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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTrump's inciting rhetoric alone is grounds for impeachment...
Dems should cancel the break and treat the situation in our country as the emergency it is.
Lay it all out for the people and let complicit Senate Republicans be seen for what they are.
Given the evidence that the election will likely be stolen - to count on that would be profoundly irresponsible.
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Hoyt
(54,770 posts)time to come back and start Impeachment with charges far beyond the Mueller investigation.
Racism, violence, trade war, emoluments, abuse of power . . . . .
polichick
(37,152 posts)It would probably be a good idea to hire a professional to help them “produce” the kind of “show” it will take to make all those issues clear to the people.
DemocracyMouse
(2,275 posts)
Nevermypresident
(781 posts)impeachment proceeding with excellent optics.
polichick
(37,152 posts)Dems in the House must LEAD in this moment.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/democrats-pressure-mitch-mcconnell-cancel-senate-recess-gun-control-vote-n1039086
DemocracyMouse
(2,275 posts)There's never been a better moment to officially announce impeachment hearings. The public may not "get" what the emoluments clause means, or obstruction of justice, collusion with Russian, Saudi or Chinese. crime lords, or any of Mueller's double negatives.... but they sure as hell understand the vitriol coming out of Trump's mouth this past two weeks and they understand how it has made public life dangerous.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Democrats bringing proceedings against him?
They are convinced that anything they don't want to hear about him is a lie. Especially if it's a Democrat saying it.
DemocracyMouse
(2,275 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)However, I predict there will be the same fury at Democratic leaders for not "removing him" when the inevitable letdown comes when he stays in office that we saw after the Mueller hearings.
Nevermypresident
(781 posts)polichick
(37,152 posts)She is the most powerful Democrat and needs to use ALL of her power to lead the people out of this mess. The lack of urgency makes the House seem irrelevant.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Just because Speaker Pelosi doesn't go out everyday with her hair on fire in front of the cameras doesn't mean she or the Judiciary Commitee don't understand "urgency of the situation."
Just because he isn't being arrested doesn't mean that Congress is 'irrelevant."
polichick
(37,152 posts)and going on break just after the Mueller hearing showed a complete lack of urgency.
Republicans use more power than they actually have by law - Dems tend to use less than they actually have. That’s a problem - deadly for our people and for our democracy.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Really? You missed Nadler's statement. But I suppose you wanted to.
You seem to be under the impression that Democrats have more power than they actually do, and are simply refusing to use it for some unknown, unexplained reason that you have not articulated.
You have also not answered my question about how the constitution will become "null and void" if there is no impeachment of Trump, when the constitution and the rule of law survived Nixon not only not being impeached, but being pardoned of all criminal charges.
You seem to think that there is nothing to be lost by impeaching, and it will be some magic cure for what ails this country, when you and I both know that democrats in Congress, particularly Speaker Pelosi will be the target of fury from people who expected "something" to change, when the reality sets in that "beating" impeachment only made Trump more emboldened, along with his base, and the hateful rhetoric only ramps up.
Just like after the Mueller report.
If you think that his being installed in the Oval Office emboldened his racist cult to act out, what do you think 'being exonerated' from the Democrat's 'witch hunt" will do?
Here are a few predictions:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=12352008
spanone
(135,823 posts)
a kennedy
(29,647 posts)
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)
live love laugh
(13,100 posts)
ecstatic
(32,682 posts)is so upsetting and disturbing. Millions of Americans feel really scared and unsafe right now and NOTHING is being done about it.
trump, by ignoring the true cause of El Paso's massacre, is gaslighting the nation and empowering his nazi would-be killers in real time.
ooky
(8,922 posts)This weak little mouse of a man should be impeached simply for refusing to do his job.
Perseus
(4,341 posts)it has not been done already. Impeachment inquiry should have been started a year ago, maybe even before that after the Helsinki fiasco where the creature showed his allegiance to Putin and his treason to the USA.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Are you aware of who controlled the House a year ago?
Why are Democrats in Congress expected to have mystical powers over the GOP?
That's what happens when people don't know how things work in Congress, but bash Democrats for "not doing their job" anyway.
Zorro
(15,737 posts)They want us all to follow their leader Trump in killing off our democracy.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Social Darwinism.
They don't intend to die. They intend to rule.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)GOP leaders will get more shame opposing Trump than staying quiet about him. They will be anxious to vote against impeachment to ensure their re-election.
They know that they have to choose between keeping their job and even denouncing his rhetoric.
Impeachment won't change that.
It will make us feel better, but it will not convince anyone who still supports Trump that he's bad news.
KY_EnviroGuy
(14,490 posts)seems like due cause to me. This is a failure to defend ALL the people of our nation. You do not defend by inciting violence and hatred.
Further, he violates his oath of office "to protect and defend the Constitution" on a regular basis.
KY.....
polichick
(37,152 posts)on the Dems too if they don’t kick it into high gear soon.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)How does it stop anything he does?
No one can answer that for me that says that is the only way that we can 'defend the Constitution."
What will be different about the Constitution, and Trump's treatment of it after impeachment?
polichick
(37,152 posts)The law - and the Constitution - becomes null and void if people are not held accountable.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)It didn't become "null and void" when Nixon resigned to avoid impeachment, then Ford pardoned him so he could avoid criminal prosecution. That was a total injustice, and yet the Constitution was neither nullified nor voided.
Please explain how a decision to impeach or not to impeach will affect the Constitution.
What 'law' will become "null and void" if the Judicial Committee decides that impeachment will have worse consequences than continuing investigations.
They are carrying out investigations - dozens of them. They are not doing nothing.
polichick
(37,152 posts)so rule of law becomes meaningless at this level.
One of the biggest mistakes in regard to this was pardoning Nixon, which many people knew at the time. Watching Trump break the law and shit on the Constitution every day without impeachment is a million times worse.
Dems who want to do their job are carrying out investigations - but the Speaker looks to be running out the clock.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Yes, it is. That doesn't mean that there is anything Congress can do to stop it, unless Pence and McConnell suddenly decide that they want Trump out. The Courts are pretty much our only real hope to stop his unconstitutional actions, and the rulings are not in the controll of the House.
Again - what would impeachment do, other than make people feel better temporarily, then have them resort to rage against Democrats for "not doing anything" when the inevitable letdown comes, after the realization that it didn't do any of the things that people somehow thought it would to 'stop him."
The hopes for the Mueller report would somehow stop Trump, or convince the Republicans (who answer to Trump's base) that removing Trump would be good for everybody were dashed, and fury turned on the Democrats for not 'DOING SOMETHING' about it.
The same thing will happen when impeachment doesn't change anything, or stop him.
The same rule of law will apply, and the constitution will still be there, the same - but Trump will definitely be more enraged, and will probably amp up the racist rhetoric to get his base more rabid, more people might get killed, and he might stage a Riechstag fire incident.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Or tweeting out hate-filled rhetoric?
Or stop him from doing any of the shit that the courts have let stand?
What will you do when impeachment doesn't do any of those things? Who will you direct your anger at when that letdown comes?
KY_EnviroGuy
(14,490 posts)it can send a clear signal to others in the future that this behavior is unacceptable or else they could be placed in the international spotlight as not worthy of trust. It might even teach tRump to tone down his rhetoric. But my point was that demonizing over half the American public at taxpayer-funded campaign rallies is a violation of his oath. I feel congress should put a stop to that practice in budget provisions. Our presidents already own the bully pulpit and 24/7 free access to public and social media.
The best result is that he is removed from office but just preaching his hate-filled dogma at rallies is not enough. I don't think anyone knows how an impeachment would play out, especially without knowing the proposed articles.
I, like many here, fear that not having congressional impeachment hearings will normalize his behavior for future right-wing administrations and future ones will be worse. The world's plutocrats will see to it. Economic inequality is worsening day-by-day, giving them more power to buy or control elections and governments around the globe each year. That is the foundation of my fears for humanity because those people don't give a damn about people or the environment, even though we've already passed several crucial points that will affect our survival.
I'm quite the stoic, so I try not let anger control me. My life has enough I should be pissed about already, LOL.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Last edited Wed Aug 7, 2019, 09:33 AM - Edit history (2)
How? The only ways to do so involve the cooperation of Mitch McConnell, or Pence and the majority of Trump's cabinet.
Did the resignation and pardon of Nixon to avoid impeachment and criminal prosecution "normalize" his behavior? That was certainly a miscarriage of justice, but did it have effect that you claim? In fact there were many clamp downs on the executive office in the following years, even without the impeachment, that Dick Cheney, who worked in that administration, swore that he would get them overturned if he ever got back into the WH.
Can you explain that?
How do impeachment hearings do anything about that? You think it will stop them? Especially when Trump walks at the end of it?
ScratchCat
(1,981 posts)That his tweet yesterday saying "if the media wont stop reporting fake news, these will continue" should have been the final straw any way you look at that tweet.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Doesn't change the math in the Senate, though
polichick
(37,152 posts)The House needs to do its job - hang this traitor around the necks of Republican Senators so the people understand what’s happening.
You’re right- we drone clerics for less.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)All low-information voters will see is "President Trump vindicated"
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)so that the "witch hunts" will stop...
polichick
(37,152 posts)Everything - from the inciting rhetoric to the Mueller report to the moneymaking machine to the dismantling of our agencies, etc., etc.
Dems should hire a professional who knows how to reach the people about something so complex, to produce the “show” so to speak.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)And about half of the electorate likes him more the more they find out about what he did.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)where his actions are concerned?
You think they're upset at his dismantling of agencies? Do you think that they're upset at his moneymaking?
That's why they support him. That's why they voted for him.
If you think that they're suddenly going to listen to Democrats make the case that he's anything but "winning" and not call it a witch hunt, you haven't been paying attention.
No, impeachment will be for our personal sense of vindication. It will not have the effect on his base are hoping that it will have.
It is no more a silver bullet to turn Trump supporter who are still with him than the Mueller report was. They are convinced that it exonerated him.
Impeachment is not the magic wand that will solve the problem of Trump, any more than the Mueller report did. He is there until January 2021, and he and his supporters will be stoked beyond belief when he is "exonerated" from everything that the Democrats accused him of in impeachment.
polichick
(37,152 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)What people are you talking about?
There are no "undecideds" on Trump. People either thought that the Mueller report showed obstruction, or they thought it exonerated him.
Impeachment would be preaching to the choir, many of whom would then erroneously expect something to change for the better in the WH after he's impeached, and then take it out on the Democrats, who 'failed' to show that impeachment was that magic bullet that would make it better...
Which it never was.
polichick
(37,152 posts)of the American people in order to protect the country from enemies, foreign and domestic.
It’s about actually LEADING, not putting a finger to the wind.
If things are spelled out clearly and forcefully, most people (not the cult) will understand what is happening and be able to see who is standing for the Constitution and who is standing with a traitor.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)"protect the country from enemies, foreign and domestic?"
But isn't that exactly what you want Speaker Pelosi and the Judicial Committee to do, rather than make a decision based on what they believe is a good cost/benefit ratio?
So you do think that there large numbers of are of republican voters out there, particularly in red states, who actually don't have an opinion or are undecided after the Mueller testimony, and after all the racist tweets, as to whether Trump is bad for the country or good?
And that those people will listen to what Democrats say in the hearings, and not Republicans? And won't listen to their friends who say, "that's all just lies, it's a Democratic witch hunt. The Mueller report exonerated him." You can dismiss anyone who barely tolerates him, but does so because they believe that installing pro-life judges is the most important thing that the GOP should do as "cult" members, but they are going to vote for him, and will vote against any politician that crosses Trump or McConnell.
Do you have any polls or actual statistics that show the existence and numbers of those people? Seriously - I haven't seen any evidence of their existence, especially in large enough numbers to actually make a difference with GOP senators.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Not surprised.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)His base will never, ever abandon him, nor will they ever forgive or vote for anyone who "turns on him."
Including Pence.
And no, droning POTUS isn't an option, no matter how macho that sounds...
polichick
(37,152 posts)droning POTUS - the poster pointed out that the U.S. drones clerics for inciting rhetoric, and I agreed.
The point is the double standard - if we’ll go to such extremes elsewhere, we surely can’t allow the same behavior here. Thus, impeachment.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Your words, yes?
Again.... how does impeachment stop or even change his rhetoric? It doesn't. A drone stops someone from promoting any and all rhetoric.
That's why the analogy doesn't work, since you can't articulate how impeachment would even metaphorically do to Trump what a Drone does to a cleric.
And Trump would likely ramp up his rhetoric in response to impeachment, so it might actually have the effect of an attempt to droning a cleric, and missing, impelling the cleric to ramp up the rhetoric.
Three years ago, The Atlantic, in its endorsement of Hillary Clinton for president (an editorial motivated not by love for Clinton but by fear of Trump), stated, “In one of the more sordid episodes in modern American politics, Trump made himself the face of the so-called birther movement, which had as its immediate goal the demonization of the country’s first African American president. Trump’s larger goal, it seemed, was to stoke fear among white Americans of dark-skinned foreigners.”
It is depressing to realize that we were correct (though, if anything, understated in our analysis), and it is depressing to think that there is no immediate way out of this crisis.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/trump-getting-worse/595453/
Imagine the response to impeachment...
Crickets.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)so a missed droning would have the effect of worsening the rhetoric.
The math in the senate ensures that it will be a miss, and he will see that coming for months.
Eyeball_Kid
(7,430 posts)strengthen the case for impeachment. Without the Courts weighing in, Nancy seems to depict herself as helpless.
polichick
(37,152 posts)People give them power so they’ll use it.
Sometimes the “helplessness” is about maintaining the staus quo for donors - but in these circumstances even that makes no sense.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)What power does impeachment have to remove Trump or even hamper his activities.
The courts are the only ones that can do that, since we don't have the Senate.
polichick
(37,152 posts)The people gave Dems the WH and both houses of Congress in 2008, but Dem participation was way down in 2010 because Dem leaders too often protected the status quo instead of making the bold changes they were put in power for.
If Dems fail to use ALL of their power to stop a sociopath, voters will question the point of voting for them.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)No one has answered that....
What will change after impeachment in terms of him doing what he is currently doing, only with him and his base more enraged, and stoked by him 'being exonerated' from all the things that those Democrats lied about?
Are you saying that you would question the point of voting for Democrats?
That you would be so furious about Trump, that you would respond by giving Republicans more opportunity to stay in the House and Senate?
That makes no sense whatsoever.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)I'm not surprised.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)over a decade, used literally thousands of times, not just by them but by anti-Democratic Party LW agents. Its implications are so profoundly misleading that it is effectively a lie and has been for 11 years.
For others who genuinely don't know that, we had all 3 for 2 months unexpectedly as senators came and went in an astonishingly chaotic session that included 1 senator famously kept from taking his seat by phony Republican chicanery, 1 senator famously dying of a brain tumor who nobly but extremely unreliably attended when he could, 1 Republican senator who shocked everyone by unexpectedly transferring parties, and another senator who fell ill, left, and was never able to return. Except for that brief, unexpected period, for the rest of that year, before and after, and for the rest of the term, Republicans controlled the senate, with the same results as now.
Also, McConnell & co had famously plotted secretly and sworn publicly that they would keep the Obama administration from having ANY achievements at all, and those 4 years and the 4 after that were scorched earth.
I'd be ashamed to have posted this smear on our party even ignorantly, but since it is such a famous and hackneyed attack line that would not have been possible.
lapucelle
(18,250 posts)Here's a partial list of enacted legislation for the 111th Congress (1/3/09 - 1/3/11). Was all this legislation passed into law in order to preserve the status quo?
Children's Health Insurance Program Reauthorization Act (SCHIP)
American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (ARRA)
Omnibus Appropriations Act, 2009
Omnibus Public Land Management Act of 2009
Fraud Enforcement and Recovery Act of 2009
Helping Families Save Their Homes Act of 2009
Credit CARD Act of 2009
Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act
Hiring Incentives to Restore Employment Act
Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act
The Student Aid and Fiscal Responsibility Act
Caregivers and Veterans Omnibus Health Services Act of 2010
Comprehensive Iran Sanctions, Accountability, and Divestment Act of 2010
Dodd–Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act
Tribal Law and Order Act of 2010
Fair Sentencing Act of 2010
Small Business Jobs and Credit Act of 2010
Claims Resolution Act of 2010
Healthy, Hunger-Free Kids Act of 2010
Tax Relief, Unemployment Insurance Reauthorization, and Job Creation Act of 2010
Don't Ask, Don't Tell Repeal Act of 2010
James Zadroga 9/11 Health and Compensation Act of 2010
Food Safety and Modernization Act
***********************************************************************************************************
From Nate Silver:
There’s a second important force at work during midterm elections, however. The Republican turnout advantage is either exacerbated or all but canceled out depending on which party controls the White House. Scholars have long shown a major loss of support for the president’s party in midterm elections. With a Democrat in the White House, the GOP turnout advantage gets even bigger. With a Republican in the Oval Office, the GOP on average barely has any advantage at all.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)No surprise.
lapfog_1
(29,199 posts)who is at all disgusted or even just troubled by this traitor racist narcissist sociopath doesn't go out and vote... no matter who the democratic nominee is, no matter if the Democrats in Congress sit and twiddle their thumbs for the next year... then we deserve to lose this country, this ideal, this experiment in self government.
Swift Hixson
(14 posts)Speaker Pelosi can't force 130+ reps to vote on authorizing proceedings by the Judiciary Committee.
Blaming Pelosi is the wrong tack. Mitch loves it though.
H2O Man
(73,536 posts)I agree 100%.
calguy
(5,306 posts)Nevermypresident
(781 posts)standard? It should.
Interesting thought...
MuseRider
(34,105 posts)100%
NCLefty
(3,678 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)since he knows at the start that he would "walk" at the end of it.
It would likely impel him to ramp up the hate speech in an effort to mobilize his fans.
It would likely cause the loss of Democratic Senate seats in red states if they vote to convict.
It would likely cause the loss of Democratic congressional seats in swing districts if they vote to impeach.
If it is a choice between taking the Senate in 2020 and impeachment, I choose the Senate.
Do I want him to rot in jail? Yes. Is impeachment going to do that? No.
Do I want him to be remembered as the worst POTUS in history? Yes. Will that still be the case if we don't impeach? Yes.
I'm not seeing the benefit to Democracy and our country by impeaching when we know that he will be 'exonerated' in the eyes of his fans. If anything, it would embolden him.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)I’ll certainly remember all these “chess games” if they don’t work out our way.