General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe way I see it, GOP is now trying to figure out how to save their party.
They went all-in with the grifter and probably thought they could manage him. They succeeded with the Mueller fiasco.
But this is different. Much different.
There is no way they can defend him. It seems some are realizing the enormity of this current offense but can't publicly speak out against him. His base would attack them.
Rock and a hard place. What do they do?
beachbumbob
(9,263 posts)investigations and impeachment inquiry. If you are going to take down a king, you have no 2nd chance. The best play is almost year long inquiry well into primary season and vote on articles of impeachment to pass to the Senate towards end of summer, force GOP to ride nov 2020 with him. My money is on the 60% of Americans who want him gone and not reelected.
C_U_L8R
(44,990 posts)The GOP has extracted all the value they can and next they need to ditch the liability.
regnaD kciN
(26,044 posts)...but, somewhere along the way, they realized that they were in far more danger from outraged Trumpers than they were from non-Republicans, and thus couldnt afford to dump him. Now, theyre stuck with defending him, and hoping Russia can do an even-better job of hacking the election next time around.
leftieNanner
(15,067 posts)and you pick up some fleas!
I agree with you that they thought they could manage him. He was definitely their useful idiot. He had no interest in governing or the actual job of being President, so they figured they would shove in as many judges as they could and get their tax cuts. Then they were happy to let him demolish the federal government and sow discord in the populace.
Too bad for them, he got a little big for the britches they wanted him to wear (KFC will do that to a man), and he started doing his own stuff.
So, now what? They are truly stuck between a rock and a hard place. Speak out and piss off their base, or stay silent and watch the whole Republican party swirl down the drain.
Sucks to be them!
lpbk2713
(42,740 posts)Obama could have made this a great country if they weren't such obstructionists.
lindysalsagal
(20,592 posts)and attempt to puppet Pensilhead.
regnaD kciN
(26,044 posts)...and Im not sure there are any seats that are safe from both Democrats and, more importantly, a primary challenge from True Believers outraged at their betrayal of Gods Anointed Leader.
babylonsister
(171,035 posts)womp fucking womp
They knew.
maxsolomon
(33,252 posts)they'll use their standard techniques until they stop working.
gish gallop
belittle the charge
attack the messenger
work the refs
accuse liberals of "feminine" emotions
launch a counter narrative
repetition
repetition
repetition
TlalocW
(15,374 posts)Democrats fall in love, but republicans fall in line. But, true to their nature, they don't like the old guy to hang around after his time is up, and I think it's a combination of at least two things
1. Republican presidents feel like they don't owe anyone anything and so retire to seclusion so as not to be bothered by the little people. W. went off to paint; Obama has stayed somewhat in the public eye, not seeking it out intentionally but because he feels he has more good to do in the world. Clinton was the same. And Carter? Geeze, that man deserves a break if anyone does.
2. Republicans often leave under a cloud of scandal and/or screwing up the economy. The congress critters want them to leave and hide out while they distance themselves from him so they can make up bullshit about how the past republican president was a good guy, but he compromised too much on conservative principles and gave in too much... that's why taxes are high/unemployment is up/etc.
Number 2 is happening sooner than they would like, which might make them move up their throwing-the-previous-guy-under-the-bus timetable.
TlalocW
Wounded Bear
(58,604 posts)cheezmaka
(737 posts)Trump isn't for Republicans or Democrats. He's only out for his Narcissistic SELF...
JCMach1
(27,553 posts)Pelosi is going to game it out. Investigate and trial next Summer.
struggle4progress
(118,236 posts)Scarsdale
(9,426 posts)were paid by the RNC, all $137,000 of them!!
LeftInTX
(25,141 posts)They're basically a criminal organization and they survive the way mobsters do.
(OK...I'm exaggerating, but I don't think they're worried. They don't act like they're worried)
Dave Starsky
(5,914 posts)I, quite frankly, can't understand why they've held on to the big idiot as long as they have.
Although they might initially lose Trump's cult following, all Pence has to do is bang the guns/abortion/Jaysus/racism drums, and they will all fall quickly back in line.
Scarsdale
(9,426 posts)right up to his pencil neck. He also contacted the president of Ukraine, he visited him too. Mother likely has her hands full right now, calming little Mikey down. Those two have patiently waited to step into the WH, and riches beyond their wildest dreams. Oh, well. Too bad, so sad.
regnaD kciN
(26,044 posts)...will get their asses primaried by outraged MAGAts in a heartbeat. And the very gerrymandering that produced safe Republican districts, ironically, makes them almost exclusively vulnerable to a challenge from the right.
If they didnt know that, its likely they would have given Donnie the boot before the midterms.
mnhtnbb
(31,374 posts)enough Senate Republicans will vote to convict Trump--to become the first president in US history to be impeached, convicted, and removed from office. Pence will be implicated and go with him.
Romney will step up and go all in on the Republicans are putting country before party by allowing Speaker Pelosi to assume the office of President, and he will offer himself as a candidate determined to end corruption, division, and return ethical standards to government.
You read it here first.
Pluvious
(4,305 posts)JCMach1
(27,553 posts)It's gonna get messy...
lindysalsagal
(20,592 posts)Trump's magats want mud, blood and slime.
yonder
(9,657 posts)Not as likely as Mittens though.
DemocraticSocialist8
(396 posts)If they hold Trump accountable, they allow themselves to save face...but the base will explode.
If they continue to protect him, they implicate themselves and expose a bigger problem with their entire party.
Either way, it looks like a slaughter in 2020 is shaping up. The report about 30 Republicans privately supporting impeachment is HUGE if true. It can't be proven if they won't say so publicly though.
lindysalsagal
(20,592 posts)librechik
(30,674 posts)Saving us the trouble of kicking them out. Then we'll see if even loonier toons get eleted in red areas, or local dems can step up. We need them.
olegramps
(8,200 posts)Trump is only following in their footsteps:
In the aftermath of Richard Nixons resignation, Watergate continued to claim victims.
The final toll included:
§ one presidential resignation
§ one vice-presidential resignation although Agnews crimes were unrelated to Watergate
§ 40 government officials indicted or jailed
§ H.R. Haldeman and John Erlichman (White House staff), resigned 30 April 1973, subsequently jailed
§ John Dean (White House legal counsel), sacked 30 April 1973, subsequently jailed
§ John Mitchell, Attorney-General and Chairman of the Committee to Re-elect the President (CREEP), jailed
§ Howard Hunt and G. Gordon Liddy (ex-White House staff), planned the Watergate break-in, both jailed
§ Charles Colson, special counsel to the President, jailed
§ James McCord (Security Director of CREEP), jailed
During Ronald Reagan's presidency, there were many scandals which result in a fair number of administrative staff being criminally convicted. Of course, the most famous scandal during Ronald Reagan's presidency was Iran-Contra affair. In this, weapons where sold to Iran, who was waging war with Iraq, to free some American hostages, and some of profits from this sale were then given to Nicaraguan Contras which not only a violation of US laws but also international laws.
In the Iran-Contra affair, many administrative staff were convicted for crimes ranging from lying to trying to defraud the nation. Some people convicted were National Security Advisor Robert C. McFarlane, Chief of the Central Intelligence Agency's Central American Task Force Alan D. Fiers, Chief of Central Intelligence Agency's Division of Covert Operations Calir George, Richard R. Miller, National Security Advisor John Poindexter and Oliver North.
The other controversy involved Samuel Pierce, the secretary of the Department of Housing and Urban Development, and his associates. Wealthy contributors who contributed to the Reagan administration campaign were given funding for low income housing development without conducting any background checks, which are mandatory. In addition, lobbyists like former Secretary of the Interior James G. Watt, were given massive lobbying fees for helping the contributors get the government funding. In this, 16 people were convicted including many staff from the Reagan administration. Some of people convicted were James Watt, Reagan's Secretary of Interior; Philip Winn, Assistant HUD Secretary; Thomas Demery, Assistant HUD Secretary; Deborah Gore Dean, Executive Assistant to Samuel Pierce; Catalina Villaponda, Former US Treasurer, HUD; and Joseph A. Strauss for accepting kickbacks.
The other scandal that rocked the Reagan administration involved the Environmental Protection Agency where funds from the Superfund to clean toxic waste from different sites were given to local politicians' election campaign. These politicians were those who sided and supported with Reagan administration.
In addition, there was the lobbying scandal where Reagan's Chief of Staff Michael Deaver was convicted of lying about his lobbying activities not just to the Congressional Committee but also to the Grand Jury. Also, convicted was Lyn Nofziger, a White House Press Secretary, who was convicted for illegal lobbying after leaving the government.
Comparing scandals by administration
In comparing scandals by administration, first I had to decide what constituted a scandal. How many were genuine problems versus those artificially hyped by opposition parties. Benghazi? Whitewater? Travelgate?
Even when someone was forced to resign over a scandal, how much of that was politically motivated rather than a criminal issue, like Joycelyn Elders masturbation comments or Shirley Sherrods firing over what turned out to be a doctored video?
I ultimately relied on Wikipedias list of federal political scandals in the U.S., but limited it to only the executive branch scandals that actually resulted in a criminal indictment. I also decided to only go back as far as Richard Nixon, whose participation in Watergate ultimately resulted in him being the only sitting president to ever resign. This lets many other scandal-ridden administrations off the hooknotably that of Warren Harding and the Teapot Dome scandal, and of Ulysses S. Grant and the Whiskey Ring and Black Friday scandalsbut so be it.
The chart below only includes people who served in the administration, and excludes others (like members of Congress and private individuals) who may have also been swept up and indicted for the same scandal. The Convictions list includes both those who went to trial and were found guilty as well as those who plea bargained and pleaded guilty. The Prison Sentences should be considered a minimum figure, as Wikipedia's list wasnt always clear on penalties and I wasnt able to look all of the unclear ones up.
EXECUTIVE BRANCH CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES BY PRESIDENTIAL ADMINISTRATION
ADMINISTRATION PARTY YEARS INOFFICE CRIMINALINDICTMENTS CRIMINALCONVICTIONS PRISONSENTENCES
BARACK OBAMA Democratic 8 0 0 0
GEORGE W. BUSH Republican 8 16 16 9
BILL CLINTON Democratic 8 2 1 1
GEORGE H. W. BUSH Republican 4 1 1 1
RONALD REAGAN Republican 8 26 16 8
JIMMY CARTER Democratic 4 1 0 0
GERALD FORD Republican 2.4 1 1 1
RICHARD NIXON Republican 5.6 76 55 15
Overall, Richard Nixons administration had the most criminal indictments and convictions. Wikipedias list enumerates 13 specific individuals who were convicted and imprisoned over Watergate alone, but notes that a total of 69 officials were indicted for the scandal and 48 were either convicted or pleaded guilty. (Nixon himself is not included; after his resignation, President Gerald Ford gave him a blanket pardon, sparing him from any potential indictments. However, his first vice president, Spiro Agnew, is included for indictments unrelated to Watergate.)
The Reagan Administration is next with 26 indictments and 16 convictions (including guilty pleas), followed by the George W. Bush Administration with 16 indictments, all ending in convictions or guilty pleas. The Nixon Administration had at least 15 people serve at least some time in prison for their crimes, while Bush 43s administration had at least 9 and the Reagan Administration had at least 8. (Scooter Libbys sentence is included here even though Bush pardoned him in 2007 before he was sent to jail, since the pardon did not expunge the crime and the pardon itself is a political act, not a judicial determination. But others whose convictions were later overturnedlike Oliver Norths and John Poindextersare included under indictments but not convictions since it wouldnt be appropriate for us to second-guess the courts reasoning for overturning those convictions.)
All those Clinton White House scandals? Despite hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on hearings on Whitewater, Travelgate, the use of the White House Christmas card list, and other oddities, almost all resulted in absolutely nothing. Clinton himself isnt included. As with Nixon, the impeachment proceedings themselves should count as an indictment, and in the end his only citation was for contempt of court, which I didnt interpret as the same as an indictment. (I will update this if folks show me this was incorrect.) The only indictments for his administration were of his Secretary of Agriculture Mike Espy (who was acquitted of all 30 charges) and of Espys chief of staff Ronald Blackely, who was convicted of making a false statement and sentenced to 27 months in prison.
The George H. W. Bush Administration only had a single criminal indictment, but its notable for two reasons. It was the only time that a U.S. treasurer has ever gone to prison. But Catalina Vasquez Villalpandos conviction and sentence is probably less notable than who didnt go to jail: President Bush 41 himself escaped potentially ruinous scandal by granting clemency to six people indicted in the Reagan Administrations Iran-Contra scandal, thereby avoiding trials that could have exposed Bush 41s involvement.
LiberalLovinLug
(14,165 posts)...with the belief that, like they dissed Cheney and Bush after they left power, they can do that with Donald. And when Donald predictably comes back at them with Tweets etc..this time they will instead of groveling, exaggerate how upset you are by it. Start to create a new narrative about how you had no idea of the depth of his crimes, and how you will right the ship. Get public support from former Never Trumpers, like David Frum, and Ana Navarro, Steve Smith etc. to bring back moderates.
RISK: That Trump cultists will not forgive that. Now that they have tasted being so close to all their fantasies coming true, at least in their imagination. And cause too much division in the party.
2. Hold fast to Trump. Continue to break the law, blocking testimony, refusing to obey subpoenas despite Dem's impeachment powers. Use Fox News and other media to propel their propaganda how they are refusing because this is some kind of anti-democratic coup against the US government. Act even angrier than Democrats, they are very good at feigning outrage. Call on Trump's hard core followers to rise up. The key is how many in top military positions would support them.
....with the belief that, this is the only way they can retain power. Plus for some, the only way to stay out of jail. For some, its what they've always dreamed of, Mitch's "permanent Republican majority" utopia come to life. Some, will just go along to get along, like they are doing now. But like frogs in a warming caldrum, they will accept more and more extreme RW policies. Like reversing the investigations against Trump, to kangaroo prosecutions against prominent Democrats. Use Fox News and RW media to convince enough that this is all necessary to protect the country. And all downhill from there.
RISK: That they haven't thought of everything, and battened down all avenues back to a liberal democracy, and there are enough Americans that say "NO", and actually get off the couch.
Nitram
(22,768 posts)world wide wally
(21,739 posts)Johnny2X2X
(18,973 posts)They are all in with Trump. Watching them one after another feign outrage at these impeachment hearings is stunning, they are all in with Trump and they don't think they're going down.
And they're going to get really crazy and really scary soon.
I don't think people know the situation we're in, we are close to bloodshed. This group would rather there be massacres than lose power.
eleny
(46,166 posts)TheRealNorth
(9,471 posts)The Republican base is with Trump. Having talked to enough MAGATs, he could order the arrest and execution of all Democratic Congress members and half of them would cheer, and the other half would express some concern about the rule of law and that they were not tried before a kangaroo court first.
Lib 4 Life
(97 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)His racism is their racism.
His lack of empathy is their lack of empathy.
NCLefty
(3,678 posts)misdeeds.