"Welfare has done far more damage to the Black family than slavery could ever do"

[crimycarny]

That is what a co-worker of mine just said to me. I was so dumbstruck that I wasn't even sure how to respond. (Of course he is of white privilege, as am I). I finally replied "You're kidding, right? Blacks were murdered, raped, beaten, and their children wrenched from them and sold. They were PROPERTY of white men. And you say that "welfare" has done far more damage? There are so many things wrong with that statement I don't even know where to start. Your offensive comments about slavery aside, why do you only mention blacks when you speak of "welfare". 40% of welfare recepients are white 25% black, 15% Hispanic."

He doubled down with: "During the worst of slavery, the black family was totally nuclear and intact. The only thing that broke it up was the the actions of slave owners." Meaning, I guess, that the black slaves were living Leave to Beaver type lives even as slaves. If it weren't for those pesky slave owners raping, murdering, beating, forcing their kids to work, selling their kids--yeah, outside of that it was a nice intact family!

I finally just responded with "I can't have this discussion with you" and walked away.

This whole conversation started with a discussion on abortion. He was making the statement that "totally healthy women are aborting totally healthy babies in their 3rd trimester". I'm like "uh, I don't think it happening.". He argued it was and said those women should be put in jail. I asked him "ok so if you want to make sure that these totally healthy babies aren't aborted, what is your proposal to make sure they live after they are born? What are your proposals to provide them access to medical care, food, school, etc? Because it seems that those most opposed to abortion are also the most opposed to helping people in poverty, which is far more likely to cause the death of a child/baby than abortion in the 3rd trimester." That is when he went into the welfare state crap.

I just had to vent. I feel like I did a sh*tty job of arguing my point. I'm not good at that. I get too angry and emotional and end up babbling. That's why I walked away.

[Under The Radar]

1. Can't speak for everyone but I know many that Welfare saved their life.

Abandoned mothers and children, families where illness reduced or stopped income....all were temporary but it saved their lives.

[crimycarny]

4. Same with my husband's family

Dad came over from the Phillipines, joined the army and fought in Vietnam. Worked 3 jobs at times to support his family but there were times they needed help. Thankfully it was there.

[Under The Radar]

9. it makes me look bad to wish for this;

But I often hope that those who stand looking into the crowd of needy and down trodden and paint us all as undeserving, discriminating brush, suffer the harshest of their own discrimination.

[moonscape]

74. I recall Christopher Reeves talking about how

disengaged he was from the disabled, how he would visit those who were like he was but when he walked out he was back to his life, unaffected. It was such an honest commentary about the wall between those in need and those not.

[SunSeeker]

42. We would have starved without food stamps when I was a kid.

The food stamps only covered enough bread, potatoes and rice to get us through three weeks. The last week of the month were always involuntarily fasts for my poor mom. At least me and my brother got free lunches at school. My mom got nothing.

[Under The Radar]

49. I have been there

The shame of having to take groceries back at checkout because we were over our monetary limit...Dad was the only bread winner, mom took care of us 4 kids under 10 years old. A bleeding ulcer took dad out for 2 months and even went back to work sick because we would lose the house if not.
Since those days if I were in line with someone who cannot pay for all they chose, I paid their balance because it still hurts me today to witness that as it did 50 years ago. Especially if they have children.

[SunSeeker]

51. Bless you. I wish someone had done that for us once. nt

[Under The Radar]

54. Thanks but understand that I am not boasting.

That is the hard way to learn empathy, to understand the pain of others. You have to go through the struggle yourself, I guess.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

60. Props!!

[central scrutinizer]

66. My father died when I was six (1956)

And my sister was two. My mother had no workplace skills. But veteran’s benefits and social security allowed us to live, albeit frugally. She was able to remain a homemaker. That’s family values in action. Not forcing single parents to work two jobs to just eke by.

[Blue_Tires]

2. His talking point is 30+ years out of date

and has been a staple of right wing nutbars on AM radio for ages...

Of course he'd never have enough hair on his ballsack to repeat his hot take in front of black folks, so just let it go

[Sherman A1]

15. Longer than 30 years

I recall hearing this in the 1960s.

[Wellstone ruled]

27. William F Buckley

used to wail about this back in the 60's on his PBS program. And it's use has only increased as a Political Divide and Conquer technique by the Rethugs.

[elleng]

3. Sounds like you did a good job.

Thanks.

Sorry you had to endure it.

[albacore]

5. Those people have been empowered... by trump's accession to power.

They used to hear this shit from Rush and share it with their drinking buddies. Now... they are anxious to share their uninformed views with the rest of us.
The real question is... what will we ever do with them after he's gone, and they are not so empowered?
I'm not talking re-education camps...
I mean how will we ever be able to discuss things with them?
At some point, the people in this country need to be able to talk to one another, but now that we know they are idiots - with idiot ideas - how can we ever have any kind of dialog with them?
They are NOT going to have some kind of collective epiphany and say "Gosh.. I was so wrong about welfare/abortion/immigration/women/trump."

[Dan]

58. There is a book

Title is: White Fragility by Robin Diangelo... might be a good read.

My opinion is that White people need to have a conversation with other White people.

It is a problem that we all share, but it seems to me that White people need to step up.

[Tech]

6. You can't argue or reason with someone who is like that.

Walking away was the best thing to do. That got your point across quite well.

[Amaryllis]

33. Agree. NOthing you can say will change the mind of someone that far away from reality or reason.

[GulfCoast66]

7. I know exactly what I would have said. Because I have had the exact conversation.

It a common talking point on right wing web sites. A the time I too was Speechless. Now I know what I will say

Just tell him “you are defending slavery. In any civilized society or Christian belief system you are an evil man”

Then walk away. Never argue or debate with them. They aren’t interested in truth. They bring you to their level of stupid and win thru experience.

Be prepared for them to explode.

And BTW in the company I work defending slavery would result in a reprimand if they showed contrition. Termination if they defended their statements. You can believe what you want. At my very progressive company if you verbally say some things you are not wanted.

[Mr.Bill]

56. I'll add to what you say to them

that what they are saying is "profoundly un-American". That usually both pisses them off and leaves them speechless.

[GulfCoast66]

57. That's a good one. I will remember it.

[treestar]

69. This argument has been used

For centuries I believe it came up during the Irish famine. If you help people they will become dependent. Yet they have never proven that. In fact plenty of people go off welfare.

[Ohiogal]

8. This guy sounds like

He gets all his information from Fox and Rush.

You did great for being put on the spot like that.

Next time someone brings up the 3rd trimester abortion thing, tell him that something like 95% of all abortions are done before the end of the first trimester.

And ask him why the GOP won’t fund Planned Parenthood so many more abortions can be prevented with birth control.

[Mosby]

10. You can't debate people that are that far gone.

[iluvtennis]

40. +++ agree. nt

[Evolve Dammit]

45. Agree. Not worth it. It's over, nationally. I have no use for anyone who thinks like that. Done.

[Skittles]

11. it wasn't welfare in itself that was damaging

it was the original rule than barred women from receiving benefits if a man was in the house, no matter what the circumstances - this broke up a lot of families

but certainly NONE of it was as damaging as slavery, that is just racist repuke talk

[questionseverything]

17. the rules to recieve welfare are so strict that most have to cheat to survive,including having

working fathers visit rather than live with the family

that is part of why I would like to see food stamps and medical benefits made much easier to get


as in most stereo types there is the tiniest bit of truth in the first claim, so while their are problems with welfare requirements being much too strict of course nothing that compares to slavery

[struggle4progress]

12. "Our darkies was always so happy, until all them outside agitators come along"

[Evolve Dammit]

47. Thank you for the stark reminder of where we've been, and what we refuse to return to.

[leftstreet]

13. I don't like seeing this on DU

It's beyond rearview, and just make DU look...weird

[crimycarny]

20. Unfortunately not so rearview anymore

I'm not sure what you meant by this making DU look "weird" and how this is so rearview. How can we combat people like this if we don't talk about it? With Trump's election we're seeing more and more of this ugliness rear it's ugly head. I want help in combating it. Staying silent is akin to agreement, in my book.

[leftstreet]

22. Why would you try to 'combat' someone like this?

If this person is actually saying that in the year 2021, you will NEVER change his/her mind. Just roll your eyes and walk away

Putting it on a contemporary forum like DU just validates it, as if the Democratic party needs a response to such racist, ignorant, contemptuous bullshit

[Boomerproud]

24. I don't get your point at all. I hear shit like this at

my place of work all the time, though not as blatant. My white coworkers automatically think because I"m white that they can say anything and I will agree with them. The only issue they are liberal about is weed. Most of them drink themselves silly on weekends too.

[Ferrets are Cool]

32. I disagree wholeheartedly with your post.

It's the PERFECT place to put his comments. I'm very glad he did and would ask him to do so anytime he needs to get something off his chest. Or hers.

[leftstreet]

35. okay n/t

[paleotn]

59. Same as it ever was....

Absolutely nothing rear view about it. These racist, privileged assholes still exist...still spew the same stale shit...and they vote in large numbers. Spend some time in the south...or a northern exburb. It's still the leading meme among the white, privileged set.

My usual response is.....welfare is not a lifestyle. Google Clinton and welfare reform. It's only a few simple clicks of the keyboard. And while you're at it, google Jim Crow, lynching, red lining and institutional racism. As for WIC, compare the average allotment to your weekly grocery bill and tell me how you could feed a family of growing children on such a pittance. Take the federal minimum wage X 40 hours per week and tell me how that can support even a spartan lifestyle even with subsidized housing. Work more? And just when will they have the time to actually raise their children? That usually shuts them the fuck up. They're especially discombobulated with that coming from an older, white southerner like me. They initially think I'm one of them. A member of the club. But I'm not.

[leftstreet]

63. They could Google all that themselves

They don't want to stop spewing their shit, and no amount of information will change them

[Ponietz]

14. The racists murdered truth to further their ideology

I don't waste my time. Sometimes I say "fuck you".

[Karadeniz]

16. You handled it. Gave him some facts. He couldn't handle them at that time, so he dug in.

No point talking to a brick wall, so you left. There's a slim chance your points might percolate through his brain and rattle around, but who knows? It might take years and several more encounters for the rattling to stop long enough for him to examine new ideas...one hopes!

Anyone who defends slavery has little empathy or compassion, soul qualities, so his Mind might be a bit handicapped.

[Paladin]

18. Neo-confederate bullshit propaganda.

I know what I'm talking about, I grew up with it.

Make your walk-away from that shitheel a permanent one. Life is too short to give such sub-humans any of your time.

[Paladin]

67. "The Peculiar Institution" by Kenneth Stampp (1956)

Reading this book as a college freshman washed away decades of idiotic racist wishful thinking about slavery, much of it conveyed to me by beloved family members. Fifty years since I read Stampp's classic work, and I still cannot recommend it highly enough for sharpening your rebuttals to morons who, to this very day, continue to spew about slavery being some sort of good deal for black people.

[cwydro]

19. You must have a very slow workplace to be having these sort of in depth discussions.

Are there no AA folks in your workplace that you two (admittedly white privileged) folks can have this sort of discussion without anyone complaining? Wtf?

[crimycarny]

21. Didn't start out as in-depth

This conversation didn't start out as "in-depth" The guy made an ignorant comment about abortion to me and I felt it needed a response. Then as he got more and more offensive I got pulled in deeper. I didn't feel I could simply remain silent as that would mean I agreed with the guy (in his eyes).

As for being a slow workplace, this conversation happened when we were walking to our cars after work. No one was around to overhear. Like I said, I was completely taken off guard.

[cwydro]

23. In all my working years, after work conversations never involved abortion.

How lucky I’ve been.

[crimycarny]

25. Yep, lucky you

Hit and run conversations happen all the time about all sorts of subjects in all sorts of places. How very lucky you've been to never have an icky drop fall on you.

[cwydro]

26. Yes indeed.

[paleotn]

62. You bet there is....

I've had these conversations before. And no, there aren't any AA folks to set the record straight. That's much of the problem. Many in the professional classes live in white only bubbles.

[Nature Man]

71. not everyone works at McDonalds

[dlk]

28. It's an ugly, racist lie

People who say such things are merely proclaiming their racism, poorly disguised as being rational. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[Joinfortmill]

29. I feel your pain. Ugh.

[warmfeet]

30. Thank you.

[Ferrets are Cool]

31. My response: Number One, you're an idiot and I never argue with idiots.

Number two, there are more Caucasians on welfare than AA's. Then, I would have walked off.

Maybe I would have changed the order, THEN walked off.

[Lithos]

46. So true

The intent of this argument is to frame Welfare in terms of racism...

[Wounded Bear]

34. That's pure indoctrinated Limbaugh Foxbot there...

[llmart]

37. By the way...

is Limpballs dead yet?

Asking for a friend.

[Evolve Dammit]

50. Agree.

[JGug1]

36. Teaching A Pig How To Sing

Nahhh, short of calling him an ignorant, racist son of a bitch, I don't think you could have done any better. You can't teach a pig how to sing. Oh, tell him. I said so, please.

[dflprincess]

38. That's a favorite line of conservatives

They think by using it they can cut public assistance and not look awful because they're just doing the "poor folks" a favor.

Right in line with having to destroy the village to save it.

[Traildogbob]

39. Do not argue

I just wear my dog training thunder whistle, very loud, and blow the hell out of it in their face and walk away. they really whistle blowers. Love pissing em off.

[IronLionZion]

41. If it's such a good life, he should try it

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

43. As a white person, whose grandparents came here

a generation after slavery ended, I'm outraged.

The black family was totally intact? No, it wasn't.

A few years ago I finally got around to reading Uncle Tom's Cabin, and it was eye-opening on many levels. The only one I'll mention here is (and I may have some of the specifics wrong, for which I apologize)one of the white women talked about how slave women had no attachment to their babies, and at the same time complained bitterly that her own personal servant was mourning a baby that had been taken away from her. Harriet Beecher Stowe correctly captures cluelessness and cognitive dissonance.

For me, the most powerful aspect of that book was that before it was written a decade or so before the end of slavery, it simply did not in any way anticipate that slavery would really come to an end. Unlike every other pre end of slavery novel written since 1965.

[Demonaut]

44. it's a mobius loop of outrage

the single mindedness is astonishing

[Lithos]

48. First - this is an impression not based in reality

Welfare is not minority-based. The language used here is extremely racist and bigoted. Point that out. Welfare is actually more used by whites than not.

Welfare is also not a bad thing. Army soldiers w/ family routinely use welfare. Corporations such as Walmart routinely advocate the use of welfare (as a form of corporate socialism - different topic) to help their associates.

Far more monies go to corporate welfare than to individual welfare

welfare is not a pejorative - it just means doing the right thing to fellow human beings. The evil is done by those who abuse this system and the primary offender are corporations.

[Hoyt]

52. White wing ideology equates welfare with keeping people in slavery. They are such sickos.

I like to remind these fools that Thomas Jefferson talked about freedom and liberty, then went home to rape and beat his slaves.

[sinkingfeeling]

53. You did good. I guess your coworker never read nor saw

the TV series "Roots". I might buy him a copy.

[SCantiGOP]

55. One question for your colleague:

Would he prefer to see families die rather than accept welfare?

[paleotn]

61. Those people have no idea how welfare, WIC, Medicaid or subsidized housing actually works....

and honestly, they don't care. They've never seen what the world outside the industrialized west looks like, where even a minimal social safety net simply doesn't exist. They think they "earned" everything they have, which is utter hogwash. Hell, a decent income is easy when your born somewhere between 1st, 2nd and 3rd base like most of us in my socio-economic class, with generations of asset accumulation under our belts or at least the benefit of the doubt simply based on our race and family social standing. I can certainly spin some yarns of how I've benefited from white privilege. But one thing from my upbringing that benefited me more than anything else was mom teaching me about those less fortunate than ourselves and ..."but for the grace of God go you." Life is ephemeral and I could end up just like Job, so I needed to be mindful and caring for those less privileged. Tomorrow that could easily be me. I don't follow mom's religion anymore, but some teachings from the Gospels, along with an overarching sense of fairness stuck to this day.

[Demovictory9]

64. ugh. i hate your co-worker

[Hekate]

65. Isn't it telling that he lies about black people and all women in the same breath: neither can be...

Neither can be trusted with personal bodily autonomy. Both need the stern hand of a strong white male to guide their erring footsteps and be told right from wrong.

Think about how comprehensive that is. I hope our friend Skittles won't mind if I steal a phrase: Someone needs an ass-kicking.

You did fine in the moment, by the way.

[malaise]

68. Slavery denied us the notion of family

What undiluted fuckery

[Nature Man]

70. The slaveowner viewed his slaves like livestock

the idea of "family" was not even a consideration where it concerned white folks treatment of slaves.

To the slaver mind, it would be as ridiculous as thinking in terms of cows or horses having families.

The key to slavery was the utter debasement and deprivation of any recognition of a slave's humanity.

They weren't considered human.

[malaise]

72. Precisely

[RealityChik]

73. Sadly, this belief is very common among Fox viewers...

Thank you for standing up to defend the truth. My husband found that when these people are coworkers and you have to work with them every day, remaining calm (hard for most of us to do) and being respectful (even harder to do) will result in breakthrough eventually. Either that, or the co-worker avoids the subject because he/she feels unable to match the intelligence of what he considers to be the opposing view.

My husband is a master of diplomacy. Very patient. Is never after an argument win because it's not going to happen. He considers getting the person to stop and consider an alternative view as a win.

I, on the other hand, get too emotional and end up saying words I wish I could put back in my mouth and never say. Kudos to ANYONE with the gift of patient diplomacy!!!!