Is it just me or do the white supremacists travel to places where there actually

[applegrove]

is antifa, like Portland, in order to create a narrative of violent antifa. This is baiting. Am i wrong?

[bigbrother05]

1. You're not wrong. Confrontation is their motive.

They hope someone touches them or gives them any excuse to physically attack a weaker (perceived) foe or to complain about how their rights are being violated.

Think of the smirky kid that stood in the NA's face in DC then wants to sue everyone because they called him out on his behavior.

[Hortensis]

3. Right. They crave violence and must gain attention.

[asiliveandbreathe]

12. VOX has a great article - You are so correct...Andy Ngo what an instigator....

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/7/3/20677645/antifa-portland-andy-ngo-proud-boys

[Downtown Hound]

2. They target any place that's a liberal bastion

A few years ago it was Berkeley. After two all out battles, one that was pretty much an even draw and one that they regrettably won, they got their ass kicked so hard the third time and were so outnumbered that they haven't come back since.

Other cities should take note. That's how you get them to stop showing up.

[Hortensis]

5. Ignoring's far better. Or as some towns have done, making

fun of them and laughing them on their way. They need "heroic" violent video out of these things.

Our Georgia town ignored a KKK group into leaving. If they throw a parade and no one comes, not even to disapprove, what's the point?

[Downtown Hound]

6. Then they move on to find another target

Would you rather they turned their attention on innocent people? Because they will. And if you think they won't, you're terribly naive. Next time, it might be immigrants, or some other group that they feel they can bully more easily.

[Hortensis]

9. Down, those were examples of how communities

can snuff these groups out, or at least give them real setbacks, by denying them the angry attention they must have to survive.

[Downtown Hound]

10. Ignoring them isn't the answer

And anybody who thinks it is, is a woefully misguided fool.

[Caliman73]

29. I would take out the word "fool" that is insulting.

You can opine that ignoring is misguided without that second part.

[Downtown Hound]

30. We're debating the rise of fascism and the destruction

of our democracy. Anybody who thinks that ignoring the problem will make it go away is a fool. As a society we don't have time to spare your feelings. Get on board with the fight or get out of the way.

[bdamomma]

33. ...........

[backscatter712]

18. "Ignore the bullies and they'll go away" is a mother's wishful thinking.

That toxic bit of advice doesn't work for kids in middle school, and it doesn't work against neo-nazi thugs.

In my experience, the ONLY thing that works against these kind of determined bullies is force. Ignoring them doesn't work. Hugs and flowers don't work. Giving the bully a punch in the nose is what works. You have to speak their language.

Ideally, the state would be acting responsibly and using its monopoly on force to force these smoothbrains to fuck off. But seeing that our governments and rule of law is completely broken, sooner or later, we the people have to step up.

Don't get me wrong. What I'm advocating is the least violent course of action that actually works. Because absolute non-violence doesn't work. At some point, you're morally right and ethically justified in defending yourself.

[Hortensis]

21. I didn't expect your and Hound's attitudes on this forum, but

you both are badly mistaking cause and effect. They're not afraid of people like you! It's practically a bromance they so badly need and crave young men who reciprocate their feelings to join them up close and personal.

Otoh, what they are afraid of are the "naive" folk in organizations like the SPLC, ADL, college administrations, municipal governments, local and national law enforcement, including FBI, and courts who've been taking a bunch of crippling steps that have nothing to do with rewarding them for violence.

* Denying permits. So boring and mundane, and so effective.
* Requiring these groups to pay for damages to both people and property. This has imposed crippling economic burdens, not just on groups but individuals, leaders especially, and even parents.
* Arrests, prosecutions, jail. Not just for crimes at the riots. Since participants are so obliging as to identify themselves, they're being checked for crimes in their backgrounds and prosecuted and put away. Private groups are monitoring members when they think they're safe and reporting them to law enforcement.
* What happens when hometown law enforcement, parents, schools, churches, friends and parents of friends, and employers learn what they've been up to.

Right now, thanks to help from the Trump admin, Republicans, Russians and so on, violence is once again surging. But that won't last forever.

Btw, if you have friends going out for these things you might want to warn them. The courts don't care whether the skull and bat belonged to right or left, and monitoring/investigative groups like the SPLC will identify all violent criminals to the authorities.

[Caliman73]

31. I think it is a difference of opinion.

You have to remember Hortensis that the Democratic Party is a big tent with people who are centrist to people who are center right like Joe Manchin, to people who are moderates like the Clintons, to progressives and further left like AOC. People have differing ideas on combating right wing extremism.

Antifa groups do not typically go out looking for fights just for the sake of fighting. They do not attack right wingers but they also to not back down if there if violence. There is a difference there. The real problem with antifa is that they are decidedly anti-capitalist. They do not want to preserve the current system with tweaks, they want to disrupt the system and remake it. That mindset is a threat not only to Right wingers but to liberals as well who believe in the system but want to regulate it. Antifa are usually a blend of socialists, Marxists, Anarchists, etc... that think that ignoring is not the way to go.

Actually, I would also argue that the courts DO care. They are likely a lot more lenient on right wing groups than they are on far left groups for the reasons I stated above. While right wing groups are extremist and ugly, they support the existing paradigm of power which is wealthy White men. They just want to more overtly classify people, whereas, like I said, left wing groups want to flatten out society and confiscate and redistribute the wealth equitably. Courts are more likely to look down upon groups who want to disrupt the system rather than uphold it by extreme measures.

[Hortensis]

40. :) Thanks. A difference of definition, more inclusive.

The word "antifa" has come to be commonly applied to groups who seek out violent confrontations with violent RW groups. I'm not surprised that it's also generally become more politically extreme as time goes on, and I certainly recognize your descriptions. This more inclusive definition makes romantics who imagine they're needed to brawl with RW hate groups seem almost benign in comparison.

Dangerously, the far left you describe and the far right of course have a great deal in common, a lot more usually than either has with nonextremists. Our 70 years of peace owed a lot to the ability of the middle to keep extremists on both sides in check. But the middle's broken, and our intelligence services say Russia is working to unite extremists from both sides against everyone else, along with the kind of antagonistic, resentful types who are always found in populist groups. That combination has destroyed a lot of nations. It's starting to look way too much like the 1930s all over again, with some dangerous differences.

You're spot on about many courts, taking a large view of course, especially here in the south. I was thinking about what's liable to happen to foolish youngsters rushing to trouble, but it could be much worse, as you say.

[Downtown Hound]

34. You think engaging them is so inefective and only serves to strenghten them

Nothing has hurt them more than Charlottesville. The alt right has been limping along ever since that day. And that was entirely due to the actions of Antifa. They were the ones who shut them down and forced them to reveal their true colors. Without Antifa going toe to toe with them that day, they would be in a much stronger position than they are. They lost tons of funding after Charlottesville. They lost their web domains. They lost their jobs. That was because of Antifa and Antifa alone.

I fully support what the SPLC does. I support attacking them in every way possible, including voting for Democrats, who aren't exacly Antifa's best friends. What I'm tired of is the lie that fighting them directly only strengthens them. It's a lie and it always has been.

[Hortensis]

41. We're on the same side. Have a nice evening, Hound.

[Downtown Hound]

45. You do the same.

[Blue_true]

43. Boston shut them down with a massive and peaceful counter-protest.

People of all walks of life from all races and religions were said to have shown up at the counter-protest, tens of thousands.

[Hortensis]

44. How great, all the better of course because Bostonians

showed each other what they were and wanted to be. A strong affirmative stand.

[Ilsa]

4. The Charlottesville white supremacists talked about

the potential for violence there, and they came prepared to stir things up.

[Hortensis]

7. The press helped more than a little. I looked and looked

and saw almost no footage that even indicated, much less actually showed, the crowds of locals who came out to quietly disapprove and show this wasn't welcome. They far outnumbered those who came to fight on both sides, but to viewers they weren't there at all.

[Downtown Hound]

8. And if no one had opposed them, it would have been worse.

[asiliveandbreathe]

11. I wanted to understand the Portland protests - I have been reading the Southern Poverty Law Ctr..

Took a look at the hate map..Oregon….decided to learn about Antifa..hear what Portland is trying to do to ready for these protests - who could be involved - I especially wanted to read about Andy NGO, who was ruffed up - the milkshake incident...he isn't the innocent victim you might think...NO, I do not advocate violence...but, did NGO instigate? - you decide..great read from VOX...

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/7/3/20677645/antifa-portland-andy-ngo-proud-boys

But according to a second narrative, offered primarily by less well-known left-liberal writers and social media accounts, the mainstream media is getting it all wrong. Ngo is not an innocent victim but a far-right sympathizer who has doxxed antifa members in the past, potentially facilitating their harassment, and provokes them so that he can broadcast the result. The outpouring of sympathy for Ngo, in this account, is actually evidence that the mainstream media is falling for Ngo’s grift — funneling money to his Patreon and legitimizing a right-wing smear campaign against a group that’s working to protect people from the threat of violence from groups like the Proud Boys

.


https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2019/07/portlands-police-chief-calls-for-anti-mask-laws-different-approach-for-violent-protesters.html

Police Chief is suggesting an anti-mask law..others don't agree..

As for the anti-mask proposal, Commissioner Amanda Fritz’s chief of staff, Tim Crail, said, “We looked into it previously and the constitutional free speech issues are difficult to overcome, at least in Oregon.”

[Downtown Hound]

13. Andy Ngo got what he deserved

He posted the name and contact info of of a woman who had been assaulted by the Proud Boys on his website. He did this with the full intention of opening her up to harassment and further acts of violence. He went to troll Antifa that day even after he had done this and knew they were pissed off about it. Fuck him.

And at the end of the day, all that happened to him is he got punched a few times and had some silly string sprayed on him and some milkshakes thrown at him. And the right calls that terrorism but not the hundreds of mass shootings they perpetuate all the time? Please.

[backscatter712]

15. And don't forget the other fucker who was waving his bloody shirt.

They posted pictures of him bleeding after he got hit with a crowbar, but they didn't post the other pictures, or the other relevant details.

He was a member of Patriot Prayer, and he was photographed waving a collapsable baton at counterprotesters, which is why he got the attitude adjustment with the crowbar. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Fuck Nazis!

[asiliveandbreathe]

16. Yes, that mikshake story - a mixture of cement..a myth..others were drinking the same milkshakes..

Ngo even went to London to stir up controversy - from Vox article..

Last year, for example, Ngo went to the UK to chronicle the supposed threat the rising Muslim population posed to British society. The resulting article, “A Visit to Islamic England,” claimed England was being quietly conquered by fundamentalist Islam.
The piece was shredded by actual Brits. Most amusingly, Ngo presented a London sign reading “alcohol restricted zone” as evidence of Islamic dominance in the Whitechapel neighborhood; it was actually a public safety ordinance designed to discourage public acts of drunkenness from patrons of nearby pubs, bars, and strip clubs.

I do not want antifa to be seen as violent..they are fighting fascists..Ngo is an instigator..making money on hate so called journalism..for the far right.....

[backscatter712]

14. That's exactly what they do.

For this reason, and many others, these fuckers need to have their teeth punched down their throats.

[CentralMass]

17. From what I can tell, antifafa here in Portland was vilolent even before there were counter

protesters .lile the November 2016 anti tRump ally or the May Day 2017 rally.
Now any of the rallies are guaranteed to have a group like the Proud Boys countering and stirring it up.

So from my observations, they are violent even as a solo act

[rockfordfile]

19. They wouldn't exist if not for fascists coming around causing trouble

[CentralMass]

20. There were no facists in those 2016 and 2017 events.

The group showed up masked bent on violence and destruction.

[Downtown Hound]

22. A fascist and avowed racist had just stolen our democracy

with the aid of a hostile foreign power. Or did you forget that small tidbit of information?

[CentralMass]

23. Right. so when the familes showed up for that anti-tRump rally some pushing thier kids in strollers

in downtown Portland it warrented mask thugs going on reign of terror tearing up the city. A predominately liberal sanctuary city at that. I disagree. The invividuals we have here in Portland performing these violent acts are thugs right out of the box.

[Downtown Hound]

24. Oh the humanity!

I've been to enough marches like this to know that it's pretty easy to get out of the way if you want to. And I'm sure there's plenty of other marches they can attend. So spare me the think of the children crap.

[backscatter712]

27. I've been to them too.

Personally, I feel a hell of a lot safer around the antifa people I've met than I've ever felt when right-wing chuds show up.

The fashies are always spoiling for a fight, and aren't beneath attacking innocent people to get their jollies on. The antifa I've personally seen don't fight unless it's necessary.

[Downtown Hound]

28. Yuppers.

Anybody who thinks that Antifa is just going to attack them out of the blue like some bloodthirsty Cujo has been watching way too much Fox News.

[Caliman73]

35. Not just Fox.

All mainstream outlets also report on Antifa as if they instigate conflict and violence. If it were just Fox then people on DU, who do not typically watch Fox, would not hold similar beliefs. As I said in my other response, the difficulty with Antifa and the left is that they are working against the system not within it. I understand why, and I am sure you do as well, but you are basically accusing people who are not on the right of being on the right rather than just not fully understanding the views of people on the left.

[Downtown Hound]

37. True

It's not that I really think DU'ers watch Fox News. I'm just pointing out that when they talk about Antifa in that way they are mirroring the propaganda of the right. Ironic, for a bunch of people who know better than most people how much the right lies, that they would parrot their talking points about this issue.

[Caliman73]

38. Because it isn't just a right wing talking point. It is a capitalist talking point.

Antifa groups to varying degrees are anti-capitalism and while right wingers and liberals disagree about social issues and some of the distribution of wealth, they agree upon the foundation of the system of capitalism. They will defend capitalism, even if it is ultimately an unsustainable system.

[Downtown Hound]

39. That's true enough. n/t

[PandoraAwakened]

36. You sure about that?

I know of a southern California neo-Nazi group that regularly goes to Portland dressed as Anti-fa to stir shit up.

Here's a good rule of thumb to follow: If a person who you think is Anti-fa is attacking anti-Trumpers, he's actually a masquerading neo-Nazi.

[backscatter712]

25. You don't have antifa without the fa to be against.

And don't give me this both-sides bullshit - the fascists literally want to bring back the days of putting people in ovens, and antifa is guilty of what? Saying there will be no people in ovens, using milkshakes and fists.

[applegrove]

46. Yes but you don't have to travel thousands of miles to bait them because

they are suckers for violence. And next year they'll travel to Portland again. And again. And Trump will have a narrative that there are bad people "on both sides".

[Mc Mike]

26. You're right, imo. rec, nt

[Cracklin Charlie]

32. Agents provocateurs.

There are many different reasons and causes that people target these events.

Some feel strongly about the issue. Others are there because they hate the people on the other side of the issue. Some are just there to stir up trouble, and make one side or other look bad.

It is baiting in a way; but, sometimes it can go much further that just baiting.

[Blue_true]

42. Portland Oregon and Berkley California have become THE

cities for white supremacist marches. It is due to the cities' reputations as liberal bastions. Expect Seattle to be up soon on that list.

[CentralMass]

47. Noah Trevor on antifa