Claiming Native American Ancestry

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

I have an acquaintance who spends much of her time of FB screaming about Native American issues. That's when she's not bemoaning her mental and physical health issues.

I recently asked her what tribe she's a member of. She responded, "Cherokee". https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2015/10/cherokee-blood-why-do-so-many-americans-believe-they-have-cherokee-ancestry.html

I've been aware of the above issue for several years, and frankly, if someone I know claims Native American ancestry and says it's Cherokee, I simply discount that completely. Especially if you haven't done your DNA.

I live in New Mexico. I see Native Americans every day. I'm real familiar with brown skin and the look of someone who is Native American. This acquaintance has skin lighter than mine, and all my grandparents came from Ireland. I really want to ask her if she's had her DNA tested, but don't want to deal with her screaming back at me about that.

Okay, so it's fine that she identifies with Native Americans and supports their causes, but Jesus Christ I wish she'd let up just a bit.

[safeinOhio]

1. Ask her if you can borrow five bucks

when she gets he next casino check....

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

2. LOL!

I'm tempted to try that.

In related news, I am planning to go to a Casino, run of course by Native Americans, on Thursday. While my own European ancestors did not directly do bad things to the original inhabitants of this continent, I do feel as if I owe them something. This will be a tiny payback and restitution.

[denbot]

4. I like the Isleta casino.

There is a little cafe that’s pretty decent, and they have decent truck parking.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

7. They have, or used to have (haven't been there for a couple of years)

an amazing bartender.

I think the plan is to go to the Santa Ana casino, but I'm not entirely sure. I will try to remember to post a report.

[safeinOhio]

5. Live almost next door to the casino.

Great place for concerts. Last Saturday was the tribute musical for Queen. Great singing, thought all that dancing is not my cup of tea. Saw Heart, Joan and Jets and the Moody Blues in the last few years. When they have shows outdoors I get to hear it for free. When ever there is a car accident on the highway in front of my house, the Tribe first responders are always here first.

Dad had always claimed we had some Native blood. 23 and me says no.

[denbot]

3. I'd walk back that one..

I identify as Chiricahua Apache, and while I haven’t taken a DNA test my sister has and for what it’s worth, her results showed over 60% native blood.

By the way, we are not a recognized tribe, though Cochise and Geronimo are as famous as war chiefs get. So no casino money for us as well as a vast majority of NA’s.

[safeinOhio]

6. My brother talked me into the test, even though

he is my brother, we only share 51% of our DNA. He has a relative from Siberia, doesn't show up on mine and I have a famous 13 century Irish relative that doesn't show up on his.

[mwooldri]

8. Cherokee? Which band?

My wife's late grandfather's ancestry comes from the Eastern band of Cherokee (the Cherokee who resisted and/or avoided forced removal to Oklahoma). I don't know the details but he did not exercise his right to tribal membership. However he was proud of his roots.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

14. She didn't say.

Given her appearance (skin whiter than mine and I'm all Irish with a tiny bit of Scandinavian, according to 23 and me) and what little she's said about her background, I suspect she is one of those with a family story about Cherokee ancestry. Maybe I'm wrong.

I just went back to FB and asked her which band. Looking forward to her being specific. It's possible she won't see the question, since I originally asked her two days ago and that thread is already fairly far down, given how much she posts on FB.

What makes me so crazy is that she is, as I said above, basically screaming all the time about this.

Also, I don't get it that so many of FB find in necessary to post stuff every day about their clinical depression, or bipolar disorder, or whatever.

The one person I do know and am FB friends with has been battling cancer for about five years or so, does not carry on about it all the time. I want to shake some people and just tell them to stop focusing so hard on what's wrong. There's a reason optimists live longer.

[CanonRay]

33. I'm Sicilian descent

and have spent a lot of time in Native American lands. I've met many who are a lot lighter skinned than myself. Go visit the Chippewa in North Dakota or Menominee in Wisconsin. She may have just inherited her skin pigmentation from a non native ancestor.

[mrs_p]

9. I follow Native Twitter

And have read many posts that find basing native identity to be very offensive.

Yes, my family has proven our DNA but, because I did not grow up in the culture or suffer racism or oppression due to that, I don’t claim my Shoshone ancestry. I just say we have Shoshone ancestors (most of whom were killed in the Bear Creek massacre).

[WePurrsevere]

10. Interesting article. FWIW even if she tested DNA tests aren't...

always proof of NA ancestry or lack thereof though.

Yes, there seem to be a lot of people in America who claim to have NA ancestors (up here it's Iroquois mostly) and yes, some are simply family myths HOWEVER not having NA ethnicity show up in your DNA test doesn't mean that you don't have NA ancestors. DNA for ethnicity doesn't work the way most people seem to believe and NA ancestry and DNA is even trickier.

I hang out in a few genetic genealogy (and adoptee) groups on FB where it's not uncommon for people to come in and be confused, and sometimes even angry, when NA they expected to show up didn't. This is one of the best fairly easy to understand articles that I've found explaining this...
NATIVE AMERICAN DNA Is Just Not That Into You

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

19. If your ancestry to some group is so far back that it no longer shows up

in your DNA, you probably shouldn't be claiming that's what you are.

[whistler162]

11. So Native Americans

have a look?

"I live in New Mexico. I see Native Americans every day. I'm real familiar with brown skin and the look of someone who is Native American. "

Next, you will tell us you know the "look" of someone who is Jewish!

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

20. Some Jews look stereotypically Jewish.

Many do not. Mainly because being Jewish is being a follower of a particular religion, rather than being a member of a genetically identifiable group. You're not going to get away with that.

My ex is Jewish. Ashkanazi, all four grandparents came from Eastern Europe, Poland and Russia. But he looks so little "Jewish" that even other members of the tribe (as he always put it) rarely realized he was one of them until he dropped some hint.

Again, it's her insistence that everyone should be able to tell immediately that she's NA.

[cilla4progress]

12. You cannot determine someone's ethnicity

by the color of their skin - native /non-native, etc.

You might try researching before drawing conclusions.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

22. Except she thinks

everyone who sees her will immediately recognize she's NA.

Sometimes you can tell by looks. All four of my grandparents came from Ireland, and when I was growing up all the older relatives would take one look at me, cluck their tongues, and say, "She has the map of Ireland on her face". With an Irish brogue, of course.

My parents' brothers and sisters all married fellow Irish Americans, but since I grew up in this country, even if we're only considering people whose ancestors came from northern or eastern Europe, there's a lot of genetic diversity there. Plus of course, lots of people from the rest of the world.

The first time I went to Ireland I was completely gobsmacked. Every single person I saw looked exactly like my brothers and sisters and cousins. I finally understood what the elderly aunts were saying.

Sometimes you can tell a lot by a person's appearance.

[chowder66]

13. My mother and brother were consistently mistaken for being NA or having NA blood

but they don't. It's the Welsh side of our family.

Looks can deceive.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

15. So true.

But keep in mind I live where I see Native Americans all the time.

She seems to think everyone can take one look at her and know she's NA. Even if one parent was actually full-blooded Cherokee, she was not raised on a reservation or even with a NA community outside the reservation.

She's one of those people who isn't happy unless they are miserable, and try hard to make others feel bad also.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

17. .

But keep in mind I live where I see Native Americans all the time.

She seems to think everyone can take one look at her and know she's NA.

Huh.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

23. Bingo.

And refer to post 11 in this thread

[WhiskeyGrinder]

26. Nah, FOH with this thread.

[Mariana]

37. They certainly can.

My grandfather, and his mother, had very dark skin, and the story in the family was that her mother was NA. My first cousin, who inherited the dark skin (my siblings and I didn't) got DNA done and it shows zero NA ancestry. That jibes with my genealogy research. I've found dozens of various vital records and census records associated with our 2nd great grandmother, her siblings, and her parents. Every last little scrap of record says all of them were white.

My Grandpa:

[img][/img]

[chowder66]

44. We didn't have any stories about NA ancestry.

Your Grandpa is handsome btw. : )

[WhiskeyGrinder]

16. The Cherokee nation is one of the most well-documented and recorded tribes around. It's very

easy for anyone to research their supposed connection to the Cherokee.

Why did her "screaming about Native American issues" prompt you to ask what tribe she's a member of? It's easy enough to mute her on FB if her technique bothers you.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

18. Ever since I've known her,

which is about eight years or so now, she's been this way. In person it wasn't so bad. I'd see her at a writing conference we both attended. It's that these days on FB she's so single-minded.

I have given serious thought to just unfriending her, or at least block her posts from showing up on my news feed. I've done that on occasion.

[MineralMan]

21. It's easy to hide someone on Facebook. Or mute them.

If someone claims to be something, I accept their claim unless I have some sort of proof to the contrary. For example, I know a lot of people who claim to be Christians and tell me I should be one, too. Now, they don't behave as if they were Christians, but who am I to deny their claim? I'm content to let them say they are something, regardless of how annoying it sometimes is.

There are some of my relatives who claim there is a Cherokee ancestor in our family tree. That always seemed irrelevant to me, so I have never claimed such a thing. Even if it were true, it would have no effect on me, as far as I could tell.

It sounds like your "acquaintance" is annoying in more than one way to you. Perhaps a little less exposure to her would make life easier for you. I don't know.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

25. I almost never respond to anything she posts.

And yeah, I may need to hide or mute her.

[Ms. Toad]

24. Think again.

You cannot tell race or ethnicity by appearance.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

27. Again, it's her insistence that everyone should

know immediately upon seeing her that she's NA.

All I know is that she doesn't look like the Native Americans I see all the time here in NM. Although granted, I'm not seeing any Cherokees, other than the ones who like her claim that ancestry.

And what that example you posted is an excellent example of how the roll of the genetic dice can go. I bet that if those young ladies were to have their DNA done it would turn out that they have less in common than most siblings. On average siblings share 50% of their DNA, but it can be a lot less than that.

[Ms. Toad]

40. Do you really not understand that much of people are reacting to

is YOUR insistence that you live among Native Americans - and she doesn't look Native American to you?

From your OP:

I live in New Mexico. I see Native Americans every day. I'm real familiar with brown skin and the look of someone who is Native American.

Nothing in the OP, the post I responded to, suggested that SHE insists everyone should know she is NA.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

45. I guess living where I do, and seeing what I do,

counts for nothing.

So sorry. I will just take everyone's statements about their ethnicity or whatever at face value. I mean, how dare people question Rachel Dolezal.

[Ms. Toad]

47. Again.

The majority of the responses in this thread are about YOUR assertion that you know an native american when you see one.

You can't determine race or ethnicity by appearance - no matter where you live or see. To that extent, you're right - where you live or what you see counts for nothing in terms of YOU being able to determine she is NOT native american.

Whether she is or not - I have no idea. But I know (1) no one can tell by looking and (2) what she says doesn't really matter to anyone other than her.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

48. What you are saying is that we should always take everyone's claims

at face value. Again, I never question her. And her insistence that anyone can tell she's NA is dumb. Good for her that she's proud of her NA ancestry. But we cannot tell by looking, which is the point. And she wants others to automatically know what she is. And THAT'S the problem. She gets extremely pissy if someone thinks she's (I'll risk offending everyone here) a white woman. If she were polite and gracious about it, and said things like, "I know I don't look like the stereotype, but I really am Native American" that would be different. Instead, she's the one who thinks people should look at her and know. Even though, as has been pointed out over and over, you can't necessarily tell by looking.

[Ms. Toad]

49. No.

I'm saying that your repeated assertions that you can tell who is native american and who is not are nonsense. Regardless of where you live, or what you see on a daily basis.

Go back and look at your original post - it includes none of the perspective (what she asserts) that you are now focusing on. AND the original post did include (as did many that followed) YOUR assertions that you can tell by looking

[emmaverybo]

29. Thank you. I worked for a doctor, a descendant of a prominent Miwok Indian from 19th century, as

had been independently verified. He had blue eyes, very fair skin and hair. Another friend was bi-racial, Jewish and AA. Her mother and sister were very dark and she was very, very fair skinned blue eyed, light haired. My language teacher’s mother was Hispanic, Mexican, his father of Scottish descent. Fluent in Spanish, he has lived in Mexico, very close to mother and her heritage, but he takes after his father in looks and has reddish hair, blue eyes, very fair skin.

Many whose appearance does not conform to what is expected for their racial or ethnic background have had to hear slurs that would not have been said around them because “just kidding,” had their actual heritage been known.

[guillaumeb]

28. Recommended.

I never claim to be Cherokee.

Nor did my paternal grandmother, who was full blooded Cri.

[demigoddess]

30. my uncle told me we were part Cherokee. He was Mormon

but I figure it came from those 'genealogists' who used to scam people to get money. right before he died my uncle wrote and said "it took lots of time and lots of money but he had proved it". He died in the 80s before these DNA tests became available. I figured the "lots of money" meant he had been taken.

[unblock]

31. so, people who don't look enough like the stereotype should have papers to present?

my brother is genetically aryan. he was adopted as an infant and was raised jewish. should he carry his adoption certificate just in case he runs into you? would that even be enough to convince you?

when he and his now-wife were arranging his wedding, some rabbis refused to perform the ceremony unless he "converted" to judaism. to which he said, "from what??"

he identifies as jewish, judaism is the only religion he's even known, he's jewish.


this person seems to strongly identify as native america, why are you working hard to disprove it when her actions make it clear she's native american?

ethnic heritage can't be reduced to a few specific genes.

[Mike Nelson]

32. I remember hearing...

... about Cher being part Native American. No longer sure if she claimed it or her publicity folks... I had a few friends , then, saying they had some NA roots. Everyone considered it something to be proud of - and there was a respect for NA culture and a recognition of them. I never completely understood the "scandal" surrounding Elizabeth Warren. As long as she didn't benefit from it, what did it matter? I realize Native Americans consider it offensive... but I don't think it was meant to be...

[tirebiter]

34. The Cherokee Nation does not want DNA samples

For the thousandth time you’ve got to document relation to someone listed on the Dawes roll. DNA samples are not a way to get your blue card. It’s yet another form of racism to assume it will. Benign, because it just means nothing, but, please, stop putting wishful thinking ahead of truth. In the past the Cherokees were very accepting so we’ve cross pollinated with just about every race that has been through Georgia to Oklahoma.

[LeftInTX]

35. I see that in genealogy groups alot

The favorite lore is "My great grandmother was a Cherokee Princess."
And their DNA comes back as 0.

And then there is the rumor that Native American DNA doesn't show in DNA tests. But my husband's comes back at 49%, so there's that!

It's annoying. I think families sometimes attribute this to relatives who are "different". Also many white families fraudulently received land grants by claiming to be Native American.

You really can't tell by looks though, especially if someone is less than 1/4.

[Mariana]

43. ...the rumor that Native American DNA doesn't show in DNA tests.

Oh, yes, my cousin heard that one from a bunch of his friends, when his DNA test came back as 0. He accepted reality, though. Our Grandpa was a Caucasian man with dark skin, that's all.

[Tracer]

36. I have read that some Native American tribes do not want to give their DNA.

That's OK by me. It's their choice.

My two children are part Nanticoke, a tribe from Delaware. There was no need to do a DNA test, since their great grandparents were 100% Nanticoke. More than family lore, it is direct information from older relatives.

I think no more of it than I do of my Irish background. It's just a minor piece of interest.

Do they "look" Native American? No one would think so.

[yellerpup]

38. I'm a card-carrying member of the Cherokee tribe

and I live within the Cherokee Nation, a 14 county area in the state of Oklahoma. Our newly elected Chief is proud that "the Cherokee Nation has the most progressive government in the USA." True. Nothing about me says native to the casual observer, yet I am because my ancestors are on the Dawes Roll. It was a census of Indian Territory taken prior to statehood that required a person enrolling to state their blood quantum.

[H2O Man]

39. It was a common

feature of white families in the US to claim "Indian blood" between WW1 and WW2. Vine Deloria Jr. addressed this in the early 1970s. The three most popular "tribes" that people claimed were Cherokee, Sioux, and Mohawk. Such misinformation was frequently handed down to the newer generations, for a variety of reasons.

[Kaleva]

41. Some tribes accept those who are just 1/16th Native American (One Great-Great-Grandparent)

A classmate of mine back in high school had red hair and freckles and he was a member of the local tribe.

[Hortensis]

42. Sorry. Ours have always been very positive and charming in their

prides in various degrees of connections to some of America's original peoples, some known to be very distant. All of them, and I hope that DNA testing confirms all of their families' cherished tales.

I never thought I should require them to look more indigenous American than European, African or Panasian, Pacific Islander, or whatever, or that it would be appropriate to require the information passed down through imperfect and now dead memories be accurate when most of the time it was unavoidably very sketchy.

Even if you can't shut her up, I think if you were more accepting and respectful of her beliefs on those points alone, you would be less unnecessarily irritated.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

46. Oh, trust me. I never say anything or post anything

that gives away what I honestly think of her claim. I'm just venting here.

But at the risk of my repeating myself, she thinks that everyone should take one look at her and immediately recognize that she's Native American. And when I suggest that the claimed ethnicity is not obvious to the casual observer, I'm the one who gets dumped on. She comes across as one of those who has had the family story of NA ancestry and has simply run with it.