Why I don't (necessarily) buy Epstein conspiracy theories

[cab67]

Is it possible that someone got to Epstein to shut him up? Yes.

Is it likely? No - and neither is it the best explanation.

1. Suicide is actually a fairly common phenomenon for men - especially powerful men - publicly exposed as pedophiles. If Epstein committed suicide, it’s not unusual. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3629679/

2. Yeah, a lot of powerful people were about to be exposed. But given what the Feds already have, Epstein’s death will do nothing to protect them. This isn’t analogous to shooting Oswald days after Kennedy was assassinated, before anyone really knew what happened - Epstein was followed for many years, and the records are already in hand.


My thoughts, anyway. I don’t completely reject the possibility that he was killed to keep him quiet, but i’m not convinced we need to invoke it. His silence won’t have as much practical benefit as many think.

[5X]

1. the point is, he was allowed to kill himself.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

6. This happens in prisons a lot. Even high-profiled prisoners are mishandled, because the system is a

garbage fire.

[pnwmom]

52. There's no excuse for taking him off of suicide watch after only 6 days.

Someone did this deliberately. They might as well have signed a death warrant.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

2. There's no conspiracy. He died as he always lived -- by cheating. Someone like that always makes

sure that there's an out, even if they're caught.

[gordianot]

15. In my opinion this observation wins the day.

His death cheated his victims. He was primarily a cheat.

[cwydro]

45. Excellent point.

It had to have crossed his mind, and he would have had a plan.

[customerserviceguy]

82. Agreed

You have summed it up very well.

[Srkdqltr]

3. Sometimes it is what it is.

[Cyrano]

4. The conspiracy theories have started and will never end.

Fifty years from now, people will still be arguing that it was Trump, or Clinton, or one of Epstein's billionaire associates, or ... take your pick.

Hell, we're still arguing about shots from the grassy knoll 57 years later.

[brush]

13. Call it a conspiracy theory if you want, I call it common sense.

Epstein had too much extremely damaging info on many rich and powerful people.

It just came out that he's the one who introduced Melania to trump.

The information in his head could not be allowed to be expressed. His only way out of the rest of his life in prison was to make a deal to divulge that information, and he had enough money to pay lawyers to work on that.

[essme]

25. It did not "just come out" that he introduced those two grifters

That's been out in the news since he was arrested.

Trump claims that they were introduced somewhere else.

It is not "common sense" that he was "murdered."

I agree that there are probably a lot of people that are glad he's gone--- but, I don't think there's any conspiracy here.

[brush]

28. I don't think there's a conspiracy theory here either. IMO his death...

was facilitated.

As far as the trump introduction to Melania, even if it came out before it is being reported now again on cable news. And many don't know that.

Many benefit from that guy being dead. To think he just committed suicide on his own without assistance is just naive.

[brooklynite]

75. Even if Epstein could have fingered Trump or other powerful people...

...he wasn’t getting a lighter sentence. Epstein was the ringleader, and no prosecutor would be prepared to let him office (and deny his victims justice a second time) just because they could get someone else.

[njhoneybadger]

80. What if Epstein was selling his blackmail information to Putin

[FiveGoodMen]

35. Nothing to see here folks...

[Eliot Rosewater]

5. He was murdered , sigh...the most powerful men in the world wanted him silenced

[Hoyt]

7. Conspiracy theories are common here. I'm not sure what folks think Epstein was going to reveal,

that was not already known or in the evidence being released.

[RKP5637]

9. K&R n/t

[chowder66]

11. He consistently pleaded the fifth according to the document release yesterday. nt

[Nevermypresident]

18. According to at least one of the underaged girls that was quoted in the Jane Doe

lawsuit (yes, I know it was dropped and yes I know there were supposedly death threats), alledgedly Epstein had an elaborate recording set up in his mansion in New York. She described it in detail, down to it's location in the mansion.

IMO, that doesn't seem like a bridge too far to think he would do so. Certainly not tinfoil hat conspiracy stuff.

If so, where are the tapes?

Bottom line, we do not know if all potential evidence has been revealed to the prosecutors at this moment in time.

[True Dough]

27. I don't even believe you're Hoyt

I believe this is really Elvis Presley's DU account and Hoyt is just a pseudonym.

Prove me wrong!

[Hoyt]

34. That's one of those conspiracy theories I'm talking about. I am a famous

person, though, in witness protection. My story will come out soon, and take a lot of people down.

[True Dough]

42. I don't recall any bad blood between us, "Hoyt"

Don't take me down with you!!!

[Hoyt]

65. You're good.

[True Dough]

66. Phew!

[StarfishSaver]

50. ...or that would be believed

Epstein wasn't exactly credible.

But now, in death, he'll be characterized as a great truthteller poised to drop some serious truth on the country who, had he lived, would have singlehandedly taken Trump down

[brush]

8. Please. There's supposed to be nothing to hook to in those cells to hang yourself.

Last edited Sat Aug 10, 2019, 01:15 PM - Edit history (1)

This is a reverse case of Occam's razor—the simplest explanation is usually correct.

IMO it's not here because in high-profile cases like this, especially since there was a previous alleged suicide attempt, Epstein should have been on strict suicide watch and in a cell with no protrusions, no shoe laces, nothing. Bill Cosby for instance is watched every 15 minutes.

Epstein had too much info on too many rich and powerful people. It just came out that he was the one who introduced Melania to trump. That's one glaring reason right there why he had to die. Was the First Lady one of his...?

I better not finish that sentence.

[harumph]

17. Exactly. I love the chorus of "reason" - Occam's razor and all that.

You're right. I was on another thread explaining how a relation of mine faked his death
by leaving his shoes on a bridge - went back to Italy - remarried - and then some
years later reappeared. Not a secret to the community - no one talked to the authorities.
One poster was comparing speculation that this isn't suicide to 911 "truthers." That's
insulting. Jail cell murders happen. Coerced suicide happens. My family calls
these "voices of reason" clueless white people. We're "white" - but you know what I mean.
Most of America ain't Mayberry.

[cwydro]

48. Sooo...he drove (or somehow found a way) to the bridge...put his shoes in place because...

Everyone takes their shoes off before jumping to their death, right? Then found another way back to the airport, flew out (fake passport?), then reappeared in the same community where people knew him as someone else altogether...Is that right?

Pull the other one - it’s got bells on it.

[harumph]

57. 1947 - upstate NY.

He didn't fly - he left on a freighter. Calabrian family. He did it to escape a marriage.
His still living first wife lived down the block. Nobody talked.
You appear incredulous.

This guy didn't get away with it:

https://abcnews.go.com/2020/marcus-schrenker-fake-death/story?id=10201960

Respectfully, you're naive if you think this shit doesn't happen.

[cwydro]

60. Of course people do it.

They usually don’t return to their original communities.

[kozar]

30. My thoughts too

Epstein was not the King in this chess match,,he was just portrayed to be. The sick preyers still control the board.


Koz

[brush]

32. Correct. If you play chess you know the king is far from the most powerful piece.

[global1]

10. In Response To Your Number #1 Point.....

How many Catholic priests have committed suicide?

[cab67]

19. It's surprisingly common

though underreported.

[global1]

23. Any Numbers? Links? .....

to suicide deaths of catholic priests accused of sexually assaulting boys?

[cab67]

26. I don't know of any dedicated web pages

But I just did a google search for ‘pedophile priest suicide’ and got a bunch of hits.

Bear in mind, historically, the Church did everything it could to shield these priests from exposure. That dampened the suicide rate, which has risen as public awareness has grown.

That’s probably why Epstein didn’t off himself 10 years ago - he had a reasonable expectation of being g at least somewhat protected from public scorn.

[global1]

31. I've Read About Victim's Suicide ....

those that were abused by priests - but - haven't seen that much in the way of accused priests committing suicide. I know that there have been some incidents - but not fairly common as you suggest.

[cab67]

36. I said 'surprisingly common.'

Not ‘frequent.’

I also stated that these priests were (and, all too often, still are) shielded from public exposure. The trigger for these suicides usually isn’t guilt - it’s shame. No exposure, no shame.

[Arazi]

39. Not in federal prisons and definitely not in MCC where Epstein was held

Read Harry Litman's just recently posted piece in WaPo

[marble falls]

71. But Ghislaine Maxwell's own father did as his empire crumbled down arounf his ears ...

http://www.businesspundit.com/10-millionaire-businessmen-who-committed-suicide/

[LisaL]

12. Move along, nothing to see here. Nothing suspicious here at all.

[cab67]

21. I never said there was nothing to see here.

There’s plenty to see. I’m just not convinced a murder conspiracy is among those things to be seen.

[brush]

62. Wake up. Do not believe a word out of the trump/barr cabal.

They do nothing but lie. Too many powerful, rich people's reputations and possible freedom was in jeopardy as long as Epstein was alive.

[BootinUp]

14. Every time someone references Oswald CT another angel somewhere loses his wings. nt

[cab67]

24. Not sure there was a conspiracy there, either.

But if there was, it made sense to silence Oswald as soon as possible.

With Epstein, the time to take him out was 15 years ago. Taking him out now accomplishes nothing beyond ridding the world of a scumbag.

[DeminPennswoods]

16. I don't buy the CTs either

Epstein couldn't face the idea of life behind bars and he found a way to kill himself.

[panader0]

20. Who authorized him to be taken off of suicide watch?

Here you have one of the most important witnesses ever, he tries,
supposedly, to commit suicide weeks ago, and you take him off watch?
How often was he monitored? Even if it was every 15 minutes, that's not
enough, obviously.
Like I said in a different post, an inexpensive camera could have watched
him 24/7. The protocol seems to have been very flawed. The guy was a
very high profile and important witness. He needed to be watched.

[mr_lebowski]

68. I wonder if there's software AI that can detect strange/dangerous physical behavior

while monitoring a video feed, and raise a loud alarm.

If so, I'm sure it couldn't detect someone taking pills, but someone doing physical harm to themselves, like a hanging, or a struggle between 2 persons in a cell meant for one? Seems likely to me it could, and that such tech exists.

Did THIS jail have anything like that? Of course I have no idea. But I'd bet there are jails that do, it makes great sense as a cost-saving measure.

I'd be looking whether this one did, among lots of other oddities involved here.

[meadowlander]

79. Probably.

I know a semi-retired engineer who is working on pest control who has cameras/a programme that can distinguish between the heat signatures and typical motions of rats, possums and ferrets versus other non-harmful animals (including domestic pets). He sets these up in the habitats of endangered species and is working on linking the camera to a gun which can fire a poison pellet at just the identified vermin as an alternate to large scale aerial spraying of sodium fluoroacetate.

So I'm sure you could use the same technology to have a camera that raised an alarm if a human sized/shaped object made sudden whole body jerking motions or whatever other motions were typical of a struggle.

[Leghorn21]

22. This!: "Epstein was followed for many years, and the records are already in hand."

TONS of records - which some folks think will just get, well, “misplaced” - which would not surprise too many of us (unfortunately)

But hey cab - in order for Barr to just step in and kick this case to the curb, he would have to tell Geoffrey Berman to “stand down”, right?? (Right?)

And me, I just can’t see that happening because we all watched Mr. Berman and his team in July, live and in person, kicking some sex-traffic ass that day, and I can’t imagine they’d all just go “oh okay Mr. AG, we’ll just go prosecute some speeding tickets now, whatever you like, sir”

I mean - have I got this right? am I...close?

[womanofthehills]

29. We don't even really know if someone injured him earlier or if it really was an earlier attempt

Someone could have made the earlier attempt look like suicide, so the final suicide would be less questionable. Remember all the previous weird stuff about his cell mate (a man who had allegedly killed 4 people) - how weird is that. So questions were asked was it his cell mate who injured him or saved him? News never really got to what happened there.

Personally, sounds like a Russia thing to me.

[emmaverybo]

33. I too do not see yet any evidence that his death was the result of a conspiracy to silence him, for

all the reasons you stated. Documentation raising suspicions about other powerful men already exists and as you point out, chances were strong that he would do so.

If laxity in watching him for suicide facilitated his demise, it was not necessarily deliberate. If deliberate, not necessarily at the behest of shadowy hired agents in a bid to forever bury incriminating testimony about high muckety mucks’ involvement.

[StarfishSaver]

37. I'm with you on this

Also, conspiracy theories tend to focus on the person who died while ignoring all the others left untouched.

Mueller, FBI agents investigating Trump, Hillary, Michael Cohen, various associates, etc. all still walking around alive and well

Same goes for the Clinton murder theories - They supposedly killed Vince Foster but Monica Lewinsky and Linda Tripp were left unscathed to sing like canaries and almost take down the Clinton presidency.

Epstein's death isn't going to stop exposure. It's not like he was a witness with information he was willing to offer to take someone down. There was no guarantee that he was going to talk anyway. And what he had to say wasn't necessarily valuable or even credible.

Like you, I think a conspiracy is certainly a possibility But it's not my first go to.

[BannonsLiver]

38. Anyone who takes anything this admin says or does at face value is a fool

Did he kill himself? Maybe. I do know I don’t trust a fucking thing coming out of Barr’s DoJ. If anyone in this admin told me it was Saturday I’d be checking the calendar to make sure.

It just sort of amazes the number of people who are willing to accept their version of events without even questioning it.

These people are fucking liars, folks. What makes you think this is the moment they start telling the truth?

[Claritie Pixie]

41. They are criminals.

Barr as head of the DOJ means they do whatever *** wants.

[stopdiggin]

43. take it with a grain of salt

but that doesn't mean I'm the first one to climb on the conspiracy bandwagon either. Spooking at shadows constantly just makes you a ---- spook?

[BannonsLiver]

44. You take it however you like

I don’t trust anything about this admin. So it’s guilty until proven otherwise instead of the other way around.

[jberryhill]

53. Do you beleive Epstein is dead?

Who says that Epstein is dead?

If you think Epstein is dead, then you agree with the administration, incidentally.

[cwydro]

69. Well done.

[Claritie Pixie]

40. What if the feds under Barr's direction get rid of the evidence.

[stopdiggin]

46. destroying evidence is generally a crime

burying evidence is more plausible .. but not exactly foolproof either. What's buried can be unburied .. and then someone has to explain how it came to be in the attic.

[Claritie Pixie]

47. Of course it is but who would enforce that?

[stopdiggin]

49. it's getting people to do it in the first place

refer back to Leghorns post (#22), I think makes a good point. Not saying it CAN'T happen (the times we live in) but I think you get some real "push back" from people while attempting to sweep things under the rug.

[Claritie Pixie]

51. I hope you're right about that.

I feel as if I've been waiting to see push back from exec branch employees for a very long time.

[stopdiggin]

58. truth !!

but I think it does happen. For example, Kirstjen Nielsen .. forced out at Homeland after months of trying to explain to the president that much of what he wanted to do was illegal. At lower levels, people are probably doing what they do in any organization .. keeping their heads down, as much passive resistance and "lack of communication" as they think they can get away with, and (mostly quiet) departures. Numerous stories published about how the Executive is being "hollowed out." My point (if in fact I have one) is that I don't think that everyone that works for Justice or the FBI has all of a sudden gone rouge and is eager to cover up crime and corruption. Good people there still, and they are going to ATTEMPT to serve the country. And, yes, in today's world that would brand me as an ardent optimist. Sadly.

[backscatter712]

54. I'd say the most likely scenario is that the prison staff were paid to look the other way...

...while Epstein committed suicide, sort of like Frank Pentangeli in Godfather II.

[LisaL]

55. I don't believe he killed himself.

[USALiberal]

85. LOL, ok! nt

[Sunsky]

56. I disagree

This is someone committing suicide in a facility whose workers are trained to deal with suicidal persons. He was not just out there living in society. In fact, his case garnered media attention for months before he was locked up and he was out and about, living his life as usual. One could say the reality of spending the rest of his life in prison was too much for him. True. However, that would not be uncommon. He was in a secured facility. There are protocols to follow for anyone with suicidal ideation, worst someone who has recently attempted suicide.
Why was he taken off suicide watch so soon?

[DeminPennswoods]

59. The report is that Epstein was on suicide watch

and one of the protocalls is to have the inmate meet with a psychologist/psychiatrist every day to be assessed. Apparently, Epstein convinced the mental health professionals he was no longer considering suicide and they released him back to his special unit. People who are determined to kill themselves can be quite clever hiding their intentions.

Reportedly, Epstein was also paying his lawyers to spend time with him going over his case for hours each day just so he could be in the lawyer meeting room instead of his cell.

[Sunsky]

64. I agree

"People who are determined to kill themselves can be quite clever hiding their intentions" this is exactly what they're trained to deal with. It takes thorough risk assessment and not just the reliance on the words of the patient. I guarantee that many of those placed on suicide watch will try every trick in their disposal to get off suicide watch. We see this with many Baker Acted patients in FL. Psych professionals are trained for this. The evidentiary data and subsequent act by Epstein suggests this was the wrong decision. I believe these professionals are being setup to be the fall guys, however this was more likely a system wide breakdown or something nefarious. I find this inexcusable. Let's wait until we have a credible assessment of what happened before we blame the professionals.

[DeminPennswoods]

70. Not blaming the professionals at all

A few years ago our community was rocked by a teen suicide where the teenager was in therapy, the parents could not have been more supportive and constantly were on the lookout for signs their child was depressed or had suicidal thoughts. One day, the teen left school early, waved to one of the parents while leaving, then walked a few blocks and stepped in front of an oncoming train. People who are determined to end their lives will find a way. No one can prevent it.

[Sunsky]

72. To an extent

However, it should not be that easy in a controlled environment. There are trained people who have dealt with suicidal persons. Prison is a tough environment. Epstein is not the first, nor will he be the last suicidal person they'll have to attend to. Many here seem to misunderstand what happens in these institutions. You cannot compare what happens in a controlled environment to what happens on the street.
I will not act as if suicides don't happen in these facilities. However, he not only had suicidal ideation, he had recently attempted suicide. There is no way he should've been taken off suicide watch this quickly. This is why he had access to whatever means he used to commit suicide. There are extensive suicide risk assessment and protocols to follow to prevent self harm. This isn't taken lightly.

[DeminPennswoods]

74. Apparently it wasn't taken lightly

I suppose an alternative explanation is that Epstein didn't really mean to kill himself at all, just cause enough harm to himself to get moved out of prison or whatever. There was the speculation the first time he was found in his cell injured that it was a fake suicide attempt. The first try wasn't convincing enough. The second went awry.

[brush]

61. Fool yourself but pls don't try to fool the rest of us.

[FBaggins]

63. It's also possible that it was neither suicide nor murder by powerful people

It’s a common trope in criminal justice stories that the known pedophile fears being in prison... because even murderers won’t accept him.

I presume there’s some reality behind the trope

[cab67]

67. There is...

...but I don’t think Epstein was in general population.

[LisaL]

73. As far as I can tell he was by himself in a cell.

[JonLP24]

76. I don't really trust things that happen in prison at face value

[Frances]

77. Trump must be involved at some level

Because he’s retweeting the accusation that Bill Clinton did it, and Trump always accuses someone else for things he did himself

[Pisces]

78. Right. He's in prison facing a lot of time and horrible

Treatment. He has a lot of info on powerful people. Hmm,
I wonder if some of those powerful people wanted to ensure silence. Seems very plausible.

[Crunchy Frog]

81. Why I don't necessarily buy the notion that extremely wealthy, powerful men

are incapable of foul play when they're at risk of exposure that could wreck their lives. And why I don't necessarily believe that these thoughts fit the definition of a "conspiracy theory" (as it's normally used on this site).

[Kilgore]

83. I agree, but it feeds the tinfoil hat crowd

Life just goes down easier with a conspiracy theory to cling to.

[cab67]

88. Remorse has nothing to do with it.

[Joe941]

87. Pushing a conspiracy theory seems to the in thing to do.

TRump has his.
Joe scarbrough has his.
Many here have one.
But you know sometimes a duck really is.just a duck.

[TSIAS]

89. He might not be dead

I could see him hanging out on some remote island with Andy Kaufman, Tupac Shakur, and Elvis Presley.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

90. I have an Idea... let's wait a few more days instead of 'guessing'. n/t