General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsForced penetration: If a woman forces a man to have sex, is that rape?
From https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-49057533
By Katie Silver
BBC News
25 July 2019
When a man has penetrative sex with a woman without her consent, that's rape. But what if a woman makes a man have penetrative sex with her, without his consent? That's not rape under the law of England and Wales, but the author of a new study of the phenomenon says perhaps it should be.
Some readers will find this story disturbing
Dr Siobhan Weare of Lancaster University Law School carried out the first research into forced penetration in the UK in 2016-7, gathering information from more than 200 men via an online survey.
Her latest study, published this week - based on one-to-one interviews with 30 men between May 2018 and July 2019 - explores in greater detail the context in which forced penetration occurs, its consequences, and the response of the criminal justice system.
All the participants were anonymised, but I will call one of them John.
[...]
More at link.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,145 posts)it is rape.
JI7
(89,172 posts)Igel
(35,191 posts)can he consent?
Response to Igel (Reply #23)
ismnotwasm This message was self-deleted by its author.
Ilsa
(61,675 posts)samnsara
(17,569 posts)Farmer-Rick
(10,071 posts)with a 30 year old woman at the age of 14. I explained that was child sexual abuse. He kind of shrugged.
This idea that boys and men can't be raped through forced penetration clears the way for child sexual abuse.
Lotusflower70
(3,077 posts)It's a horrible double standard. It's a fantasy in porn that is perpetuated in real life. It's mind boggling how some people don't see the abuse of power or victimization there.
Lotusflower70
(3,077 posts)It is rape and they need to update the law. There are people that think that a woman can't force a man to have sex with her.
zanana1
(6,084 posts)He has the instrument to penetrate. If we're talking about gay sex, I understand, but male-female? I don't get it.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)And then imagine it's more than kissing.
zanana1
(6,084 posts)TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)and alcohol. And psychological forcing. And fondling...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_males
Recursion
(56,582 posts)No need for oppression olympics, people: there's enough coercive sex to go around, unfortunately.
albacore
(2,386 posts)..but they also can be physiogenic. Stimulation can bring them on. If it's unwanted stimulation... that's rape, in an of itself.
lame54
(35,130 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,145 posts)A man can get hard and be enveloped by body parts against his will.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)Over our erections. In case you did not know.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)MicaelS
(8,747 posts)Erections at the most inopportune time. Like when you have to stand in front of the whole class.
OneBro
(1,159 posts)Force is evidence of a lack of consent, but lack of consent can exist without force.
First example: Man and Woman have consensual sex after agreeing that its safe sex with condoms or no sex. The next morning, hes thoroughly exhausted and shes ready for round 6 and wakes him with oral sex. He sorta wakes and is thinking that in a sane world every morning would start with a wake-up bj instead of alarm clocks. She climbs on top and starts riding without a condom. He suddenly realizes she has mounted him without a condo and jolts fully awake, furious. Under the circumstances, the moment she had unprotected sex with him, the sex became non-consensual. (Same as when a man secretly removes the condom during sex.)
Example 2: Its dark, she goes to the restroom and secretly sends her friend into the room where he is waiting to continue their playtime. His consent was for sex with her, not for unknowingly having sex with her friend.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Seriously, just don't. That's the entire 1950s stereotype that keeps men from talking about abuse.
milestogo
(16,829 posts)Then they take turns having sex on top of him. Just because he has an external sex organ doesn't mean he can't be raped.
Another story: A gay man and a heterosexual woman are friends. A third party who is homophobic forces the woman to perform oral sex on the gay man at gunpoint. In fear of being shot, they perform the act while he masturbates. Both have been raped and feel humiliated.
These are true stories.
Jose Garcia
(2,551 posts)NewJeffCT
(56,827 posts)and you experience "morning wood" while lying on your back- your wife, girlfriend, mistress, the woman you met last night or whatever - then decides that she wants to have sex with you while you're still sleeping or passed out. Seems pretty easy for her to slip your penis inside of her.
While I doubt a guy can climax without waking up, the initial penetration can happen.
zanana1
(6,084 posts)Hav
(5,969 posts)I'm not sure where you are coming from but it seems a bit strange.
NewJeffCT
(56,827 posts)if you were asleep and woke up to a woman on top of you having sex with you, it would be rather startling
demosincebirth
(12,518 posts)Hav
(5,969 posts)demosincebirth
(12,518 posts)Hav
(5,969 posts)That is unless you call the guys detailing the abuse they suffered liars.
Ironically, the article also mentions the myths and disbeliefs connected with this issue.
demosincebirth
(12,518 posts)Want to.
Hav
(5,969 posts)or you accuse them of making up the abuse.
Also, ask any man about the claim you just made. If you believe what you just said, I can see where you are coming from. But you are absolutely, 100% wrong about that. It's just plain wrong.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,145 posts)Your opinion is highly damaging to people who have physiological reactions during sexual assault, implying that they in some way enjoy or want it.
Crying when you cut onions doesn't mean you're sad. Laughing when someone tickles you doesn't mean you're happy. Getting hard when someone assaults you doesn't mean you want to.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)Ive ever seen at DU, and I was here for the moon bombing threads and omega minimo.
demosincebirth
(12,518 posts)NutmegYankee
(16,177 posts)Its part of REM sleep.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,145 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)Then, he says, his partner force-fed him Viagra and gagged him.
"There was nothing I could do about it," he says.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)But the "instrument," also often responst to physical stimulation even when there is no emotional desire.
Not to mention that many men I've been around wake up with an involuntary erection
Oneironaut
(5,461 posts)DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Rape is about violation and dominance, not about who put what in where.
zanana1
(6,084 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,145 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)If people want to argue about what some colloquial definition should be, that's one thing.
But having a conversation about "what is rape" among persons in different jurisdictions is a waste of time.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)By an object other than a penis it is not rape?
Igel
(35,191 posts)There is no one, divinely revealed definition.
Forcible penetration with an object used to be called "forcible penetration with an object." Rape used to have to involve a penis. Not a tongue. Not a finger. Not some other object.
The newer definition hasn't actually fully propagated through the entire linguistic community, which has led to a lot of dissent, confusion, and arguments. Mostly because some people decided to "divinely reveal" the "one true definition" and tried to forcibly change the language to suit their wishes.
Some act as though not adopting the new, required definition is a deeply anti-social, misogynistic act, as though not calling a reprehensible act by the worst possible, newly approved designation is to defend it and even promote it. That kind of agitprop is simply grasping for power.
It's a very French or Russian way of doing things, very top-down, authoritarian-based. Not so much the way that Anglophone societies have dealt with language, which is that you may have a definition good for a cant or jargon, but you don't try to dictate and coerce the community of speakers. Even prescriptivism has had its problems, as much ignored in practice and colloquial registers as enforced in academic and formal registers.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)Your position makes more sense than mine. Thank you.
Tarc
(10,472 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,145 posts)hughee99
(16,113 posts)Is it the author, Katie Silver, or the woman who conducted the study, Dr. Siobhan Weare? Do you really think its MRA activism to suggest that men should be protected by the law from unwanted sex?
Tarc
(10,472 posts)hughee99
(16,113 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,145 posts)Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)You would argue we should no longer treat it as a crime?
Tarc
(10,472 posts)Just applying the guideline you set out for what should be considered a crime.
MineralMan
(146,189 posts)I'm sure it's far more rare than women being raped by men, though. Still, if coercion is involved or consent is not given, it's rape.
SlogginThroughIt
(1,977 posts)MuseRider
(34,057 posts)Any sex that you do not willingly participate in is rape or sexual harassment. I don't care who is doing the forcing, this should be a no brainer. I don't think it happens to men as much but I do not know the statistics and I think the assumption, wrong assumption, is that any man would be thrilled. I mean, for years we heard stuff like that. Time to update. I would be interested in the statistics on this, especially how the police have reacted to this.
Backseat Driver
(4,333 posts)"not tonight dear, I have a headache" behavior for years at a time who purports to the world of being in a consentual "loving" relationship because "it's not all about sex (intercourse)" and who has no reasonable explanation for lack of engagement? Is that not also abuse (power and dominance over) of the female partner that might precipitate anger sufficient for retaliatory forceful means or scenarios of coercion?
Caliman73
(11,690 posts)Not sure what exactly the point of the post is but I am addressing it as if it were serious.
It is a ridiculous argument from any perspective. If there is a lack of sexual intimacy in a relationship that was otherwise engaging in sexual intimacy regularly, then reasons for the lack must be explored. Each partner has the ability to ask, to state their problem with the situation, and to have expectations about how the issue will resolve. If the issue is significant enough that it threatens the relationship, then that has to be addressed and if it should be a factor in the termination of the relationship then again, each partner has the right to make a determination.
It is not abusive to not want to have sex. It is not abusive to want to have sex. It is abusive in either direction to intentionally withhold sex for the purpose of control or punishment. It is rape, or sexual assault in either direction to force or coerce emotionally or any other way, a person to have sex.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)Because if not, damn.
silentEcho
(424 posts)borgesian
(52 posts)Yes, I'm sure this particular form of rape is relatively rare, but that does not excuse it. This isn't very hard, people. Jesus...
KentuckyWoman
(6,666 posts)How is this even a question?
stonecutter357
(12,682 posts)Iggo
(47,486 posts)Not a hard concept.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)And, I might add, quite educational. My first thought on this subject was the stereotypical reaction, but the DUers who explained various scenarios and the article have been quite educational. Im glad I read it!
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)Then, he says, his partner force-fed him Viagra and gagged him.
"There was nothing I could do about it," he says.
I don't see how that's any different than a man putting roofies into a woman's drink.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)The wife was obviously a spousal abuser. Bullying is abuse. Period. I hope he eventually got a divorce.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)I'm not sure what that means exactly. He said he was tied financially to the relationship and didn't feel like he could get out.
I can't imagine being in that sort of situation. I think I would have to tell the authorities, get an attorney, pack up the kids and leave. Still, it was his wife, someone he loved and trusted!
Takket
(21,421 posts)Though I am sure it's rare outside of statutory rape.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)SPOILER ALERT
In the last episode, some of the commanders were suspicious of Commander Lawrence's failure to impregnate any of his handmaid's. So they arranged to "bear witness" to the "ceremony" (i.e., the ritual rape of the handmade). They didn't actually watch but waited in the living room and sent a doctor in to examine June afterward to confirm that the act had been completed.
Lawrence was horrified and didn't want to do it. His wife was completely traumatized. But June talked him into doing it because otherwise they'd end up "on the wall" (i.e., publicly hanged).
June was clearly raped, without question.
But was Commander Lawrence also raped - in that he was forced to have sex against his will under threat is death?
And if he was actually raped, is this a rare instance of a rape victim actually being responsible for his rape since he was the architect of the system that required the rape of handmaids by the commanders (although he felt morally superior to the other commanders because he didn't previously participate in the rapes)?
What say you?