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babylonsister

(171,057 posts)
Fri Jan 6, 2012, 01:02 PM Jan 2012

The Santorum Baby Controversy

http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2012/1/6/92811/35480

The Santorum Baby Controversy

by BooMan
Fri Jan 6th, 2012 at 09:28:11 AM EST


In general, people who criticize the Santorum family for bringing their stillborn baby home to meet the kids are going to look worse than the family they are criticizing. The gruesome facts of this case don't matter. If you're envisioning a fully-formed baby, don't. If you've ever had a 20-week ultrasound where the doctor either found or did not find a penis, then you know what got brought home for the kids. Instead of a printout, something far more disturbing was distributed. But I am going to be savagely honest about this both for the critics and for the Santorums. The loss of a pregnancy at any stage of development is (or should be) the most intensely private thing that can possibly happen. It's so private, in fact, that I could never discuss my experiences beyond merely saying that I've had them. I've had them, and I learned one thing above all from the experiences. No one has the right, not even your closest loved ones, to inquire into the circumstances or details of your personal tragedy. I can think of nothing crueler than to ask questions about why a pregnancy was lost. If you've experienced a spontaneous abortion or an ectopic pregnancy, you will understand the need for a right to privacy. Nothing else could make that case for you in such a compelling and convincing manner.

snip//

This is why the legality of abortion is inseparable from the right to privacy. Even a society that held that abortion is morally wrong, would have to also hold that putting any burden on parents who have suffered a miscarriage is even more wrong. What's sad is that the Santorums didn't learn this lesson from their tragedy. What they did instead was to make their tragedy as public as possible and use their experience as a way to advocate for the mistreatment of others in their same situation.

How we balance the rights of a woman and the rights of a fetus is morally complicated, and different people will come to different conclusions. But, legally, anyone who has gone through what the Santorums went through, should be able to agree that the state has no legitimate role in making any inquiries of any kind.
31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Santorum Baby Controversy (Original Post) babylonsister Jan 2012 OP
There is much disagreement still today Angry Dragon Jan 2012 #1
But the fact is, it's none of my business. Too bad Santorum didn't learn from babylonsister Jan 2012 #3
Which, if proven would be signficant BUT... hlthe2b Jan 2012 #4
Even the "our abortion was different" article says medications to induce labor were refused. moriah Jan 2012 #5
Maybe this whole episode just shows his true love for "babies" from conception snooper2 Jan 2012 #2
I had a son who was stillborn. OneGrassRoot Jan 2012 #6
+1 cthulu2016 Jan 2012 #7
Thank you, and babylonsister Jan 2012 #8
... OneGrassRoot Jan 2012 #14
Thank you for sharing about Joshua. moriah Jan 2012 #9
Thank you... OneGrassRoot Jan 2012 #15
You are absolutley right... hlthe2b Jan 2012 #10
Thank you, hlthe2b... OneGrassRoot Jan 2012 #16
Very moving post RZM Jan 2012 #11
... OneGrassRoot Jan 2012 #17
I'm so sorry about your stillborn son vankuria Jan 2012 #12
I certainly understand that... OneGrassRoot Jan 2012 #13
This message was self-deleted by its author Bunny Jan 2012 #18
+1 uponit7771 Jan 2012 #22
Very well put! hamsterjill Jan 2012 #29
+1 hamsterjill Jan 2012 #31
thanks for sharing your terrible ordeal grantcart Jan 2012 #24
Amen. n/t easttexaslefty Jan 2012 #26
Another Inuca Jan 2012 #27
+1 Jankyn Jan 2012 #28
The Santorums made this as public as possible, Motown_Johnny Jan 2012 #19
Perfect example OneGrassRoot Jan 2012 #20
No, crazy is crazy Taverner Jan 2012 #21
Spot on! hamsterjill Jan 2012 #30
I disagree and here's why Matariki Jan 2012 #23
Unrec. emilyg Jan 2012 #25

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)
1. There is much disagreement still today
Fri Jan 6, 2012, 01:21 PM
Jan 2012

whether the pregnancy was induced or she went into labor.
For the average person this would not make any difference
but for santorum it does.
He goes around trying to make abortion illegal for all

babylonsister

(171,057 posts)
3. But the fact is, it's none of my business. Too bad Santorum didn't learn from
Fri Jan 6, 2012, 01:33 PM
Jan 2012

his experience, but I don't know that getting so personal about his family's tragedy benefits anyone.

hlthe2b

(102,231 posts)
4. Which, if proven would be signficant BUT...
Fri Jan 6, 2012, 01:35 PM
Jan 2012

it would never aid in making the point because the sympathy factor is just too strong. It would be akin to trying to assert a parent claiming a vaccine had caused the birth defect devastating their child had actually caused the damage by something they did themselves (e.g., non-prescribed medications, voluntary exposure to potentially toxic fumes, or something similar). While making the case might be necessary to counter an unwarranted lawsuit, to do so just to make a point, will inevitably paint the "accuser" as horrendously cruel and "immoral."

Yes, I agree that there could be a case made that in treating the uterine infection--which ultimately saved the Mother, that the miscarriage could have been either an intentional or consequential result. Nonetheless, I doubt one could ever succeed in changing attitudes towards Santorum from this exposure of hypocrisy--the sympathy factor is just too strong.

We shouldn't touch it with a twenty-foot pole, IMO...for both ethical (and strategic) reasons.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
5. Even the "our abortion was different" article says medications to induce labor were refused.
Fri Jan 6, 2012, 01:36 PM
Jan 2012

(It's very likely her medical records show a D&C or other surgical procedure to clean her out after the baby was born -- I think that's common in septic miscarriage to ensure all the infected material is removed).

I find this issue more compelling from the standpoint of the EMTALA and inevitable miscarriage of a nonviable fetus.

Regardless of if they accepted the life-saving treatment that was offered them -- labor induction -- it was offered to them despite the fact their baby still had a heartbeat. Their statements were to the effect that if there had been no other choice they would have induced. In many Catholic hospitals, the option would not have been available because the child still had a heartbeat, especially that close to the viability threshold. Physicians working in such hospitals are not even allowed to mention the option to their patients.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2636458/?tool=pubmed

Very good article on how miscarriages are handled in religious facilities.

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
2. Maybe this whole episode just shows his true love for "babies" from conception
Fri Jan 6, 2012, 01:29 PM
Jan 2012

He's was just being true to his morals


OneGrassRoot

(22,920 posts)
6. I had a son who was stillborn.
Fri Jan 6, 2012, 01:36 PM
Jan 2012

Yes, he was full-term, but I personally don't think it's for us to judge at what stage of development parents can bond when they are expecting.

I've only been able to glance at GD since there have been so many threads about this and the comments and OPs are not only offensive, they're sickening. And some of the people doing it have really surprised me.



Just as I don't want bible thumper types judging me and my choices, I am not judging this. It doesn't appear they politicized this event; they're sharing their story and their opinion. Sure I disagree with their views on right to life, but for anyone to criticize this very personal experience and how they handled it is the height of arrogant ignorance, imho.

I agree with the author of the OP: It's really one of those things that I don't believe anyone should be judging or ridiculing unless you've experienced the loss of a child.

I held my "rotting fetus" as one OP proclaimed -- because his skin had indeed started to decompose after only two days after his heartbeat stopped, before delivery -- and I did NOT want to let him go. I would have held him for a solid day and night if the hospital would have allowed.

If I would have had other children at the time, I would have encouraged (but not forced) them to see Joshua.

Grieving is a very individual process.

There are a ton of DUers being heartless shitheads about this.

I don't say this often or lightly, but unless you've experienced the birth and death of a child, I strongly advise people to shut the fuck up.

hlthe2b

(102,231 posts)
10. You are absolutley right...
Fri Jan 6, 2012, 01:40 PM
Jan 2012

One can speak to this pragmatically if you have never experienced it. For those who (sadly) HAVE, it is a far different matter.

I am sorry for your loss. I'm sorry for the pain you are re-experiencing from the insensitive discussions.

 

RZM

(8,556 posts)
11. Very moving post
Fri Jan 6, 2012, 01:45 PM
Jan 2012

I'm sorry for your loss and I applaud you for sharing this painful episode in an effort to make things better.

vankuria

(904 posts)
12. I'm so sorry about your stillborn son
Fri Jan 6, 2012, 01:59 PM
Jan 2012

I've been one of those people voicing my opinion and if I've offended you or anyone else my sincere apologies. And thank-you for sharing your personal story, it certainly gives this perspective and it probably wasn't an easy thing for you to share. That being said, I believe Rick Santorum opens himself up to criticism on this issue for a number of reasons and for me because he's made this story so public and even uses it in his campaign speeches. Mr. Santorum is the one putting this story out there every opportunity he has and by putting it into his presidential campaign it becomes fair game. I'm certainly not trying in any way to minimize the grief of having a baby die, but I find Mr. Santorum a hippocrate, thinking he's some kind of moral compass for everyone else, telling others how to live their lives, what to think, feel, etc. Whenever a pregnancy cannot continue to full term for whatever reason it is a private matter and Mr. Santorum has no right to sit in judgement of others. I think this is one of the reason this story has inflamed so many on DU.

OneGrassRoot

(22,920 posts)
13. I certainly understand that...
Fri Jan 6, 2012, 02:12 PM
Jan 2012

and the hypocrisy is what always gets to me as well.

It's fair to criticize his views and stance about issues, but for people to very specifically be ridiculing how the family personally handled this intimate event -- and to be doing so in such a callous manner -- is what I find so disturbing.

No, I hadn't noticed your posts about this, vankuria; I stopped reading early on.

But I hear you, and thank you for the reply.



Response to vankuria (Reply #12)

hamsterjill

(15,220 posts)
31. +1
Fri Jan 6, 2012, 04:26 PM
Jan 2012

I totally agree. Santorum made this public for his own political gain, therefore, it is fair game in the political debate. He is using the issue to get sympathy votes from the pro-life crowd.

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
24. thanks for sharing your terrible ordeal
Fri Jan 6, 2012, 02:38 PM
Jan 2012

it should be the last word here on the subject

sadly it will not be
 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
19. The Santorums made this as public as possible,
Fri Jan 6, 2012, 02:20 PM
Jan 2012

this places it into the public debate.


I'll agree that it is a touchy issue and should be dealt with as gently as possible but the fact that the Santorums aborted an "unborn child" needs to be part of the discussion.


The whole grotesque story about them bringing it home to meet the kids is something that should also be known. I think most people will be repulsed by this and presenting the truth about it isn't a problem.

Attacking them for it is different. The facts should simply be presented without commentary and let the voter make up his or her own mind.

OneGrassRoot

(22,920 posts)
20. Perfect example
Fri Jan 6, 2012, 02:30 PM
Jan 2012

"The whole grotesque story about them bringing it home to meet the kids is something that should also be known. I think most people will be repulsed by this and presenting the truth about it isn't a problem."

It's a shame, if true, that most people would be repulsed.

I wonder if those same people are parents, and if they have ever experienced the death of a child.

Judging and attacking any hypocrisy is fair game. But the above two sentences show extreme insensitivity about the matter of death and loss in general, imho.

 

Taverner

(55,476 posts)
21. No, crazy is crazy
Fri Jan 6, 2012, 02:33 PM
Jan 2012

Taking home a *baby* that is d̶e̶a̶d̶ ̶ playing with the baby Jesus at Heaven's Gymboree is fucking NUTS

/rant

Matariki

(18,775 posts)
23. I disagree and here's why
Fri Jan 6, 2012, 02:37 PM
Jan 2012

Santorum is vying for the position of President of The United States - one of the most powerful positions a person can be in, not just in this nation but in the entire world. That person's decisions will have very, very real consequences for most people living on the planet and so it is IMPERATIVE that all aspects of a person's mental health and decision making process be held up to the utmost scrutiny.

Sleeping with a dead fetus and bringing it home for your children to 'bond with' does NOT speak well of the man's decision making process. Or perhaps his mental health.

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