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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums"Fredo" and Chris Cuomo and Italian Americans
For those who are parsing that the term "Fredo" wasn't derogatory towards both Chris Cuomo and Italian Americans:
1) I wouldn't call the character, Fredo, in The Godfather as an exemplary representative of Italian Americans;
2) If CC had been labeled "Guido," would that have made a difference?
3) Italian Americans are only a couple of generations away from the status imposed upon Central and South Americans. (Remember WOP -- "without a passport" or "garlic eaters" in It's A Wonderful Life?)
Should the moniker of "Fredo" be excused when it's an insult against a group of AMERICANS?
Squinch
(50,946 posts)I am not saying Fredo is not a slur. It is. But the Godfather story glorifies skeezy Italian criminals, and Michael is the skeeziest and most criminal.
That being said, I do love the movies.
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)Definitely not Fredo-like... but also not in a good way.
hlthe2b
(102,225 posts)manner of Fredo at all, which implies stupid, cowardly and incompetent, while Michael implies ruthless criminality.
Obviously, most of us would not wish either comparison, but Fredo is undoubtedly the most insulting.
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)I would much rather be seen as stupid/cowardly/incompetent than as a ruthless violent criminal.
hlthe2b
(102,225 posts)FBaggins
(26,727 posts)Neither would focus on the characters Italian-ness.
hlthe2b
(102,225 posts)what is an insult and what is not. It is the recipient to decide. I find this entire discussion pitting one slur against another, one population, one race, one ethnicity against another in the attempt to decide which slur is worst-- to be ridiculously condescending and inappropriate.
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)Isn't that what you're doing by insisting that it's an ethnic slur?
It is the recipient to decide.
Not quite. It's for the recipient to decide whether he's insulted... it isn't for him to decide "what was in the mind of the verbal assaulter" - let alone to speak for everyone with an Italian ancestor or everyone who ever watched a particular movie.
For the record... I'm perfectly capable of looking at negative character traits of fictional characters without assuming that those traits are associated with his race/gender/whatever. Why aren't you?
hlthe2b
(102,225 posts)to believe YOU get to decide for EVERYONE how to perceive a slur aimed at them It is not dissimilar to the parade of defenders on RW media justifying Trump's every utterance because THEY don't think it is wrong to use his horrific language and verbal assaults. Such behavior is not progressive in my book. Slurs you don't find inappropriate because they aren't aimed at YOU do not automatically become acceptable.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)But it's also possible for others to consider objectively whether a term is an ethnic slur aimed at an entire group since the latter is based not on personal interaction and perception but on history, usage and other objective factors.
History and usage do not support a conclusion that "Fredo" is a slur against all Italians.
hlthe2b
(102,225 posts)us know, the youth who have never experienced that but endeavor to be cool and say the word is just fine because they are "repurposing it" or the Brits use it without offense or whatever, this is bullshit. If you aren't a member of the group being attacked then you don't get to decide if it is a slur or not. That is the height of arrogance.
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)And ironic re: "condescending".
hlthe2b
(102,225 posts)Tell me again how I'm the one claiming I can get into others' minds and declare what they're thinking.
hlthe2b
(102,225 posts)FBaggins
(26,727 posts)... the irony.
hlthe2b
(102,225 posts)I will take that as a minute amount of self-awareness.
BannonsLiver
(16,369 posts)And one reason why the person you are responding to has a weak point.
dsc
(52,155 posts)hlthe2b
(102,225 posts)for me to evaluate the relative impact of a slur against a group to which I do not belong. To me, the "n" word will always be a special level of nasty, but then again, I feel that intensively about the "c" word leveled against me and other women throughout our lives. Some who have naively tried to justify use or reclaiming of that word-- with all the sensitivity of a self-absorbed teenager--would obviously not agree--but they never experienced the damage and harm, just as I've never experienced the impacts of being called a "WOP" or another such slur.
So, I would think it highly inappropriate to tell Cuomo that his reaction to "Fredo" or any other slur was not as consequential as the "n" word.
We need not play into that "game" that the RW would dearly love us to adopt.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)hlthe2b
(102,225 posts)Not to mention context-free.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)hlthe2b
(102,225 posts)Would you likewise tell an African American friend/colleague that they must accept being called the "N" word because they'd once quoted a rap song that included it?
Good to know...
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Cuomo and Sliwa laughed about it in the interview....nothing curious about it...and your insinuation...."Would you likewise tell an African American......" utter BS!!
Sliwa.....There is a group of people politicos who always hint they might run, but not necessarily plunge all the way, and they are members of la Cuomo Nostra.
Cuomo.....Who am I, then, Fredo?
Sliwa.....Yes, exactly, So you better be careful that your brother Andrew doesnt kiss you on both cheeks and then all of a sudden they take you out on the middle of the lake and wheres Chris?
Cuomo.....He kisses me plenty because hes a great big brother,
hlthe2b
(102,225 posts)what is and is NOT a slur. That is a level of arrogance that is adopted by the RW as they deride the left for being too "PC" while they simultaneously defend all manner of overt racism, bigotry, misogyny on a regular basis. Shame on you if you are buying into that.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)down a set of stairs for calling him fredo.....not buying the double standard BS.
From you or anyone else.
Cuomo over reacted and admitted it in his tweet.
Link to tweet
hlthe2b
(102,225 posts)I suppose you think if a female friend or family member has ever used the word "bitch" then you have a right to call them one and they should have no right to be offended. Again, you are shameful in this argument. Absolutely so.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)You can try to attach straw men to me all you want....crap that would never/has never occurred...fact remains Sliwa and Cuomo joked about it....
hlthe2b
(102,225 posts)this is your third strawman to date so, no. But, feel free to have the last word. It will undoubtedly be critically important to you.
Historic NY
(37,449 posts)other than to push his buttons and then pretend he thought that was his name. Sure sounds like someone wanted to setup an exchange.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)...dude sounds like a bit of a goober in the video.. he thought that was his name...does it justify a threat of being thrown down a set of stairs?
Let's do the more likely deal...a reference to the Godfather movie fredo...does it justify a threat of being thrown down a set of stairs?
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)The "button" that says "your father and brother are so much more significant than you are"
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)than that same speculation you keep alleging is untrue.
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)One is in fairly common use (including by Cuomo himself and the Italian side of my family - thus my own perspective)... and I can't find a reference to the second usage prior to the current debate.
My understanding is that Cuomo attributes the nickname to Limbaugh calling him that. A quick search found him saying "the Fredo of the Cuomo family". That's pretty clearly the "less-successful sibling" connotation rather than a generic anti-Italian slur.
I'm still waiting for someone to back up the slur connotation with something other than just the claim itself. I was previously asked about "Guido" and Wikipedia lists " North American slang term, often derogatory, for a working-class urban Italian American. The guido stereotype is multi-faceted. Originally, it was used as a demeaning term for Italian Americans in general. More recently, it has come to refer to Italian Americans who conduct themselves in an overtly macho manner.[1] "
I have yet to see anything similar for "Fredo". But I did find this:
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/07/donald-trump-jr-fredo-godfather
https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/7/11/15952652/donald-trump-jr-fredo-corleone-godfather
Does anyone think that they were slurring Trump Jr. for his Italian heritage?
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)Why do you only type "'N' word" yet type out "Fredo" if they're so similarly offensive?
Just wondering.
hlthe2b
(102,225 posts)Is that REALLY so hard to grasp? Similarly "bitch" is an acceptable term for a female canine, yet do you likewise defend its use as a gender-specific slur?
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)FBaggins
(26,727 posts)I wouldn't personally use a name that offensive for someone outside of required reference to that person... but I can't say it's an unreasonable rationale.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)emmaverybo
(8,144 posts)is simply explaining what this slur is like for an Italian-American, like not meaning the same as. He is not qualifying the degree of harm, or comparing Italian-American history with African-American.
He could have said the slur is like to an Italian American (meaning feels like), many other ethnic slurs with terrible connotations, but since today we are focused on black American experience, he referred to a common slur most Americans know is unacceptable.
Historical slurs against new Italian immigrants were used in the context of a time when, in the criminological field, Southern Italian immigrants were considered a criminal type based on a physiognomy described as simian. Books contained measurements, photos, descriptions by facial features and head shape. Many more dark complected Italian-Americans were subjected to police harassment and suspicion, took up a fair share of the prison population, and were called swarthy, greasy, sinister. I believe Cuomo is a descendant of Southern Italians, associated notbtoo long ago, in the public mind, with the Mafia.
Any racial or ethnic slur arises out of discriminatory attitudes and practices. All have implications
entailing historical injustices, current bigoted attitudes, hatred that is often quite inclusive. Cuomo could have said Fredo for Italian Americans is like Paddy. Dont think the guy baiting him would have gotten it. Despite Fredo, by no means, being equivalent to the slur Cuomo said it is subjectively like, there are some points of comparison, features universal to all ethnic and racial slurs,
exclusive to none. It is used to demean, shame, and attack an individual for her being a member of
a group which is maligned and stereotyped.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)against Italian Americans.
You could say that about most every character in the movie.
Search DU for references to "Fredo". See who it has been used about most often:
Example:
https://upload.democraticunderground.com/100210169092
True Dough
(17,301 posts)but I also agree with the poster above (and other DUers who've stated as much) that attempting to equate it with the "N" word is flat-out wrong.
Also, Cuomo comes off as waaaay too reactionary. He could have told the guy off in a much calmer fashion. The viral video is doing little for his image and is cementing his nickname as "Fredo" Cuomo. It's counterproductive.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)like he is always sedated.
Behind the curve on this - what prompted the guy to call Cuomo Fredo?
True Dough
(17,301 posts)And, it's been said, Rush Limbaugh has been in the habit of calling Cuomo "Fredo," so maybe that guy picked it up from everyone's least favorite talk radio host.
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)It was derogatory toward Cuomo... but isn't an ethnic slur toward Italian Americans in general.
1) This operates against the argument. Fredo is not an example that represents Italian Americans. The name is thus an insult implying the recipient is of like character... not that he is of Italian descent.
2) Slightly... since "Guido" is more commonly associated with the mafia in real life and not just a character in a movie and does have a history of referring to Italian males in general. But neither approaches the word he compared it to.
3) True. That doesn't mean that the name of any fictional character who happens to be of Italian descent becomes a slut against anyone else. As already pointed out "Michael" isn't exactly a slur.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,324 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)It's a two sides insult. The first, and most obvious is calling him dumb.
The second, and more nefarious is equating him with a mafia character. That is how Italians are represented in this country in popular media and it is a vicious stereotype. The Sons of Italy exists to fight this very thing
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)I've seen you make that second connection several times now... without supporting it.
That isn't how fiction works. When you tell a story it exists within a certain universe/structure, but the character is independent of that structure. If we talk of a "Romeo" we might be talking about young love unwilling to go on without the object of his affection... but we aren't saying anything about people from Verona. We can change to "West Side Story" and replace feuding families with racial/gang tensions of the Jets/Sharks... but Tony is the same character. Maria is from Puerto Rico (and the clash in the background is clearly racial in nature), but she's just a retelling of Juliett. You could associate someone with the character of "Maria" to say that she's young and beautiful and overly quick to fall deeply in love without seeing faults that others in her group view through their own bias... but you wouldn't be limited to using the label to Puerto Rican women. There are lots of Marias and Tonys out there.
If he has negative character traits, then calling someone "a Romeo" could be an insult (as this was no doubt intended to be)... but it would be associated with those character traits... which are independent of his background in that telling of the story (as opposed to The Brothers Karamazov or King Lear where similar characters have entirely different backgrounds).
If "Vader" became an insulting name to call people... it would have little to nothing to do with whether the target of the insult had emigrated to Tatooine.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)It is the truth. All it proves is that you are so accustomed to it, you are immune.
It is the same as calling a black man a "thug" which gets lots of action on DU.
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)You have yet to demonstrate that your perspective should carry any weight. Those associating the term with the character's racial identity have a far more valid point than this nonsensical "he was in the mafia" connection. There were lots of characters that better depict that characteristic than Fredo (who actually betrays the family).
It is the same as calling a black man a "thug" which gets lots of action on DU.
You probably don't realize that you just gave your point away. Is it an insult to a black man because it's associating him with a Muslim tribe in India???
On edit - And yes... I'm Italian. Nobody on our family chat has ever associated the term with Italians in general. Those who have seen the movie know exactly what the attack implies. My grandfather used to refer to Marvin Bush as "Fredo" all the time.
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Dennis Donovan
(18,770 posts)...rather, it was about Chris not being Governor, like his brother Andrew and his father, Mario. Remember, Fredo was the ne'er-do-well son of Vito - the one they called dumb, not "smaht".
However, Chris' success as a journalist can't be denied, although an argument could be made that his last name helped his career along?
no_hypocrisy
(46,080 posts)His ancestry was addressed and attacked via a fictional Italian-American.
Analogy: German-Americans are still confused with Nazis and the Third Reich. Even the ones born after 1945. You wouldn't address a German-American as "Adolf" unless you want to insult Germans.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)It applies to anyone seen as weak and hapless, regardless of ethnicity. It's no more a slur against Italians than calling someone who spins fantasizes a "Walter Mitty" is a slur against white men.
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)Fredo is a character who happens to be Italian. None of his character traits are uniquely Italian... but they werent casting aliens. One can pick at those traits without indicting the character of everyone else with a similar accent.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Because other white people are considered being criminals based only on their surname.
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)I think if Cuomo was called "Mr. Corleone" it would be easier to associate the label with organized crime.
walkingman
(7,595 posts)offender is a pussy with a big mouth.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)"Fredo" is an insult and it may be particularly insulting to Italians on certain contexts. As a black American, I am very reluctant to tell other people that something isn't offensive, but I strongly disagree that it's on the par of the n word.
This is the difference. The n word is attached to and seasoned by centuries of cruelty, ugliness, criminality, genocide, lynchings, etc. It is used almost exclusively to describe blacks and is applied to any and all black people and is unrelated to any characteristic other than blackness.
On the other hand, "Fredo" arose from a character - an Italian character created by an Italian, brought to life by an Italian and played by an Italian. The character was not a stereotype and wasn't a derogatory depiction of Italians. Fredo is memorable because he was pathetic and doomed, but the pathos and fate was universally human, not ethnic.
When someone calls a person a "nigger," we learn nothing about that person - whether they're rich, poor, stupid, brilliant, etc - except that they're black. It's not a description. It's a threat, intended to wound, to strike fear and the hundreds of years of information surrounding it does just that - it's like dipping a spear in poison.
But "Fredo" isn't a threat and doesn't carry poison. It's a description. Anyone who behaves a certain way can be a "Fredo." When someone is called a "Fredo" we don't know their race, ethnicity, national origin or economic status. But we do know they're being accused of being hapless and it too bright and are likely the weak link in their family.
"Fredo" is the equivalent of calling someone a "Pollyanna," or a "Little Lord Fauntleroy." There is no equivalent for "nigger."
"Fredo" is an insult but I don't see it as a slur.
Gidney N Cloyd
(19,833 posts)Oregon1947
(43 posts)an ethnic slur. Chris needs to get off the roids. A professional isn't supposed to handle stupidity by threatening to kill someone.
no_hypocrisy
(46,080 posts)Jews rightfully bristle when the name Shylock (from "Merchant of Venice" ) is invoked due to his reprehensible character traits.
Why should "Fredo" be given a free pass b/c the name is associated with a fictional character?
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)insult and demean Jews. The very characteristics that make up the character - greed, avarice, sneaky, dangerous, hook nose, etc. - were ugly stereotypes of Jews that were personified into the Shylock character that has since been used to further demean Jews.
That's very different than Fredo. Fredo's negative characteristics - weakness, haplessness, stupidity - were not and are not stereotypes of Italians and his character flaws were unrelated to his ethnicity. And "Fredo" insult doesn't play on Italian stereotypes nor is it limited to Italians as targets. "Fredo" ≠ "Shylock"
Throck
(2,520 posts)Over the years because of their public positions both Chris and Andy have taken shots at one another. Not much difference between them and other brothers. I'll bet Chris and Andy had a good laugh over it.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)It's a disgusting stereotype and to hear people on DU defend it is abhorrent.
A race of people who essentially ruled the world for a millennia, established our form of government, led the Renaissance, has a cuisine that rivals to a lesser degree French and Chinese, and boast some of the worlds greatest scientist are always represented in American culture as mafia.
This is akin to representing all black people as thugs or Mexican people as lazy.
It's putrid.
The largest mass lynching in America was perpetrated against Sicilian immigrants. Theodore Roosevelt called it a "good thing to show the dagos their place"
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)It is based on a specific character trait not limited to Italians.
It's not akin to calling all black people anything since "Fredo" does not characterize all Italians as anything.
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)We now return you to your regularly-scheduled political discussion group.
Talitha
(6,581 posts)... or heard the name 'Fredo' before all this happened.
TBH, I thought they mis-spelled 'Frodo' - from the Ring trilogy.
NOW you're being offensive!
SweetieD
(1,660 posts)Manner and because Cuomo is Italian. It doesn't matter if it isn't some long standing slur. The only reason the guy said it was because of ethnicity.
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)I can't read his mind (he claims he had no idea it wasn't his name)... but it's certainly intended as an insult by the people (Limbaugh, etc.) who call him that all the time. I think it's reasonable for Cuomo to take it as a personal insult. To your point... that should be enough.
But it's ridiculous to say ethnicity was the reason (let alone the only reason). They're clearly saying that he's the less-capable younger brother. Dad was the former three-time governor of the third-largest state and big brother is the current governor of the third-largest state... while he's just a mid-tier host on the third-tier cable news network.
Just like the character Fredo... compared to any other member of some other family, he would be a substantial force. But in his family he's an also-ran.
Plenty insulting... without ever knowing where his family comes from.
tblue37
(65,318 posts)was very real.
Dad changed his name from Salvatore Giovanni to Samuel John when he joined the Air Force in WWII, to avoid prejudice and because we were at war with Italy. (He was actually at Pearl Harbor when it was bombed.)
The Irish suffered similar prejudice as immigrants. Neither they not the Italians were considered "white" at one time. Now way too many people with Irish and Italian immigrant backgrounds turn the same prejudice against immigrants from other countries.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)"Really white". The same woman asked me about my name a few days before and when I said it's Italian she asked if I was adopted because I wasn't "greasy looking".
JustAnotherGen
(31,810 posts)And he agrees. But not about Tuscans and such!
He's actually an Italian Citizen and we have a home there - not a US Citizen at all.
If you tell a Calabrese Mountain person they are 'white' - they will rip your head off. White people are Germans, Norwegians, Brits, Northern Italians . . .
Calabrese have deep roots in Greece and all that it implies.
He doesn't put the Islands folks in the White Category either - their roots are different than the Calabrese and the Northerners.
By that same token - if your family has been in the USA two or three generations - you aren't Italian at all <--- according to the Gio.
I'm Italian (his wife by citizenship) and they are not - and he doesn't understand why they panty bunch because most Americans view Italians as white folks. :lmao:
Which once again pisses an actual Calabrese immigrant right off!
Disclaimer for any Italian Americans - It's not easy being me. Your grandmother lived this hell - especially if your grand daddy was Calabrese! (stubborn hard headed temperamental men)
Stinky The Clown
(67,786 posts). . . . . YUP!
LOL
AncientGeezer
(2,146 posts)Sliwa.....There is a group of people politicos who always hint they might run, but not necessarily plunge all the way, and they are members of la Cuomo Nostra.
Cuomo.....Who am I, then, Fredo?
Sliwa.....Yes, exactly, So you better be careful that your brother Andrew doesnt kiss you on both cheeks and then all of a sudden they take you out on the middle of the lake and wheres Chris?
Cuomo.....He kisses me plenty because hes a great big brother,
FBaggins
(26,727 posts)As I mentioned above. My (Italian) grandfather used to refer to Marvin (and Neal) Bush as "Fredo"
Was he saying anything about his (nonexistent) Italian heritage?
Nope... it was obviously (Dad was head of the CIA and President... older brothers were both governors of large states and one was also president... you're a disappointment)
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)Last edited Thu Aug 15, 2019, 10:56 AM - Edit history (2)
It is a perjorative, but not an Italian perjorative.
It is an insult to anyone to be called a Fredo.
Its akin to Benedict Arnold.
eta: fixed autocorrect typo
Stinky The Clown
(67,786 posts)To be VERY fair, it is hardly as big a deal as other ethnicities, but it exists. For as far back as I can recall, people trying to remember my name call me "Tony". It isn't even close to my name But "Tony" while not an exclusively Italian name is still associated with us. It is sorta like calling a Scot "Jimmy" or a black person "LeRoy" All fine, real names but in the hands of some people at least a slap if not an intentional slur.
So now there's "Fredo". The root of the Italian slur in it is discussed elsewhere in this thread.
It is just the latest. We used to WOPs, which derived from "With Out Papers". Then we were Guineas - a slang/slur that actually started out directed at black people (from Guinea, in Africa), and aimed at us for our own dark skin. Then Dagos, as I understood it from my parents' and grandparents' generation, meant low skilled day laborers.
You'll see how this tracks with today's "lesser" ethnicities.
Ignorant fucking assholes resort to such words. I don't blame Chris Cuomo. I feel bad that it became public.
LArider
(69 posts)every character in a film or television show could be a racial slur?