Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 08:56 PM Mar 2020

I managed to get myself embroiled in an argument w/ some right-wing idiots that

I went to college with (and used to be friends with) over "socialism" on Facebook (which I hate and hardly ever go on).

They are basically stating the horrors of socialism , in particular bringing up Venezuela, Russia, China, etc and I am arguing that our Democratic politicians are looking at more European models of socialism and political liberalism where the model does work for a majority of citizens, but they keep coming back at me with examples of the failures of socialist dictatorships and autocracies.

What is a good, concise argument to shut them up regarding the kind of (Democratic) European-style Socialism that our Dem politicians embrace to varying degrees (BTW, I'm not a Bernie fan for numerous reasons, but that doesn't mean I don't like some of his ideas) vs. the kind of "Socialism" that they are talking about. I would appreciate your advice. Thanks!

47 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
I managed to get myself embroiled in an argument w/ some right-wing idiots that (Original Post) smirkymonkey Mar 2020 OP
probably not what you want... but it is a fair analysis lapfog_1 Mar 2020 #1
Wow. Is that really true? smirkymonkey Mar 2020 #8
The Scandinavians are CAPITALISTS, not socialists. They practice a well-regulated pnwmom Mar 2020 #10
Ask them if they prefer an authoritarian dictatorship Sucha NastyWoman Mar 2020 #2
You could tell them that Sanders is really in support of regulated capitalism and not socialism. TwilightZone Mar 2020 #3
No, thank you. I appreciate your post. smirkymonkey Mar 2020 #11
Agreed. Socialism isn't the problem in Venezuela. TwilightZone Mar 2020 #22
That was his biggest mistake. smirkymonkey Mar 2020 #30
It IS all about branding. nt Ferrets are Cool Mar 2020 #37
As with most form of governing... 2naSalit Mar 2020 #4
I agree. I think Bernie made the mistake of not clarifying things enough for the masses. smirkymonkey Mar 2020 #31
Dude, they support a fucking grifter bigot LuvLoogie Mar 2020 #5
Heard this on an OLD TV show (1960's) MyOwnPeace Mar 2020 #7
I know that. I am thinking of just not engaging anymore. smirkymonkey Mar 2020 #33
You hit the nail on the head. If they haven't realized it by now, they aren't going to do so. Ferrets are Cool Mar 2020 #38
They already live with Socialism and don't have a problem with it. maxsolomon Mar 2020 #6
The problem is that they will never accept that explanation. smirkymonkey Mar 2020 #34
Many democratic socialists support the government providing essential services. guillaumeb Mar 2020 #9
Another point... Newest Reality Mar 2020 #12
'There is no such thing as society, there are only individuals and appalachiablue Mar 2020 #13
I just posted this elsewhere... handmade34 Mar 2020 #14
I like the concept, but it seems kind of like an oxymoron, since it seems like the goal of smirkymonkey Mar 2020 #18
Daily Kos: "75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America," hits all the major pluses. VOX Mar 2020 #15
Thank you! smirkymonkey Mar 2020 #19
A word of warning. TwilightZone Mar 2020 #24
Social *programs* are not socialism. The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2020 #29
Thank you for posting Ferrets are Cool Mar 2020 #39
It apparently rubs some DUers the wrong way as well. VOX Mar 2020 #41
Forget it. You'll never change their minds as two generations, boomers and... brush Mar 2020 #16
I know, I don't think he could win either. smirkymonkey Mar 2020 #20
It's continuing the policies of FDR eleny Mar 2020 #17
You're right. I sometimes regret even stepping into this in the first place. smirkymonkey Mar 2020 #21
Tell them you agree with them leftstreet Mar 2020 #23
If you're looking for a meeting of the minds gratuitous Mar 2020 #25
Any system left unfettered The Wizard Mar 2020 #26
Don't use the Scandinavian countries as your examples The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2020 #27
Bring up corporate socialism Zambero Mar 2020 #28
You know what they will say? smirkymonkey Mar 2020 #35
Actually, I usually just bring up all the services we socialize now... Happy Hoosier Mar 2020 #32
Completely agree. smirkymonkey Mar 2020 #36
Thankful I deleted Facebook a few years back. sarcasmo Mar 2020 #40
You've already lost the argument by accepting a falsehood GulfCoast66 Mar 2020 #42
plenty of failed capitalist states you could counter with 0rganism Mar 2020 #43
Remind them that social security, Medicare, our schools and lunatica Mar 2020 #44
This is how I deal with Facebook political discussions Sherman A1 Mar 2020 #45
Good advice, Sherman. smirkymonkey Mar 2020 #46
My pleasure Sherman A1 Mar 2020 #47
 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
8. Wow. Is that really true?
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 09:22 PM
Mar 2020

I am clearly not an expert in this area, nor even very well-informed. But why do so many Scandinavians and Northern Europeans seem so happy with their economic and political system if it places such a heavy burden on a majority of them?

pnwmom

(108,955 posts)
10. The Scandinavians are CAPITALISTS, not socialists. They practice a well-regulated
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 09:32 PM
Mar 2020

capitalism with significant taxes. They are "social democracies" with strong social safety nets -- not examples of socialism.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2018/07/08/sorry-bernie-bros-but-nordic-countries-are-not-socialist/#44b2cf9974ad

To the extent that the left wants to point to an example of successful socialism, not just generous welfare states, the Nordic countries are actually a poor case to cite. Regardless of the perception, in reality the Nordic countries practice mostly free market economics paired with high taxes exchanged for generous government entitlement programs.

First, it is worth noting that the Nordic counties were economic successes before they built their welfare states. Those productive economies, generating good incomes for their workers, allowed the governments to raise the tax revenue needed to pay for the social benefits. It was not the government benefits that created wealth, but wealth that allowed the luxury of such generous government programs.

Second, as evidence of the lack of government interference in business affairs, there is the fact that none of these countries have minimum wage laws. Unions are reasonably powerful in many industries and negotiate contracts, but the government does nothing to ensure any particular outcome from those negotiations. Workers are paid what they are worth, not based on government’s perception of what is fair.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/democrats-use-nordic-nations-as-models-of-socialism-they-actually-involve-a-lot-of-capitalism/2019/06/24/b6d9bbdc-945c-11e9-b58a-a6a9afaa0e3e_story.html

TwilightZone

(25,426 posts)
3. You could tell them that Sanders is really in support of regulated capitalism and not socialism.
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 09:07 PM
Mar 2020

You know, the truth. But that horse is probably out of the barn.

On the other hand, that might work as well as anything else. They get capitalism, so it's just a matter of convincing them that Bernie's brand of socialism isn't Venezuela or Russia, it's Denmark. Market economy, regulated capitalism. Leave out the part about high taxes.

The problem is: Bernie has been trying to explain it to everyone for five years and has been largely unsuccessful, so the odds that we'll be able to do any better aren't that great. Especially since what he's advocating for isn't really socialism.

I know that doesn't help, and I apologize. It really underscores, however, why it's such a challenge.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
11. No, thank you. I appreciate your post.
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 09:34 PM
Mar 2020

I think a big part of the difference between the Scandinavian countries and the others mentioned (and why they seem like such miserable dystopias) is the corruption and authoritarianism that those latter countries are famous for. Regardless of the economic system, nobody is happy under a repressive, authoritarian, corrupt regime.

And I agree that nobody is advocating for a system of pure socialism. I just want a simple way to explain it to people because I really don't think anyone really gets the fact that there are nuances and many permutations depending upon where you fall on the scale politically and economically.

You could have a country that is purely socialist economically and authoritarian and fascist politically or a country that is a small "s" socialist, market economy with a liberal, representative democracy. Or there could be many combinations along the spectrum. The same with capitalism. I don't know if I am making any sense. I'm tired. I know what I mean, but I'm not sure I am communicating it very well.

Thank you for your post!

TwilightZone

(25,426 posts)
22. Agreed. Socialism isn't the problem in Venezuela.
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 10:26 PM
Mar 2020

Venezuela is the problem in Venezuela, more accurately the political leadership in recent times, the type of socialism in use, and the way it was deployed.

I do get what you mean, and I agree. The problem with labels and the stereotypes they're based on is that they're never universal and they oversimplify everything. For example, what's a liberal? What's a moderate? How does a moderate differ from a moderate Democrat, and what is the latter? We can't even get a consensus on terms we're sure we understand.

That's the challenge we face with socialism, the term, and socialism, the concept. A couple of generations of Americans think of socialism as one of the S's in USSR (or the Nazis, even worse), and that's where their understanding stops because that's the only explanation they think they need. That's an extraordinary hurdle to try to cross. Plus, there's a significant generation gap, which is probably why it's easier to sell to younger voters. Venezuela only makes it worse because it puts a present-day stamp on the negativity of socialism as a concept. With a real-world example so readily available, it's a similarly huge hurdle.

At the risk of repeating myself, a lot of this could have been avoided if Sanders had rebranded himself at some point (the early/mid 1980s would have been great) with a more accurate label. He tried Democratic Socialist, but Socialist is still the noun and I don't think that convinces anyone. Plus, the DSA's policies are on the extreme side (though, he's not a member). He's quite recently tried to rebrand as a social democrat, which has a zillion different meanings, some of them much closer to what he represents, and the most appropriate would be: like Denmark. Market economy, regulated capitalism, societal responsibility, safety nets. That's a lot easier than trying to explain why you're not like the Nazis or Venezuela. (ha)

That's why I (only half-jokingly) said that we could try the truth, and explain that he's really a regulated capitalist. The problem is that damn label.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
30. That was his biggest mistake.
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 11:20 PM
Mar 2020

He didn't get the concept of branding. And I think if he had, he could have had a much better chance. Unfortunately in this day and age, it's really all about branding. Most people just heard the label "Socialist" and freaked. No matter how much he explained, he could not change their ingrained concept of that world.

Nice chatting with you TwilightZone. I like your screen name. I pretty much feel like that is what the past three and a half years have been like.

2naSalit

(86,321 posts)
4. As with most form of governing...
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 09:08 PM
Mar 2020

Socialism is not necessarily bad or evil. It's when these systems are corrupted by greed for power and money that they quickly end up being a big human disaster.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
31. I agree. I think Bernie made the mistake of not clarifying things enough for the masses.
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 11:22 PM
Mar 2020

People just hear "socialism" and have their own ideas. They don't understand that many of them are benefitting from socialist programs right now.

LuvLoogie

(6,911 posts)
5. Dude, they support a fucking grifter bigot
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 09:10 PM
Mar 2020

whose top immigration advisor deploys child torture as a policy. Fuck them. Ridicule them. Don't argue economics.

Laugh at them. Point out the wreckage and injustice perpetrated by trump with their approval.

You don't even have to call them racist shit heads. Just keep reminding them what a piece of shit trump is while he gloats in the yellow puddle that was conservatism.

MyOwnPeace

(16,917 posts)
7. Heard this on an OLD TV show (1960's)
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 09:21 PM
Mar 2020

"Run For Your Life" - great show with Ben Gazzara.

But it was this quote by William Lloyd Garrison that has stuck with me:

"With reasonable men, I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter, nor waste arguments where they will certainly be lost."

-----William Lloyd Garrison

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
33. I know that. I am thinking of just not engaging anymore.
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 11:24 PM
Mar 2020

It's probably pointless. They will never understand, no matter how much you try to educate them. They are as dense as black holes.

Ferrets are Cool

(21,102 posts)
38. You hit the nail on the head. If they haven't realized it by now, they aren't going to do so.
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 11:46 PM
Mar 2020

They are even more dense than orangeanus, and that is saying a lot.

maxsolomon

(33,240 posts)
6. They already live with Socialism and don't have a problem with it.
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 09:16 PM
Mar 2020

SOCIAL Security
Police
Fire
Schools
Public Libraries

Socialism is not Stalin and Pol Pot, just like Conservatism isn't Hitler and Mussolini.

TOTALITARIANISM isn't Left or Right.

Sanders has repeated said he is a Democratic Socialist. This NORDIC MODEL is vastly different from Latin American Socialist states. One main difference is that they haven't been under relentless economic assault from the US.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
34. The problem is that they will never accept that explanation.
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 11:27 PM
Mar 2020

They have their minds made up. I am thinking that I may just give up on this feud. It's too frustrating and it just make me too angry when I hear what they have to say. They are hopeless. I have thought about it and I am just setting myself up for more abuse.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
9. Many democratic socialists support the government providing essential services.
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 09:24 PM
Mar 2020

Police, fire, water, healthcare, utilities, and things related to public services.

In the USSR, at least in theory, the government provided everything, including consumer goods.

Newest Reality

(12,712 posts)
12. Another point...
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 09:37 PM
Mar 2020

We already have socialism. That is really overlooked and even obscured. Many industries are the recipients of socialism to the degree that the amount of that borders on the state/corporate merging as per Fascism.

The problem is about WHO gets the socialism. If the people are the recipients it is bad, communist, destructive and whatever jingoistic tag the detractors want to use. If big businesses receive it, (and copiously) they have newspeak terms to distract us from that fact.

In fact, not only do large corporations, etc., receive it they are able to both utilize our public infrastructure to do business while also having no liability for the overall negative impact that their businesses have on that infrastructure or the environment, locally and globally.

Of course, if you look that up you should be able to find plenty of material that goes into that in depth.

appalachiablue

(41,102 posts)
13. 'There is no such thing as society, there are only individuals and
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 09:38 PM
Mar 2020

families,' Margaret Thatcher. Pure libertarian, Ayn Rand economics of focusing selfishly on individuals, and not society as a whole, as in all of us contributing and looking out for each other and the 'commons' we share by paying taxes. People in Nordic countries don't think their taxes are that high, why would they?

I know Asians who are in the US, Canada, Norway and Britain. For some time the Americans always complain about the 'high taxes in Norway' after returning from visiting family members there. If they didn't have the lower US tax system for comparison they wouldn't be making such a big deal out of it.

I usually start yelling and say, the Nordics are lucky, they get to live in a safe, progressive society with services and agencies that benefit all, unlike us here in the US- selfish, greed nation.

handmade34

(22,756 posts)
14. I just posted this elsewhere...
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 09:43 PM
Mar 2020

...a better name...would be compassionate capitalism

If the left insists on naming a system of generous government benefits combined with a free market democratic socialism, I cannot stop them. That seems unnecessarily confusing since the government is actually running no industries other than education (and meddling somewhat in healthcare). It certainly isn’t socialism. In fact, the only reason most such countries can afford those benefits is that their market economies are so productive they can cover the expense of the government’s generosity. Perhaps a better name for what the Nordic countries practice would be compassionate capitalism


https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2018/07/08/sorry-bernie-bros-but-nordic-countries-are-not-socialist/#66cc929a74ad
 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
18. I like the concept, but it seems kind of like an oxymoron, since it seems like the goal of
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 10:14 PM
Mar 2020

capitalism (at least the way it is in this country) is to always be maximizing profits and increasing shareholder value at the expense of the worker.

It seems to work in Nordic countries, but I am not so sure it would work here. We don't have the same concept of working together for the common good. Here, it is the survival of the fittest and if someone can't cut it, then they deserve their horrible fate. We don't have the same compassion for our fellow citizen that they do.

VOX

(22,976 posts)
15. Daily Kos: "75 Ways Socialism Has Improved America," hits all the major pluses.
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 09:44 PM
Mar 2020

You’ll find everything you need here, including some smooth language for enlightenment. (Be sure to read to the very end!) Don’t expect a miracle of conversion, but good luck anyway.

https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2012/3/29/1078852/-75-Ways-Socialism-Has-Improved-America
<snip>
I know, I know. You're a conservative that believes in freedom and the constitution. You hate handouts and believe in hard work and the individual. You think government should get out of the way and let you live your lives and allow you to prosper on your own. You know that all rich people must have worked hard and all poor people are lazy. There is no other reason why they could be poor considering life is completely fair and all people are born into situations and environments that allow them to have all the opportunities and blessings that you had. There is no fathomable way they could have 2 or 3 jobs they work very hard at but still can't make ends meet. You got it all figured out.

But still, even you get your kicks from a little socialism every now and then.

Don't think of this as an intervention, think of it as a coming out of the closet party. We know you are a closet socialist. It's okay, you are amongst friends and we support you. Besides, we always knew...

Socialism is taxpayer funds being used collectively to benefit society as a whole, despite income, contribution, or ability.

Sounds horrible, huh?

Well I hate to be the one to tell you, but Socialism, which you have been told to fear all your life, is responsible for all this...

1. The Military/Defense - The United States military is the largest and most funded socialist program in the world. It operates thanks to our taxpayer dollars and protects the country as a whole. From the richest citizens to the homeless who sleep under the bridge. We are all protected by our military whether we pay taxes or not. This is complete socialism.

2. Highways/Roads - Those roads and highways you drive on every single day are completely taxpayer funded. Your tax dollars are used to maintain, expand, and preserve our highways and roads for every one's use. President Eisenhower was inspired by Germany's autobahn and implemented the idea right here in America. That's right, a republican president created our taxpayer funded, national highway system. This was a different time, before the republican party came down with a vicious case of rabies that never went away.

3. Public Libraries - Yes. That place where you go to check out books from conservative authors telling you how horrible socialism is, is in fact socialism. Libraries are taxpayer funded. You pay a few bucks to get a library card and you can read books for free for the rest of your life.

4. Police - Ever had a situation where you had to call the police? Then you have used a taxpayer funded socialist program. Anyone can call the police whether they pay taxes or not. They are there to protect and serve the community, not individuals. This is complete socialism on a state level, but still socialism all the same. Would you rather have to swipe your credit card before the police will help you?

5. Fire Dept. - Hopefully you have never had a fire in your home. But if you have, you probably called your local taxpayer-funded fire department to put the fire out. Like police, this is state socialism. You tax dollars are used to rescue your entire community in case of a fire. It use to be set up where you would pay a fee every month to the fire dept. for their service. If you didn't pay, they let your house burn down. Sadly, a man from Tennessee had this exact situation happen to him in 2011 because he didn't pay his $75.00 fee. I guess that small town in Tennessee would rather let people's houses burn down that resort to evil socialism. So don't take for granted the fact that you have a 24/7 fire dept. to put out your burning home thanks to socialism.

6. Postal Service - Like having mail delivered directly to your front door and paying next to nothing to send mail anywhere you want? Well it's all made possible by socialism.

7. Student Loans and Grants - Did you go to College? If you did, you family might not have been rich enough to pay your way through. So you got your education anyway through student loans and grants from the federal government at taxpayer expense. Of course you have to pay back the loans, but if not the government, did you know anyone else who was going to lend you tens of thousands of dollars? Probably not. So the taxpayers lent you the money and you paid it back with slight interest. The government grants you accepted were gifts from the taxpayer and the federal government that you did not have to pay back. Socialism got you through school.

8. Bridges - Along with our highways, our government used your taxpayer dollars to build bridges. This allows the public to travel across rivers without having to sail or swim.

9. Garbage Collection - Like having your garbage collected once a week instead of having to drive it to the landfill yourself? Thank socialism.

10. Public Landfills - Taxpayer dollars are used to have places to dump all of our garbage that is collected by taxpayer funded garbage men.

11. War - That's right! War would not be possible without socialism. Your tax dollars are used to fight wars for your country. This is Big Government at it's biggest. Private companies don't attack other countries, at least not yet. Government is the only entity in America that can defend us from foreign enemies and our tax dollars are used for every second of it. Socialism has brought down Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein, and Bin Laden. War may very well be the most socialist thing on this list.

12. Farm Subsidies - Our government uses taxpayer funds to pay farmers and businesses to provide their income and keep them growing food for the public.

13. CIA - The Central Intelligence Agency is vital to America's security. The CIA is completely taxpayer funded to protect the public from enemies.

14. FBI - The Federal bureau of investigations is a taxpayer funded government agency.

15. Congressional Health Care - As Republicans in congress warn us of the evils of government-run health care, most of them are covered by taxpayer-funded government-run health care. You literally pay for their health care while they tell you that paying for your neighbors health care through a public option or single-payer system is socialism. They are 100% correct, it is socialism. They're just not telling you that they like their socialist health care, they just don't think you should have it. They are afraid you might like it better than the private insurance you have now that funds their campaigns and gives them money to push what is best for them and not for you. Members of congress are free to opt out of their evil government health care, but most of them don't because deep down, they like socialism too.

16. Polio Vaccine - In the 1950's polio ravaged the United States. Until Dr. Jonas Salk invented a cure, finally ridding America of this terrible disease. Dr. Salk could have sold his vaccine in the free market and made millions and millions of dollars. Instead he gave it to the federal government to begin eradicating polio. He said that he made plenty of money as a scientist and felt it was too important to try and profit from or create a business around.

17. EPA - Republicans hate this taxpayer-funded government program because they have the nerve to tell corporations that they may have to follow environmental rules ad regulations for the greater good of the earth and the people who live on it. But if you don't like breathing mercury, drinking dirty water, and breathing in chemicals, you should like this example of socialism working for the people.

18. Social Security - You pay a tax to help ensure that our grandparents and senior citizens of America have money to live off of when they are retired or too elderly to work. I love hearing rich people bitch about this one because the truth is that they do not pay a social security tax, like most payroll taxes. This little piece of socialism helps prevent our senior citizens from sinking into poverty and starving to death.

19. Museums - Many museums are privately owned by organizations and groups, but many are also taxpayer-funded state, national, and federal museums.

20. Public Schools - Can't afford to send your children to an expensive private school? Thanks to socialism and government, you child can still get an education. Public education has been under attack for decades in this country by the radical right because public schools don't teach Christianity to your children and it enables people like Barack Obama to work hard, gain scholarships, and eventually become President of the United States.

21. Jail/Prison System - Many murders and criminals are behind bars right now and not out on the streets because of our taxpayer-funded, federal and state run jails and prisons. Taxpayer money is collected and used to help protect all of society from murders, molesters, rapist, etc. I know there's a lot of disagreement and controversy about how to handle our prison system, but I think we can all agree that serial killers should not be freed into society. There are also many private prisons in the United States. However, they have a higher escape rate than their socialist counterpart. Besides, don't you see the bad incentives in having a private prison system that profits from having people in prison? Since a business's top goal is to make more money than the year before, the only feasible agenda would be to get everyone in prison.

22. Corporate/Business Subsidies - This is the type of socialism that is acceptable in the Republican party. You tax dollars are given to big corporations to do things they should be doing anyway out of morals and ethics. Like not sending jobs overseas and hiring people. Wouldn't you like a nice big check just for not breaking the law? To be fair though, many businesses do earn their subsidies by advancing green technology and practice, donating to charity, helping communities, etc. They aren't all bad. People just get mad when big billionaire oil companies get billions of their taxpayer dollars while they're paying $4 at the pump. For the corporations that don't earn their subsidies other than donating to their very own political party, it's merely welfare. Though however you look at it, it is socialism.

23. Veteran's (VA) Health Care - Our soldiers bravely go to foreign countries and risk their lives at the request of their government and the American people. For those who survive, we as a country feel committed and obligated to ensure that they have everything they need for the rest of their lives for their service to us in which we could never fully repay. So we the taxpayers fund their health care in a government-run single-payer system for veterans. Many soldiers return with mental and/or physical health issues that would cost them thousands in a private health care plan. Socialism funds the military, the overall war, and also takes care of our troops when they return home.

24. Public Parks - Like going to the park on a sunny day? Just being able to walk right in, or at the worse pay a small fee? This is once again the work of socialism. If it were private, it wouldn't be a park, it would be someones back yard. That small or non-existent fee will turn into a $15 fee faster than you can say "No Trespassing".

25. All Elected Government Officials - From the Supreme Court, to the President of the United States and all the way down to the County Dog Catcher, taxpayers pay their salary and provide the funding for them to do their job. We pay for every aspect of their job. So in a sense, I guess you could say our whole country is run on socialism.

26. Food Stamps - Republicans fill with bitter contempt knowing that our government at the expense of the taxpayer is giving poor people money to buy food they couldn't otherwise afford. This, like welfare, is what the right thinks socialism is all about, along with mass murder. However, just like corporate welfare, welfare is socialism. I'll just end this one with a quick story. I have been down and out in periods of my life and sought assistance via food stamps. Even though I was what anyone would consider poor, I was not poor enough to get food stamps. Which means people who do get them, must really, really need them. As far as my personal experience, they weren't thrown around like candy the way the right would have you believe.

27. Sewer System - Do you like having a sewer system to remove waste and prevent pollution and disease from seeping into our environment? Thank the taxpayers of America and the socialist system it operates in.

28. Medicare - Medicare is one of the most liked socialist programs in America. Most of us don't mind paying taxes to provide our senior citizens with health care and hope the next generation will do the same for us. If you don't believe me, just look at almost any poll. Most seniors would not be able to afford private health care. So this form of socialism is a life saver for this nation's grandparents and senior citizens.

29. Court System - Whether it's the murder trial of the century or a case in a small claims court, the taxpayers of America fully fund our courts and legal process. You may pay for your own lawyer, but the courtroom, judge, and jury is paid for through socialist means.

30. Bird Flu Vaccine - You don't have bird flu right now and probably aren't worried about it because our federal government used taxpayer funds to pump vaccines all over America.

31. G.I. Bill - The G.I. bill allows veterans to pursue an education by using taxpayer dollars to help them pay for most of their schooling. It also helps them with loans, savings, and unemployment benefits.

32. Hoover Dam - Remember when our country use to build things? Our government built the Hoover Dam using taxpayer funds. It is now a vital source of power for the west coast.

33. State/City Zoos - American families have been going to the zoo for generations. A place where kids and adults can have fun seeing creatures and animals from all over the world and learn at the same time. Many zoos are ran by the state and/or city, using taxpayer funds to operate and even bring the animals to the zoo.

34. IRS - I know, the IRS is about as popular and well liked in America as a hemorrhoid, but think about it. The IRS is the reason that we have anything. The IRS collects taxpayer funds for the federal government. The government then dispenses these funds to our military, states, and social programs. If there is no one collecting taxes, no one will pay them. If no one pays taxes, our country shuts down. Without money to operate, nothing operates. This may sound like a good thing to some radical republicans, but for those of us with sense, we know this means anarchy in the USA. The IRS gets a bad rap because if you don't pay your taxes or owe them money, they can be ruthless. Like everything else, the IRS is not perfect, but without them we literally have no country or no means to run it.

35. Free Lunch Program - Some children are living in poverty by no fault of their own. I'm not saying it is even their parents fault, but you surely cannot blame a child for the situation they are born into. In most if not all states, there are programs where children who live in poor households can receive school lunch for free. The taxpayers of the state pay for this. Sounds like socialism to me, and also the moral and Christian thing to do.

36. The Pentagon - Our defense system in America is a socialist system from top to bottom. We as taxpayers fund the pentagon completely.

37. Medicaid - Our government uses taxpayer funds to provide health care for low-income people. Republicans, the compassionate Christians that they are, absolutely hate this program. What they fail to understand is that when people can't afford to pay their outrageous medical bills, they don't. This bill does not disappear. The loss that the insurance company, doctor's office, or hospital takes gets passed down to everyone else. So covering people and giving them a low-income option reduces costs for them and everyone else. This is the main argument behind a health care mandate. It's not to force you to buy health care out of cruelty. If everyone is covered, costs drop for everyone. If you have no compassion for the uninsured, you can at least understand the rational in a selfish sense.

38. FDA - The Food and Drug Administration is far from perfect. It is infested with corporate corruption and they have been wrong many, many times. Countless times they have approved things that they later have to apologize for and have banned things that would have helped people. However, they have also stopped many harmful foods and products from being sold to the public and protect us everyday from poisons being disguised as products. While not perfect, they are needed to prevent harmful food and drugs from being sold to you and you family. Without them, corporations can send whatever they want to your supermarkets and drug stores without any testing or evaluation. I don't mind my taxes going towards a middle man to inspect the safety of the products we are being sold everyday.

39. Health Care for 9/11 Rescue Workers - After beating back GOP obstruction, Democrats finally passed a bill last year to allow government to help 9/11 rescue worker's with their health care after many came down with horrible lung diseases from the toxins they breathed in rescuing people from smoldering buildings. These brave citizens risked their lives and health to help complete strangers. They deserve more, but covering their health care is a good start.

40. Swine Flu Vaccine - Do you have swine flu right now? Then thank government and the socialist structure.

41. Disability Insurance (SSDI) - For those who are disabled and cannot work, our government provides an income for them via taxpayer dollars as opposed to the other option of letting them starve to death.

42. Town/State Run Beaches - Like going to the beach? Like it when the beach is clean and safe? Like having lifeguards on staff in case of an emergency? Then once again, thank the taxpayers and the socialist structure that makes it all possible.

43. Corporate Bailouts/Welfare - The whole point of this post is to prove that we ALL use, benefit from, and like socialism. This example is a form of socialism that the republicans not only like, but fight tooth and nail for. They don't like it when socialism is used for working/poor people, but when it's for millionaires and their corporate donors, socialism becomes as American as apple pie. The middle/working class who are the majority of taxpayers pay for welfare for corporations and people who have more money than all of us combined. When our government bails out a bank or gives a subsidy to a billion dollar corporation, you are paying for it.

44. State Construction - Ever see those construction workers in your town fixing potholes, erecting buildings, repaving highways and roads, and fixing things all over town? They themselves and the work they do is taxpayer-funded state socialism.

45. Unemployment Insurance - All your working life, you pay payroll taxes. Some of these taxes go toward a program that temporarily provides for people who lost their jobs until they can find another one. You pay for others, others pay for you. Especially these days, you never know when you might lose your job. You may need temporary assistance until you get back on your feet. The government recognizes this. UI also keeps the economy moving in times of recession because people still have some money in their pockets to buy goods and promote demand.

46. City/Metro Buses - If you lack transportation, you can catch a city bus. Taxpayer funds and the fee you pay to take the bus make it possible for millions of people to go to work.
47. WIC - WIC is a federally funded program to assist women, infants, and children. WIC helps low-income families by providing funding for nutrition, education, and health care for children.

48. State Snow Removal - Even though sometimes it may take them longer than you like to get to your street, do you like having snow plow service to clear our roads and highways in the winter? This is a state socialist taxpayer-funded service.

49. PBS (Public Broadcasting Service) - PBS operates on donations and government funding. The provide non-partisan news and information to the public. They are the home of Sesame Street, Masterpiece Theater, and The Antiques Roadshow. Surveys show that they are literally the most trusted name in news. I wonder how Fox feels about that?

50. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) - The CDC helps promote and enact the health and safety of the public along with helping to prevent and control illness and disease. The CDC is a government program that operates on taxpayer funding.

51. Welfare - Is there anything the republicans hate more? Of course I'm talking about the welfare that goes to poor people. Corporate welfare is not only accepted in the republican Kabul, but it's mandatory that we give our tax dollars to billionaires and not question the logic of it. Though if you look at it realistically and not through the red scare glasses in which the right sees the world, welfare helps the economy. As I've said many times, when poor people have money in their pocket, they buy things made and sold by companies. This creates a demand. To keep up with demand, businesses must hire to keep up. If you yanked everyone who is on welfare off of it tomorrow, the economy would take a blow and lose jobs due to the down tick in consumer demand because we just took what little money they had away.

52. Public Street Lighting - Like being able to see at night when you walk or drive? Thank Socialism.

53. FEMA - If Disaster strikes, FEMA is there to help pick up the pieces. As a part of homeland security and an agency of the federal government, they use taxpayer dollars to help cities, states, and towns recover and rebuild. I don't know to many private companies that could assist in disaster relief and ask nothing in return. Thank God for socialism.

54. Public Defenders - Ever been in trouble and couldn't afford a lawyer? Well the taxpayers and the government make sure you still get representation.

55. S-CHIP (State Children's Health Insurance Program) - S-CHIP is a program that matches funds to states for health insurance for children in families that cannot afford insurance but make too much to qualify for Medicaid. Your tax dollars go towards covering uninsured children, is that so wrong?

56. Amtrak - Amtrak transports tens of millions of passengers a year in 46 states and three Canadian Providences. It is owned by the federal government and your tax dollars are used to fund it. All aboard!!

57. NPR - National Public Radio operates on private and federal funding along with public donations. NPR has been one of the most trusted news sources in America for over 40 years.

58. The Department of Homeland Security - Created after the terrorist attacks on 9/11, this heavily federally funded department of the U.S. government helps protect us from future terrorist attacks. This is the third largest department within the United States government.

59. OSHA - Do you have a safe and healthy workplace that provides training, outreach, education, and assistance? Thank OSHA! Brought to you by the taxpayers of America and socialism.

60. State and National Monuments - The Lincoln Memorial. Mount Rushmore. The D.C. National Mall. All brought to you and maintained with your tax dollars. Socialism is patriotic?

61. The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) - The USDA enforces regulations on the farming, agriculture, and food industries to ensure food safety, natural resources, and hunger worldwide and in the United States. Your tax dollars are used to help keep what you are eating safe and even feed those who are not eating.

62. Government Scholarships - if you work hard in school and show true potential, our government will give you a scholarship towards college so you can advance your education. Your tax dollars have been used to send future doctors, lawyers, scientists, and even presidents of the United States to college.

63. Department of Health and Human Service - The overall goal of HHS is to promote, implement, and ensure the health of the American people. Your tax dollars are used to do this. Government looking out for the well being of it's people, imagine that!

64. Census Bureau - Every ten years, our government collects data about our people and economy, to better serve and represent us. From the forms that are sent to your home for you to fill out and send back in and to the census worker who shows up and kindly asks you to fill out the form if you don't send it in, all taxpayer funded socialism. The information collected is used to better understand the economic situation and population in your area. Not to enslave you in a FEMA camp.

65. Department of Energy - This taxpayer funded cabinet of the federal government oversees nuclear weapons, nuclear reactors, energy conservation, radioactive waste disposal, and energy production. To those of you who care about our environment and would rather not witness a nuclear holocaust might consider this money well spent.

66. Customs and Border Protection - the CBP is the largest law enforcement agency in America. This is big government that republicans actually do like because they don't like Mexicans immigrating to our country like our ancestors did. However, this taxpayer funded, socialist agency of the federal government regulates trade, imports, and immigration.

67. Department of Education - This cabinet of the federal government is actually the smallest. They administer and oversee federal assistance to education. They also collect data and enforce federal laws and regulations involving education. Even though the right thinks that this department is indoctrinating your children, they actually have no control over curriculum or standards.

68. Secret Service - Your tax dollars are used to provide highly-trained, skilled professional bodyguards to protect the President of the United States.

69. Peace Corps - The Peace Corps is a volunteer program run by the government that helps people outside of the US to understand our culture as well as helping us learn about other cultures. However they are more well known for their work with economic and social development in less-fortunate countries. Sounds very Christian for being a socialist program, huh?

70. Department of Justice - The DOJ is responsible for enforcing the law. Socialism keeps our civilization intact.

71. National Weather Service - Like knowing when a storm, tornado, earthquake, or snow is coming? Socialism makes this possible and available to everyone.

72. The White House - Our taxpayer dollars through a socialist means pays for the house that the president and his family live in during a presidents time in office.

73. Government - Like it or not, our country would not be a country without a government. Every single day, government on state and local levels serve us in ways we simply take for granted. Government as an entity operates and functions on our tax dollars through a socialist structured funding system. From the military down to the county dog catcher, socialism turns the wheels that make our society function.

74. Law - Laws and rules make our democracy possible. Remove these laws and you have sheer anarchy. Laws do not appear out of thin air. To have law, you need a government. You need elected lawmakers to make the laws and a government to implement and enforce them. Socialism is responsible for every law in this country. Without our government and lawmakers which exist thanks to socialism, there would be no laws. So the laws themselves, are enforced and implemented thanks to socialism.

75. Civilization - As an American citizen, you enjoy freedoms that many in other countries do not. Like anything else in this world, our government is not perfect, but you should be thankful everyday that your country has a government that feels an obligation to serve the people and protect their rights and freedoms. This is completely possible because of government, taxes, and socialism. Do you think the private sector would do a better job of governing our country? Do you think corporations would enact laws to help protect and serve you and your family or them and their profits? The reason you can read this blog and the reason I can write it whether you agree with it or not is because of the freedoms we have here in America enforced and protected through socialist means. Our entire civilization depends on us being a people united. Socialism is a glue that binds us together and makes possible the things that we could not accomplish as individuals working against each other.
<snip>

TwilightZone

(25,426 posts)
24. A word of warning.
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 10:31 PM
Mar 2020

That list has been discussed a lot in various quarters, and a lot of the things on the list only meet the definition of socialism in very vague terms or with a lot of creative interpretation. Some of them fit better than others. Some of them aren't socialism at all. The ratio depends on what one considers socialism and how one thinks it applies.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,582 posts)
29. Social *programs* are not socialism.
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 10:44 PM
Mar 2020

Socialism is an economic system in which the government owns and controls the means of production and distribution. We don't have that and no other stable first-world country in the world does, either.

Ferrets are Cool

(21,102 posts)
39. Thank you for posting
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 11:48 PM
Mar 2020

even though it still will not change the minds of those with their heads in the sand.

VOX

(22,976 posts)
41. It apparently rubs some DUers the wrong way as well.
Thu Mar 5, 2020, 01:07 AM
Mar 2020

Seems like a semantics battle between “socialism” and “social programs.”

I won’t join the fray.

brush

(53,738 posts)
16. Forget it. You'll never change their minds as two generations, boomers and...
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 09:55 PM
Mar 2020

Last edited Wed Mar 4, 2020, 10:29 PM - Edit history (1)

genXers, were schooled in their formative years to fear socialism, the USSR, Red China, the iron curtain, failed communist communes, Khrushchev, Brezhnev, etc. Many know better now but millions of voters still retain those views and fears.

What I don't understand is how, Sanders, a grown-ass man, who has lived in this country all his life can so misread the zeitgeist of the nation and mislead his supporters into thinking that this country will elect a socialist when there are still millions like the low-info boobs you ran into—especially now when there is no economic downturn. It's just not going to happen. His naivete is stunning. Why do you think trump and the repugs keep pushing for Sanders? They know the country is not going to elect a socialist so they want him to be trump's opponent.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
20. I know, I don't think he could win either.
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 10:20 PM
Mar 2020

It just infuriates me when they think that any kind of social program that helps the masses and might require a bit of a sacrifice from the bloated rich means that we are on a par with nations like Venezuela and other failed governments. It is a false equivalency and I am tired of the comparisons.

eleny

(46,166 posts)
17. It's continuing the policies of FDR
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 10:06 PM
Mar 2020

He had plans for universal health care. And he was following in the footsteps of his cousin Teddy Roosevelt, a Republican, who wanted universal health care.

Keep it short, say your peace and then tell them you're done and mean it. If they want to get silly talking about dictatorships just tell them that fascism is Trump's goal. And then stop arguing. Give them something to think about and then end it. It's better for your health.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
21. You're right. I sometimes regret even stepping into this in the first place.
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 10:23 PM
Mar 2020

I see things like this all the time from people I know and so far have been pretty good about keeping my mouth shut, but I couldn't seem to hold back this time. Big mistake. I should really just delete my account and be done with it. I rarely even go on, but there are also a lot of great liberals on my feed and it's nice to see them too.

However, I have DU, so I don't really need FB, do I? Thanks eleny!

leftstreet

(36,097 posts)
23. Tell them you agree with them
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 10:28 PM
Mar 2020

You're sick and tired of freeloaders who don't EARN what they've got!

You want to see all fire and police services be FOR FEE ONLY. Make these losers who think they can just call 911 whenever they do something stupid PAY


gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
25. If you're looking for a meeting of the minds
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 10:34 PM
Mar 2020

If you're looking to score political points and pwn the conservawhackos, there's probably a lot of good tactics, comebacks and zingers.

But if you're looking for a meeting of the minds, first and foremost, define your terms. You and your idiot friends are using the same language and the same words, but you probably don't mean the same thing when you use those words. That leads to a lot of confusion, and not much useful discussion happens. It can be as basic as "What do you mean when you say 'socialism'?" Is it using our pooled tax resources to spend on public works your idiot friends don't like? Because that's not really socialism. So it's important to know what you mean and what your idiot friends mean when you all use words.

One of the salutary effects of doing this is it sharpens up your own thinking on subjects. When you know what you think, you can express yourself better and more precisely and call out fuzzy-headed bullshit when it gets invoked.

The Wizard

(12,534 posts)
26. Any system left unfettered
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 10:41 PM
Mar 2020

by checks and balances eventually becomes totalitarian and destroys itself from within, kind of like what we're doing now. When business interests run the government it's called fascism according to the father of fascism, Benito Mussolini.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,582 posts)
27. Don't use the Scandinavian countries as your examples
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 10:42 PM
Mar 2020

because those are not socialist countries by any stretch of the imagination. They are capitalist, business-friendly countries with high taxes that fund generous social programs. Bernie got soundly chewed out by the PM of Denmark for claiming that country is socialist. It isn't. "European-style socialism" simply does not exist.

Zambero

(8,962 posts)
28. Bring up corporate socialism
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 10:42 PM
Mar 2020

Corporate welfare, "too big to fail", farm subsidy band-aids following imposed tariffs, regressive taxation, a fixed national minimum wage to bolster stock values at the expense of consumers and workers alike, to name but a few. Then contrast those with Medicare, Social Security, Medicaid, OSHA, the Interstate Highway System, rural electrification. They may not realize it, but repeating discredited talking points and carrying water for those that have no interest in their well-being won't get them very far.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
35. You know what they will say?
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 11:31 PM
Mar 2020

That "Corporate welfare" is the reason that we all have jobs. I'm serious, because I have had this argument numerous times and they really believe that any kind of corporate welfare will eventually help the worker.

They are so fucking stupid, there is no point in arguing with them.

Happy Hoosier

(7,215 posts)
32. Actually, I usually just bring up all the services we socialize now...
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 11:24 PM
Mar 2020

Defense, police, fire, highways, schools. We provide those services because it doesn’t make sense to subject them to a market. The market cannot function if market forces are not balanced. Unbalanced market forces are why the health care system is so fucked up. And that’s why we have to fix health care.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
36. Completely agree.
Wed Mar 4, 2020, 11:42 PM
Mar 2020

But try convincing them of that. They are just greedy and don't want to have to pay for anything, yet they expect to be protected and provided for. They are idiots.

GulfCoast66

(11,949 posts)
42. You've already lost the argument by accepting a falsehood
Thu Mar 5, 2020, 01:25 AM
Mar 2020

The is no Western European government that is socialist.

The people you are arguing with are correct. Socialist governments where the government controls the means of production(business and industry) have never worked.

But Social Democracy, which uses tightly regulated capitalism to insure that those with little or no capital benefit from the wealth generated by capitalism flourish. Or at least do better than unregulated capitalism like we have here.

I always either win or shut down the argument by stating 2 things. First, ask them what is socialism. They never know.

Then tell the that only capitalism generates real wealth, but if not controlled only the people with money have any. The minute they hear someone who they know is a liberal Democrat defending any type of capitalism their mind goes blank.

0rganism

(23,921 posts)
43. plenty of failed capitalist states you could counter with
Thu Mar 5, 2020, 01:41 AM
Mar 2020

that kind of tit-for-tat pretty much misses the point though. 100-to-1 your "friends" aren't interested in any serious discussion of issues, economic systems, or even politics per se -- it's likely just tribalism and metaphysical junk-waving as promoted by hucksters like Hannity and Limbaugh. no amount of argument on your part, no matter how concise or soundbite-worthy it is, will end it. and, unfortunately, the existing counter-arguments tend to be neither.

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
44. Remind them that social security, Medicare, our schools and
Thu Mar 5, 2020, 01:51 AM
Mar 2020

the county’s infrastructure are based on socialism. We pay for all of them when we pay our taxes every year. Our taxes pay for everything we have in this country, including the military and everything else the government pays for, like the salaries and health benefits for the President and Congress and all government workers.

Sherman A1

(38,958 posts)
45. This is how I deal with Facebook political discussions
Thu Mar 5, 2020, 06:46 AM
Mar 2020

One). Never, ever respond. There’s no reasoning with anyone on Facebook, there is no winning an argument.

Two). most of the political posts on Facebook are Memes (which are just bandwidth filling junk and time wasting sucks) stating some position left, right, up, down etc. I go to the upper right corner of the post click on the ... and hide the post. If possible I hide the source of the post, be it another poster or a site of some sort. Do this enough and it cleans up the newsfeed.

Three). If the method in Two does not clean things up, snooze the poster for 30 days and they are never the wiser. It cleans up the newsfeed and life moves on.
 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
46. Good advice, Sherman.
Thu Mar 5, 2020, 10:15 AM
Mar 2020

I think I will follow it from now on. I can't stand Facebook anyway. I only went on to offer condolences to another poster and happened to see this one and it got the better of me.

Thanks!

Sherman A1

(38,958 posts)
47. My pleasure
Thu Mar 5, 2020, 11:14 AM
Mar 2020

I like Facebook for my hobbies (genealogy, photography and table top miniature war-gaming) and connecting with local museums, events and such. I find it very useful. It can be a time suck and there are the problems that you highlighted. It requires some daily maintenance to keep the "buzzards" away, but in doing so, I find it useful.

Like anything else in life, it comes with good & bad.

I do hide everything with a photo of Trump, a whole lot of Left Wing Memes posted by folks along with the fewer and fewer Right Wing Memes I see.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»I managed to get myself e...