We cannot give them an inch

[Soph0571]

We are in the grip of a populist, authoritarian wave, and we have been witness to the most significant votes in recent times being won using utter lies and outright racism. Of one thing I am sure, however, I am not interested in compromising with these racists, dissemblers, fabricators, conspiracy theorists, nationalists and xenophobes, who demonstrated exactly who and what they are at the ballot box and at the dispatch box. As George Orwell reminds us “A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices” and I do not feel the need to ‘understand’ why they voted the way they did, I don't care, it is enough that they did.

I know this… We cannot give them an inch…

…We give them an inch they will take a mile, and a mile further down this fascist dystopian present may well be a mile too far, as we seek to try and find our way back to a liberal progressive framework. Give them an inch and one day it may be said about us that we were the future once…*gulp*.

Just sayin'

[KPN]

1. We've given them far too many inches already.

Any more and we are accomplices.

[ehrnst]

2. Who are you talking about when you say "we?" (nt)

[Soph0571]

6. Us. n/t

[ehrnst]

8. Speak for yourself. I'm not certainly "giving them an inch." (nt)

[Soph0571]

9. Neither am I - that is the whole point of the article... n/t

[ehrnst]

11. Then who is it that you are think we can't "give an inch to?"

Who is this rant about?

And what is it that you are ranting about that people "giving them?"

Are you talking about giving Trump voters "an inch?" In what way?

[Soph0571]

12. The right wing that is currently trying to steal our democracies

I really think we are talking at cross purposes!!!!

[ehrnst]

13. OK. What do you mean by "giving them an inch?"

Not protesting?

Not rebutting them on Social Media?

Not writing our reps?

Not voting?

I'm just trying to understand what the pronouns are referring to.

[Soph0571]

14. Do not give them an inch

It means we cannot back down. We cannot change our position even a little bit. If we even move one inch toward their position we are doomed.

It means we do everything in our power to stop them without conceding anything to them. Does that make sense now?

[ehrnst]

15. I'm not backing down - who is it that you think will back down?

If you demand action, you need to be clear on what action you are demanding and of whom. Otherwise it's just an expression that you are angry about the way things are (which is most of us), and you think it's because someone isn't doing something that they could be doing, or you think will fail to do something that they should.

When you say, "move one inch toward their position" what does that mean in practical terms? You said "we" meant "you and I"
Not voting? Not calling out Trump supporters on Social media?

What is it that we are in danger of "conceding" to them? Not turning out for protests?

What do you mean "change our position?" Start to think that Trump is a good thing for America?

That's still vague. What is it that you want to see that is the opposite of "giving them an inch?"

What do you think OUR power to do to:

The right wing that is currently trying to steal our democracies

I think that you know there are limits on the power of Congress, which is the only branch we hold right now. I also think that you know if congress simply tries to shut down the government, which would mean that they are not doing their constitutional duty, and that would harm the most vulnerable people in our nation, and not those in power.

[ehrnst]

22. Any answers to my questions?

They aren't difficult.

If you can't explain what it is what you want someone to do, then how on earth do you expect anyone to do it?

[Soph0571]

24. Was busy but here you go

If you demand action, you need to be clear on what action you are demanding and of whom. Otherwise it's just an expression that you are angry about the way things are (which is most of us), and you think it's because someone isn't doing something that they could be doing, or you think will fail to do something that they should.

I think that there are those who will move towards those who would disrupt our democracies as a measure of conciliation. Some politicians have failed to grasp the seriousness of this assault, or are unsure in how to deal with it. We - as in the collective we - cannot allow this to happen. This is what they hope for

When you say, "move one inch toward their position" what does that mean in practical terms? You said "we" meant "you and I"
Not voting? Not calling out Trump supporters on Social media?

I mean the opposite of that. We should do all of those things. When I say move one inch I mean we should never cede any point to them

What is it that we are in danger of "conceding" to them? Not turning out for protests?

No not that. If we agree to ignore any assault on our democracies we give them power to continue their assault.

What do you mean "change our position?" Start to think that Trump is a good thing for America?

No. If we start normalising ANY of the insanity we are at risk of changing our position is a unconscious way. Again, they will take validation from this.

That's still vague. What is it that you want to see that is the opposite of "giving them an inch?"

NOT giving them an inch. That is the premise of the entire article

[ehrnst]

25. You still haven't told me what specifically you want them to do.

I mean we should never cede any point to them

Cede means give up power or control. How does one "give up" a point? Give me an example of a point that you think we ceded, or is in danger of being ceded by us, and that will help.

If we agree to ignore any assault on our democracies we give them power to continue their assault.

Who is the WE that is in danger of "ignoring" assaults on our democracies" - other than Trump supporters? What specific assaults are being "ignored?" An example will be very helpful.

If we start normalising ANY of the insanity we are at risk of changing our position is a unconscious way. Again, they will take validation from this.

Again... what do you mean by "normalising" the "insanity?" Can you give examples?

That's still vague. What is it that you want to see that is the opposite of "giving them an inch?"


NOT giving them an inch. That is the premise of the entire article -

That's circular logic, what I'm asking is what is it, specifically that you want to see, that would assure you that "we" are not "giving them an inch."

Just saying "not giving them an inch" isn't defining what it is that "giving them an inch" means to you.

One question - are you a US citizen?

[BSdetect]

3. Take no prisoners

[ehrnst]

23. What does that mean in concrete terms?

It sounds very powerful to say "take no prisoners" but I'd like to hear what that means in this instance.

Or, if it's easier, what would "taking prisoners" look like?

What is it that you think Congress can do, that would meet your criteria of "take no prisoners?"

[BSdetect]

26. just don't be weak in punishing them

[ehrnst]

27. Still very vague - what actual punishments do you think are available to congress?

What punishments are you hoping for?

You have to know what you want, and what's actually possible before you can demand it from someone.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

4. What you say is true around the globe.

Right-wing authoritarians all over the world backed by gezillionaires are trying to take control of every aspect of our lives, based on their belief that their wealth entitles them to all the power.

Trump in America, Putin in Russia, Bolsonaro in Brazil, Johnson in the UK, Netanyahu in Israel, et al are fundamentally driven by that concept and they all benefit personally from the spoils. The wealthy know they can lead these guys around like puppy dogs. By "lying and buying" these politicians into office, they then control the public purse, public policy and public dialog.

We have a very difficult slog to fight against their tide of money into right-wing causes and that money ultimately was made off all of us through profits from our everyday purchases of goods and services.

KY.........

[Jim__]

5. It's not our giving that worries me, it's their taking.

In the 2020 election in the US, Trump toadies head all the federal agencies that can put a stop to cheating, which means there is no federal check on election fraud.

[ehrnst]

21. Yep. Moscow Mitch holds that key.

And none of the screaming that Pelosi needs to DO SOMETHING TO STOP THEM will change the fact that Moscow Mitch and the GOP are refusing to implement any legislation that congress is giving to them, and there is no other way to get legislation passed.

But of course, Pelosi is being accused of "letting him get away with it." which is gravy for the GOP.

That's so much easier for them if we just hand them the 2020 election by eating our own, than widespread voter fraud.

[Hortensis]

7. Agree. But the focus needs to be to UNITE with others

appalled by the direction the hard right is going. We're already a consistent majority, we only need to be a somewhat larger one to sweep the nation instead of losing.

[kentuck]

10. A very good Orwell quote in your post:

[ehrnst]

19. And there is absolutely nothing that could come out in a hearing that will change their minds.

I really think that there are people who are convinced that if "America sees impeachment hearings, even Trump supporters will pressure McConnell to remove this criminal."

And when it doesn't comes to pass, the same people will turn on Congressional Democrats who they think "let him get away with it," and the GOP takes the house and the WH in 2020.

[Johnny2X2X]

16. I feel like Dems are still catching up

The Democratic Party is still playing the Democracy game while Republicans have moved on from Democracy and are no longer bound by its rules and norms.

Not saying we should abandon Democracy at all, but we just need to start pointing all of this out and start doing a better job of anticipating what they'll do next. I'm sick and tired of our party's leaders being caught off guard over and over.

[kentuck]

17. No longer in Kansas...

for sure.

It's a different game.

[ehrnst]

20. Why do you think that "party leaders are being caught off guard?"

In what way were they "behind?"

Can you give some examples?

[ehrnst]

18. I think right now Democracy is being held hostage by terrorists.

Some, like Israel, might take the position that you never negotiate with terrorists, you don't make deals, you just demand that they come out with their hands up, or you blow up the building and burn it all down. Don't even give them a minute of time, or an inch in their demands.

But if your goal is to get the hostages out alive, you understand the need for strategy. You let the expert hostage negotiaters do their job, in peace, out of the media, no matter how impatient people are for someone to DO something.

The familes and kids killed in the Branch Davidian standoff were casualties of impatience and the pressure of the public and the authorities for an end to it. Hostage negotiators were not listened to when they said that going before Koresh was ready would be disastrous. The authorities thought that they were looking weak in the press, because people were outraged at the reports about child abuse in the Branch Davidians, and wanted retribution on Koresh.

I don't want the same thing to happen to our democracy, because people think that there is somehow a way to prevent the GOP from doing things that only the courts can stop - and sometimes not even they can do it. I think that Congress is in the role of hostage negotiator, and pressuring them for RESULTS RIGHT NOW instead of letting them handle this in the way that gets the most out alive (including giving us the best chance at the Senate in 2020), is giving the GOP the gift of distracting Congress from doing what they need to do.

I know, it's overwhelming to confront overwhelming powerlessness in a situation, especially if one has grown up with the privilege of being white, and one's demands that something be changed RIGHT NOW are usually acted on. White people are faced with the first time a system that that isn't responding to their demands, and want need someone to blame for not FIXING THIS RIGHT NOW. Someone MUST be able to do SOMETHING about this!!!!!

But right now, the RW has power, and there is actually little we can do about it before 2020. We have seen firsthand the weaknesses and loopholes in the constitution and laws that allow them to hang on to it. No "manager" can fix this situation right now, no matter how much you rage at them, no matter how much you threaten to get them fired.

[saidsimplesimon]

28. " there is actually little we can do about it before 2020"

Please note ehrnst, you speak for yourself and those who feed on the premise of "surrender to win". I do not agree.

Lots of things we in the trenches are doing every day to make a difference, more we can do. imo

[ehrnst]

29. False dillemma and a straw man

To acknowledge what is actually possible on the part of our elected Democratic leaders is not "surrender to win." To expect them to do the impossible is surrendering to low information, and a gift to the GOP.

To focus on what is possible without spinning one's wheels and gnashing one's teeth about what can't happen prior to 2020 is the only way that those in "the trenches," are going to be of use to anyone at all other than the GOP.

I never promoted or implied any such "surrender to win," strategy, contrary to the snide remark that I "feed" on that premise.

An apology for that mistake is the appropriate response.

Lots of things we in the trenches are doing every day to make a difference, more we can do. imo

That's not what my comment about "little we can actually do about it before 2020" is referring to. That was taken out of context.

I was referring to the RW having a greater amount of power in our government - the Senate and the WH, along with SCOTUS now.

Having been corrected on that, are you going to continue to posit that there is something other than voting in the 2020 elections that someone "in the trenches" can do to change that? Or are you going to acknowledge that you misunderstood what I said.

Understanding what is in one's control and what is not is vital to effective action. Understanding what is and is not in control of the Democrats in the House is vital to expectations that are based in reality. Expectations based in reality prevent the pointless and self defeating - especially when it comes to the 2020 elections - feeding on our own.

[saidsimplesimon]

30. My bad, I understand your concerns.

We make, create, our own reality. imo

"Barack Obama has accomplished things that most people can only dream of. He was the first African American to assume the presidency and served for two terms."

“Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we’ve been waiting for. We are the change that we seek.” – Barack Obama

[ehrnst]

31. There is a limit on how much reality one 'creates'

Barack Obama has accomplished things that most people can only dream of. He was the first African American to assume the presidency and served for two terms."

Obama is male, highly charismatic, attractive, intellectual, intelligent, has deep emotional intelligence, a dynamic inspirational speaker, workes incredibly hard, and had many advantages growing up, including going to an excellent private school with classmates whose parents were judges and lawyers, then went to very prestigious universities, where he learned from and connected with powerful, influential people who recognized his gifts. Certainly all those things are indicators of potential high achievement for someone in any race, and if anyone was going to be the first African American POTUS, he was certainly among the top ten. The circumstances surrounding childhood and early adult live were extraordinary by any standard. He didn't get to be POTUS by the power of positive thinking alone, and no one should expect to accomplish anything by simply dreaming that it's possible. Nor should they expect anything to become real simply because they are "intending it." Other people's actions are not within our control.

“Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we’ve been waiting for. We are the change that we seek.” – Barack Obama

Obama was not talking about personal reality that one 'creates,' after all, no one person's positive thinking is going to 'manifest' the GOP suddenly deciding to what is right. He was inspiring people to not give up, he wasn't telling them to trash other people who are making change in ways that we can't, for not producing the results that we imagined they should.

Change comes when we work for it. Change comes when we have a clear idea of what tools we have at hand, and don't waste time complaining about what isn't within our reach just yet. Or attacking others when reality isn't measuring up to our dreams.

[saidsimplesimon]

33. Yes, "actions speak louder than words"

Change comes when we work for it. Change comes when we have a clear idea of what tools we have at hand, and don't waste time complaining about what isn't within our reach just yet. Or attacking others when reality isn't measuring up to our dreams.

Attacking others is a waste of time and energy. You made my point. thank you

[Autumn]

32. We aren't giving them an inch, they are taking miles. nt

[Initech]

34. 40 years of a right wing war on liberalism brought this on.

And add to a constant 24 hour a day stream of AM hate radio and Fox News that feeds fear and ignorance and it's going to take a lot to get us out of this mess.