Men now avoid women at work - another sign we're being punished for #MeToo

[brooklynite]

The Guardian

It looks like Mike Pence is quite the trendsetter. The US vice-president famously refuses to have dinner alone with any woman who isn’t his wife – and now working men across corporate America appear to be following his lead.

A new study, due to be published in the journal Organizational Dynamics, has found that, following the #MeToo movement, men are significantly more reluctant to interact with their female colleagues. A few highlights from the research include:
• 27% of men avoid one-on-one meetings with female co-workers. Yep, that’s right, almost a third of men are terrified to be alone in a room with a woman.
• 21% of men said they would be reluctant to hire women for a job that would require close interaction (such as business travel).
• 19% of men would be reluctant to hire an attractive woman.

The data above was collected in early 2019 from workers across a wide range of industries. Researchers had asked the same questions (albeit to different people and with more of a focus on future expectations) in early 2018, just as #MeToo was in full swing, and depressingly, things appear to have got worse. In 2018, for example, 15% of men said they would be more reluctant to hire women for jobs that require close interpersonal interactions with women, compared to 21% in 2019.

I work for women. I supervise women. I have friends who are women. I've never "worried".

[Eliot Rosewater]

1. What that means is 27% of men KNOW they are misogynists and better not

be alone around women or they will do something stupid.

Many men have no issue at all with the #MeToo movement because they know they are not asshole misogynists who dont respect women.

[mr_lebowski]

28. There's 3 women in my office, one I know well, we've worked together 9 years ...

and have to work reasonably closely together due to the nature of our jobs (me: database administrator, her: Java/PHP dev).

The other two women who I don't have to work closely with, one of which is an attractive, early 20's AA woman ... I barely talk to, I pretty much avoid ever really looking at them.

Not cause I'm misogynist, not because I don't trust myself ... cause it's just not worth it.

Totally serious.

[marble falls]

2. If one treat everyone fairly one needs not worry.

[Greybnk48]

3. When "Fatal Attraction" was released and a big hit,

I was working in surgery. It was a very popular topic of discussion during procedures among the surgeons as with the general population. Many an affair went south right after that, but within a year or two it was business as usual for the "players."

[Brainfodder]

4. Ron White said it best.

(You can't fix stupid)

[Raster]

5. The only men that have anything to worry about are those that can't keep...

... their hands, their comments and lewdness to themselves. If you are behaving yourself, you have nothing to worry about.

[asiliveandbreathe]

6. REAL men do NOT have this problem....who are these so-called men in the survey -

Speaking as a woman, I would NOT want to be hired by them, nor be left alone in a room with them, show your faces cowards, seems to me, they don't trust themselves...jerks...

[eissa]

7. My male boss was one of the best I've ever worked for

Fair-minded, congenial, a great team player with textbook leadership qualities who was responsible for hiring many women in our organization. He never shut his office door when meeting one-on-one with females. It wasn't because he was "worried" about anything, but to avoid even the possibility of any he said-she said scenarios.

And in a recent visit to a gynecological specialist, the doctor had a female assistant join him, whom he explained was with him during every examination.

The vast majority of sexual harassment/assault complaints are true, but those handful of false/frivolous ones ruin it for everyone. They're the reason some men are now going to this extreme, and taking precautions to protect themselves as well.

[RobinA]

45. There Has Been

female assistants in the room with male gyns for decades. I never took it to mean that the Dr. was a molester, I just figured he’d rather be safe than sorry.

[eissa]

54. I'm in my 40s

and my regular OB/GYN never had anyone in the room with him during visits. But the one I had to see recently — who’s quite a bit younger — did. In speaking with other women, this appears to be the new norm.

[Brainfodder]

53. Fun example to the extreme of this?

An uncle has had his own wife as his primary nurse, all along!

She is R.N. and he is PhD/M.D, they are still going after 70, well past 30 years of overall practice.

They managed raising multiple kids through it all, too!

Good people exist!

[Amishman]

8. I wouldn't say I am afraid but I am really careful with my phrasing

Far more than I was a few years ago. I don't need any extra drama in my life from a misunderstanding

[pnwmom]

9. That sounds like the same percentages of men who've always been jerks around women.

So now they don't want to be around women if they can't be jerks. No big surprise.

[ismnotwasm]

13. Yup.

[DFW]

30. That is pretty much what I was was thinking.

I have worked with women throughout my whole career. Department heads, gofers, peers from similar organizations. Some of my women European colleagues kiss me on both cheeks when we meet, but they are still tough as nails in negotiations. If you're a jerk around women, too bad. Take a course, or something, or else join a monastery.

[lunatica]

10. Well, well, well

Remember when women used to feel exactly the same way about men at work? Oh right! That was DIFFERENT!!

[virgogal]

22. No,I don't remember when women felt the same way.

[lunatica]

23. Lucky you.

[Hortensis]

11. Of course some of it's punishment. Not making excuses for

misogynists and others of bad character in the slightest, but all men unjustly took a bunch of hits when this movement was hot. Extremism is why "MeToo" blew through so fast. People agree with the principles and needs but backed off from the unbalanced zealotry attracted to it.

And, although behaving well is normally protection enough to carry most men a lifetime, many were alarmed by media coverage that highlighted the attitudes of #MeToo extremists over sensible discussion. A whole lot of hostility was expressed toward men in general that was embraced instead of met with John McCain's, "No,...." to this kind of thing.

Then there are the whackadoodles who should scare people into caution and are common enough to be in every sizable workplace. Some are the kind of hostile predators men traded stories about long before #MeToo.

Others, who see themselves as victims for various reasons, have trouble keeping perspective and/or differentiating between innocent and not-innocent behaviors, so that any encounter may be interpreted and genuinely experienced as some degree of abuse, with various degrees of distress. This is a common psychiatric issue.

I knew a particularly bad case, a niece of a neighbor I helped get a job and only afterward found out why she didn't have one. She was having trouble with the work and, between increasing paranoia over her supervisors' requests and comments and upsets over the mildly raunchy jokes of one of the men that everyone else enjoyed, she traumatized herself into having to be let go. Fortunately, she was apparently too permanent a victim to find an attorney who'd go after what she knew was sexual and workplace harassment because by then she was sending little flickering hate glares at everyone who was victimizing her, including me.

Not all are so obvious, but some showed up here on DU with very immoderate comments I hated to have our male members read. And I'm sure those who did haven't forgotten.

[Caliman73]

16. As a man who is not a misogynist. I never take criticism personally.

I always try to learn what may be driving a behavior and try to respect a perspective without calling it extreme.

Perhaps the media put the most extreme proponents of #MeToo on the air for the dual purpose of exploiting the conflict for ratings, and ultimately discrediting the movement because it challenges the male power structure.

I was accused of sexual harassment by a person who had other problems. Through the investigation it was made clear that none of the allegations were based in reality. I have no ill will toward the accuser because I know that there were emotional problems there.

The point is not to "protect yourself", the point is not to be an asshole to women.

[eissa]

20. At least you were investigated and cleared

Others, like Al Franken and Aziz Ansari, have seen their careers implode based on flimsy accusations and without any real inquiry.

I do agree that the media played a role in chasing after every accusation and treating everyone like Harvey Weinstein. There was no room for degrees of infractions, nor even the presumption of the benefit of the doubt.

[Hortensis]

24. :) That's the balance we need. You are not a fearful person

and your reasonable acceptance suggests you're naturally this way when it comes to most social issues. At least as many naturally have darker views of humanity and tend to be more fearful and suspicious.

Not our primary care physician. He practices alone and he and I were alone in the room when he gave me my annual last week. He was perfectly safe in his trust in and respect for me, but I would not have been insulted if his assistant had at least found something to do nearby with the door mostly open instead of ajar. In fact, working in risk management years ago made me permanently concerned about no protection at all. Balance.

I'm sure those were among the reasons most media provided such unbalanced coverage. The usual.

I do call behaviors extremist and people who behave that way habitually extremists because almost no one does today for various reasons. The result is that extreme behaviors are normalized instead of being called out for what they are. That mistake is a big part of how we got into our current political mess. Extremism has grown in various sectors, has taken over the Republican Party, and is threatening to destroy our democracy. We owe the 70+ years of peace and prosperity in our and other nations between the last world war and 1980 or so in large part to being able to keep extremism on both left and right checked during that period.

[Caliman73]

25. It isn't that I am not fearful. I have many fears.

What makes me comfortable with women is that I see women as people not as objects of sexual desire. Not that I do not admire physical beauty, just that I understand that you need to always approach any person with a respect for them as a total person.

I do understand that there are people who have malicious intentions, that are so hurt and damaged that they are not considering the consequences of their actions, and who misinterpret the actions of others.

Sensationalism is a cancer.

[JonLP24]

18. I didn't feel under attack under the height of #MeToo

I'm actually sad because it seems like people don't care anymore including Alyssa Milano.

[obamanut2012]

33. Cannot believe you literally just "not all men" on DU

In a thread about #metoo.

[Cerridwen]

12. not all men................................................../s /nt

[MineralMan]

14. Such a thing never crosses my mind.

I grew up being taught to treat all people alike and with respect, regardless of any characteristics they might have. It sounds like some substantial minority of men didn't get taught that, and now they're worried about being the misogynistic dickheads they are. Tough nuts. The world is changing, and women are often in charge of whatever you're doing. Better figure how to behave or you soon won't have anywhere to work.

[virgogal]

32. It's gone too far,though.

One of my sons works for a large corporation and they have annual meetings on proper behavior around female coworkers. Even an inane compliment like, “I like your new haircut.” is verboten.

[MineralMan]

55. I have been self-employed since 1974.

I work with all sorts of clients.

[barbtries]

15. any excuse

to delay equality for women.
disgusting. i don't know a single person who would take such an attitude. who are these people.

[Ilsa]

17. So these men are Pensing themselves?

Self-Pensing must be difficult.

[Behind the Aegis]

19. Not surprising.

Can't say I don't blame some of them. But, the way this article is written is just scare-mongering and filled with loaded words. It is good to be aware of how one interacts with other people, but there is also a real concern with not understanding what some people feel is inappropriate because it is dependent on the person. I was falsely accused of sexual harassment. It was FIVE fucking years later, and after I missed several job opportunities, that it was discovered, I wasn't the one who did it, but in fact, it was the very person who was accusing me that had actually been the harasser! Also, as a gay man, I do anything and everything I can to avoid contact with children or being alone with them, not because of any predilection to do something bad, but because of stereotypes which exist; frankly, I also avoid being around straight men I do not know in a one-on-one situation. So, yeah, I do understand the reluctance some men have.

[librechik]

21. Good. It's a first step I applaud. But using it as an excuse not to hire women

is an atrocity.

[LiberalFighter]

26. Considering what I see on Facebook group I'm part of..

too many men don't grow up. The group is for factory workers and is administered by a couple of women. Some of the things posted have nothing to do with the workplace. And more importantly things are posted that are totally inappropriate for a workforce that includes women. Even if it was just an all male workforce it would imo not be the place to post.

I'm a male and if I was administering the site I would be deleting quite a few of the posts.

I administer a retiree FB group and I don't allow anything not pertinent to our group. And have it spelled out in the guidelines.

[WhiskeyWulf]

27. Yes, men's bad behavior is ultimately women's responsibility. nt

[Proud Liberal Dem]

38. Which IMHO

is only about a step or two removed from making women in this country wear Burqas. We already do heavily police young adolescent girls about their manner of dress, how revealing it can be, etc.

[WhiskeyWulf]

40. Exactly. nt

[spooky3]

29. For those who share the "concerns", what if you substituted "person of color"

for “women” in these statements?

It is a form of discrimination in a workplace to avoid a demographic group because you fear being accused of discrimination against that group.

[obamanut2012]

34. Yup, lots of people so concerned about the poor guys being afraid

Of those extreme women.

Yup -- replace it with POC, differently abled, etc.

[Politicub]

31. It's times like this I'm grateful for being gay and out

I don’t even think about worrying if I have a 1:1 meeting with a woman. Each time I come across an article like this it strikes me as bizarre. I have always related to women moreso than I do with men.

I’m consulting these days and women make up the vast majority of people my field. Before, I worked in an environment where I managed a team that was mostly women.

Now, I have been in a handful of meetings with men or a man and I get the vibe he is uncomfortable with me. I chalk it up to being out and having some stereotypical gay traits. That’s more their issue and not mine. Not everyone is going to respect or like me.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

39. I'm gay (for women)

and I can control myself. It's not hard. But I was assigned male at birth, so I know what kind of messages guys got and still get about how to interact with women. Thankfully, my parents and my father both encouraged better behavior of me.

[vercetti2021]

35. I'm the type that avoids everyone at work now

Not a big talker anymore. I've been accused of sexual assault in the past and it doesn't feel good to have people gossip about you for nothing you did. After that I stopped talking to people in general.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

36. It's not hard to avoid being accused of sexual harassment, rape, etc.

JUST DON'T DO IT!!!!

[dlk]

37. What this Study Implies is Pathetic

A significant percentage of men in the workplace are rebelling against their traditional privilege of being permitted to be sexual predators? Amazing and just plain sad.

[Crafty Girl]

46. Not exactly.

The fact is that SOME women lie. We have all seen men's careers and reputations destroyed by false allegations. I understand why men are very wary of any he said/she said situation.

[dlk]

49. Men Lie, Too. That's Missing the Point and the Results of this Study

[JonLP24]

50. Most people get away with it

But when it comes to sexual assault, ditching emotion and sticking to facts isn’t as easy as it sounds, for the simple reason that feelings have already clouded what we can know. Sympathy and suspicion—for suspects and victims, respectively—factor powerfully into every aspect of how law enforcement deals with sexual crimes, fogging up the numbers or erasing them altogether. When you look for facts, what you find is that the few we have are woefully insufficient. Sexual assault is massively underreported, and even when victims come forward, convictions are rare. According to RAINN, only 5 out of every 1,000 rapes committed—that’s 0.5 percent—ends in a felony conviction. The Washington Post puts the figure at 7 out of 1,000, but pretty much everyone agrees it’s under 1 percent. We usually try to make sense of this painfully low number by noting that many rapes aren’t reported, which is true, but the crime is also notoriously under-investigated.

And when it is investigated, it’s pretty tough to prove—not because of the crime’s high proof threshold, but because of how little evidence about it we bother to collect. There is, for example, a national backlog of hundreds of thousands of untested rape kits. And behind that big number are stories that don’t get told: Rather than heal or wash or even change after being attacked, these women went straight to the hospital, where they had to undress, subject themselves to intrusive physical exams, and get interrogated. And then nothing happened. No one did anything with the evidence they offered at great personal cost. (Actually, that’s not true: According to a CNN investigation, 25 law enforcement agencies in 14 states were found to be destroying rape kits in cases that could still be prosecuted. “This was a routine process, they said, done to make space in evidence rooms.”)

But it’s not just rape kits; this lack of investigative vigor seems to permeate every aspect of the system. The Minneapolis Star Tribune’s review of more than a thousand cases in Minnesota found that:

Even the rape statistics we actually have are likely much too low, because—given a major incentive to lower caseloads and no reporting standard—law enforcement has a history of improperly clearing sexual assaults. For decades, police departments abused the “unfounded” classification reserved for false or baseless rape claims (a practice that helped to undergird the myth of prevalent false-rape claims). A scandal in late-1990s Philadelphia provoked real reform there, but a recent investigation by ProPublica, Newsy, and Reveal found that many police departments still have unusually high rates of cases they designate “unfounded.” As an oft-cited 2010 meta-analysis put it, “[M]isclassification of cases by law enforcement agencies is routine. Cases in which the victim is unable or unwilling to cooperate, in which evidence is lacking, in which the victim makes inconsistent statements, or in which the victim was heavily intoxicated frequently get classified as ‘unfounded’ or ‘no-crimed.’ ” Law enforcement also has a history of destroying the evidence with investigations designated “incomplete” not because they had no merit but because officers failed to follow through. CNN’s review of one police department in Springfield, Missouri, found that in dozens of cases “detectives did not attempt to contact witnesses and known suspects, didn’t have rape kits tested or stopped working cases within days or weeks of being assigned to investigate.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/05/sexual-assault-rape-sympathy-no-prison.amp

There are more people getting away with sexual abuse than there are false allegations. I worry more about those victims than men too afraid to hire women. Also men can be victims and they are even less likely to report.

[treestar]

63. I have never seen that

It shows an extreme distrust of women.

[Crafty Girl]

64. Al Franken. n/t

[RobinA]

41. Seems Like

a fairly predictable reaction to me.

[democratisphere]

42. What women?

[Sneederbunk]

51. +1

[obamanut2012]

57. Yeah, that isn't it, and your "social justice bullying" is a dog whistle

Sorry, epic and obvious fail.

[smirkymonkey]

58. Oh, FFS!

Seriously, enjoy your stay, however brief.

[LAS14]

44. Hubby was a minister all his working life and as long as 30 years ago...

... the advice from the denomination's governing body was that male ministers should not allow the door to be closed when counseling women. It's a tricky world.

[Phentex]

47. The movement has changed many people for the better...

I feel it even on DU. Some people are thinking before saying or doing things they might have done before.

[elias7]

48. Being punished? No way!

You’re just getting avoided by all those men you don’t want to be bothered by anyway. Men who are always talking up women (often pretending not too), men who cannot help but be flirtatious because they see women as potential sexual partners.

Men who see women as people have not changed anything, are not avoiding women, and are probably a lot more trustworthy. You are winning!

[ProfessorPlum]

66. that's the way I see it too

men who have legitimate business to conduct with a female colleague will still do so

[CousinIT]

52. Too many men don't trust and/or cannot control themselves. WOMEN get punished for it.

It has always been this way.

[tenderfoot]

56. Sounds like BULLSHIT

eom

[JDC]

59. I work with tons of women. I don't avoid them at all.

[maxrandb]

60. When I was in the Navy

A senior officer once told me that I should never be behind closed doors with a female Sailor. I told him that was bullshit.

As a department head, I often had to counsel Sailors privately... the whole praise in public-criticize in private thing.

Anyway, I was able to tell him that because I was a Mustang Officer...an LDO that advanced to Senior Chief as an enlisted, and earned a commission as a Navy Officer...we didn't take much shit, even from senior officers.

I always believed and tried to demonstrate that you didn't treat women differently... you treated all your folks simply as Sailors.

I also firmly believed that my reputation and my record would insulate me from any false claims of harrassment or discrimination.

Know what I found out? If you treat people with respect and dignity... you have nothing to worry about.

[DVRacer]

67. I witnessed something different

It was the mid 90’s post Tailhook and fighter squadrons were just beginning to be integrated. A female E2 from VF101 did not want to do her time with the line shack. She threatened the division Chief with a claim if he ordered her to participate. Lucky for him I was just out of her sight but able to hear all of it. She was subsequently dismissed for the good of the service but had I not been where I was it would have gone a different way. She tried to claim I was making it up and just trying to protect Chief unbeknownst to her I was working on the link between the flight data recorder and TARPS. When the conversation was played the look on her face was priceless. Humans can be terrible creatures regardless of gender. Chief had a stellar record too but at the time it didn’t matter.

[smirkymonkey]

61. Funny, we don't seem to have this problem at my workplace because the company

will not tolerate it and everyone knows what it expected of them and how to behave if they want to keep their jobs. I am sure there are people who still push boundaries, but sooner or later those people will be weeded out, refused promotions or just outright fired.

The culture of my company actively addresses this, along with discrimination based upon race, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion, etc. If you were to refuse a meeting with anybody based upon sex or any of the above stated reasons, you would be out on your ass.

[ProfessorPlum]

65. It's not that hard not to be creepy and inappropriate

really, it's not