Glenn Kirschner is suspicious. Go ahead, discount him.

[triron]

Link to tweet

[DeminPennswoods]

1. MSNBC is on conspiracy theory overload today

fwiw.

[triron]

2. Why do you label it that way???

[DeminPennswoods]

4. Because that's what it is

So far, no facts, other than Epsteins is dead, are known or have been established. Everything is just speculation right now.

[MarcA]

5. Unlike the usual anti-conspiracy overload. n/t

[SCantiGOP]

17. I have a clue:

and it was Hillary, in the cell, with a noose

Seriously, why is suicide not the major leading theory for a 66 year old man facing the rest of his life in prison as a pervert child molester? Unless he was involved in faking the moon landing?

[Trueblue Texan]

20. BECAUSE of the OBVIOUS that was in the original post.

He was the MOST dangerous inmate/witness in all the world. Why would he not be the most monitored inmate? THAT is what is so suspicious.

[Blue_true]

36. BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!! nt

[Chemisse]

34. Because the motives for killing him were multiple and powerful. n/t

[Blue_true]

35. What people are asking is HOW he could have gotten the tools to kill himself.

His situation was desperate. He tried to kill himself about two weeks ago. Yet reports say that he was back in general population and off suicide watch. None of that sound suspicious to you? If not suspicious, then there was a mind-boggling amount of incompetence by officials that were charged with insuring that Epstein stood trial.

[SCVDem]

25. Are you sure he's dead? nt

[William Seger]

18. Well, no, it's a "conspiracy hypothesis" at this point

If there's no evidence to support it, and in fact evidence that refutes it, it will be upgraded to a conspiracy theory.

[warmfeet]

38. Everything said, so far,

is conjecture, speculation and, perhaps, hypothesis.

Nothing yet points in any particular direction.

Going forward, I hope this gets covered like stink on shit. It smells bad, and I intend to follow the odor, as do many others on this website.

[jberryhill]

42. You sir, are a gem

[BeyondGeography]

30. That's what happens when a notorious high-value suicidal inmate

is taken off suicide watch then kills himself.

I think the suicide is real. But so is the incompetence. And that’s by far the kindest word for it.

[Mike 03]

3. See how Kirschner sets himself up to be unsatisfied either way?

First off, I don't discount him, but...

If you say "we need a reliable autopsy", and the autopsy doesn't come back the way you hope, then... it's not a "legit autopsy". How does this ever end?

[StarfishSaver]

39. One of the beauties of conspiracy theories

They can never be disproven since any evidence that debunks the conspiracy is simply additional proof of the conspiracy.

[jberryhill]

44. That is one of the coolest things to see in action

What gets me is that the “he was murdered” camp is not going to get into an argument with the “he’s not really dead” camp.

It’s like the two guys in the asylum who think they’re Napoleon. They don’t argue with each other.

[yardwork]

6. Seth Abramson makes a good point. Why wasn't Epstein on suicide watch?

I suspect the answer is that he paid somebody to let him die, because he didn't want to spend the rest of his life in prison. But at the very least it's a scandal that such a high profile at-risk inmate wasn't protected.

[cab67]

19. It's not as easy to spot someone about to commit suicide as some people think.

From what i’ve read, suicide watch is so restrictive that inmates will work hard to get out of it, not to commit suicide but because it’s so unpleasant. It’s not easy to determine motivations.

[yardwork]

41. He tried to kill himself a few weeks ago.

[cab67]

46. There's still some question about that.

He was sharing a cell with a cop suspected of murder.

But even if it was a suicide attempt (and I tend to think it was), he was on suicide watch for a couple of weeks. That's plenty of time for someone to convince even a trained psychologist or psychiatrist that he or she is no longer a danger to him or herself.

(Being married to a clinical psychologist is giving me perspectives I'm not sure I want.)

[LiberalArkie]

23. People break out of prison all the time.

[3Hotdogs]

24. Where, in a federal prison, did he get access to cash to give to the cooperating prison staff?

Think Whitey Bulger.

[hlthe2b]

7. Perhaps the very few who have derided the DU community for questioning this death

and condescendingly accused many of promoting conspiracy theory, might take note. Whether they have personal legal experience or not does not make them experts on the procedures and functionings of MCC, the Federal facility where Epstein was held nor give them unique insight-- beyond what is being reported-- as to what happened.

In defense of the rest of DU, there is nothing wrong with discussing what the likes of Joyce Vance, Paul Butler, Glenn Kirshner, Preet Bharara, Harry Litman and former FBI Assistant Director, Frank Figliuzzi have said and posted themselves.

Such as:

Link to tweet

[Kingofalldems]

8. Exactly. It's as if the Trump administration has integrity.

It doesn't have a shred and everything should be questioned.

[hlthe2b]

9. Certainly when the REAL experts are questioning, an FBI/IG investigation has BEGUN, and

no real detail account of what happened has been released, I think the very vocal and very condescending armchair "self-proclaimed experts" should hit pause for the indefinite future.

[cwydro]

10. Oh goodness gracious.

Don’t get your knickers in such a bunch.

This is a DISCUSSION board.

[hlthe2b]

11. So you post a condescending reply to me? How very apropos of what I'm saying.

Referring to the poster's comment quoted verbatim: "Don’t get your knickers in such a bunch".

[cwydro]

12. Why do you care so much what others think?

Myself and some others find the various theories amusing.

Why should that bother you? I don’t get that.

[hlthe2b]

13. "Myself and some others"

[cwydro]

14. Good, I'm glad I was able to cheer you up.

I hate seeing people with their feelings hurt here. On the internet. On a discussion board.

[DeminPennswoods]

26. It's all speculation even if these analysts

are familiar with federal lock ups.

[hlthe2b]

31. That is flat out ridiculous. Former FED wardens are also questioning procedures.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/prison-experts-are-stunned-angry-jeffrey-epstein-was-taken-suicide-n1041121

In your "logic", EVERYTHING is speculative--including whether or not the sun comes up tomorrow. There would be no need for death investigations, coroner reviews, evidence collection & documentation because apparently in your mind, all deaths are natural and none are "suspicious". To suggest otherwise, given your comments/logic, would be to promote conspiracy theory.

It strains credulity to not even QUESTION what happened. Most of us learned to question the tooth fairy and Santa Claus long ago. The Trump administration is no more believable.

But, I surely note a lot of bots on twitter trying to convince all of us otherwise. hmmm.

[DeminPennswoods]

50. Nobody can draw conclusions because nobody has any facts,

except that Epstein is dead. Right now, everything is just speculation and guesswork.

[hlthe2b]

55. And NO ONE has DRAWN any CONCLUSIONS. THAT's the point.

However, given even Barr/DOJ is calling for an investigation into what happened, that clearly demolishes your point. The facts are not yet known. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous and foolish.

[Codeine]

15. Suspicious makes perfect sense.

I think people are taking exception to the fact that so many have immediately convinced themselves that Epstein was offed by whichever dark cabal they believe runs the world (Clintons/Deep State/Trump/Jooz/Satanic Rothschilds/what have you) and will never be convinced by any evidence showing that he suicided, assuming that is the case.

I myself am inclined to believe that he did himself in free of any outside conspiratorial assistance, but if evidence emerges saying otherwise I’ll happily change my mind. I don’t think the same can be said of the other side of this disagreement.

[Trueblue Texan]

22. he may have very well have offed himself, but he...

...of ALL PEOPLE should have been the most-watched prisoner in history. I have no trouble believing they left him to his own devices with all the equipment he needed to get rid of himself, a witness that was most inconvenient for some powerful people. Whatever the method, he's dead now, a situation that no doubt many are grateful for today. I hope and pray there is enough evidence left that it doesn't matter that he is dead. I've been worried since they arrested him that he'd be dead before a trial could happen. How many others had the same concern?

[Ilsa]

33. I could be convinced after a thorough investigation. nt

[Shaddox]

16. So bill Barr has set a house on fire somewhere to coverup for Epstein's autoerotic asphyxiation?

[Hortensis]

21. A prosecutor who quotes Seth Abramson?! Plummeted credibility.

Every person who's decided this hanging is anything from planned negligence, to Trump murder, to the Clinton's whisking him off to Mars, has just as much information as Abramson, and has arrived at the same place -- conviction and nothing else.

[mr_lebowski]

28. I think it may be the other way around ... not a twitter working expert but that's what I assumed nt

[Pepsidog]

27. Seth is absolutely correct. This has a very foul odor

[triron]

29. 2nd that.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

32. Third that! The very people in charge of Epstein were the ones his death would benefit most.

And they are already dishonest, thieving, murderer-loving scum. They don't get any benefit of the doubt from me.

[StarfishSaver]

37. The autopsy will be conducted by local authorities, not the feds

[triron]

40. And you know this how?

[StarfishSaver]

49. Because I looked it up

One of numerous sources:
https://www.cbsnews.com/live-news/jeffrey-epstein-died-financier-sex-trafficking-charges-dead-suicide-today-2019-08-10-live-updates/

[Pathwalker]

43. Then, there's this: Bill Barr's love of vigillante justice.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212361629

This death is very convenient.

[Raine1967]

45. There is a difference between having suspicion, wondering about conspiracy AND

believing a conspiracy theory. Kirshner and Abramson are right to question what happened today. That doesn't make them Conspiracy theorists.

I generally believe a lot of good people don't see the difference.

I am suspicious about the events surrounding his death.

I am curious if there was a conspiracy that allowed him to commit suicide.

When we get to a point where we question the people asking the questions about such a big story and accuse them of being conspiracy theorists, we are in deep trouble.

[OxQQme]

47. Silly people. The chef did it.

Asphyxiation by ingested drugs.
Classic.

First 'medic',
back to the camera,
blocking the view,
stuffs a sock down his throat.

Speculation run amuck.

[pecosbob]

48. I don't need any more conspriracy theories

but IMO this is about a clear a situation that one could find where everything and everyone involved should be investigated. This is like Putin taking Navalny into custody and him dying by falling from a window that afternoon. Justice is inherently involved or at fault...they had custody of the highest profile prisoner on the planet and they f*cked up, or they let it happen, or they made it happen. One of those three things is true. Time for an independent counsel. No conspiracies, no BS, no clown cars...an actual investigation.

[GeorgeGist]

51. Just remember fellow DUers ...

William Barr maybe the consigliere for the US division of the Russian Mafia.

[rickford66]

52. Occam's Razor

Who benefits from his death ?

[jberryhill]

53. Ummm... I don't think that's Occam's Razor

[rickford66]

54. Epstein benefited.

Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor) is a principle from philosophy. Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the one that requires the least speculation is usually correct. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation.

It's obvious he had the opportunity and took it.

[jberryhill]

59. "Cui Bono" is not Occam's Razor

[rickford66]

61. "the least speculation is usually correct"

[RandiFan1290]

60. Every time the republicons get into trouble

the same group shows up and tries to distract us by throwing mud in our face. Please ignore them.


Please ignore them

[uponit7771]

56. I guess this guys a 100% CT too :rolleyes:

[MadDAsHell]

57. There are hundreds of people on death row. "Noone" was more in danger of suicide?

I realize Abramson lives and dies by the number of retweets he gets, but this over the top rhetoric lacks credibility.

[colsohlibgal]

58. Suspicion Makes Sense In This Case

His sick life took an extreme turn for the worse so suicide wouldn’t be a shock. On the other hand Barr is all about protecting Orange Doofus and Silencing this Creep sure helps his insane boss.

I sure wouldn’t rule out this being murder.