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I am perplexed by this statement of Dr. Hill. What did she mean? (Original Post) triron Nov 2019 OP
Trump and his boot lickers are being used and since they are just paranoid and stupid enough... Thomas Hurt Nov 2019 #1
The real question is: Is Trump and crew innocent dupes of Russian trickery.... OAITW r.2.0 Nov 2019 #3
There is no functional difference jberryhill Nov 2019 #5
THIS Mike 03 Nov 2019 #6
Putin wants to make the Presidency untrustworthy, by making trump sabotage the U.S. Presidency. LuvLoogie Nov 2019 #2
This would be confusing to someone who thinks the Russian's longterm or primary aim... jberryhill Nov 2019 #4
Helping Trump was a single step in a long term plan... Wounded Bear Nov 2019 #8
Yes. It's easy to forget that Russia not only supported Trump, they supported other people at Mike 03 Nov 2019 #10
Mainly to defeat Hillary Clinton imo. Putin hated her. triron Nov 2019 #16
He wanted HRC as damaged as possible, a GOP victory was an unforeseen windfall bigbrother05 Nov 2019 #30
Which is why... jberryhill Nov 2019 #17
Those may be true facts generally but they are not primary in why Russia is trying to blame Ukraine mr_lebowski Nov 2019 #7
I totally agree! n/t MFGsunny Nov 2019 #12
This! rusty fender Nov 2019 #26
Putin is pissed off that Hillary Clinton questioned the legitimacy of Russian elections, meadowlander Nov 2019 #9
Yep. triron Nov 2019 #19
Trump is an agent of destabilization for them. TidalWave46 Nov 2019 #11
divide et impera pecosbob Nov 2019 #13
Russia is doing this in Europe as well. Yavin4 Nov 2019 #14
...and Gilets Jaunes jberryhill Nov 2019 #15
It is fairly simple. Caliman73 Nov 2019 #18
Bottom line is Trump would do his bidding. Hillary clearly would not have. triron Nov 2019 #22
Yes. Caliman73 Nov 2019 #29
Delegitimize the Presidency as an office, not an assault on Trump himself. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2019 #20
Seems rather clear. H2O Man Nov 2019 #21
Oh come on. Don't propagate this 'both-sidism' narrative. Clearly democrats support Ukraine triron Nov 2019 #24
No shit. H2O Man Nov 2019 #28
Don't you love it when... jberryhill Nov 2019 #31
I can appreciate H2O Man Nov 2019 #32
My take is to weaken western nations in general Roland99 Nov 2019 #23
Agree but I still don't get why she phrased hed answer the way she did. triron Nov 2019 #25
Probably just to be generic and diplomatic Roland99 Nov 2019 #27
Ok I see what you mean. Thanks. triron Nov 2019 #34
The Russians know we are vigilant now, watching their every move to lunatica Nov 2019 #33

Thomas Hurt

(13,903 posts)
1. Trump and his boot lickers are being used and since they are just paranoid and stupid enough...
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 01:12 PM
Nov 2019

They buy into the propaganda conspiracy theories that Russia has been fronting in social media.

It doesn't take sane people long to see that there are many on the right in this country who will buy into this sh*t.

They have buying into conspiracy theories like this since the Post War era.

OAITW r.2.0

(24,449 posts)
3. The real question is: Is Trump and crew innocent dupes of Russian trickery....
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 01:16 PM
Nov 2019

or willful co-conspirators?

Mike 03

(16,616 posts)
6. THIS
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 01:18 PM
Nov 2019

What's so dangerous about this period is the susceptibility of the people in a position of power to this painfully-obvious subterfuge. Actually, to call it "subterfuge" is gross overstatement, because these are the lies of simpletons.

LuvLoogie

(6,991 posts)
2. Putin wants to make the Presidency untrustworthy, by making trump sabotage the U.S. Presidency.
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 01:14 PM
Nov 2019

To undermine U.S. leadership, checks and balances, so that authority by force only remains.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
4. This would be confusing to someone who thinks the Russian's longterm or primary aim...
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 01:16 PM
Nov 2019

...is to "help Trump".

Trump will eventually be gone. Russia is playing a much longer game. They are not "taking sides" in US politics. What they are doing, long term, is undermining confidence in the US political system itself.

This is why there are certain narratives which are sold to various ends of the political spectrum. The subject matter of whatever whacktarded conspiracy theory being peddled is not important. Eroding confidence in democratic institutions and the rule of law is the overall aim. I've pointed out quite a few of these things over time and the mechanisms used to suck people into them.

This type of strategy is a longstanding feature of internal Russian politics.

Wounded Bear

(58,645 posts)
8. Helping Trump was a single step in a long term plan...
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 01:20 PM
Nov 2019

to undermine US credibility around the world and within our own borders.

Mike 03

(16,616 posts)
10. Yes. It's easy to forget that Russia not only supported Trump, they supported other people at
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 01:20 PM
Nov 2019

opposite ends of the spectrum just to move Americans from a position of consensus in opposite directions. They foment distrust so we lose faith in a factual reality. It's tearing the country apart. Evidence is growing he's done this in other countries, including the UK on Brexit.

bigbrother05

(5,995 posts)
30. He wanted HRC as damaged as possible, a GOP victory was an unforeseen windfall
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 02:07 PM
Nov 2019

Putin wants to undermine the West and anything that sows chaos in the US suits his purposes. To that end, Brexit and meddling in EU elections are part of the same plan.

He wants the West confused, distrustful, and internally belligerent to enhance his opportunities to consolidate power with minimal cost. His ascendance in the ME was done with minimal effort because Trump is set on braking the alliances set against Russia.

If Hillary were in office, the GOP and Trumpanistas would be fighting everything she proposed and we still might have openings on the SCOTUS and throughout the federal courts.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
17. Which is why...
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 01:35 PM
Nov 2019

...confronting pieces of the larger picture is sometimes unwelcome by some here.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
7. Those may be true facts generally but they are not primary in why Russia is trying to blame Ukraine
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 01:19 PM
Nov 2019

Their number 1 goal is to get out from under sanctions, period. Everything else is ancillary, 'nice to haves'.

Them being blamed for election interference is not good for their chances in achieving their primary goal.

 

rusty fender

(3,428 posts)
26. This!
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 01:44 PM
Nov 2019

And Trumpass is clearly helping Putin in any way he can. Like Pelosi said: all roads lead to Putin.

meadowlander

(4,394 posts)
9. Putin is pissed off that Hillary Clinton questioned the legitimacy of Russian elections,
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 01:20 PM
Nov 2019

so he is running a campaign to undermine the credibility of the US when it speaks out against dictators across the globe (ala you can't criticize me when you're just as bad).

 

TidalWave46

(2,061 posts)
11. Trump is an agent of destabilization for them.
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 01:22 PM
Nov 2019

That's all Putin could hope for. I doubt he imagined it could be pulled off. Anything outside of destabilization of the US that the Russian get is just a bonus.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
15. ...and Gilets Jaunes
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 01:34 PM
Nov 2019

It's not that these things do not have organic grassroots supporters, but the Russians have become adept at using social media to blow on the small embers to heat them up into larger fires.

Caliman73

(11,730 posts)
18. It is fairly simple.
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 01:36 PM
Nov 2019

While Putin was likely wanting Trump to win, it wasn't because he thought he could "work better with Trump" it was because Trump was by far, more likely to create more chaos in the US.

Hillary Clinton while an excellent politician, negotiator, statesperson, etc.. openly and rightfully, did not trust or like Putin and his Russian government. She would have gone hard at him over Ukraine and corruption in Russia. She would have worked to strengthen cooperation with NATO and the EU and worked with governments to minimize Russian interference in other countries.

Putin absolutely knows that Hillary Clinton would have continued the same policy of extending a hand to Russia if they cleaned up their act, but having a big stick ready just in case.

Under Trump, the office of the Presidency has been diminished domestically and internationally.

I 100% guarantee that Putin would have continued to work with GOP operatives to discredit Hillary Clinton if she had become president. There would be leaks, and fake scandals plaguing her. But Putin knew the easier route to so chaos and destruction in the US was to have Trump in the White House. It isn't about Putin controlling Trump as it is about setting Trump lose to damage or destroy US institutions.

I would tend to disagree with the whole "pit one party against the other" situation because unless they were working with Nixon and Reagan too, that divide has been growing since Nixon's presidency and was cemented by the emergence of Fox News and the right wing media sphere.

triron

(21,995 posts)
22. Bottom line is Trump would do his bidding. Hillary clearly would not have.
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 01:39 PM
Nov 2019

Also Trump is an autocrat wannabe. Putin aims to weaken western democracy.

Caliman73

(11,730 posts)
29. Yes.
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 01:49 PM
Nov 2019

ANY other nominee, both Democratic or Republican would not have been so easy to manipulate. I don't think that ANY Republican candidate or politician is worth spit, but I have to say that none of the serious candidates: Bush, Kaisich, Cruz, Christie, etc... would have been so easy to manipulate. Trump was the ideal for Putin.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,173 posts)
20. Delegitimize the Presidency as an office, not an assault on Trump himself.
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 01:38 PM
Nov 2019

And in fact having Trump serve in that office achieves that goal.

H2O Man

(73,534 posts)
21. Seems rather clear.
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 01:39 PM
Nov 2019

Dr. Hill is saying that Putin wants to divide Democratic and republican support for Ukraine, which would allow Russia to expand their theft of land in Ukraine. And it would create even greater domestic hostility between the two parties here.

triron

(21,995 posts)
24. Oh come on. Don't propagate this 'both-sidism' narrative. Clearly democrats support Ukraine
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 01:42 PM
Nov 2019

democracy.

H2O Man

(73,534 posts)
28. No shit.
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 01:45 PM
Nov 2019

I didn't -- I said nothing that could be confused as "both-sidism." That exists only in your mind.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
31. Don't you love it when...
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 04:36 PM
Nov 2019

...someone asks a question, you post an answer, and then they bust on you for providing one?

You are correct, the Russians don't "support" one side or another in US politics, but want to produce a shambolic clusterfuck sucking in anyone they can rope into that result wittingly or unwittingly.

H2O Man

(73,534 posts)
32. I can appreciate
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 04:51 PM
Nov 2019

that some people -- good people, included the one here -- do not have an understanding of what a person like Fiona Hill's job is. I've seen another OP that documents the person's lack of understanding. I had hoped we might engage in a discussion that might help shed light on that. Indeed, that understanding is required to fully appreciate not only Hill's testimony, but that of some of last week's witnesses. Clearly, I was attempting to explain it in relatively simply terms that explain her thinking, in the context of her job responsibilities, rather than my opinion, from the comfort of my home.

I'm not going to go so far as to say I love it (grin), but I always find such nonsense amusing. Of course, I say that as someone who has had the time and resources that have allowed me to study the work of people in positions such as Fiona Hill. I realize that what fascinates me isn't everyone's cup of tea.

I'll end by saying that I agree 100% with what you said about Russia. This in no way means they weren't laughing at their good luck when Donald Jr took the infamous meeting, or when his weak, shallow father was elected. Nor does it mean that as an individual, Putin does not bitterly resent Hillary Clinton. But you know that! And having people like you to discuss serious issues overshadows the insults I tend to have thrown my way from time to time.

Roland99

(53,342 posts)
23. My take is to weaken western nations in general
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 01:42 PM
Nov 2019

Incl NATO

Putin then, essentially, works to re-form the former USSR and take control of oil/gas and other natural resources for plundering by him and his oligarch pals

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
33. The Russians know we are vigilant now, watching their every move to
Thu Nov 21, 2019, 04:59 PM
Nov 2019

Interfere and influence our elections. So they use Ukraine to ‘continue’ their plan.

Ukraine is not their friend or ally. They are ours which would keep us unaware of the manipulations. After all Ukraine hates Russia right?

Except the Russians aren’t telling Ukraine what to do. The Russians are having Trump tell them what to do.

You know, throw everyone’s attention off of themselves and throw it onto Ukraine, an ally of ours.

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