Boomers Defy Car Makers' Marketing Strategies

[MineralMan]

I was doing a little online research today to try to explain something I noticed in the past month and a half. Back in mid July, my wife and I bought a 2013 Kia Soul. We were completely unaware of the target marketing, which aims at millennials, and hadn't even seen the ubiquitous hip-hop Hamster ads Kia has been using to market this vehicle. We're boomers. We were looking for a low-priced, roomy little car with great gas mileage, and our research led us to that car, which suited us just fine.

Well, when you buy a new car, you start seeing that car wherever you go. It's a psychological thing. I hadn't noticed Kia Souls on the street until I got one. I learned about its marketing strategy, too, after buying it. What I discovered, as I started seeing Souls on the road, along with the other comparable box cars, like the Scion XB and the Nissan Cube, was that about half of the people driving these cars were boomers, just like me.

I had to go pick up the licence plates for mine at the dealership, so I asked the salesperson who sold us ours how the buyers broke down by age. He said that about half of the people buying the Kia Soul were over 50 at his dealership. Interesting.

And yet, Kia, and Scion and Nissan are marketing these cars almost exclusively to a much younger audience. I've been looking at ads and sales campaigns, and it's clear that the marketing effort is almost entirely directed at millennials. So, what's the deal with this, I started wondering? Aren't old farts supposed to want big, luxury cars, with comfy seats and soft suspensions? Well, apparently not as much as the car makers think. Maybe they're missing something here.

So, I took a look at my own reasoning before buying this "millennial" car. I did considerable research before going to the dealer, and we had decided on that car, based on that research. Here's what I had looked for:

1. Low Price - We are working with a lower income these days, and wanted to spend as little as possible for a new car. The Soul is near the bottom of the price range for all cars right now, at about $14,500 for the base model, which we bought.
2. Comfort - The boxy style of this range of cars works well for old farts with creaky knees and hips. Easy entry, and plenty of leg and head room are big pluses.
3. Safety - Checking the safety rating, the Soul came out at the top of its class, with 6 air bags and a well designed passenger compartment structure.
4. Fuel Economy - Everyone wants good gas mileage these days. Gas is expensive. The 27 mpg city/35 mpg highway mileage isn't bad at all.
5. Desired Features - Air Conditioning. It's standard, along with a bunch of other features, like Bluetooth and SiriusXM radio, that are less important to us.
6. Warranty - I'm 67. I'm not going to buy a lot more cars. The 5-year/60,000 mile overall warranty, and the 10 year/100,000 mile power train warranty on the Kia line is about as good as it gets. Most small, inexpensive cars these days have a 3-year/36,000 mile warranty, it seems.
7. Appearance - This was the least important factor of all. That we were looking at box cars means that it wasn't really much of an issue. However, of the three box cars, the Kia is probably the least cubic in design, and has some interesting design features that make it unique. Fit and finish on the Kia is fine for its price range.

So, for this boomer couple, that particular car was a perfect match. Judging from the drivers I've seen in this and similar cars, apparently it's a good fit for many boomers. That being the case, I have to wonder why the auto makers haven't sussed out this trend and aren't marketing to this age group with these cars. It's puzzling. According to statistics, boomers are buying 60+% of all new cars being sold. And yet, the auto makers are pushing almost exclusively for the youthful car buyers, rather than the boomer group. Are the car makers missing a bet with these cars, or are they just figuring that the boomers will find what they want anyhow?

[monmouth]

1. This is really well written and informative MM. I would sugget sending this to AARP. They, and

their readers would get a lot from this. Thanks for posting.

[MineralMan]

10. Thanks for the kind words! nt

[immoderate]

2. Maybe the marketing to youth makes us boomers feel we are "getting over" the target.

It's not for us, but we'll "fool" them.

--imm

[MineralMan]

5. I don't think so, really. I wasn't even aware of their advertising

campaign until after I bought the thing. They apparently aren't advertising on MSNBC or HBO, I guess.

[phantom power]

3. I will throw this theory out there....

car makers(*) aren't necessarily rational -- they're governed by their own preconceptions just like anybody else. I'll never forget GM's CEO a few years ago loudly and proudly proclaiming that (paraphrase) "Americans want big engines, and this noise about trending toward smaller cars/engines is bullshit"

(*) generally speaking, the economic notion of people, corporations, banksters, etc, as rational actors is over-stated

[MineralMan]

7. That could be. But, there are marketing research companies everywhere

out there. Are they not paying attention?

[drm604]

4. I think your last sentence may hold the answer.

Obviously it appeals to boomers even without targeted marketing. So why bother spending money on a group that will find and purchase it anyway? Spend your advertising money on the harder sell instead of on those who will buy it anyway.

Another possibility is that they feel that boomers want to be thought of as youthful and will be more interested in things marketed towards youth. Not many boomers want to be thought of as fuddy-duds and may avoid things that are marketed towards maturity.

[MineralMan]

6. You could be right. I remember how well

the PT Cruiser did with boomers, too. Hell, my 82-year-old mother-in-law drives a PT Cruiser. She likes it, mainly because she can get in and out of it. She's not as fond of the somewhat harsh suspension system, though.

[flamingdem]

8. I hope people don't think you're

hip hop hamster wannabes

[MineralMan]

9. Seems unlikely to me, somehow.

I wonder if the hipsters are going to stay away from the car if so many old geezers are driving them.

[chknltl]

11. Perhaps marketing strategy is right:

Preaching to the choir gains few new choir members. Preaching to non choir members might bring in higher percentage of Kia members. That said, a cool Kia commercial could see a young motorcycle cop pulling up next to a Kia at a stop light. The Kia would have loud boom box music emanating from it (Skrylix Dubstep would work well), and tinted windows. The cop would reach over and knock on the window, the music would stop and the windows would roll down to reveal four well dressed boomers in the Kia having a good time. The cop waves his finger at them motions for them to turn it down them drives off. The boomers laugh as their windows roll up and the music goes back up as they drive off too. As they drive off prices and stats scroll across the screen behind them.

[Lionessa]

15. Love your advert suggestion. That would be great, though I think the music

should be something more recognized by boomers, like Queen perhaps, Alice Cooper????

[chknltl]

25. Sure, but have a listen

Odds are your parents, or even grandparents would not have liked Alice Cooper or Queen. Odds are most of us over fifty types would struggle with lots of todays music. Trust me, todays musicians are every but as talented as Freddie Mercury or Steve Ray Vaughn. Skrylix is a good kid, VERY talented. You might have to stretch your imagination to call what be does 'music' but i find it dang addicting! I still see it as right for this commercial, have a listen: http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plpp&v=WSeNSzJ2-Jw

[chknltl]

32. adding, imagin it as a SuperBowl Commercial done in two or three parts.

That would be part one, the last part would have same music playing as Kia at night pulls up in driveway of home, at end of driveway in front of garage and illuminated by Kia's headlights are four angry teens, arms crossed and frowning obviously wanting THEIR car back! Segments of that song still play in background as these words scrawl across the screen: Did We Mention It Has A Killer Sound System?

[Lionessa]

12. I guess if Kia wants to be stupid, they could change to wooing boomers

Seriously, why would Kia want to spend all that money marketing to those who are likely to buy their product and who are equally likely to not continue buying cars for as long as the young folks are.

You're sort of suggesting, imo, that they advertise similarly to Republicans, only to their base, or those that would choose that type of car regardless of advertising, which you did and many other boomers as well, I'd guess.

They are looking to interest the younger and longer car buying interests in order to set a buyer base into the future. Boomers are not the future for much longer.

[MineralMan]

13. Selling cars is the goal, I assume.

I'm not suggesting that they advertise exclusively to boomers, by any means, and we aren't the base for this type of car. Sure, some will find the car, but many will not. Instead of marketing exclusively to millennials, a small investment in marketing to older buyers might produce good results. No, we're not going to be buying new cars for that much longer, but we're far from dead yet. My 82 year old m-i-l bought a new car two years ago.

Selling cars is the goal. Why not market them to a likely demographic, one that is buying the cars despite the lack of marketing. Millennials are a harder sell than boomers, frankly.

[Lionessa]

14. You, and I imagine many other boomers bought without registering their ads.

So why waste the money wooing you, who either doesn't watch or doesn't pay attention to ads. Other boomers committed to their SUV life styles aren't interested and never will be.

Selling cars is the goal to the most people they can, they didn't need to woo you, they do need to woo youngsters.

It may not make sense to you, but through your own telling, even if they had spent millions on adverts for boomers, you wouldn't have even noticed, hence a waste of money.

[MineralMan]

18. I didn't see the ads because I don't see the media in which they ran.

I'm not really that typical of car shoppers. In fact, I've never bought a new car before. I'm an Internet guy, so that's how I found the car. I didn't even visit a car dealer until I had decided what car to buy. Then, I located the car I wanted in a dealer's inventory, and called them. The next day, I drove it and bought it. My decision-making method isn't really typical of most car buyers in my demographic group.

My actual first step was a Google search for new cars under $15,000. There were 12 models available. I studied all 12, over the course of a single day, and then made a choice.

I didn't see the Kia Soul ads because they don't run in any media I view. I did not even know that model existed. I found it by searching on price range.

Most boomers don't look for stuff that way, based on the ones I know. Car marketing isn't something I watch, since I'm normally not in the market for a car. When I wanted a car, I found one on my own. The Soul has only been available since the 2010 model year. I wasn't even aware of it.

So, suppose Kia wanted to sell more cars to that demographic group. A small marketing effort in media used by that demographic would at least introduce the car as a possibility. It's not as though there is a Kia dealer on every corner. I think there are three in the entire Minneapolis St. Paul metro area.

Beyond that individual model, the company makes a number of other cars. Upselling works. Get them in to look at the cheap car and sell them something else. Everyone uses that strategy. But, if the potential customer doesn't know the maker, hasn't seen a dealer, and hasn't seen any ads, the maker might as well not exist, really.

Frankly, I don't care if Kia sells cars in large numbers, although I'd like to see them succeed well enough to keep the dealerships open. I don't work for them. I don't profit from their sales. I just find it funny that they're not marketing to a demographic that the car seems to suit and which is purchased by people in that demographic. It is an odd thing. That's all. I'd say the same to the Scion and Nissan dealers with the xB and the Cube. Same situation, same opportunity.

Selling cars is the goal. The boomer demographic isn't being targeted much at all by any makers. They buy over 60% of the new cars sold. I'd be interested in them if I built cars. Yup, I would.

[Gormy Cuss]

16. It all depends on whether that dealer's experience is typical.

If MM's dealer's experience is true nationally, then KIA would want to exploit that appeal to Boomers with marketing targeted specifically to them. The sheer number of boomers and their greater purchasing power than millenials override the shorter time in which they will be buying new cars -- and boomers will be buying a lot of new cars for at least the next twenty years.

That doesn't mean that they would abandon the millenial marketing.

[MineralMan]

19. It appears to be the case everywhere.

An Soul owners' forum I joined has a long-running poll that asks for age group. The boomers are the single largest sector in that poll, and boomers are not the most active people on online forums, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm not even hinting that they should drop the marketing to millennials. That would be silly, and the car appeals to that group, too. Some of the actual features are directly targeted at that group.

I don't know. Maybe they're selling every car they can make. If that's the case, then a marketing effort may not be needed. But, there were 2012 models on the lot when I bought my 2013, so, I don't think that's the case. Oddly enough, they were priced identically with the 2013s. Strange.

[Archae]

17. There's a lot less fantasy in the ads.

Used to be all sorts of fantasies in car ads.

Safety is now a big part of TV ads.

[MineralMan]

20. That's true, depending on the target demographic.

Safety isn't that marketable to the millennials, though. Cool, however is. On the other hand, safety's important to parents, and another demographic for the Soul is kids heading off to college. I'm not sure if they're targeting that, either.

[Romulox]

42. This car is marketed with Dancing Hamsters. Not a peep about safety. Probably not a particularly

safe choice.

[MineralMan]

58. Actually, you'd be incorrect.

Go to the KIA website. The car has the top safety rating in its class. I mentioned that in the OP, BTW. I checked. You don't appear to know what you're talking about when it comes to this particular car. It's also gotten great reviews ever since its introduction in 2010. Safety is one of its best features.

[Romulox]

59. The commercial features dancing hamsters. Not safety. Pretend otherwise, but we've all seen it.

Why do you have such trouble admitting plain facts? I think you simply desire the attention.

[HiPointDem]

119. you said the car was probably not particularly safe, & the op said it was top-rated for safety in

its class.

why are you accusing the op of being disingenuous, when *you* are being disingenuous?

[Romulox]

120. Um, nonsense. I said it was not "particularly safe", and it's not. It's AVERAGE, as the link shows

And anyhow, aren't you the poster who SWORE they stuck up for US autoworkers? I believe you are. I guess it's difficult keeping all the characters we play here straight, eh?

[HiPointDem]

125. ha ha. nice edit from "exceptionally". it's best in its class.

i do stick up for us autoworkers. not sure what relevance that has to the facts about safety ratings.

not that your attachment to facts seems exceptionally or particularly close.

not sure what the slam about 'characters' is supposed to mean, either. i'm not playing a character.

[Romulox]

126. I said "exceptionally" in another post, Columbo. Anyhow, what about you being a UAW defender?

Here you are, defending the Kia's honor. Odd.

[Romulox]

137. Lying about what, HiPointDem? That I said "exceptionally" in another post? It's in this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1234710


What is your vendetta that you care so little for the facts? You just attack, knowing full well nobody really cares about the truth.

[Warpy]

178. For me, the Kia barely edged out a Ford Focus

and the reason it did so was shitty management, not the UAW. You see, Kia comes with AC standard, something that's necessary here in the desert southwest. Ford wanted me to take a whole "package" of bullshit I didn't want in order to get it.

If management didn't insist on selling a lot of rubbish people didn't want and stick to things people do want, they'd find it a lot easier to sell their cars.

I would really prefer to buy American and from a union shop. Management didn't really give me that option.

[Romulox]

130. This is factually incorrect. US News ranks the Fit as much better quality. Maybe you have some

tortured definition of "class" such that you are not comparing the two cars. I don't know.

[Romulox]

124. Indeed it WAS you. Remember when you claimed you stuck up for unionized autoworkers? Forget?

Ooops!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=893018

[HiPointDem]

127. and i repeat: in what sense is noting the *facts* about auto safety ratings a failure to 'stick up

for us autoworkers"?

btw, some kias built in us as well:

http://www.kia.com/#/kmmg

[Romulox]

129. What facts? US news rates the reliability as "average". nt

[Romulox]

135. The link is in this thread. You yourself just referred to (albeit, you misinterpreted it.)

Here's some help: the cars with higher numbers are considered "better".

[Romulox]

136. You mangled "the facts" in defense of outsourcing. Then you threw up your hands when proven wrong.

Your agenda is clear.

[HiPointDem]

138. weasel. goodbye.

[Romulox]

141. You have been EXPOSED. Too bad it's hard to keep track of all the masks (some of us!) wear.

[MineralMan]

21. Here are some ownership figures from a Kia Soul owners' forum:

View Poll Results: Which generation are you a member of? (years are estimates & not completely accurate)Voters 1278. You have already voted on this poll
Traditionalist (born between 1915 and 1945) 55 4.30%
Baby Boomers (born between 1946 and 1964 433 33.88%
Generation X (born between 1965 and 1976) 395 30.91%
Millenials/Generation Y (born between 1977 and 1994) 390 30.52%
Generation Z (born between 1995 and 2010) 5 0.39%

[milwaukeelib33]

22. "boomers are buying 60+% of all new cars being sold."

This doesn't surprise me at all. Just about every younger person I know is not in a good position to buy a new car. Their jobs, if they have one, are on shaky ground. Pay has been stagnant. Their mortgages are underwater or in foreclosure killing their credit rating. The price of everything from gas to groceries to clothing to diapers keeps going up.

Older folks, for the most part, were positioned better to absorb this recession. Automakers are stupid to not be advertising more to that demographic.

[snooper2]

23. I notice that too but thought for a different reason, insurance is cheap..

[MineralMan]

24. That's definitely true. Everything's cheaper if you have

a low-priced car.

[randr]

26. Auto companies always market to first time buyers market

People identify with "brand" cars, Chevy or Ford?, and will most likely buy their fav more often than not.
Auto advertising is aim at lifetime customers.

[MineralMan]

28. I wonder if that is even true any longer.

I'm not sure brand loyalty is that big a factor today. I realize that is the common meme, but I'm not seeing it so much as I used to.

[Warpy]

27. The same things led me to a Kia Rio 6 years ago

and it's been a great little car, peppy and fun to drive, plenty of room for my fiber stuff, and easy on gas. I haven't seen too many others on the road around here, though.

Having AC standard was a big deal. Ford wanted me to take a silly "package" of rubbish I didn't want in order to get it.

Boomers have always defied marketing, opting for VWs and Volvos back when GM was pushing muscle cars at them. Comfort and gas mileage were always big concerns, something the Big Three have just never understood.

Most of the smaller cars I see around here including Minis and Smart Cars are being driven by people around my vintage.

[MineralMan]

29. Smart Cars are very rare in Minnesota.

In fact, there's no dealer here for them. I wonder if they do well in the winter here. I thought about that, since they're even cheaper, but there were no dealers in the Twin Cities, so we scratched that car immediately.

Lots of Minis around, though, and I'm seeing a few Fiat 500s here and there.

[Fumesucker]

63. Smart cars are rear engine and rear wheel drive..

Probably not as good in the snow as front engine front wheel drive but not as bad as front engine rwd..

There is an issue with the drive train that might limit driveability in the snow, the Smart actually has a regular clutch but it's not controlled by the driver but rather by computer so you can't really feather it..

[MineralMan]

89. That makes sense.

The short wheelbase and small tires might be another issue for the Smart car in snow.

[Warpy]

132. Well, to hell with that

One of the reasons I insist on standard shift out here is black ice. I hit a patch of that, I ease up on the clutch and often that's enough to get me through it without throwing the car into a skid (and into a guardrail or over a cliff).

[LibertyLover]

30. I know what you mean -

I'm a boomer and I drive a Mini Cooper S. I'm not the market Mini was thinking of for that car, but that's ok with me. Next car we buy will hopefully be the Mini Countryman. If not, then it will be one of the roomy boxes, like the Soul or the Scion so that we can transport the dogs in it. I don't want a big, squishy soft, lumbering car. I need something with good gas mileage, some pep and room. Oh, and now we need 4 doors because the 10 year old daughter is really getting tired of the 2 door thing.

[meaculpa2011]

34. No mention in the OP about performance and handling.

I'd be very happy with the Mini, especially now that my coaching days are over.

The Kia Soul?

I drove one a few months ago and the performance and handling are decidedly sub-par.

Not for me.

My next car will be a convertible with a 5 speed. My 19 year old daughter will have to wait 'til I'm dead to get the keys.

[MineralMan]

35. With a 1.6 liter engine, I don't expect

a lot. Still, it hits freeway speed easily from every onramp I've been on, and if you keep the RPMs up above 3500 (redline is 6500) it accelerates briskly enough. Mine has a 6-speed manual transmission, and 3rd gear doesn't hit the redline until you're going over 80, so it's a great gear for passing, etc. The top two gears are overdrive gears, and work great for cruising, but you're going to shift to 4th on the freeway if you need to speed up. IN 4th, you can hit 100 mpg before the redline.

Handling? Well, it's a tall box, so it's not something you want to treat like the Mini, but it's just fine. It includes traction control, ABS, and stability control, standard, and seems just fine if you push it. It's an understeering car, handling-wise, but it's not designed to be tossed around. I don't drive that way anyhow.

By the way, I owned a 1959 BMC Mini in the late 60s. Cool car. I loved it. It had an MG 1100 engine, instead of the 850cc stock engine. Maximum fun, minimum comfort. I sold it to buy a 1959 bugeye Sprite. More fun, even than the Mini. I love old British small displacement cars.

[Romulox]

45. Your car is an *automatic*. It doesn't "hit the redline", unless it malfunctioning. Badly. nt

[MineralMan]

49. Nope. 6-speed manual. Just as I said in the post above.

I haven't had it over 6000 RPM, though, and won't.

You don't read very well, apparently. Here's the quote: "Mine has a 6-speed manual transmission"

You know. Clutch and everything. The manual transmission is standard with the base model and 1.6L engine. A 6-speed automatic is optional. I didn't want that with such a small engine.

[Romulox]

50. My mistake. You seemed so scattered on the other facts of the purchase... nt

[MineralMan]

51. Reading is FUNdamental. nt

[Romulox]

54. So is supporting American Workers. Wonder why that's so tough for you? And you're PROUD of it! nt

[A HERETIC I AM]

85. THERE IT IS!

That train's never late!

[LanternWaste]

151. Which is why people should listen only to American music, and forgo that foreign stuff.

Which is why people should listen only to American music, and forgo that foreign stuff.

[Romulox]

153. That's called a "strawman argument", since only you have made such an argument. nt

[LanternWaste]

156. Buy American, my friend. Buy American.

Buy American, my friend. Buy American.

[LanternWaste]

149. A back-handed admission.

A back-handed admission-- I've only heard of those, never saw one until your post. Bemusing.

[Romulox]

154. And what do you call what YOU are doing? Piling on into somebody else's argument? There MUST

be some nasty name for it, eh?

[LanternWaste]

157. Bemused Observer.

"be some nasty name for it..."

Bemused Observer.

[Romulox]

158. I think we can both agree on the "bemused" part. It still doesn't explain your motivation for

piling on--that's based on the need to settle some past score, not confusion.

[LanternWaste]

159. 1992 NFC Championship game-- only score I'm aware of.

1992 NFC Championship game-- only score I'm aware of.

Infer any motivation that better validates your guess... it's human nature, and it allows us to feel better about ourselves.

[brooklynite]

31. Marketers have traditionally ignored boomers in almost all shopping categories

The working assumption is that they're "set in their ways" when it comes to brand choices.

[MineralMan]

37. That was true of my parent's generation.

They're in their 80s now. My parents drive a Ford Crown Vic, and my dad, who is 88, is pissed that they quit making them.

It's not true of boomers. Buncha damn hippies, anyhow!

[We are Devo]

183. I want my '66 Bug back!

Or my squareback, or my Thing...

[Freddie]

181. We boomers are "done" being courted by advertising

We're past the sell-by date.
My brother works in radio and it's a given that advertisers only gear toward the coveted 18-34 group and somewhat less to 35-50. After 50, they say, we're set in our buying habits and there's no point trying to change us.
Notice how there's less and less commercial radio that appeals to our age and older? That's why.

[MicaelS]

33. The car companies believe boomers have money..

Thus the boomers would not be interested in a cheaper car that is considered "entry level". Entry level cars are for those that don't have much money, typically the young. As you earn more, you are "expected to move up" to a better, i.e. more expensive, car. Thus they target marketing for small inexpensive cars to the young.

A few years ago, I went looking at cars, and looked at the Ford Focus. At the time, I was 50, and the saleswoman, looked at me, and said; "Why are you interested in the Focus? That's an entry level car." I told her I wanted a small car that got good fuel economy, and I didn't want to spend over $20,000. She looked at me like she could not believe what I said.

[MineralMan]

36. Yah, well, the economy put an end to that nonsense for a helluva lot of

boomers. These days, the dealers show no surprise. When I told the salesman over the phone I wanted to test drive a Base Soul the next morning, he just said, "Good choice." And I had told him that I was an old fart.

I only bought a new car because I was getting weary of making repairs on the old ones I've been driving all my life. I'm too old to roll around under a car in the driveway to replace the exhaust system, which I had just done on my 1991 Volvo wagon. That was the last straw. So, we bought a new car with a warranty. First one ever for me.

Dealers would obviously like to sell you the most expensive car they can manage to sell you, and one with the most options. But, they'll sell you the other one, if you like. Kia's the first dealer I found that was actively ordering Base trim models for the lot. The salesman said that they sold within a week, every time. Try to find a base model for any other car brand. They're like hen's teeth.

[MicaelS]

38. I quit working on cars too.

I don't even change the oil any more. I bought an extended warranty, and even thought it cost money, it gives me piece of mind.

[MineralMan]

40. Buncha old geezers. That's what we are.

[Romulox]

41. I thought it was an "emergency!" and you simply didn't have time to try US made cars. Story change!

[MineralMan]

46. It was. I bought it a day after deciding to. My Volvo was still dead

in the driveway. We had to borrow my m-i-l's car to get to the dealer. American cars? There was nothing available, just as I said. The closest thing would have been a Ford Fiesta hatchback. It's made in Mexico. No American car matched the price or the warranty. There was nothing even close at any dealer in my area. End of the 2012 model year, and not a base trim model anywhere in town.

Same story. Same process. I bought the best car for my needs. I always buy what I need as closely as possible.

The Volvo's running fine now. It's going to be our Winter Beater.

Thanks for your continuing interest in my activities, Romulox.

[Romulox]

48. Was the Volvo *also* an emergency purchase? Why not just admit your history of not supporting US

workers? It's more honest.

[MineralMan]

53. The other car in my driveway was a 1999 GMC Jimmy.

It died, leaving me just the Volvo. I've had American cars, Italian Cars, Swedish Cars, British Cars, a Citroen, and even a German-made Messerschmidt and an NSU. I've had lots of cars, all used, until this one. Thanks again for your interest in my automotive history.

[Romulox]

56. I wouldn't have a clue what you drive, except for your numerous vanity posts on the subject.

How o how does all of DU know about your driving habits????

Oh, that's right. You've started half a dozen threads on the subject, you shrinking violet, you.

[MineralMan]

60. You needn't read them, if they don't appeal to you.

Bye, now. I won't be replying further to you in this thread.

[Romulox]

61. I am doing exactly what I chose: namely, to challenge your ANTI LABOR attitudes.

You have enough trouble taking care of yourself--don't worry about me!

I won't be replying further to you in this thread.

That's fine--I will still call you out every chance I get, regardless of your responsiveness to me.

[milwaukeelib33]

65. It is disappointing

The OP put together a seven point list of desirable attributes and union made didn't make it. Would have it been #8? Lower? Even on the radar screen?

Clearly, it's not just the OP though. While very unscientific, far more often than not when I spot a vehicle sporting progressive bumper stickers it's foreign, non-union made. It doesn't make sense to me. I know the line of what is American has been blurred when Focuses are mfg'ed in Mexico and Subarus in Indiana with parts made gawd knows where. But, we know our union brothers and sisters are screwing 'em together at the Big 3 assembly plants- not so with BMWs from SC, or Hondas from OH.

We've got to realize we're in this together. I've supported our public schools and our unionized teaching professionals, but must admit that support waivers when I pass the parking lot filled mostly with foreign makes.

[Romulox]

67. Awesome post. Small correction though, Ford Focus is UAW made in Wayne, Michigan.

And the poster in question is an "ex" Free Republic user. He probably felt like a radical, over there. Here, he is definitely just right-of-center.

[milwaukeelib33]

69. I stand corrected

A friend bought one a several years back. I think I remember him telling at the time they may have been running 2 assembly plants because of high demand- one in the US and the other in Mexico. When he found out, he ran his VIN and was bummed his was from Mexico. That was quite some time ago so I could be wrong or things have changed.

All I know is my driveway is occupied with Janesville, WI and Belvedire, IL union assembled product.

[Romulox]

73. You may be thinking of the Fusion, which is made in Hermisillo, Mexico. Focus has been made in USA

since its introduction here. Of course, it is a "world car" that is also made in other markets for sale there.

[milwaukeelib33]

76. The new Focus is one sharp looking vehicle

I'd take one any day over the bland looking Civic, Corolla, or anything in the compact segment for that matter. 5-door hatch with a row-your-own trans please!

[FarCenter]

77. No one on the east coast cares what cars look like any more

They are a necessary means of transportation. But that is all.

Midwesterners still actually wash and wax cars, but you are out of step with the rest of the country.

(but now that you mention it, who thought that that ugly grill treatment was attractive? Must have been the idiot that came up with the Lincoln-Mercury "waterfall". )

[milwaukeelib33]

87. Sorry to hear that

Spice is the variety of life, as they say.

There are many factors on what vehicle to choose. But, if you decide a small car with good FE is what you want the market is filled with them(within a couple MPG's or a few hundred dollars). Why shouldn't styling be a factor at that point? You must live a very boring life to choose an appliance when equivalent, much better looking options, or union made options are available. Sorry for you.

[Union Scribe]

93. Unsurprising poster is unsurprising. nt

[Romulox]

95. Embarrassed KIA owner spotted! Sorry, but people DO judge you for driving it. nt

[FarCenter]

70. Is there a union made equivalent to the Scion xB, Nissan Cube, and Kia Soul?

[Romulox]

71. Um, yes. They are all economy cars. nt

[NickB79]

82. Care to list one by name that you think is comparable?

For example, MineralMan listed the boxy shape as a clear selling feature:

2. Comfort - The boxy style of this range of cars works well for old farts with creaky knees and hips. Easy entry, and plenty of leg and head room are big pluses.

I'm all ears to hear about a US-made car from a union factory that's a box on wheels.

[TexasBushwhacker]

84. I'm a boomer with a Scion xB

The boxy cars are all imports. I don't really see an American made car that's comparable. You could go with a small SUV or crossover for a similar ride, but they cost more and get worse gas mileage, except for the Ford Escape Hybrid. One disadvantage for the boxy cars though is wind noise at high speeds. They aren't very aerodynamic. I love mine though.

[milwaukeelib33]

86. Sure, I will...

The OP wasn't focused on the trendy, youth focused boxy styling, just the spaciousness it afforded. Along with an easy ingress/egress seat level for those it matters to. The Dodge Caliber would fit those criteria. The Ford Transit and the new C-Max would as well. The Pontiac Vibe, while discontinued could still be had as a certified pre-owned with good warranty is another example.

Supporting only some unions is a choice acceptable to many. The availability of product is there. Why no support is mind-boggling.

[NickB79]

97. Of what you listed, I'd only agree with the Ford Transit as comparable

I've sat in a Caliber and a Matrix (the same vehicle as the Vibe), and neither have the same high headroom and ease of getting into and out of that the boxier models give. And yes, he was focused at least partly on the boxy styling because the general spaciousness translates specifically into a tall vehicle with lots of headroom that allows for limited amounts of bending and flexing of joints. That is clear from what he wrote:

2. Comfort - The boxy style of this range of cars works well for old farts with creaky knees and hips. Easy entry, and plenty of leg and head room are big pluses.

The Ford Transit is a nice vehicle and comes closest to the boxy Scions, Nissans, and Kias, but I have never seen one driven by a private owner. I'm sure they exist, but virtually all I've seen are used by companies, though I did try to convince my wife to buy one The C-Max has serious potential, but it isn't even out in stores yet. Also, both cost approximately $10,000 more than any of the boxy econocars which puts them in the next catagory up from economy-class vehicles.

[bongbong]

185. Get a used Aztek

Besides being boxy with loads of headroom, extra bonuses:

1) you won't see yourself going down the road, probably ever
2) you can imagine you're Walter White (at least before he went to the Dark Side, car-wise, this season)

[meaculpa2011]

43. About a week after I replaced...

the exhaust system on my 1995 BMW 525, the gas tank dropped.

Back under the car to replace the mounting straps.

I still enjoy making repairs. How much longer?

I bought it new in 1994 and it was the best purchase I ever made. Still going strong and a joy to drive, even though parts fall off of it periodically.

[Romulox]

39. Car makers make little money on cars like the Soul. The idea is to hook someone on a brand while

young.

Unless you're planning on buying a bigger, better Hyundai in the next couple years, you don't figure into this strategy.

[MineralMan]

44. Dealers make the money on them over time

in the service bays. You're right, the manufacturers don't like them so much. One thing's certain, there's not much bargaining room when you buy them, especially a base model. They had a couple of incentives that I met, but the biggest one was a $750 discount if you had graduated from college within the past two years. My 1972 BA didn't do much good there. They also had a military and veteran's discount of $500, plus a $500 discount for Kia financing. With my credit score, I got the lowest APR being offered. Those paid the sales tax and licence fees. I got out the door at $14,000. Not bad. The whole sale took an hour and a half, and we drove home.

[Romulox]

47. I thought the whole point of buying a less reliable car was the extended warranty? nt

[MineralMan]

55. What less reliable car? As near as I can tell, Kias have been very

reliable. I know a guy with a 2000 Kia Sephia, he's had since it was new. No problems. Long warranties are a good thing, though.

[Romulox]

57. Um, no. Kias are not exceptionally reliable. Did you even DO any research?

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Kia_Soul/Reliability/

[NickB79]

79. Your own link ranks it #9 out of 41 models of affordable small cars

Reliability-wise, the only US car that beats it is the Ford Focus.

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/rankings/Affordable-Small-Cars/

It appears that the Soul is actually pretty damn good in the rankings.

[FarCenter]

81. So have they sorted our the problems with the Focus' Powershift transmission?

The 6-speed dry dual-clutch automated manual?

[Romulox]

91. US News feels the Focus is a far better car than the KIA SOUL. I know it's hard to swallow. nt

[Romulox]

90. You must've missed the two USA made Chevies above the KIA, too. Odd. nt

[NickB79]

96. No, I didn't. You missed where I said "reliability-wise" in my previous post

Notice how there are seperate listings for each vehicle for overall, performance, safety, exterior, interior and reliability? And how I said only the Focus is a US-made car that beats the Kia in reliability?

The two USA-made Chevies both get the SAME reliability rating as the Kia, at 3 of 5 circles.

Equaling the Kia Soul is not beating the Kia Soul, wouldn't you agree?

[Romulox]

100. Nonsense. YOU claimed the car ranked 9 out of 41. The Chevrolet Cruze is 6 on that list, and Sonic

is 5.

I understand the game you're trying to play, by changing the criteria for this post, you're trying to compare apples to oranges.

But, as YOU pointed out, the Soul was 9 on that list. Chevy Cruze was 6, and Sonic 5. If you misspoke by mentioning the ranking, then feel free to clarify.

[NickB79]

109. Again, you do realize the different criteria listed on YOUR OWN LINK, right?

Overall ranking, the Kia ranks at #9 out of 41 models listed. That's not a claim, that's what YOUR OWN LINK shows: http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/rankings/Affordable-Small-Cars/

And yes, I did point out it scored at #9 overall, but my next sentence expanded upon that by stating it's RELIABILITY score was tied with all US-made cars except the Focus:

Reliability-wise, the only US car that beats it is the Ford Focus.

The OVERALL ranking of the Cruze was #6, with the breakdown as follows:

Overall: 8.5
Performance: 8.5
Exterior: 7.3
Interior: 8.5
Safety: 9.8
Reliability: Three of Five

The OVERALL ranking of the Sonic was #5, with the breakdown as follows:

Overall: 8.6
Performance: 8.4
Exterior: 8.0
Interior: 8.8
Safety: 9.8
Reliability: Three of Five

The OVERALL ranking of the Kia Soul was #9, with the breakdown as follows:

Overall: 8.3
Performance: 7.3
Exterior: 8.6
Interior: 8.6
Safety: 9.4
Reliability: Three of Five

As you can see, the Kia wins on Exterior and Interior scoring, the Cruze and Sonic win on Safety and Performance scoring, and ALL ARE TIED for reliability.

I'm not the one comparing apples to oranges, because my discussion so far in this thread with you was in regard to the RELIABILITY scoring of the cars, and this was only because you claimed the Kia had a less than stellar reliability score with no evidence to back up your claim. I'm not the one trying to change any criteria; you are.

Perhaps you really do need a refresher on reading comprehension

[Romulox]

110. I understand perfectly. YOU misspoke when you mentioned "9 out of 41", and now want to move

the goalposts.

And yes, I did point out it scored at #9 overall, but my next sentence expanded upon that by stating it's RELIABILITY score was tied with all US-made cars except the Focus:

You were responding to my comment about RELIABILITY. Like I said, you must've misspoke, because you can't have it both ways.

[NickB79]

117. Nothing was misspoken

I stated several FACTS from your own link. It is a FACT that the Soul was rated 9 out of 41 models listed for overall quality, and also a FACT that only one US-made car beat in in reliability standards. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the ones who compiled the list.

You know, I honestly thought MineralMan was being a bit rude at first when he chided you on your reading comprehension (or lack thereof), but now I'm pretty sure he's onto something.

And BTW, would it totally blow your mind to know I'm a Teamster?

[Romulox]

142. Then it was a purposeful attempt to compare apples to oranges. Several US cars ranked higher

on the list you cite.

[Romulox]

144. Here's your confusion: the "9 out of 41" was not for "overall quality". It was an overall ranking,

considering all factors, only one of which was reliability.

"Car Rankings: Affordable Small Cars" (not "overall quality".)

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/rankings/Affordable-Small-Cars/

[exboyfil]

64. I used the GM Credit Card for my last three purchases

at $3,500 rebate. Stacked additional rebates on top of that. Also used a guarantee pull or drag to price my wife's very beat up Ford Escort on the last purchase. Got into my HHR for about $12K in 2009.

I too buy entry level cars (started with Chevy Cavalier in 1985 after getting out of college, Chevy Lumina around 1993 (only non-entry), Ford Escort Wagon (around 1997), Chevy Cavalier (2002), and Chevy HHR(2009). I was probably most disapointed in the Chevy Lumina and probably did not do a good job in trade on that one. The 1985 Cavalier I drove until the wheels fell off. The 1997 Escort was in a couple of accidents with body work that was not repaired when I traded it for the HHR. I absolutely love my 2002 Cavalier - I have put hardly any dollars in repair (just basic maintenance). The 2009 HHR has done ok so far, but I do not like the power windows/locks and expect to pay to repair them eventually. The Ford was a nice car but spent quite a bit on repairs (radiator twice!! and clutch).

I am 49 next month, and I hope to make only one to two more car purchases before retirement. We will definitely go down to one car - lightly used - when I retire. Kids will be like me and not get cars until they graduate college and start earning money to pay for them.

I think the U.S. manufactures are terrified in the baby boomer trend because their margains suck on small entry level cars. I just shake my head at $30-$50K for a car - I will never pay that amount.

[Romulox]

52. BTW, does anyone *really* think another thread about this is necessary? You don't support US workers

We get it.

[pintobean]

163. Just trying to rub some noses in it

[LeftyMom]

62. Gen Y, meanwhile, is notoriously disinterested in cars.

I live in a fairly car-centric city with perfectly awful public transportation, and I know a ton of young people who don't have a car, or have a car they barely ever drive. A fair number of people I know got a car because they absolutely had to and seem sort of resentful of it. They tend to get the most efficient car they can afford and keep it nigh unto forever, even if they can afford something much nicer.

I'm the polar opposite of that trend.

[sendero]

66. I can't remember..

... the last time I saw a car ad aimed at boomers. Perhaps a Mercedes or BMW ad.

It doesn't seem like we are a preferred demographic. Just as well, I don't buy anything based on an ad, at the very most it might make me look at something I didn't know about.

[FarCenter]

68. The "car culture" is dead

People want a box with wheels that they can get into, go somewhere, and come back in relative comfort at minimum cost.

All this styling, design, and lifestyle BS is over.

No one washes and waxes their car anymore, and if their is a modest dent or scratch that doesn't affect functionality or cause rust problems, who cares.

[Ikonoklast]

128. Your personal experiences and opinions are just that.

I see people washing and waxing their cars in my neighborhood all the time, that is part of vehicular maintenance, not just vanity.

The local car washes do a brisk business, as do the three detail shops in town.

Their is a large car show every Saturday night that takes over an entire shopping center in my town, and has hundreds of participants with all types of vehicles, from the very oldest to the very newest.

But no one does that anymore...not.

[LiberalAndProud]

72. Are boomers as likely to be swayed by marketing?

You applied your criteria and made a choice. Was the advertizing even a factor? Firms will aim the propaganda at those most apt to be swayed by it, I would think.

[WCGreen]

75. Bought a Kia three years ago and I love it...

Bought a stick and it has a little git up and go.

i don't drive that much anymore so I don't remember which Kia it is. I think it's two up on the Soul but it wasn't that expensive. We paid 15,500, I think...

Mrs WCGreen loves it and we will probably buy another one in a year of two as we will both be retired.

Whenever we need a bigger car, like for a long driving vacation, we rent a SUV. Couldn't afford the up keep or even the gas for more than a week or two.

One fill up every ten days is a real saver.

[Tikki]

78. Some years back the PT Cruiser was the go to car for the Seniors....

around my neck of the woods. Now it is the Prius, but it is more expensive than the Soul, for sure.

Tikki

[Lex]

80. I'm in my 40's and have PT with almost a 100k on it and still no problems.

I bought it practically new. I haven't have had a car payment in years and years. Sigh. I suppose I'll be looking for something in the next year or two.

[kaiden]

83. Same with us when we bought a 2006 Honda Element.

We are boomers, live on three acres in the foothills southwest of Denver -- thought it'd be a great car in which to haul goats and hay. It has been wonderful for us. We don't drive it wildly in the woods -- we drive it to work in Denver. Sadly, in 2011, Honda stopped making the Element because Honda's target marketing was for the 20-somethings who liked to camp, not old folks like us. It's too bad, really, because the Element has been the best car we've ever owned.

[Romulox]

94. The Honda Element isn't capable of off-roading. It's merely designed to LOOK like a Jeep. nt

[IDemo]

88. I'm a boomer who hasn't bought a car in nearly 20 years

The '93 has only 63k miles and is running just fine. I could actually afford a fairly nice new vehicle now but won't be purchasing one, American made or foreign, any time in the foreseeable future.

[Romulox]

92. I think this thread backfired. The OP wanted to be told how "hip" he is for hating US workers. nt

[MineralMan]

98. American-Made Cars I Have Owned

These are not in chronological order. Keep in mind that I was born in 1945.

1953 Chrysler New Yorker
1959 Rambler Station Wagon
1957 Studebaker Lark
1964 Rambler Station Wagon
1954 International Pickup
1953 Chevy Pickup
1941 Chevy Master Deluxe
1960 Ford Falcon Station Wagon
1960 Corvair
196? International Scout Postal Delivery Vehicle
1967 Ford Pickup
1964 Chevy Impala
198? Ford Escort
1984 Ford Ranger Pickup
1989 Plymouth Voyager
1993 Chevy Lumina APV Minivan
1993 Plymouth Colt
1982 Ford Fiesta (very briefly. its transmission broke on I-5, and I abandoned it. Not made in the USA, anyhow.)
1984 Buick Station Wagon
1999 GMC Jimmy SUV
1987 GMC 24' Moving Van (ex-UHaul)


All of these cars, except the Fiesta and the Jimmy, were running when I bought them and running when I sold them.

[Romulox]

102. Rightwing websites in which you've amassed several thousand posts? nt

[MineralMan]

99. Imported Cars I Have Owned

Again, not necessarily in chronological order:

1958 Morris Minor
1964 MG Midget
1964 Hillman Super Minx
1959 BMC Mini
1959 Austin Healey Sprite
1958 Triumph (Standard) 10
1958 Fiat 600
1959 Volvo 544 (I've had two of those)
1967 Volvo Wagon
1954 Messerschmidt (Never ran)
1962 NSU Prinz
1963 Citroen 2CV
1965 Saab 93 (2-stroke engine)
1991 Volvo 740 Wagon

[Romulox]

101. Unnecessary biographical information you have shared?

[MineralMan]

104. Nope. 60% of the cars I've owned were American cars.

You're the one who brought up my car ownership habits, so there's a list for you. It was interesting to try to remember them all, and it called up individual memories of each one. If I wanted to, I could tell each car's story. I think that's true for a lot of people. Cars are markers in our lives.

[Romulox]

106. Not a man of your word, are you? " Bye, now. I won't be replying further to you in this thread."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1234729

[Romulox]

107. Anyhow, who are you trying to impress? What are you trying to prove? American workers are hurting

RIGHT NOW, and you started three or four threads gloating about not supporting them.

You know it's offensive, and you love the attention.

[pintobean]

165. 100% of the cars I've owned were American cars

Yes, they've all brought back memories. As, I'm sure they've provided better memories for the people who built them. Not to mention keeping more of my money in our economy.

[Courtesy Flush]

103. Excuse my ignorance, but what's a "millennial"?

Wouldn't they be 12 years old?

[MineralMan]

105. I think it refers to people who came of age around the

turn of the millennium, or something like that. Generation Y is another name for them, I believe.

[ellenfl]

108. kick for later. eom

[DonCoquixote]

111. The Kia and others

were the first to offer the Box design, a gas sipper that can still haul groceries. The marketing twoards young hipsters was moot, especially as said young hipsters cannot AFFORD NEW CARS! However, thanks to Obama taking over Gm for a bit, now we have the Volts, the Cruzes the frod Fiestas and other ameircan made, good cars. Which will be bought by boomers, as kids still cannot afford a new car.

[MineralMan]

112. The Cruze starts at $3000 more, the Fiesta is made in Mexico,

and the Volt is completely out of the price range.

I sat in a Fiesta. Too small and low for this old fart. I can't afford a Cruze or a Volt.

[BOG PERSON]

113. are Kia Souls the cars with the LMFAO hamster commercials?

why would the automakers want to turn a decent-sounding car into an obnoxious + desperate appeal to the youth demographic? i will never understand the logic of advertising.

[MineralMan]

115. They are. I hadn't seen the ads until after I bought mine.

I guess they don't run them on MSNBC. Someone told me about them, so I went to YouTube. I understand there's a new hamster ad for the 2013 model, which is almost unchanged from the 2012 model.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

114. The conventional wisdom in marketing is that you appeal to 18-34-year-olds

That has not changed since the days when we Boomers were that age.
The idea is that you have to capture people when they're just starting out as adult consumers.

However, that conventional wisdom ignores the fact that 1) People don't vanish when they turn 35, and 2) Many older people have more money than most young people.

Land's End learned something this year. They discontinued some of the lines that appeal mostly to middle-aged people and introduced their new "Starfish" line of casual clothing, aimed at younger buyers. The problem is that the Starfish line is designed for slender young women and looks awful on us less shapely Boomers. Besides, Land's End has always been kind of a middle-aged store. (I wouldn't have been caught dead in it when I was in my twenties.)

Now it seems that they have attracted some younger customers with the Starfish line, but they sure made their older customers angry. This fall, they quietly brought back some of their traditional bestsellers. I'm glad. I would have been real upset if they had discontinued the Sport Knit Corduroys, which are my winter uniform.

[MineralMan]

118. My wife buys a lot of clothing from Lands End.

She's been disappointed lately with the fit. I have some Lands End T-shirts, and like them fine, but I don't usually buy clothes mail order. My favorite Lands End trick is to go to the local Sears store at the end of a particular season and stock up on clearance priced stuff. Sometimes, the prices are absolutely amazing. I have a bunch of long-sleeved corduroy shirts I found at one of those sales for just $5 apiece. Amazingly good stuff at a thrift store price.

Yes, marketing seems to be aimed at a young demographic, and seems to ignore everyone else. It's odd.

[FarCenter]

162. Lands End is part of Sears/Kmart run by Eddie Lampert

Stopped buying Lands End shortly after they were acquired by Sears. They are no longer quality clothes from Dodgeville, WI.

http://money.cnn.com/2002/05/13/news/deals/sears/index.htm

The Kmart-Sears deal
http://money.cnn.com/2004/11/17/news/fortune500/sears_kmart/

Insult And Injury: Eddie Lampert's Control Of Sears Gets It Booted From S&P 500
http://www.forbes.com/sites/abrambrown/2012/08/30/insult-and-injury-eddie-lamperts-control-of-sears-get-it-booted-from-sp-500/

[JVS]

116. There is an old saying that you can sell an old man a young man's car but you can't...

sell a young man an old man's car.

[MineralMan]

122. That makes sense.

Hence, the death of the Oldsmobile and other brands once identified with older customers. Interesting.

[Jack Sprat]

121. Definitely marketed to younger crowd I guess,

but it sounds like you're pleased with your purchase and of the three mentioned in it's class, I like the looks of the Kia Soul far better.

I am anxious to see the 2013 Ford C-Max boasting a forecasted 47/47 EPA MPG. It sounds too good to be real. We'll see in due time.

[MineralMan]

123. That wasn't available when I needed a car, so I haven't looked at it.

But it looks like it will be priced about $10K more than we could have afforded anyhow. A lot of the vehicles mentioned by some posters were out of our price window, which was a very narrow one. Others aren't comfortable for this tall old guy. There are many factors. We checked out the Kia Rio hatchback, but the low seating and cramped interior space didn't work for us, even though it was $1000 less in price. The same was true for the other subcompacts we considered. Reviews pointed out their limited space, and that wasn't what we were looking for. The actual number of cars we would have considered was very, very small. Worse, the base models that fit our price range were not available at the end of the 2012 model year. I did a lot of research in the day before we bought. We were stuck with no running car, so we had to act immediately.

Yeah, we're happy with the Soul. It works out exactly right for our needs.

[Jack Sprat]

139. Is it comfortable for you as a tall guy?

It sounds like it has the leg room and space for your stature. How comfortable is it to ride in and handle in the city and on the highway on trips? Thanks.

[MineralMan]

146. It is. The driver's position is excellent, and the steering wheel is

adjustable for tilt and length. The base model has manual seat controls, but the seats are very comfortable and supportive. I can put my hands on my hips in the driver's seat and not touch the door or the passenger, and there's about 10" of headroom in the front seats. The rear seats, also have plenty of legroom, even with the driver's seat well back on its tracks.

In city driving, it's quite nimble, and the gear ratios in the lower four gears are excellent for city driving. Not much body lean in cornering. The suspension's a little harsh, and there is definitely some suspension noise on crappy streets, but that's true with all of the small cars. On the freeway, 5th and 6th gears are overdrive ratios. At 70, the 1.6 liter engine is running about 3400 RPM. Mine is a manual transmission, but the automatic is also a 6-speed, with similar ratios. 4th gear is a good acceleration gear, with a top speed of around 100 mph, so you're not really thrashing the engine, but it is in its best torque band above 60 mph. No cruise control is available for the manual transmission. Clutch action is very smooth and progressive, and not at all grabby or sudden in its engagement. The shifter isn't quite as precise as I'd like, and the spring-loading favors the 3rd and 4th gear positions. I missed the 5th to 6th shift a few times and shifted into 4th by accident at first. No more. It's fine, but it's not a nice precise sports car shifter. 0-60 acceleration is about 10 seconds if you don't push it too hard. Pushed to its limits, you can manage 9 seconds with the manual transmission. It has always made freeway speed easily on every onramp I've tried. Half throttle is plenty.

I have an issue when driving with shoulder numbness in most cars that extends into my fingers. No problems with that in this car. The seats are firm, but well-designed, and are adjustable, so you can customize your seating position. Visibility is excellent all around, and mirrors are well-placed and wide. Mine are manually adjusted, but the better trims have power controls, and include power folding and heated mirrors. Waste of time for me, really.

The car is reasonably quiet, without a lot of wind or road noise, except for the usual bumps these small cars all seem to have on concrete freeways. Engine, transmission, and driveline noise are minimal, and they've improved the cockpit sound insulation for 2013. I haven't noticed any freeway hop, though, despite the short wheelbase. The car's wide track and corner wheel locations create a good stable feel. Traction and stability control are standard in all models, along with ABS braking. I haven't pushed the car to see how they behave so far.

Cockpit ergonomics are excellent, with sound system and Bluetooth controls on the steering wheel. Instruments are analog and large and well lit, and the digital info screen has several settings, including the usual instant and average mpg stuff, along with at shift point indicator that I don't use. It is designed to produce maximum economy. The sound system is more than adequate, and the higher priced trim versions are even better.

[Jack Sprat]

150. Good review.

Some of us need new wheels but keep procrastinating as long as our old one doesn't completely die. So this information is always appreciated. Nothing like a review from an actual owner.

[MineralMan]

160. One thing I missed.

It also has a very small turning radius. That's great for parking, and it does easy U-turns on my residential street. Even easier than my Volvo, which barely makes the turn. The Soul turns very tightly, which is quite useful in the city.

[CreekDog]

134. they think you want to buy a Camry the size of a 1990's Oldsmobile

and the Scion and Honda Element were the original box vehicles.

sadly, the two boxes that I want to buy were discontinued:

Scion xB's last year is 2012.

Honda Element's last year was 2011.

[MineralMan]

140. So it seems. I didn't realize that the

Scion xB had been dropped from the line. There were still some 2012's available, but I don't like them as much as the Soul. The Nissan's wraparound window and rounded off look also didn't appeal. Any of the small SUVs would have worked, but were too expensive right now, and 4WD, while useful, provides more systems to fail. The old 1999 GMC Jimmy that took a dump on us was a perfect example of complexity killing a car by consecutive failures of systems. Too many moving parts, each costing $1000 to repair when it fails. That vehicle was the worst investment in a car I've ever made. We bought it with 100,000 miles on it in 2004 and had not a single year without at least one $1000 repair bill. In eight years, we had doubled the original price of the thing with repair bills. Not a good bargain. The more complex the car, the costlier it becomes as it ages. I knew that, but ignored it at the time.

[ret5hd]

143. Good sales pitch.

How much did they pay you?

[MineralMan]

147. Nice. It's a consumer review of a car I bought.

Information. I don't do auto reviews for money. I write websites for money. Your snark is misplaced.

[Vinca]

145. Interesting post since I'm 63 and have been noticing those Kia Souls.

For some reason the design appeals to me. Maybe we're just young at heart.

[MineralMan]

148. If you're in the market, a test drive will tell you if you

like it. Cars are very personal things, it seems. It suits my wife and I.

[Vinca]

152. I'm thinking about it. The old Rav still runs well and is paid for.

I could stand a car with better mileage, though.

[MineralMan]

155. It's getting the advertised 27 mpg in city driving.

I haven't made any long distance trips with it, so I can't judge freeway mileage. I had one tank where it was about half freeway driving and got 31 mpg, so I think it will hit its advertised 35 mpg if driven sanely. If driven at 75, though, I'd expect 30-32 mpg. We'll see on the first long trip.

[Vinca]

161. Does it have AWD? That's on my wish list because I live on a dirt road in snow country.

Like you, I don't care about satellite radio or other bells and whistles. I do need something I can put a small table or chair in since I sell antiques and collectibles. That's one reason I like the Rav. The seats fold forward and it holds an amazing amount of stuff.

[MineralMan]

168. Nope. It's just a front wheel drive car.

All of the AWD vehicles were out of my price range.

[Vinca]

169. Probably out of mine, too. FWD works pretty well in snow though.

[MineralMan]

170. We'll see in a couple of months, I guess.

The traction and stability control systems, along with the ABS should also help. We picked the base trim, in part, because it uses 15" wheels. The other trim versions use 16" and 18" wheels with lower profile tires. I hope that adds to its traction in the snow, too.

[CK_John]

164. They are using reverse physiology pretending to go for 25+ when-

the real target is 50+. Follow the money.

[BOG PERSON]

166. reverse physiology sounds gruesome

[Union Scribe]

167. I guess we can look forward to one of these threads

every couple weeks. There's an automotive group here that could use some posts, fyi.

[MineralMan]

171. Threads about automakers advertising decisions?

No, I don't think I'll be writing any more of those. You can skip any thread that doesn't interest you, of course.

[mitchtv]

172. I just got rid of my beautiful, fast American Tbird

It was no joy getting in and out and drank a lot. Bought a Fiat 500, It was easy to getting and out of, and gets good MPG 38-41. Almost bought the Focus, but Fiat was easier to deal with. It was manufactured in Mexico, and assembled in Detroit, so our unions saw part of the action anyway. Yes the knees made the final decision( Fiat has knee airbags).

[MineralMan]

173. The new Fiat 500 has a nice retro look that reminds me

of my 1958 Fiat 600. I'm sure it's much improved over that old one, though, which was a cosmic disaster of an automobile. Still, with the Abarth exhaust system on it, it made a nice raucous noise when driven briskly, and was very cute.

It's not quite what I was looking for, though. A little to small-feeling for my wife's taste, too.

[mitchtv]

174. It sure is easy to get in and out of

compared to my other car, including our big 97 tbird. The interior is neat

[MineralMan]

175. I liked the interior, too. It just didn't have enough cargo space

for our needs, and was just a little more in price than the KIA Soul we finally bought. It looks like a cool car, though, and I expect it to sell well.

[liberal N proud]

176. Funny thing about noticing the car you just purchased.

I just got rid of one that I didn't see that many of until after I sold it. Now they are everywhere. I think they are haunting me. But the one I just purchased is everywhere too, but to be fair it is a very popular vehicle.

[MineralMan]

177. Interesting. I know what you're saying.

There's something about owning a particular car that lets you spot them among all the other cars in traffic. There's some sort of connection involved. It used to be that people waved at each other when they encountered someone driving the same car. That doesn't seem to happen as much anymore. Maybe it's because so many cars look alike these days or because people are too involved in other things to notice what's around them. I don't know.

[liberal_at_heart]

179. I loathe commercials

Every commercial out there tries to convince you that your life would be so perfect if only you would buy their product. You will be more beautiful, rich, successful, happy if only you would just buy their product. Bullshit. That's all commercials are.

[MineralMan]

180. I pay little attention to commercials. I have the internet.

When I want to know about a product, I look at the manufacturer's website, and then find consumer comments and discussions about the product online. After that, I compare it to competing products and make my decision. That's the only way I know.

[aikoaiko]

182. They are not marketing these cars to you because it would kill their appeal to a younger demographic

Car companies realized this on 2005 after the Toyota XB went big with seniors.

But marketing to the senior crowd would kill the image of the vehicles and they want to develop brand loyalty with the much younger cohort.

They love that seniors love the cube cars, but there is not much future in you.

[We are Devo]

184. Bought a new Mazda3 this year...

Fun car, love it! Moonroof, Bose sound...