somewhere will be reached by my message. His last message to me was "Get a d*** job" (knowing I have debilitating MS). :/

[Tommykun]

2. I know that feeling...

Facts just do not apply to these people. They would rather live in their fantasy land of unicorns with machine guns instead of horns, Karl Rove and Rush Limbaugh on every television channel and radio station, and Pat Robertson sending Democrats to hell every other Tuesday during the "You're Right, Everyone Else is Wrong, Now Send me $500 Admission for Heaven" televangelist hour.

It's sad to consider that Reagan is considered a liberal compared to these people. Hell, in many cases he's considered liberal compared to our Democrats. I'd rather go back to Reagan's first term's economic policy than deal with the bull that we have to today.

Also, I am sorry to hear of your disease. I wish you peace and I pray that your pain is lessened somehow.

[Bohunk68]

10. "Unicorns with machine guns"

Damn, I like that!!!

[silvershadow]

24. Thank you. I maintain that whether Obama wins reelection or not

we still have a lot of crap to slog through politically. These people are literally unhinged at this point. If Romney wins you know it will be bad. If Obama wins I will be happy, but I will have to hunker down for awhile. There are actually several people on my FB of 400 or so that I worry about.

[lovemydog]

3. These are the central arguments to destroy tea party

and republican party policies. Great job.

Also, the republican congress under Gingrich, in its infinite stupidity, lowered capital gains taxes from 30% to 15%.

Romney and Ryan want to lower it to 0. That's sick. It amounts to nothing more than the largest transfer of wealth from the working class to the rich in American history.

[Tommykun]

4. It's not only wealth transfer,

it's un-American. An excess of wealth and influence at the top is the greatest threat to freedom. History has proven this time and time again. Once great nations crumbled because of one thing and one thing only; greed. To use their own religious text against them, Ezekiel 16:49-50: "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it."

To have a sustainable economy, buying power needs to be in the hands of the majority, not a minority. Give people more money and they'll buy things that they need and want as well as invest it. That, in turn, creates wealth for not just the top dogs but everyone along the way. You can not impoverish the majority and expect a stable economy.

Anyway, back on the topic of taxes and federal revenue... Republicans claim to want a strong defense budget... But... if you get rid of a good portion of funding, where's that money going to come from? Education is the first target... After all, if its anything that monarchies, dictatorships, and fascist regimes have taught us is that an educated population is the biggest threat to power. But that still won't off-set the costs because our education budget is nothing compared to our defense budget.

Next target, social security. Go ahead and shut down the program but don't refund the hundreds of billions that are sitting there waiting to be disbursed to the current generation of seniors and the next two generations... Instead, lets go buy some of those shiny F-22s, because, ya know, 22 is a bigger number than 16 or 18... Even though they explode on a regular basis during start up...

[goodword]

19. Republicans want a strong defense budget because....

They make their millions sucking OUR tax dollars up through the DOD pipeline, to their investors and then into their pockets. At the expense of OUR children's lives.

[oldsarge54]

21. I have mixed emotions

Yes, the military budget is bloated. Mostly because we really have not had a good rethink about the future. It does not look like man is not going to study war no more, but what sort of wars are we looking at? I think the Balkans and Libyan conflicts are going to prove to be the model of the future. Yes, a smaller force, but not necessarily cheaper. Air intervention calls for either bases overseas or carriers. Breaking and entering ala Bin Laden calls for high training and top notch gear. I'll try not to ramble, but here is a statement, please comment: F-15 getting long in the tooth. F-16s were an 80s design that you can only upgrade so much. The Buff damn near is ready to collect social security. Some of those nuclear carriers are getting to retirement, and frankly, who wants to 900 ft underwater in a sub older than yourself? My question, would you want your child in a dog fight in the second best fighter?

[Historic NY]

28. The problem is they can't even fix whats already developed...

the F-22 Raptor the premier fighter jet in the world is having problems and pilots are refusing to fly them because they pass out...contractors are already licking their chops for a new fighter. The F-35 is 100 million a copy that program is expected to end up costing 1 trillion upon completion. There were 13 major flaws in this design and 735 changes made on the assembly line. The problem is the military spends like there is no tomorrow, cost over runs, under budgeting and out and out waste and fraud aren't helping. The Navy has 11 carriers operational, one in reserve and is presently building one and two more are ordered.

An example the army's uniforms don't work...they actually make the soldier better targets.

http://www.stripes.com/mobile/news/army/the-military-s-misadventures-in-pixelated-camouflage-1.182240

My point is some of this stuff is just plain crazy. Cutting back and holding contractors to their bids and penalities on overruns would go a long way.

[oldsarge54]

31. Would agree in Part

Over runs are one thing. Two problems, one, our contracting based on lowest bidder and cost plus is bad. Fixing design problems should be on the manufacture. However, being most aircraft (and I'm sure other weapons) manufactures are in every congressional district, and congress writes the laws by which contracts are let.... Don't blame the military for that. Prime example, the B-2. Air Force wanted 12. Congress forced 12 more on the Air Force that the AF didn't want. Remember what Niel Armstrong said as they lit off the Apollo 11, "This was built by the lowest bidder?"

[lovemydog]

33. Great points

and welcome here!

[Ya Basta]

5. Reagan tax increases and Reagan on undocumented immigrants

Can't help to wonder if instead of Saint Reagan being in these two news clips it were Obama how this guy would react.

[Tommykun]

6. Just posted both videos to my FB feed..

Just waiting for heads to explode... Thank you for the videos good sir or ma'am.

[Ya Basta]

7. If something good/funny happens fill us in. :)

Love hearing about teabaggers getting a dose of reality.

[DavidL]

8. These are priceless!!!! Wonderful clips.

These clips should be played over and over.

[Tommykun]

12. It's sad but hilarious

that Pres. Reagan is far left compared to these whackos on...well...everything.

[progressoid]

15. tee hee hee!!

I'm saving those for the inevitable arguments that will come up in the near future!

[spicegal]

9. I have ongoing arguments all the time and provide credible non-partisan fact checking links, but

they are not deterred from their fantasy thinking. In their world, if they don't hear it from Rush or Fox, it can't possibly be true. They think everything outside of their bubble is a "liberal conspiracy". They've completely blanked out the Bush years (and before) and can't connect the dots. It's very much like a cult. It would require an intense "de-programming protocol" to break through that bubble, which is generally beyond the scope of these comment sections.

[southernyankeebelle]

11. How sad that you had to give him so many facts yet that seemed to get in the way.

When you give them the facts they say you got it out of some liberal news outlet. But at least you gave him food for thought even though he won't change his mind. Facts are a pesky thing.

[pampango]

13. "NAFTA eliminated tariffs on goods coming from many countries (read as China)..."

How did NAFTA eliminate tariffs on goods coming from China?

Before NAFTA we had a 'free trade' agreement in force with Canada for 7 years (which, of course, did not eliminate tariffs on Chinese goods). NAFTA simply added Mexico (not China or any other country) to the mix. How did adding Mexico eliminate tariffs on goods from China when that had not happened with the US-Canada FTA?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93United_States_Free_Trade_Agreement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAFTA

[grantcart]

17. NAFTA is one of the areas where its mythology has outstripped fact, good luck!

[Cosmocat]

14. I have had the Reagen discussion countless times and it does

create a pretty big cognitive dissonance for those who worship him.

I start on the 11 tax increases.

I move to amnesty.

I then go to his cutting and running from terrorists after the Beirut bombing.

I then say he was more liberal than Clinton was.

There are a lot of Rs who will just say, OK and deal with it, but still the pull of the evil liberal boogeyman is too much for pretty much all of them to have a complete reconnection with reality.

There are a number who just get huffy and won't even admit it in the moment.

[GeorgeGist]

16. Got pictures?

[Bandit]

18. NAFTA stands for North "American" Free Trade Agreement

It has nothing to do with any countries other than Mexico and Canada and it was signed into Law under Clinton and during the Clinton Administration more than 22 million jobs were created and the economy boomed...

[A HERETIC I AM]

20. Shhhh. He's on a roll. n/t

[TalkingDog]

22. Ha!

[Courtesy Flush]

23. This is why Romney hides his tax returns

He's not hiding them from us. He doesn't want the Tea Party to know how low his taxes are. It's a legitimate violation of their reality.

[jillan]

25. Another Reagan fact that makes them whimper - he was the last President to sign Amnesty into law.

Ohhhh - they cannot handle that little inconvenient truth.

[otohara]

26. What was his verbal response?

Or did he just storm out

[1-Old-Man]

27. When did China move to North America?

NAFTA eliminated taxes on goods inported from China? Are you sure about that? Mexico, Canada I understand, but China - how does China benefit from a North American Free Trade Agreement?

[bongbong]

29. Another raygun video to post

The one where he praises unions.

[ieoeja]

30. Chart

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/07/02/no-obamacare-isnt-the-largest-tax-increase-in-the-history-of-the-world-in-one-chart/

Note that the first four are Reagan's. As is one later one. The later one by itself is larger than the Obamacare increase will be. All five added together are several times greater than the eventual Obamacare increase.


And while I know it is a waste of time, you will note that we do not "keep raising taxes". There have been only two significant tax increases since Reagan. While the Clinton tax increase included an automatic adjustment for inflation for the first time. This means there has actually been a tax decrease in all but two years since 1993!

And there there are:

Bush Tax Holiday of 2001 - extended in 2011, due to expire next year
Bush Tax Holiday of 2003 - due to expire next year
Obama Tax Holiday of 2009 - extended in 2011, due to expire next year

[Whiskeytide]

32. when income tax rates are high...

... companies reinvest in themselves to avoid tax liability. When rates are low, CEOs buy yachts, $6,000 shower curtains, extra houses and car elevators. You don't have to be smart to get this.