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NNadir

(33,464 posts)
Wed Nov 6, 2019, 08:28 AM Nov 2019

My semi-rural township was pure Republican when I moved in. Yesterday the last Republican...

... town council member was defeated. (He'd been on the town council for more than 20 years, and made it a point that he was also the last farmer on the town council.)

The Republicans were so moderate - even endorsing the "solar will save us" meme to prevent a gas line coming through even though this is not a workable scheme (since solar entrenches gas use) - that my son thought of voting for one. (The Democrats here are not as strong on opposing development in this town as we would like and are allowing the creep of suburbia into places it shouldn't go.)

I told him I once thought of voting for a Republican when I was around his age (Jacob Javits) but didn't do so because saying you are a Republican says, more than ever, what your ethical and moral views are, which is to say, non-existent.

He agreed, and has not yet voted Republican in his life.

Great day! Great day!

31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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My semi-rural township was pure Republican when I moved in. Yesterday the last Republican... (Original Post) NNadir Nov 2019 OP
((NNadir)) blm Nov 2019 #1
Yes! ananda Nov 2019 #2
Jacob Javits was actually a good guy, not what I'd call a Repuke of today FakeNoose Nov 2019 #3
My dad was Washington correspondent for a newspaper in a tiny town in upstate NY DFW Nov 2019 #4
+1 FakeNoose Nov 2019 #6
I think the rot set Scarsdale Nov 2019 #24
That is great news! mcar Nov 2019 #5
I hear you KentuckyWoman Nov 2019 #7
My township is still 100% fascist and the only thing they endorse is tRump. nt yaesu Nov 2019 #8
I'm 72 yr and have never voted for a Republican vlyons Nov 2019 #9
Excellent! Mersky Nov 2019 #10
We used to have some great people who were Republicans not so much anymore Botany Nov 2019 #11
"solar entrenches gas use" - gotta disagree with you there. lagomorph777 Nov 2019 #12
You are free to believe what you wish... NNadir Nov 2019 #13
Well, let's just all curl up and die then. lagomorph777 Nov 2019 #14
A better option would be to take science and engineering... NNadir Nov 2019 #20
OK. Let's also include economics. lagomorph777 Nov 2019 #26
Sorry, but my information comes from the primary scientific literature. NNadir Nov 2019 #27
Ah, nuclear. lagomorph777 Nov 2019 #28
I've been reading and considering Mr. nnadir's... EarnestPutz Nov 2019 #29
I'm an engineer too. lagomorph777 Nov 2019 #30
Post removed Post removed Nov 2019 #31
Facts John ONeill Nov 2019 #23
Agreed. Would like to see the cites and "facts". n/t MarcA Nov 2019 #15
Here's a wealth of good data lagomorph777 Nov 2019 #18
In many posts here, many of which involve... NNadir Nov 2019 #21
I agree - Complete Bullshit jpak Nov 2019 #17
One sentence is so concise and true: saying you are a Republican says what your ethical Karadeniz Nov 2019 #16
I live in a small county in Northern California. Mr.Bill Nov 2019 #19
My dream ThoughtCriminal Nov 2019 #22
It'd be nice.. Maxheader Nov 2019 #25

FakeNoose

(32,577 posts)
3. Jacob Javits was actually a good guy, not what I'd call a Repuke of today
Wed Nov 6, 2019, 09:56 AM
Nov 2019

Once upon a time I lived in upstate New York, and I'm not ashamed to say that I voted for Nelson Rockefeller for NYS Governor. He was an awesome governor, and I might have even voted for him for President if he had lived long enough. But that was not to be.

And I think we all recognize that the old-style Republican Party has gone down in flames since those days.

DFW

(54,276 posts)
4. My dad was Washington correspondent for a newspaper in a tiny town in upstate NY
Wed Nov 6, 2019, 10:08 AM
Nov 2019

As such, he knew guys like Javits and Rockefeller really well. During Rockefeller's brief stint as VP, I even got to play music for him at a reception at the National Press Club, even still got a photo of that. It was in early 1975, just before I got recruited for my day job. Javits, Rockefeller, and even Gerry Ford wouldn't recognize today's Republican Party. The current roster of paranoid hatemongers that constitute today's Republican Party would be as foreign to those three as they are to us.

Scarsdale

(9,426 posts)
24. I think the rot set
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 07:37 AM
Nov 2019

into the gop with despicable representatives such as Gingrich, DeLay and Dole. Dole really was a s-o-b. He scanned the voter lists, then punished anyone in his area who voted democratic. I read the book about him "Senator for Sale" A true bastard of a man, seriously. DeLay said Dole was his role model, and I believe that. Gingrich is just a total waste of space. Egotistical as tRump. Now look at the gop party. Gym Jordan, Goetz, Cotton, McCarthy. Shake the entire group together, and there would not be one ethical, workable BRAIN. Disgusting group of traitors. Exactly the type of person tRump is bound to attract.

KentuckyWoman

(6,679 posts)
7. I hear you
Wed Nov 6, 2019, 10:23 AM
Nov 2019

We've had locals that were excellent candidates for helping to lead, but were members of the Republican party. I've been known to go have a one on one and tell them that I wish they'd switch parties.

Often that is asking a lot. There are family and business relationships they have to consider and switching carries it's troubles in that regard. A lot of these people don't vote down party lines when it is just them and the ballot.

vlyons

(10,252 posts)
9. I'm 72 yr and have never voted for a Republican
Wed Nov 6, 2019, 11:13 AM
Nov 2019

The first time I voted at age 21 was in 1968, and it was the last time that Texas had a poll tax.

Botany

(70,447 posts)
11. We used to have some great people who were Republicans not so much anymore
Wed Nov 6, 2019, 11:35 AM
Nov 2019

Gov. Ray Shafer of PA was as good as it gets.

Abe Lincoln, Margert Chase Smith, Lowell Weicker, Chuck Percy, Mark Hatfield, Ike, and so on.

Those days are long gone.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
12. "solar entrenches gas use" - gotta disagree with you there.
Wed Nov 6, 2019, 11:36 AM
Nov 2019

Utilities have currently chosen to use gas as reserve for night/cloudy weather etc. Gas is certainly not the longer-term solution. Longer-term possibilities include liquid-electrode batteries, flywheel, compressed air bladders underwater, hydro reservoirs, and more.

NNadir

(33,464 posts)
13. You are free to believe what you wish...
Wed Nov 6, 2019, 12:50 PM
Nov 2019

...but there is a difference between belief and fact.

The fastest growing fuel on the planet this century has been coal, followed by petroleum, followed by gas.

The belief that so called "renewable energy" would save us is part of the reason that the accumulation of dangerous fossil fuel waste has reached the highest rate ever observed.

So called "renewable energy didn't save the day, isn't saving the day and won't save the day.

Facts matter, whether they are in opposition to right wing shibboleths or our own sacred cows.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
14. Well, let's just all curl up and die then.
Wed Nov 6, 2019, 12:58 PM
Nov 2019

You need to get out more. Look at the wider world and recognize that change is happening and must happen. Facts matter and you seem to be choosing to ignore many important ones. That's your loss. I won't allow it to be mine.

NNadir

(33,464 posts)
20. A better option would be to take science and engineering...
Wed Nov 6, 2019, 06:33 PM
Nov 2019

...more seriously than wishful thinking.

It's what my journal here is all about, an exploration of the technical realities.

I'm sorry, but I'm a scientist, which means experiment overruled theory, even popular theory.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
26. OK. Let's also include economics.
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 09:49 AM
Nov 2019
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2018/01/13/renewable-energy-cost-effective-fossil-fuels-2020/#3ea32cb34ff2
http://www.renewable-energysources.com/
https://www.nrel.gov/news/press/2017/nrel-report-utility-scale-solar-pv-system-cost-fell-last-year.html
https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2018/01/solar-pv-costs-expected-cut-half-2020/
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/wind-energy-is-one-of-the-cheapest-sources-of-electricity-and-its-getting-cheaper/


And of course, keep in mind that all of the above studies assume that the largest costs of fossil fuels are externalized (i.e. not the utility operator's problem). Externalized costs include health problems from polluted air, and (duh) the existential threats posed by climate change (fires, floods, loss of coastal cities, mass migrations...)

https://www.epa.gov/statelocalenergy/estimating-health-benefits-kilowatt-hour-energy-efficiency-and-renewable-energy
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2017/09/climate-change-costs-us-economy-billions-report/

So, lobbyists can advocate all they want for propping up the dying (and killing) fossil fuel industries, based on "science" and "facts" but in reality that's all based on narrow greedy self-interests, not honest science, not the interests of the energy-buying public, and certainly not economic realities. Fossil fuels are going away because they are unaffordable, and all the advocacy, all the bots, all the trolls, and all the public corruption in the world, can't change that reality.

NNadir

(33,464 posts)
27. Sorry, but my information comes from the primary scientific literature.
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 10:28 AM
Nov 2019

I spend a huge amount of time in academic libraries studying energy and the environment, and have been doing so for 30 years.,

I believe that my journal in this space reflects how and what I read.

On November 13 of this year, the International will release the 2019 edition of the World Energy Outlook, the editions of which I have read every year in this decade.

In many posts here, I have referred to the 2018 edition and the data therein; I do not expect 2019's edition will be any different.

Here's what I routinely write say about the 2018 edition's contents:

In this century, world energy demand grew by 164.83 exajoules to 584.95 exajoules.

In this century, world gas demand grew by 43.38 exajoules to 130.08 exajoules.

In this century, the use of petroleum grew by 32.03 exajoules to 185.68 exajoules.

In this century, the use of coal grew by 60.25 exajoules to 157.01 exajoules.

In this century, the solar, wind, geothermal, and tidal energy on which people so cheerfully have bet the entire planetary atmosphere, stealing the future from all future generations, grew by 8.12 exajoules to 10.63 exajoules.

10.63 exajoules is under 2% of the world energy demand.

2018 Edition of the World Energy Outlook Table 1.1 Page 38 (I have converted MTOE in the original table to the SI unit exajoules in this text.)


You know what's wrong with so called "renewable energy?" We spent on this planet two trillion dollars on it in the last 10 years alone and it has done nothing, nothing at all, to address climate change. It didn't work. It isn't working. It won't work. The reason is physics.

Does anyone ever stop to ask why, with a population less than 1/8th of modern populations, humanity abandoned so called "renewable energy" in the 19th century?

From the data available at the Mauna Loa CO2 observatory:

We hit 415 ppm of CO2 in the planetary atmosphere this spring. In the 20th century the average rate of increase in the dangerous fossil fuel waste was as follows:

1961-1970: 0.898 ppm/year on average.
1971-1980: 1.339 ppm/year on average.
1981-1990: 1.554 ppm/year on average.
1991-2000: 1.541 ppm/year on average.

In the age of the rise of "renewable energy will save us" beginning with Germany:

2001-2010: 2.038 ppm/year on average.
2011-2018: 2.418 ppm/year on average.

The 20th century average annual increase overall: 1.31 ppm/year
The 21st century average annual increase overall: 2.12 ppm/year

The last 5 years annual average increase: 2.55 ppm/year

Are we tired of so much winning yet? Do we care a shred for the planet we are leaving behind for our children, our grandchildren and their great grandchildren?


Now. I'm an old man, approaching the end of my life, deeply ashamed of what my generation has done to all future generations. In my adult life I've been hearing nonsensical bull about how wonderful so called "renewable energy" was, and for many years I believed it because I took a lazy unquestioning approach to all this posturing and talk.

Fossil fuels must be banned, but destroying pristine wilderness with wind turbines that will be landfill in 20 years is not ethical; it is a crime against all future generations, because we did not think.

The only environmentally acceptable form of energy is nuclear energy. We, on the left, have been trained like Pavlov's dogs to react to nuclear energy with all sorts of scientifically illiterate bullshit about so called "nuclear waste," which has not killed anyone in more than half a century in this country, while we routinely accept dangerous fossil fuel waste, which combined with biomass combustion is responsible for 7 million deaths per year. This means 130 people will die from dangerous fossil fuel and biomass combustion waste in the 10 minutes it takes to write this post.

Here is the most recent full report from the Global Burden of Disease Report, a survey of all causes of death and disability from environmental and lifestyle risks: Global, regional, and national comparative risk assessment of 79 behavioural, environmental and occupational, and metabolic risks or clusters of risks, 1990–2015: a systematic analysis for the Global Burden of Disease Study 2015 (Lancet 2016; 388: 1659–724) One can easily locate in this open sourced document compiled by an international consortium of medical and scientific professionals how many people die from causes related to air pollution, particulates, ozone, etc.

We say nuclear power is "dangerous." But we don't give a shit when home blows up from a gas leak, or when gas pump guys get leukemia from benzene exposure. Our claim, our criminal claim, is that only nuclear power be absolutely risk free or other forms of energy can kill at will. Nuclear energy is not risk free. It never will be. However nuclear energy need not be risk free to be vastly superior to everything else. It only needs to be vastly superior to everything else, which it is.

And I['m really, really, really reluctant to here mindless crap about how "expensive" nuclear energy is. The highest household electricity rates in the OECD belong to both Denmark and Germany in that order. If you have to built two systems to do what one system can do, and the redundant system kills people whenever the wind isn't blowing and the sun isn't shining, whenever it operates, that's not either economically nor environmentally nor morally acceptable to me.

The fact is that we are willing to spend ten billion dollars to prevent a single death from radiation, and not willing to spend two hundred dollars to vaccinate a kid without insurance. This is criminal selective attention, driven by fear and ignorance.

The United States built more than 100 nuclear reactors in about 25 years using primitive technology developed in the late 1940's and 1950s. During that time, it produced the lowest electricity prices in the world. Now we hear that what has already happened is impossible.

Does any person who parrots this continuous nonsense ever stop to thing for a New York minute, how that has become accepted wisdom, that nuclear energy is "too expensive?"

No.

The problem is that nuclear plants are built to last 80 years, not the 20 years that wind turbines and solar cells will operate before becoming materially intense landfill. Thus they are a gift from our generation to all future generations. We don't give a shit about future generations. We treat them with contempt, insisting that they will do with so called "renewable energy" what we have consistently unable to do, and do so robbed of resources and with a destroyed atmosphere. My father's generation left mine nuclear power plants. My generation is leaving my son's generations waste dumps, the biggest one being the planetary atmosphere.

History will not forgive us, nor should it.

Excuse me if I'm unimpressed with your links. I've heard it all before, and have been hearing it for more than half a century.

Have a nice day.

EarnestPutz

(2,115 posts)
29. I've been reading and considering Mr. nnadir's...
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 09:15 PM
Nov 2019

....commentary for the past few years and, though originally a nuclear skeptic, he has made a real convert out of me. You can't argue with real numbers, real science and real engineering. Particularly real engineering solutions to real engineering problems. Please reconsider your position as I have.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
30. I'm an engineer too.
Fri Nov 8, 2019, 09:56 AM
Nov 2019

I won't design or endorse a system where the slightest flaw anywhere puts millions of lives at risk.

I see why Nadir is not comfortable with any sources which include cost analysis. Nuclear is off the charts expensive, even before you calculate externalized costs such as:

Three Mile Island
Chernobyl
Fukushima

Nuclear really put the "Fuk u" in Fukushima. We need to be done with this particular non-renewable energy source. We already have an amazing source of nuclear fusion energy; it crosses our sky every day. We are successfully exploiting it through solar and wind.

Response to lagomorph777 (Reply #28)

John ONeill

(60 posts)
23. Facts
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 05:21 AM
Nov 2019

This website shows real time carbon dioxide emissions for the electricity generation from about fifty countries and territories. The ones with the lowest emissions at the moment are the South Island of New Zealand (where I live), Uruguay, and Ontario, Canada. Uruguay and the South Island both happen to have low populations and plentiful hydro resources, supplemented with some wind power. Norway is similar. Ontario has a lower carbon footprint, a much higher population, and proportionately less hydro. It compensates by getting most of its power from nuclear reactors. France also has a large population, low emissions, and mostly nuclear power. Countries which have built a lot of solar - Italy, Japan, Greece, Germany - or wind - East and West Denmark, South Australia, Germany again - show better figures than all-fossil powered neighbours like Poland or New South Wales, but not much better. The website allows you to scan back over 24 hours, and often you'll find that renewable inputs only give temporary, minor reductions in coal and gas use. Since we can't all live in rainy, hilly, and nearly empty regions, the facts to date show that nuclear is the most effective way of cutting emissions from power generation. Battery storage, which is often cited as being the way to make wind and solar dependable power sources, is effectively zero everywhere, and will almost certainly stay that way.
https://www.electricitymap.org/?wind=false&solar=false&page=country&countryCode=US-CA&remote=true

NNadir

(33,464 posts)
21. In many posts here, many of which involve...
Wed Nov 6, 2019, 06:38 PM
Nov 2019

...exhaustive review of data, with references, I've provided this. It's in my journal here.

Of course if one is not as interested in climate change as I am, one could easily just Google one's way to CO2 concentrations.

We hit 415 ppm this May.

Karadeniz

(22,468 posts)
16. One sentence is so concise and true: saying you are a Republican says what your ethical
Wed Nov 6, 2019, 05:00 PM
Nov 2019

And moral views are. I'd love to hear them explain that!

Mr.Bill

(24,236 posts)
19. I live in a small county in Northern California.
Wed Nov 6, 2019, 05:59 PM
Nov 2019

I moved here in 1991 and I have watched it turn from red to blue. We have one last county supervisor who is a republican asshole. He is in his fourth and hopefully last term. He is a carbon copy of Jim "Jacket-Off" Jordan. He's even a wrestling coach, just like Jordan.

ThoughtCriminal

(14,046 posts)
22. My dream
Wed Nov 6, 2019, 09:21 PM
Nov 2019

is when the Republican party is down to two old guys screaming at each other about which one is more conservative.

Maxheader

(4,370 posts)
25. It'd be nice..
Thu Nov 7, 2019, 07:49 AM
Nov 2019

if everyone could live together in harmony..
if town councils weren't so power hungry that it inhibits development..

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