FFS, why can't Britain just admit that leaving the EU was a dumb idea, driven by Putin and a handful

[ProfessorPlum]

of liars, and decide not to Brexit? Why are they on this stupid, self-destructive, path because of one vote?

[Wellstone ruled]

1. Funny thing.

British History is replete with dumb decisions.

[sdfernando]

6. sure, but the same could be said about pretty much every country....including the U.S. /nt

[Wellstone ruled]

9. At least we cleaned up our own messes

as well as several Brit f---ups. Like the Middle east.

[sdfernando]

11. You mean like when we overthrew the duly elected

DEMOCRATIC government in Iran and installed the Shah?...yeah that went well.

[Javaman]

12. or Guatemala or Honduras or Nicaragua...or any Central or South American nation.

[Wellstone ruled]

16. Did forget to add this,

we also created all kinds of unstable governments that were put in place to keep our Oligarch's in power.

Oh,btw,we also caused more poverty and death to those Countries that any of their so called war lords.

Yup,we were and are in bed with every Extraction Company on the Planet. We are the Planet Military force to be used by Wall Street in order to secure every ounce of Oil and Precious Metal known . And we are seeing how that issue cleanup is a profit center for the 1% crowd.

My point was,Britain has made some dumb mistakes to save their Vanity,and we here in the Colonies are and have followed their lead.

[Javaman]

26. you may want to respond to sdfernando instead of me. nt

[malaise]

50. or Guyana (with the British)

Jamaica, etc., etc.

[Wellstone ruled]

28. Yes we really screwed up the

Mid East with that one,but,Standard Oil made out like a bandit as well as Royal Dutch Shell(Queen of England)on that one. Again,the Oligarchs of what was know as the free world really fleeced the sheep on that one and are still doing it today.

[malaise]

49. Isn't today the anniversary of that coup?

[Wellstone ruled]

55. Wow,a blast from the past.

Lot's of ill will remaining today as a result.

[irisblue]

13. Which ones in the Middle East

[BannonsLiver]

15. Is this meant to be ironic?

What have we cleaned up in the Middle East?

This is not a road any American should be going down. BELIEVE that.

[LanternWaste]

25. That's a wee silly.

When we in fact, do our best to deny our own messes.

[lame54]

42. We'll see next November

[bluedigger]

46. We can't even clean the water in Detroit and Newark.

[yardwork]

97. What?! We cleaned up our own messes??!! Since when?!

[Blue_true]

100. We partially clean up our messes.

Not close to completely. The smell of old shit permeates our American society, wealth inequality that traces back to slavery and segregation, the belief that we can flex our muscles and all of the world will acquiesce, ect

[dawg day]

19. We don't decide huge existential issues by referendum

Yeah, it makes every advance slow and painful. But we're also not going to have a bare majority of the people who bothered to vote deciding we're going to leave North America.

What happens when Scotland (which has its own oil wealth) decides it would rather stay in the EU?

That would mean that a single referendum led to the dissolution of the "United Kingdom."

It might also lead to a resumption of "The Troubles" in Northern Ireland as free movement into and out of Republic of Ireland was a major part of the peace accords.

David Cameron was exactly the weak, pompous, rich boy coward you'd expect. He should never have called the stupid referendum-- which he probably did merely for his only own political benefit-- and once it passed, he could have said, "Thanks for the input! We get it! A lot of you don't like the EU! So now Parliament is going to study this and come up with ways to address your concerns."

No, he panicked and ran like a scared rabbit, enshrining what was just likely a protest vote into a huge and chaotic change.

As a real Anglophile, I'm wishing the Queen would step in and say, "Okay, enough of this vote stuff. This is MY kingdom, and I don't want it broken up."

(I really am for democracy, but sometimes ... democracy can be manipulated and the true will of the people suppressed.)

[Mike_DuBois]

38. I'm afraid Scotland would not be permitted to remain in the EU

If Scotland declares independence, it still won't keep them in the EU. Spain will object to their entrance.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

45. Why would Spain care if Scotland becomes a separate country and stays in the EU?

And can one EU country really do that?

At this point I would kind of like to see Scotland hold its own referendum and become an independent country. And for Northern Ireland to unite with the Republic. It's actually the border between the two Irelands that's going to be a nightmare.

[cabot]

47. Because of Catalonia

If Scotland votes to leave the UK and then is able to join the EU, Spain fears Catalonia will feel emboldened to do the same thing.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

48. Okay. But could they single-handedly veto

Scotland joining the EU?

[cabot]

52. I believe so

All 27 nations have to agree on new members. Every single country could say yes to Scotland, but if Spain says no, then Scotland can't join.

[Denzil_DC]

61. That's not true.

Numerous times over the past few years, Spanish government representatives have said that providing Scotland gains independence by legitimate means, Spain will not object to its joining the EU.

They nowadays take great pains to avoid comparing the situation concerning Scotland with that of Catalonia. Their major argument about Catalonia is that an independence referendum is illegal under the Spanish constitution.

[Ghost Dog]

72. Also, Scotland is an historical nation, which entered into a voluntary

parliamentary union with England. The Crowns of Scotland and England are separate, although held in personal union by one Monarch at the moment. Scotland is not and has never been an English region, never having been conquered even by Rome.

Catalonia is a Spanish region. Before the political union of the kingdoms of Castille (incorporating León, Asturias, ...) and Aragon (which had conquered the Balearic Islands, Sardinia, Sicily and Naples, and had been subject under the kingdom of Navarra...) it was a county of the latter, and before that it was a feudal county under the Dukes of Aquitaine and Carolingian France, following al-Andalusi and earlier Visigothic rule, following Rome.

Beware of unlikely parallels and false equivalences.

[yardwork]

98. Thank you for the well-informed post.

[Mike_DuBois]

65. Yes. It only takes one veto to block entry.

Spain doesn't want Basque or Catalonia getting ideas. One if the main arguments used against the seperatist movements is they would be outside the EU if they quit Spain.

[Denzil_DC]

66. Your claims about Spain's attitude to Scottish EU membership are outdated.

The Spanish government hasn't ever held that line, and its hands-off attitude has hardened over the years, partly due to the prospect of Brexit (even before the change of Spanish government threw the PP out of power), and has never explicitly threatened a veto.

From 2017: Spain says it will not impose veto if Scotland tries to join EU

From 2018: Spain would not oppose future independent Scotland rejoining EU - minister

Spain’s intervention is a reminder Scottish independence could work nicely for the EU

From 2019:

Busted: 'But Spain would veto Scottish membership of the EU!'
THE so-called "Spanish veto" is one of the most enduring anti-independence myths.

First circulated in 2012 in the weeks after the intention to hold a referendum on the country's future was announced, it contends that there is no way an independent Scotland would be allowed to join the European Union, because Spain would exercise its veto rights to block the move.

The logic goes that this would happen because Spain does not want to offer encouragement to pro-indy activists in Catalonia and the Basque Country, among others.

Originally reported by the Independent on Sunday, it was then attributed to anonymous "Whitehall sources" and an unnamed UK Government minister, but did not include any response from Spanish leaders – who have repeatedly stated that they would do nothing of the sort.

In February 2012, Spanish foreign minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo made this categorical denial of the veto myth: "If the two parts of the United Kingdom are in agreement that it is in accord with their constitutional arrangement, written or unwritten, Spain would have nothing to say. We would simply maintain that it does not affect us."

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17819791.busted-but-spain-veto-scottish-membership-eu-/

The current Spanish government line is to avoid any comparisons between Scotland and Catalonia (and the Basque Country).

[Ghost Dog]

73. "If the two parts of the United Kingdom are in agreement

that it is in accord with their constitutional arrangement, written or unwritten, Spain would have nothing to say. We would simply maintain that it does not affect us."

Precisely Spain's position, at the moment. And without prejudice regarding the status of Gibraltar (where the local population voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU) and especially those unilaterally-declared 'territorial waters' unmentioned in Utrecht nor in any other Treaty.

[Mike_DuBois]

83. Interesting. It has been three years since I was in the neighborhood

Guess things change.

[Denzil_DC]

85. The only thing that's changed is that we're not in the heat of a Scottish independence referendum.

The Spanish "threat of veto" was never founded in fact, it was UK government/Unionist propaganda. It appears to have some longevity as a myth, and I expect it to be trotted out again if and when we have another referendum. Some right-wing Spanish politicians have come out with the line over the years, but it's never been Spanish government policy.

Apart from anything else, the Spanish government would rather other countries don't pay attention to what's going on within its borders concerning Catalonia etc. (the state overreaction has been shameful and mindboggling), so it tries to keep out of other EU countries' internal conflicts and debates.

[Dennis Donovan]

24. Lions led by donkeys

[erronis]

32. In 1,000,000 years there will be courses on the Laws of Unintentional Consequences

And most of the history of mankind on earth will be a rich trove of examples.

We think in days to months; we act in months to years; we understand in years to decades; we suffer for more decades.

The earth will do some cleansing and people like johnson/trump/stalin/hitler/ghengis/etc. will be relegated to nothing. I doubt that the next crop of idiots will be any better, however.

[Blue_true]

99. Where did you think the word "hubris" come from? nt

[lagomorph777]

2. Because one of Putin's deputies in the Brexit scam is now the PM.

[ProfessorPlum]

4. yeah, but he's on his way out

with barely a majority - he may be the shortest serving PM in British history.

So why don't the british rise up and demand they not be put through this hell?

[lagomorph777]

8. I hope you're right!

[Scarsdale]

33. The Brits are wondering the

same thing about the US. Why is tRump being allowed to upset the entire world with his stupid tariffs? Why is Moscow Mitch alone deciding not to have free and clean elections here? The US should clean off its' own doorstep before criticizing other countries. Other countries wonder WHY the US is the only democratic country without some decent form of healthcare for its people, too.

[ProfessorPlum]

34. it's not really a criticism, I'm scared to death for them

and i don't want our best ally weakened so much.

[luvtheGWN]

91. EXCUUUUUUUSE me, Professor Plum.

Your northern neighbour is your best and closest ally, and don't you forget it!

[ProfessorPlum]

93. :) Sorry, I must have forgotten what I was talking aboot

[UniteFightBack]

59. We are out resisting....are they? nt

[malaise]

88. +1,000

Great thread

[pbmus]

3. FFS, why can't Americans just admit the Con was a stupid idea, driven by Putin

Last edited Tue Aug 20, 2019, 06:44 PM - Edit history (1)

And a thousand liars....

[Ghost Dog]

74. Because such a Putin-centric worldview is overly simplistic

and far removed from reality?

[pbmus]

95. Trumpers and trumpets heartily agree...

[malaise]

5. Because, put simply, the good old imperialists from Eton

have yearnings for a nineteenth century that is not coming back.
They will learn.

[Wellstone ruled]

17. Oh so true!

[Ghost Dog]

75. Nineteenth century? They want sixteenth century!

Golden age of pirates and commissioned corsairs and slaver Caribbean colonialism.

[malaise]

80. Ha - Eric Williams agrees with you

"Capitalism and Slavery".

https://flexpub.com/preview/capitalism-and-slavery

[Ghost Dog]

81. Good source, thanks.

... The first English slave-trading expedition was that of Sir John Hawkins in 1562. Like so many Elizabethan ventures, it was a buccaneering expedition, encroaching on the papal arbitration of 1493 which made Africa a Portuguese monopoly. The slaves obtained were sold to the Spaniards in the West Indies. The English slave trade remained desultory and perfunctory in character until the establishment of British colonies in the Caribbean and the introduction of the sugar industry. When by 1660 the political and social upheavals of the Civil War period came to an end, England was ready to embark wholeheartedly on a branch of commerce whose importance to her sugar and her tobacco colonies in the New World was beginning to be fully appreciated...

The English were latecomers into the trade, to be fair. Rome was built by slaves.

[malaise]

87. I picked the 19th century because that is when Britain dominated world trade

and the Eton boys saw themselves as invincible but there is no doubt that it started in the 16th century.

[NewJeffCT]

7. The same way that

we can't admit that electing Donald Trump was a dumb idea driven by Putin, a complicit media and a plethora of liars and just get him out of office.

[ProfessorPlum]

18. I have no trouble admitting that

hell, it's the basis for my worldview

[NewJeffCT]

20. sure

but, why is Trump still in office if we're admitting that?

Same reason Brexit is still moving forward in the UK

[erronis]

35. This is a good illuminating discussion. Perhaps our forms of governance are rigged?

Parliaments, Congresses, semi-democratic rule.

Just ways for the Elected to hold onto their posts?

Lords, Earls, landed-gentry, rich folks, citizens, whites, proper surnames, nice cars and women. Having the media in your pocket (in more ways than one) doesn't hurt.

[NewJeffCT]

37. I think most democracies

were not ready for Putin's attacks against the UK, the US, France, Germany, etc. - and Putin exploited weaknesses and loopholes in the system, including free speech and the lack of ability to respond if one party (the GOP) is in bed with the enemy

[triron]

63. Just read Malcolm Nance to get lots of illumination on this.

[NewJeffCT]

64. yes

that's where I got the idea of how Putin is exploiting free speech in the West.

[Haggis for Breakfast]

96. Malcolm Nance has a NEW book coming out November 12, 2019

It's called "The Plot to Betray America: How Team Trump Embraced Our Enemies, Compromised Our Security and How We Can Fix It."

Pre-order it now.

[malaise]

86. The question is why

given that Western powers and the US did to others precisely what Putin is doing to the US and them.
Only the technology is different.

[atreides1]

10. The Brits have always been stubborn

Just look at their history...how long did it take them to finally lose all of their possessions in France...how many times were they a part of the Crusades...they happen to be the most stubborn people on the face of this planet.

And let's not forget that the Brits hate admitting they make mistakes...

[Leith]

14. I've wondered the same thing

but, then I remember how the abomination got into the White House. England (the Scottish vote was for to remain*) has their own version of deplorables.

* Dunno about Wales or Northern Ireland. Considering the border issues between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland they are freaking out over, one would think that the Northern Irish vote was to remain in the EU (if they were that forward thinking).

[Myrddin]

67. NI did vote to remain.

Unfortunately, their political representatives (DUP) are very anti-EU. It gets worse, the DUP are the ones that have given the Tories their effective majority since the (disastrous for T May) 2017 general election. Without the DUP, Brexit might already have collapsed?

Wales voted Brexit, but indications are that would be over-turned, in a new referendum, now that they understand just how truly screwed Wales will be, after leaving the EU.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

21. I agree

The whole situation seems really dumb, just like the mess we're saddled with in our own country. 2016 was apparently a "banner year" for Putin and his "global political chaos" gambit.

[abqtommy]

22. That would be nice. In your op I'd insert the word "corrupt"

between your final two words. Let's not forget that all the hard work that's done by bad actors to influence vote results is not turning out in our favor.

[asiliveandbreathe]

23. I have so many tabs open to articles on Brexit..trying to understand what the hell is going on

considering the pos has thrown girth into the mix...I even had to read about Chlorine Chicken - Brits don't want our chlorine Chicken...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/02/us-ambassador-to-uk-woody-johnson-under-fire-over-defence-of-chlorinated-chicken-post-brexit-jay-Rayner

and this -

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/aug/19/brexit-latest-news-jeremy-corbyn-speech-labour-could-be-officially-neutral-in-any-second-referendum-campaign-john-mcdonnell-suggests-live-news?page=with:block-5d5a891f8f0896be8f8fbc69#block-5d5a891f8f0896be8f8fbc69

and this..

https://www.onmedica.com/NewsArticle.aspx?id=f8818b85-ad3a-4084-9da5-e2c5d472e186

Sure..all things on the table - even Brits Natl Health System..seems to me Brits need to say "bugger off "..

[Srkdqltr]

27. AMazing how far off topic you guys can get.

[ProfessorPlum]

36. this is about Putin sowing discord and anarchy within the US, UK, and EU

is that off topic? Sorry to offend

[muriel_volestrangler]

57. What is 'on topic' in this thread? (nt)

[Srkdqltr]

60. Nothing... That was my point.

[muriel_volestrangler]

71. I'm not sure you get what DU is about

People use it to discuss political topics, like Brexit, from an American point of view.

[Thunderbeast]

29. Parliament could vote to reverse Brexit!

Referendum was not binding according to John Oliver in a piece he did last year. Parliament has the final authority. If they had the courage to do the right thing, there would be screaming, but it would probably lead to a second referendum with "STAY" winning this time.

Many Brits realize that they were lied to. A favorable trade deal with the EU was NOT a foregone conclusion.

If Brexit happens, look for Scotland and Ulster to sue for independence. Great Britain will soon be England alone.

[geardaddy]

31. You're forgetting Wales.

Wales is also a part of the UK. I hope for an independent Wales, but too many have bought into Brexit, since England has trashed the Welsh economy and loads of English pensioners have retired in Wales and vote UKIP or Tory.

[Heartstrings]

40. And this will unsettle Ireland...

North vs the South again!

[marlakay]

76. I am spending summer in Ireland

Met a bunch of British people some who never wanted Brexit and some who have changed their mind. Said they can’t vote again its in parliaments hands now.

Two older ladies hour north of London were very upset and felt lied to.

[yaesu]

30. well, there's the russian problem as many of the English power brokers are minipulated

by putin, through blackmail or money.

[Act_of_Reparation]

39. In for a penny...

...in for a pound.

[Doodley]

41. Britain now has a chief Brexiter as PM, so no they aren't going to say it was a mistake.

The mistake was the political elite taking the British people for granted and transferring wholesale the ability of the Brits to make their own decisions to a lawmaking factory on mainland Europe.

For decades, British politicians have lied about the EU, promising not to cross red lines, that were crossed, and dangling a referendum without intending to hold one.

When eventually they did hold a referendum, they didn't get the result they wanted. Okay, some xenophobia was at play, but the people felt betrayed by their politicians. It was a question of who runs Britain.

The Conservatives have been split from head to toe on the issue, and it was obvious at least to some that Theresa May was never going to get Parliament to agree on a way forward.

Boris Johnson is only going to f*** things up even more. The whole thing is a mess, but it is only right the people had a say. By the way, I am a Brit, now a US citizen. I would have voted no.

[ProfessorPlum]

53. "lawmaking factory on mainland Europe"

I mean, that's not really true, though, is it? GB gets to make a ton of decisions about how it runs itself. Google James O'Brien's "Germany Plus" to see how good the plan is.

[Denzil_DC]

62. You're right, it's not true.

The poster you replied to has peddled that line on the UK Forum, but doesn't engage when challenged on it.

For an idea of how influential the UK has been in shaping the EU over the years - only to then turn round and object to what it had a major part in creating and championing - check out this Thread Reader transcript of a Twitter thread by "Steve Analyst": https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1016761275295191040.html

[Ghost Dog]

77. Excellent source, thanks! nt

[GETPLANING]

43. The British Pound is plummeting

[barbtries]

44. why is trump president?

you got me.

it's driven by right wing xenophobia and racism imo. but the stupidity of it baffles me.

[LittleGirl]

51. Because 51% of the country

Voted to leave and they are upset it hasn’t happening yet. My husband is furious because it has caused him so much stress. He wanted to remain but had been out of the country longer than 15 years so couldn’t vote! It’s a mess.

[Ghost Dog]

78. Only 37% of the electorate voted to leave,

mostly, having been lied to, without understanding the consequences.

[sandensea]

54. Because it's what The City (their Wall Street) wants

They see Brexit as their big chance to get out from under EU anti-laundering regulations (such as they are) - and by George, they intend to get it.

[Ghost Dog]

79. Only the more speculative and dodgy elements of the City.

The financial mainstream wants to remain.

[DavidDvorkin]

56. Because "Britain" is tens of millions of people, not one person.

[fescuerescue]

58. How often does an individual change their mind on a political decision?

And admit they are wrong?

How often does 66,000,000 people do it?

[grantcart]

68. Yes and they could communicate this to National Security Advisor Bolton

The irony of this thread is immeasurable.

[ProfessorPlum]

84. The hell?

just because the US is too backward, racist, uneducated, and bent on our own self-destruction to save ourselves doesn't mean that Britain has to be as well. do we have to give Putin _every_ victory?

[grantcart]

90. The US is so painfully countrycentric that even when things are going relatively well

Comments made in the US are almost about other countries are cringe worthy in the best of times.

I will give you an example "I am against the TPP" is the kind of statement that no politician outside the US would ever consider making nut is common here. You might be against the US joining the TPP but saying you are against the TPP itself projects the idea that if the US is against it then it will cease to exist.

Living outside the US gives you the virtual daily experience of Americans giving glib advice to other countries while we commit the same or greater offenses but at least the other country refrains from the constant barrage of condescension that Americans are so found of. During the election season you can hear US ambassadors lecture various countries all the while there is a river of stories about people not being able to vote here because of intentional actions by government officials (like the 95 year old black woman who having voted in every election or 50 years being denied a ballot because she no longer has a driving license).

We are the country that separates children from their parents not Great Britain

We are the country that is proposing to actually have a net out migration of people with official refugee status.

We are the country with idiot advisers in key spots like Bolton, not GB.

We are the country that broke its word on the Iranian deal not GB and, most inexplicably we are the only country who has left the Paris Climate Accords which aimed at voluntary action.

So while I personally think that Brexit is not in U.K. long term interest I just feel that condescending lectures would be better sourced from other countries where public discourse and policy is actually performing at a higher level of wisdom and kindness but the irony is of course that citizens from other countries don't really do that kind of thing.

Giving condescending gratuitous advice to other countries really is the one metric that the US really is number 1 at.

[ProfessorPlum]

92. you're projecting a ton of stuff on to me

I'm desperate for the US to change. I also hope that the UK doesn't destroy itself.

Not sure why that is condescending.

[DFW]

69. Their government won't admit it

But their people sure as hell know it.

[Recursion]

70. The UK's national poem is about a light cavalry brigade

that charged an entrenched heavy artillery battery across an open field, because of a mistake in the orders they were given, and were all slaughtered. And this is considered an awesome thing.

Unfortunately this is just part of John Bull's character.

[Soph0571]

82. Cause we are ruled by duplicitous wankers who want power more than anything

...Indeed

[struggle4progress]

89. "Because I never lie, and I'm always right!"

[Nitram]

94. "why can't Britain just admit that leaving the EU was a dumb idea" They are like lemmings running

blindly off a cliff en masse. Even the ones that want to turn around are caught in the momentum of the crowd...

[amywalk]

101. They could say the same about some of the things Trump has done. Why

can’t they stop him from putting children in cages, building a stupid wall that won’t work or putting tariffs on the Chinese. Both of our countries have been manipulated by criminal enterprises to micro target and change voter tallies.

[MarkmBha1]

102. It's bigger than Putin.

The "World Order" is controlling most countries politics.
China takes Asia.
Russia takes Europe.
America takes N. & S. America.