General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsImpeachment Inquiry is underway
It's what I gleaned from today's presser and now, the press is confirming it:
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Full Judiciary Committee presser from today:
https://www.c-span.org/video/?463045-1/house-judiciary-committee-democrats-defend-robert-mueller-plan-continue-investigation
Grasswire2
(13,565 posts)Mr. Evil
(2,839 posts)Bettie
(16,086 posts)I am happy to hear it.
kentuck
(111,076 posts)...that Nadler and his Committee emphasized that in the request to the Court, it was specifically stated that one of their duties is possible impeachment. That phrase was meant to indicate to the Court the seriousness of their request.
Wellstone ruled
(34,661 posts)Once the Senate Intell half ass report hit,you just knew the Speaker would give the nod and she did.
Being around Campaign Politics for some Sixty years,October is Campaign Lift off time. Same for any Congressional Panels to take any legal recourse.
BlueJac
(7,838 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Nadler weeks ago stated that a possible outcome of the hearings is impeachment, positioning the proceedings to fall within the exceptions provided in Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 6E that permits grand jury materials to be released "preliminarily to or in connection with" an impeachment proceeding. And, at the same time, the House authorized Nadler to go straight to court to enforce its rights under 6E without any further approval from Congress.
Pelosi and Nadler have been working a strategy for months while people on the outside have been complaining and attacking them. That strategy is now starting to play out in public view.
They know what they're doing.
kentuck
(111,076 posts)And if they subpoena McGahn and he defies the subpoena, what happens then?
Or if he obeys the subpoena but takes the "Fifth", what happens then?
I expect this effort to follow the same pattern up to now?
Do you believe they will get the Grand Jury material?
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)of Congress. They will be subject to immediate arrest and jail.
I think they will get the grand jury material, unless there's some substantive reason for the court to deny it. But there's no legal basis for the court to deny issuing the materials purely because they haven't opened a formal impeachment proceeding since Nadler has positioned the proceedings to have the exact same standing under Rule 6(e) as an impeachment proceeding.
emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)kentuck
(111,076 posts)A US Attorney? Anybody in Barr's Justice Department? The FBI?
I agree with you that they should get the material.
But, doesn't a lot depend on whether or not they get a knowledgeable judge for the decision? Would it be Emmitt Sullivan?
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)kentuck
(111,076 posts)Excuse my ignorance on the subject.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Last edited Fri Jul 26, 2019, 04:52 PM - Edit history (1)
But they report to and answer to the federal judges.
If a federal judge orders a marshal to make an arrest, the marshal is legally bound to do so. Refusal to do so would be a direct violation of a lawful court order and would put the marshal in direct contempt of court, as well.
If the attorney general ordered a marshal to defy such an order, he too would be indirect contempt of court.
It is unlikely that any marshal would defy a lawful court order issued by a federal judge in order to follow an unlawful order by an executive branch political appointee, even if it's the AG.
kentuck
(111,076 posts)Very interesting!
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)-Donald J. Turd, 2016
kentuck
(111,076 posts)Mob are us.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Nadler said investigation may or may not lead to Impeachment.
I think they might be just trying to kind of "rename" what they were doing? Cuz so many were wondering. Press asked very good questions..they may have not gotten completely straight answers. But good questions
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)The fact is that the House Judiciary Committee is conducting exactly the kind of investigation that people who are pushing for impeachment have been calling for, including going to court to enforce subpoenas and seek the grand jury materials. Who cares what they actually call it? What matters is that it's happening.
elleng
(130,860 posts)murielm99
(30,730 posts)I remember watching the Nixon impeachment hearings. He was not impeached, but it was a possible outcome.
watoos
(7,142 posts)Either Nadler is conducting a House Judiciary hearing which is a legislative hearing, or he is conducting an impeachment hearing which is a judicial hearing. Bill Barr isn't going to ask the court to release the grand jury info to the judiciary committee, he said so during his confirmation hearing. So what Nadler is doing is he is going to the court and asking for the release of the grand jury information to his judiciary committee because his judiciary committee may evolve into an impeachment hearing.
Am I right about that? Maybe the court will give more weight to Nadler's claim that his committee may evolve into an impeachment hearing?
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)And speaking of mumbo jumbo, you keep throwing around terms like "legislative hearing" and the "committee may evolve into an impeachment hearing" that have no meaning.
And it's not a question of "court giving more weight to Nadler's claim." Weight is not an issue. The only question is whether Nadler's request is being made in connection with a proceeding preliminary to impeachment. Nadler and Pelosi have positioned these hearings as more than standard oversight hearings but as a critical part of the House's Article I power and, thus, the Committee has standing to request the materials.
watoos
(7,142 posts)that because Nadler is out of the blue calling his committee an impeachment inquiry, without taking any votes, that Nadler has changed his committee from a legislative committee to a judicial committee by simply changing its name. I don't see it. Nadler was free to request the grand jury information 4 months ago but he didn't because his committee is a legislative committee and doesn't carry as much weight with the court. Now, 4 months later Nadler is going to the court and asking for the grand jury information with the added caveat that his legislative committee may evolve into an impeachment committee. What am I missing? There was no vote in the House to open up an impeachment hearing. Nadler is hoping that by calling his committee an impeachment inquiry that maybe that will sway the court to release the grand jury information. Good for Nadler and Dems, maybe it will work but let's not kid ourselves Dems are not holding impeachment hearings.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)It's obvious that although you really don't understand any of this, you are certain of your superior knowledge and impervious to learning anything and I'm not in the mood right now to waste my time explaining it to you for the umpteenth time only to have you continue arguing nonsense.
Maybe I'll come back to you later...
In the meantime, maybe you can answer those questions you keep ignoring
Test your argument by playing it out as lawyers are trained to do:
1. If the House opened an official impeachment inquiry tomorrow, what would be the next three steps the Judiciary Committee would take to get these people [Hocks, McGahn, Lewandowski, etc.] to testify?
2. How will your "more clout with the courts rule" play into each of these steps to ensure they will testify?
3. What would the timeframe be for each step and how long would it take to get from the first step to their testimony?
4. Compare it to the processes and time-frames for proceeding outside of impeachment and explain how much faster each step would be if done within an impeachment and the legal basis for the expedited timeframe
And please show your work . . .
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)CentralMass
(15,265 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)ElementaryPenguin
(7,800 posts)Turns out Don the Con was right. He IS fucked. (and so will be the GOP Senators that refuse to convict him when all the evidence is paraded before the public!)
saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)Thank you, blogslut
I'll wait, if must be, for the time when I can post "Dancing in the Streets".
elleng
(130,860 posts)crazytown
(7,277 posts)"We are continuing investigations of the president's malfeasances. We will consider what we have to consider -- including whether to recommend articles of impeachment to the House." - Nadler
triron
(21,994 posts)crazytown
(7,277 posts)The Watergate Inquiry did not require authorization to consider whether the conduct of the President constituted impeachable offense(s).
triron
(21,994 posts)elleng
(130,860 posts)Cart before the Horse?
pnwmom
(108,973 posts)lindysalsagal
(20,648 posts)THis is the day, right after Mueller spoke and declared that asshat accepted help form putin.
THIS IS THE DAY!!! YESSSSS!!!!!
murielm99
(30,730 posts)is the long recess. The good ones go home and listen to their constituents.
My local and state Democrats have a lot of activities during August. We also make every effort to connect with our representatives.
Everyone should be doing this. I hope we can all do this in a positive and polite way!
pangaia
(24,324 posts)vlyons
(10,252 posts)This is beyond politics, although for many it is solely about politics. I know, and you know, that Trump and all his enablers are greedy, criminals, who care not a wit for the people of this country, except as we are useful for them to maintain power to accumulate more money. The corruption and rot in our governments, both federal and state, is disgraceful.
This is a time, when it is imperative for us to stand firm for virtue, honesty, and equal justice before the law.
Mersky
(4,980 posts)....or other remedies. Nadler teases apart the definitional qualities of 'inquiry' at 18:30. I highly recommend everyone watch that press conference. I might play it on loop while I work at the house today.
I'll buy physical newspapers this weekend. I want to mark this week, the hearing, this press conference. I need to smell the ink of all the coverage. I want to compare and hold what is being said.
Botany
(70,483 posts)... something might be up the Pentagon was given the job to oversee who gets a security clearance and that
was taken away from the White House by the DoJ yesterday (again internet chatter).
Donald Trump, "I'm fucked."
watoos
(7,142 posts)and asking for the judge to release the grand jury information to his Judiciary committee which is a legislative committee because his judicial committee may in the future turn into an impeachment inquiry.
What am I missing?
Maybe the judge will release the information, if so, why didn't Nadler go to the court 4 months ago and ask for the grand jury information?
triron
(21,994 posts)patphil
(6,164 posts)They want all this to be fresh in the minds of the public during the campaign and up to the 2020 election.
The Democrats know full well that the Republican Senate won't take any action on Articles of Impeachment put forth by the House.
So the Democrats want to have Trump and his enablers tried in the voting booth.
If Articles of Impeachment were produced by the House this year, and the Senate buried them, the American Public would have moved on to other matters long before the election.
They would only remember that Trump was not found guilty, and therefore come to the false conclusion that he was innocent.
If Articles of Impeachment are produced during the primary cycle, then they will be a centerpiece of the Democrat's campaigns.
McTurtle could still bury them, but the time to get the short attention span electorate redirected to another shiny object would be insufficient.
At least that is what I think their plan is.
Patrick Phillips
DallasNE
(7,402 posts)I read a story that claimed they had sources that said the impeachment inquiry would begin when the House returned from the August recess. Turns out that source was reliable. And the timing makes total sense - they needed Mueller's public testimony before making the announcement. This also shows the pundits are clueless as they claimed Mueller's "poor performance" killed off all chances. They were either watching different testimony or they were paying attention to the wrong thing and it turns out to be the latter.
MFGsunny
(2,356 posts)mucifer
(23,522 posts)fescuerescue
(4,448 posts)For sure.
Joe941
(2,848 posts)OMGWTF
(3,949 posts)I also said my entire household (hubs and me) and most of friends and neighbors support one, too. The staffer on the phone repeated that last part to me and seemed pleased when I confirmed it.
crazytown
(7,277 posts)down in Mar-a-Lago
not fooled
(5,801 posts)Thank you Chairman Nadler.
mahatmakanejeeves
(57,378 posts)The House petition enumerates a wide array of powerful grounds for impeachment. Its an impressive document, to put it mildly. If Trump could read, itd drive him crazy. (Not a long drive, to be sure. )
Link to tweet
Heres the petition formally announcing in DC federal court the impeachment inquiry in which the House is now engaged. No ifs ands or buts. No ambiguity. The eagle has taken flight.
https://judiciary.house.gov/sites/democrats.judiciary.house.gov/files/documents/FINAL%20PETITION.pdf
Link to tweet
Hermit-The-Prog
(33,315 posts)The table of contents by itself is juicy!
We do, indeed, have lift-off.
watoos
(7,142 posts)it clearly states that Nadler is requesting the info based on a preliminary investigation into an impeachment inquiry.
This request makes it clear to me that Nadler has not opened up a formal impeachment inquiry, but is doing a preliminary investigation. However, with that said, the court may in fact give Nadler the grand jury info based on the language in 6 whatever.
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)McKeever v. Barr made that clear.
watoos
(7,142 posts)Mimi Rocha, she said the judge should give the grand jury info under 6 (e) to Nadler but it is not a slam dunk like it would be had Nadler opened up a real impeachment inquiry. Those are her words. In other words, as I have been saying, there is a big difference between an impeachment inquiry which is a judicial procedure and Nadler's committee which is a legislative proceeding.
Mimi Rocha stated clearly that it would be a slam dunk for Dems to get the grand jury information, all they have to do is open up an impeachment inquiry.
Why is it so important to get that grand jury info? That's where all of the witness testimony is found. If Dems can't get McGahn to testify, his testimony will be found in that grand jury treasure trove.
Nadler may get the grand jury info under 6 (e) but he may not. The only way for Dems to guarantee getting that info is to open up an impeachment inquiry.
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)I have been saying that here for months as well. And getting lambasted for it, being accused of not supporting Pelosi, not knowing what I'm talking about, etc. Some folks are trying to spin this as some sort of 7 dimensional chess by Pelosi, that this is what she intended to do all along. But what it looks like to me is Nadler had this filing due and had to come up with a plausible argument why they were entitled to the grand jury info, and in light of McKeever v. Barr, the only plausible argument was to say this was for an impeachment inquiry. So they had to call what they were already doing an impeachment inquiry. Fortunately for them (and the country), there does not appear to be any set rules about how the House goes about opening an impeachment inquiry. So I suppose Nadler saying it (that it is "in effect" an impeachment inquiry) in a press conference and as part of a court filing may just work. But you and Mimi are right, it is no slam dunk.
And yes, the grand jury info is CRUCIAL since the witnesses are not responding to the House subpoenas, and it could take well past 2020 to enforce all those subpoenas through the courts.
What gets me is why they didn't go to court months ago and make this claim. We might have gotten the grand jury info by now. One poster here had said that the process for opening an impeachment inquiry was a vote ("The process for opening an inquiry begins with a majority vote in committee..." https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212146677), but that obviously isn't true. Yet some folks kept telling me for months that we can't open an impeachment inquiry because Pelosi doesn't have the votes in the House. Now they're apparently saying we didn't need all those votes, we just needed a microphone to open an impeachment inquiry! LOL
DeminPennswoods
(15,273 posts)Judiciary Dems were holding their presser.
Just sayin'..
spanone
(135,816 posts)Catherine Vincent
(34,488 posts)Cetacea
(7,367 posts)Happy dance
calimary
(81,193 posts)He's filling in on Nicolle Wallace's "Deadline White House" show, and just announced a couple of minutes ago that "NBC News has confirmed."
ailsagirl
(22,893 posts)BadgerMom
(2,770 posts)onetexan
(13,035 posts)DAMN THIS IS GREAT!!
Seriously, this is the day we've all been waiting for, for such a long long time. Let's pray America's soul can be saved.
Skittles
(153,138 posts)I was hoping they would feel the pressure
warmfeet
(3,321 posts)burrowowl
(17,636 posts)watoos
(7,142 posts)it clearly states that he has not opened up formal impeachment proceedings.
https://judiciary.house.gov/sites/democrats.judiciary.house.gov/files/documents/FINAL%20PETITION.pdf
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Nowhere does the petition ever say the Committee isn't conducting a formal investigation. In fact, it argues the exact opposite throughout - in fact the entire point of the petition is that the Judiciary Committee's investigation is a fully viable impeachment investigation under its Article I impeachment powers despite the fact that the House didn't pass a formal resolution since Article I does not make such a resolution a prerequisite for the conduct of a formal impeachment investigation.
Here's the section pertinent to your claim (citations omitted), but if you're going to cite the petition and try to argue about what it says, you should actually read the whole thing.
The House is constitutionally empowered to determine the rules of its own proceedings, including any rules governing impeachment proceedings or any prerequisites for commencing such proceedings. In assessing the Committees intended use of grand jury materials, this Court should afford great weight to the manner in which the House chooses to exercise its sole power of impeachment. Where, as here, the Committee is conducting an investigation whose purposes include determining whether to recommend articles of impeachment, that is more than sufficient for purposes of Rule 6(e)s judicial proceeding exception.
The Committee has repeatedly made clear that it is assessing whether to approve articles of impeachment with respect to the President. Articles of impeachment have been introduced and referred to the Committee during the present Congress, and Chairman Nadler recently confirmed that they are under consideration as part of the Committees investigation. Chairman Nadler has also reiterated the Committees responsibility to determine whether to recommend articles of impeachment against the President, and he has stated that the Committee seeks grand jury information to aid its determination of whether the Committee should recommend articles of impeachment against the President. Moreover, the full House has specifically authorized the Committee to seek disclosure of grand jury materials pursuant to Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 6(e), including Rule 6(e)(3)(E). H. Res. 430. It has therefore expressly ratified this Committees use of the judicial proceeding exception before this Court.
Because the Committee seeks Rule 6(e) materials to further its ongoing investigation and assessment of whether to recommend articles of impeachment, it is in the same posture as the Judiciary Committee was in Haldeman when the court ordered disclosure of the requested records pursuant to Rule 6(e). Here, as in Haldeman, a specially appointed prosecutor has produced extensive evidence of misconduct by a sitting President. And here, as in Haldeman, the Department has adopted the view that a sitting President cannot be indicted while the specially appointed prosecutor has acknowledged the importance of Congresss own constitutional processes for addressing presidential misconduct.
The Committee, just as it did in Haldeman, is investigating whether to recommend articles of impeachment and requires access to Rule 6(e) materials in furtherance of that investigation.
Additionally, although the House has not considered a formal resolution structuring any particular proceedings by this Committee, as it had in Haldeman, such a resolution is not a necessary predicate to consideration of articles of impeachment. Article I of the Constitution states no such requirement. Where, as here, a Member has introduced articles of impeachment and those articles have been referred to the Committee, the Committee is fully empowered to conduct an investigation and exercise any other of its standing authorities. The Committee did precisely that in Hastings: Following a referral by the Judicial Conference of the United States, a Member of the Committee introduced a resolution to impeach Judge Hastings, which was referred to the Committee. The Committee then petitioned the court for access to grand jury materials, and the court determined that Rule 6(e)s judicial proceeding exception authorized disclosure to the Committee. The Committee subsequently recommended articles of impeachment against Judge Hastings. The Committee requested grand jury materials from the district court on July 15, 1987. Both before and after that date, the House authorized various allocations of funds and other authorities for the Committee to conduct its investigation. However, none of these resolutions expressly mentioned impeachment.
Similarly, following the referral of a resolution containing articles of impeachment against Judge Nixon, the Committee requested and received access to grand jury records from a federal district court and ultimately recommended articles of impeachment. As Jeffersons Manual explains, n the House various events have been credited with setting an impeachment in motion, including charges made on the floor; a resolution introduced by a Member and referred to a committee; or facts developed and reported by an investigating committee of the House. Through this process in recent decades, the Committee has conducted investigations involving resolutions of impeachment against Judges Nixon and Hastings, as well as against Judge Harry E. Claiborne, Internal Revenue Service Commissioner John Koskinen, and Justice William O. Douglas.
https://judiciary.house.gov/sites/democrats.judiciary.house.gov/files/documents/FINAL%20PETITION.pdf
I'm not sure whether you are genuinely confused or whether you have some other reason for consistently misstating facts and persistently arguing without any basis. But whatever it is, I'm glad I'm here to set the record straight so that people reading these threads don't come away with a twisted view of the law and process.
watoos
(7,142 posts)you are most likely not intending to mislead people about Nadler opening up an impeachment inquiry but your posts mislead me. I agree with you that Nadler should get the grand jury info released under 6 (e) but his reason under 6 (e) is that he is opening a preliminary investigation that may lead to his opening a real impeachment investigation. Mimi Rocha, a former prosecutor said she feels the judge will grant Nadler's request but it is not a slam dunk like it would be had Nadler opened up a real impeachment hearing. Those are her words not mine, I am not an expert.
Jerry Nadler has not opened up a formal impeachment investigation and many people here at DU believe he has.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)watoos
(7,142 posts)his committee has opened up a de facto impeachment investigation.
This article from Salon explains the situation quite clearly.
https://www.salon.com/2019/07/26/house-judiciary-chairman-says-his-committee-is-pursuing-a-de-facto-impeachment-inquiry-against-trump/
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Nadler probably didn't say that because, as a lawyer and legislator, he knows that the term means nothing for the purpose of defining the nature of an impeachment inquiry.