General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDo Democrats have enough evidence to impeach ?
If so, then the question must be, why not?
Are they fearful of political consequences? If that is the case, then we should ask if these folks are truly representing our interests? Are they representing the best interests of our nation?
If they were truly representing the interests of the nation, they would not say such nonsense as, "They would never convict in the Senate".
Instead, they would implore and persuade enough Senators to vote for their country, rather than their Party. They would not surrender to their fears and political desires.
If indeed Donald Trump is as incompetent, unstable, dangerous, and unpredictable as most people believe, then do we not have a responsibility to get him out of office as soon as possible? Who should we blame for letting him continue to tear down our country and our democracy?
Who should the people blame if Donald Trump is still on the ticket in November 2020 ?
lame54
(35,268 posts)Their will never be enough for Moscow Mitch
kentuck
(111,056 posts)Moscow Mitch would never go along with it?
Excuse me, but I think that is very, very weak.
lame54
(35,268 posts)You decide
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I don't see why this is so hard for you to understand. "TRUMP VINDICATED" as a headline in every paper is not what we want when we're trying to run against him.
kentuck
(111,056 posts)...only if you choose to believe it.
Only if you choose not to challenge it.
Then, of course, you lose. The facts lose.
What will Trump be vindicated from?
Yes, if the Democrats choose to lie down and surrender, Trump will surely win and his supporters will feel vindicated.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Sorry, you're just wrong here, and I'm glad people who actually understand optics are in charge rather than people who think like you.
kentuck
(111,056 posts)Give us a little more info.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)He's bleeding support from Republicans right now, which is what we want. They're not going to switch parties, but they're also probably not going to vote. Impeachment galvanizes them and gets them out to the polls for Trump. Same reason Gingrich lost seats after impeachment.
kentuck
(111,056 posts)How do we know that impeachment will "get them out to the polls"? The more they find out about his criminal acts, the more they will love him? I'm not sure that makes a lot of sense? If he is behind in the swing states right now, what is the reason for that?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Jesus Christ, Kentuck, have you been sleeping for the past 2 and a half years?!?! YES, empirically the more they find out about his criminal acts the more they love him.
kentuck
(111,056 posts)But, I am not as certain as you that other Republicans or Independents on the fence would feel the same way. I don't believe there is any empirical evidence of that. We might think so, but we don't know for sure.
FOX News has a poll out today showing his unfavorable rating at an almost all-time high.
In my opinion, people are slowly learning the facts.
I have little doubt but that he would claim victory and vindication if the Democrats do not impeach.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I see zero evidence republicans would distance themselves from Trump regardless of his actions.
We've witnessed some pretty high-grade vulgarity from him, from his punch to the face of their Family Values branding, to him pulling the rug out from under their Fiscal Responsibility branding, the GOP hasn't done so much as peep a word of admonishment.
So it then begs the question: what specifically leads you to believe this has changed in some measurable way?
kentuck
(111,056 posts)He is a threat to national security and should be removed from office.
However, when we hear that 95% of the Republican Party support him, we should not assume that is the same Republican Party that voted for him in 2016. The results in the 2018 midterms was not a good sign for Republicans, in my opinion. Trump wanted that election to be about him. If it was, he lost in a landslide.
He could lose half the Republican Party and still have 95% support from the remaining Republican Party. But, I think I am more heartened by the midterm results than the Democratic Party is, in general.
But, you are correct that he has not heard a peep of a word of admonishment from the GOP.
SidneyR
(84 posts)The hesitation is rooted in the fact that the Senate won't convict after the House brings impeachment charges, leaving Trump triumphantly claiming the biased Dems tried to persecute him for nothing but the Senate completely exonerated him. Trump would emerge stronger than ever, with his base all fired up.
kentuck
(111,056 posts)....but quite a bit in Mitch McConnell and the Republicans?
The Senate would exonerate him in words. But the reality would remain. He is an incompetent, criminal blow-hard.
His base all fired up? All 28% of them?
Be afraid, Democrats. Be very afraid.
Fullduplexxx
(7,846 posts)Bettie
(16,077 posts)please in all things, why are they passing legislation that they know for a fact will never see the light of day?
If Moscow Mitch is the only person who matters in government, then why do anything that he doesn't like? Perhaps they should just bow before him and beg his indulgence by asking what his orders are.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,555 posts)Only congress can impeach, and clearly there is plenty of evidence, just not the political will.
TheRealNorth
(9,471 posts)And Moscow Mitch would still protect Trump.
bearsfootball516
(6,373 posts)But as far as who the people should blame if Trump is on the ticket, that's Senate Republicans. They'll never convict.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Look, the GOP has long ago abdicated their responsibility to elected office. They are not going to vote to impeach no matter what comes to light.
The question is what scenario has better optics for Democrats: impeaching and not succeeded, or yelling about what criminal Donald Trump while refusing to impeach.
kentuck
(111,056 posts)It is not about "optics".
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Yes, there are moral/ethical/legal reasons act. But morals and ethics don't vote.
Incidentally, I'm for impeachment. I think as long as we're going to talk about what an incompetent criminal Donald Trump is, we should be prepared to use every tool at our disposal.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)And may encompass multiple mechanisms of culture simultaneously.
Finding the objective measure of how each of those concepts are weighted relative one to the other is the elusive bone.
maxsolomon
(33,252 posts)The House Impeaches.
The Senate is the jury; they vote to convict. The Republican-controlled Senate will not convict the Con.
In fact, if McConnell can avoid conducting a trial presided over by Roberts, he will. The Optics of a trial, with Schiff making a public case that President Asshole COORDINATED with Wikileaks and the Rooshins, are not going to be pleasant for the GOP.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Remember, Trump polls more favorably with Republicans in the context of allegations that he colluded with Russia.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"rump polls more favorably with Republicans in the context of allegations that he colluded with Russia."
And that's a concept we're new to. So I'm not surprised at all it's a concept many will have problems with digesting while yet others may deny its very existence.
lame54
(35,268 posts)Just answering the OP
In fact - impeachment is already under way
NewJeffCT
(56,828 posts)to vote to impeach right now. So, that would be a "NO"
If they can get the entire caucus united behind impeachment and then get at least a handful of Republicans to agree with them on impeachment, THEN you can say they have enough evidence.
kentuck
(111,056 posts)1) Do the Democrats have enough votes to impeach?
2) Is there enough evidence to impeach?
dumbcat
(2,120 posts)Just need votes. I doubt any evidence gathered or presented is going to change many, if any, votes.
Even if impeached, the evidence is presented to the Senators. They sit in judgement of it. It's their votes that count. And it will be all about optics.
kentuck
(111,056 posts)...when they sit in judgement in November 2020 ?
dumbcat
(2,120 posts)Both ways. And we may not like the final tally.
fescuerescue
(4,448 posts)from R to D or D to R. Those that do, do it once in their life.
What changes from election to election is WHO gets out to vote.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)kentuck
(111,056 posts)...for some odd reason or another.
That does happen from time to time.
spanone
(135,795 posts)kentuck
(111,056 posts)I think it is very possible. It could be worse than anything they might have imagined? There will be a price to pay.
spanone
(135,795 posts)I'd rather be on the offense. Impeach.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,165 posts)If we don't impeach, one of the Trump campaign tactics will be to brag about how full of hot air the Democrats are and how terribly they have treated him. He will announce how innocent he is. and always was, and that now its obvious to everyone that Democrats were just making stuff up, and the liberal news media was their megaphone for their fake claims. That the proof is in the pudding because the Dems would have surely tried to impeach him if they could have.
And the fall out after that? He will win a second term, and then any talk of impeachment at the start of his second term will be laughed at. They will have no momentum, and probably even the MSM news will have moved on and ridicule any moves by some Democrats to revisit it. They would still need to sell ad spots, and would shrink back to the good old false equivalencies and another notch will click pushing the interpretation of "normal" further to the right, further towards fascism. I'm frightened to death what Trump will try and get away with in a second term. To the news networks, to the right to protest, to net neutrality, to setting up an even more restrictive voting suppression system including using hackable machines. So as to ensure the Republicans, and Mitch's goal of a permanent Republican State.
If we do impeach, and the predictable happens, the Republicans in the Senate do not convict, we head into the election with a population that is "woke". Yes there will be those on the far right that will be seething mad and get out all their inbred family to the polls to vote for God's wonderful gift to their country, but just as many or more will be disgusted by what they hear, and will be disgusted also that Republicans did nothing about it.
So if its a choice between doing the right thing for the country but stirring up the pot resulting in more deplorables voting, but also more independents and Never Trumpers joining us.....even if this resulted in a wash...that both groups of new voters cancelled each other out, the country still comes out ahead. Although my bet would be greater numbers would come out for us, especially in some of the swing states, compared to last election.
So what is holding this back????? Sorry but their inaction has to raise questions about if there are prominent powerful Democrats that don't want some aspects of foreign dealings in Washington exposed either. I'm not saying this is so, but they open themselves up to this kind of conjecture by the MSM, and are not looking good optically with the Democratic leadership seemingly trying desperately to keep the lid on a barrel that is overflowing with reasons, and evidence, to impeach. I also think many "part time" Democratic voters will stay home being disgusted that the Democrats did NOT have the courage of their convictions.
So in the end, if we do NOT impeach, our votes will be depressed because of witnessing this lack of leadership and responsibility to defend the country from this pall darkening the nation. While theirs will be boosted even if we don't, because the message will still be that we are a massive threat to the great Donald the Savior of white America, and that we will impeach for sure if Republicans don't get a majority hold on Washington.
kentuck
(111,056 posts)The Democrats could use the impeachment issue as an "insurance policy".
Especially if the economy turns south.
The country would be hard-pressed to withstand both a recession and an impeachment at the same time. It would be difficult.
With that in mind, the Democrats insurance policy would be to use the Courts and Congress' power to investigate, to determine whether or not Donald Trump should be impeached? They should be ready to impeach immediately after the election, assuming Donald Trump were to win the Presidency and the Democrats were to keep the House?
That would be one strategy that would make sense if they choose not to impeach at this time? Donald Trump is not going to get religion or experience some sort of great transformation between now and January 2021. It is a matter of national security that he be removed.
Perhaps that is their plan??
LiberalLovinLug
(14,165 posts)Based on how much foot dragging there is now for it. It would come off as being sore losers to the tenth degree. It would come off as desparation. Like ...."Oh NOW they want to impeach?", and "if they thought it was so imperitive then they would have done it during or after the Mueller report", coming off as obvious political grandstatnding. Then in the 2022 midterms Repubicans would use that to scare their base to the polls.
I think you strike when the fire is hot. Anything could happen...a war with Iran, another "convenient" terrorist attack. Preferably using some new news story to launch it. Like just when we found out that Mueller revealed how Barr misrepresented his report. That was a great catylist to start. That was the perfect time. Now it is not as good a time. Nancy and Chuck blew that, they weakened our position by not acting then. Now it is almost a common held belief that Mueller found Trump innocent of everything. But IMO there is still time to salvage it before that new normal becomes the new history book "fact".
Basically if they don't, that will be used by Trump and the GOP to declare that inaction as PROOF that it was all phony fake news, and they had nothin'. And so that the Democrats wasted time and money dragging the country through their incessant baseless attacks meant to 'divide the country'.
And on the other hand it will depress Democratic voters who voted them into the House to DO SOMETHING! Only to find out Nancy is more concerned about passing another infrastructure bill in a good old bi-partisan way. And declare "victory!" that her bill wasn't watered down too too much.
kentuck
(111,056 posts)Especially if he won the majority of the votes, unlike the last time.
But, it he had another Electoral College "victory", then I think impeachment could still be on the table.
However, it would be more difficult after the election than before.
tirebiter
(2,533 posts)will Republicans pay a heavier price if they convict v no conviction?
We do not need another 2016 situation where we lose even when we win. Thats the system. Use it wisely.
mopinko
(70,023 posts)until the court starts ordering people to appear, and hand over evidence, all they have is hearsay.
it will take court orders to break through the stonewalling.
imho, this is what pelosi is waiting for.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)kentuck
(111,056 posts)I think that was one of the charges against Nixon?
mopinko
(70,023 posts)just like nixon.
Qutzupalotl
(14,289 posts)He has committed enough misconduct in plain sight to impeach. And any one of Muellers multiple instances of obstruction would be enough to impeach.
I think the Democratic House is lining up further hard evidence, such as financial records, that will prove financial crimes. But conduct does not have to be criminal to be impeachable, so there will be a lot of articles when they pull the trigger, which I hope they will.
A competent House would have impeached him in 2017 just for violating the Emoluments Clause. Thats on Ryan; Pelosi can add it to the pile of impeachable misconduct. Congress is the appropriate venue to seek a remedy here, unlike outside groups such as CREW who lack standing for a court challenge.
Other articles I hope theyre considering include violations of the Presidential Records Act. Were supposed to get readouts of all meetings with foreign leaders, so we can see the president is really working for us. Trump has met secretly with Putin several times now, each time hiding the translators or witness notes.
Ive said this elsewhere, but it DOES NOT MATTER AT ALL what the Senate does. If they show themselves to be spineless, gutless cowards afraid to call out a traitorous bunch, so be it. All the more fodder for 2020 attack ads against them.
kentuck
(111,056 posts)There is enough evidence to impeach ten times over.
Bettie
(16,077 posts)can probably produce enough evidence of various and sundry charges.
kacekwl
(7,014 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)You're really just banging your head against a brick wall here. Republicans don't care, and you can't make them care.
kentuck
(111,056 posts)It is the Democrats.
It would be a big mistake to take their vote for granted.
lapucelle
(18,190 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Much of what we're basing our opinions about impeachment are things we've heard or suspect or actually know to be true, but the House doesn't have the hard evidence in its hands yet. The evidence is out there and they're working many different fronts to secure it. But at this point, there's really not enough evidence in hand to present to the American people - at least the majority who at this point haven't been convinced - a solid case for impeachment.
But we're getting there...
melman
(7,681 posts)Anyone who says otherwise shouldn't be taken seriously.
Poiuyt
(18,117 posts)No, the Senate will not remove him from office.
I do not believe that there would be enough backlash to hurt the Dems in 2020. Trump will claim vindication if the Senate does not convict him, and he will claim vindication if the House does nothing. He will claim vindication no matter what. But if the Dems show some fight, they may convince some non voters that we are not going to stand for the current corruption. We should not worry that we might upset the Republicans and that they will say nasty things about us. Let's fight for the disenchanted progressives here rather than trying to get the narrow slice of voters who are undecided. Do what is right, do what is in the best interest of the people, and do what is best for America.
BTW, for those of you who say that Pelosi doesn't yet have the votes to impeach, I will bet that if she started twisting arms, she would quickly have the majority in favor of impeaching. She just hasn't done so yet.
kentuck
(111,056 posts)But I don't think she would have to twist their arms very much.
To know what we know already, and do nothing, is unforgivable, in my opinion.
bucolic_frolic
(43,064 posts)Make them vote, up or down, or refuse to take it up. Moscow Mitch will Garland it for sure. But that is also a choice.
Public exasperation that Trump is still in office will only build for the next 14.5 months. Senate refusal or acquittal is part of that emotion.
librechik
(30,674 posts)but it goes nowhere in the Senate Nevertheless, if we impeach him they can't blame us for not stopping the disaster. McConnell is it.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,165 posts)But...you raise a good idea. It would surely throw them for a loop if, out of the blue, no pun intended, we announce impeachment against McConnell. For a variety of things, not doing enough both before the 2016 elections, and now, securing our elections from Russian and foreign interference for one. And his cozy business relations with the Russian Oligarch that is building a plant in his district needs more transparency as well.
I don't think he is regarded nearly as highly as Trump is to the deplorables base. The Senate is rated very low in approval. If you can't cut the head of the snake off, cut the body of the snake off of the head.
polichick
(37,152 posts)LiberalFighter
(50,795 posts)Make the case so strong that when the Senate votes, each Senator will be on the record, and the public will take notice.
FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)RVN VET71
(2,689 posts)If Trump is impeached and his crimes and misdemeanors laid out, slowly and painfully, for the people to see and chew on, Democrats will be less likely to stay home come election, some Trumpers might become a little less inclined to support Trump -- probably not a significant number, but some, and Independents will watch their TVs in earnest and vote in large numbers for whomever the Democrats finally put out there.
If Trump is not impeached, Democrats will still be likely to come out in surging numbers to vote against him, Republicans will still vote for their leader -- maybe with fewer staying home. And Independents, on whom the 2020 election teeters, will be less likely to be impressed with the Democrats and more likely to listen to the both-siders on their TVs and, well, stay home.
Impeachment puts it all on the front line. Impeachment will give Trump weeks and months of bad "optics" and give the Democrats more than ample opportunity to refer to the Mueller report and to Epstein and to Trump's immigrant wives and to the dipping economy brought about by Trump's incompetence and petulance.
Of course, timing is everything here. The Dems must impeach the bastard, of course, but when to start the proceedings? Clearly impeachment proceedings must begin at a time ripe for electoral politics, for the run up to the election. Lay all of his crimes and misdemeanors out on the table, let the GOP stutter and stammer over repeated questions about those crimes and misdemeanors. And then let the voters decide whether they want to try to get their country back or would prefer living in an America run by an authoritarian, criminal enterprise that views them as, in the words of Mittens, "takers" and leeches, vermin to be used to create greater and greater wealth for the wealthiest and greediest.
onecaliberal
(32,786 posts)The criminality in his campaign alone, the fact that he is not the duly elected president.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Before we take down Trump, we're going to have to take down his chief enabler in the Senate.
And seeing that he's now freaking out about being called Moscow Mitch, or Massacre Mitch, I'd say he's vulnerable.
If he gets taken down or politically neutralized, the rest of the GOP's support for Trump is likely to fall apart. At least enough to get a few of them to vote to convict.
rzemanfl
(29,554 posts)damage he would do as a lame duck pResident? It would make the current shit show look like a golden age.
Skittles
(153,122 posts)and they're not going to do anything
bloom
(11,635 posts)It doesn't make sense to me otherwise.