General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI BEG DU'ers PLEASE READ THIS FINANCIAL ARTICLE!
The all caps is intentional. The piece is eye-opening and full of data and facts.
https://unherd.com/2020/03/covid-19-has-exposed-our-financial-fragility/
Here is just a snippet of the mountain of financial facts:
Get informed. Get angry. Dont be the mark.
dalton99a
(81,426 posts)Brainfodder
(6,423 posts)Let me get this straight, we can join forces to make $, but if this goes to shit, something that only exists on paper will take the fall?
superpatriotman
(6,247 posts)Much, much more
liberalla
(9,234 posts)can't read right now....thanks!
ProfessorGAC
(64,955 posts)Article is long! But, super interesting.
marble falls
(57,055 posts)ProfessorGAC
(64,955 posts)Long, but comprehensive. Right here on DU, I've been questioning the continued rise of the markets, and whether economic underpinnings justified it. Particularly over the past week when the Dow and S&P collapsed.
This article reinforced my skepticism.
superpatriotman
(6,247 posts)But I think Dow 13000 is probably reasonable
ProfessorGAC
(64,955 posts)13k FEELS low, but that's not a prediction.
But, get this. I met with some people in Canadian gas & oil about 2 years ago. When I was with them they were touting the fact that the company paid 7% dividends. At that time, the stock price was between $9.50 & $10.
It closed Friday at 5.5¢. Yep! A 99.44% decline in value! They were doing shale oil, tertiary oil recovery, and natural gas.
The investment is worth $16 for every $10,000 invested. Wow!
AlexSFCA
(6,137 posts)so 13k sounds about right. But the low price of oil is a blessing for airlines and may be the only thing that will save them from bancrupcy.
3Hotdogs
(12,358 posts)Everything's closed.
AlexSFCA
(6,137 posts)we may have vaccine by then. The recovery will probably occur next summer. Dow may go down to 13k but I think the actual bottom is around 20k cause stocks are largely based on future potential earnings. It may go back to 30k within couple of years.
Dustlawyer
(10,494 posts)Amishman
(5,554 posts)I do software projects for banks and insurance, and my degree is in economics.
This shutdown is going to do economic damage not seen since 1929. It will be worse than 2008 as that was a financial crisis, top down recession so to speak. This will be bottom up, crushing small businesses and the working class first.
Goldman is projecting a 26% GDP contraction in Q2. That is beyond terrifying
zackymilly
(2,375 posts)I kinda laughed it off, but not anymore.
Amishman
(5,554 posts)I do see it being every bit as bad as the 'great recession' of 10 years ago, probably worse.
This is assuming we stay shut down for at least 6 more weeks.
pbmus
(12,422 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)"For once the taboo of printing money to pay citizens is broken, we can never go back. Governments will spend money with few constraints, aided by central banks. Its a strategy that has not worked well in emerging markets, and it did not work well in the 1970s which has conveniently been forgotten.
"Undoubtedly, the government must compensate citizens from mandatory curfews and quarantines. The short-term impacts of the lockdowns must be mitigated, but temporary policies must not become permanent political expedients.
"Thats why the danger is not today or even a year from now, its five to ten years away, when the crisis has past, along with the reason for UBI and monetary easing. What politician will be disciplined enough to stop spending? What central banker will raise rates when it is unpopular to do so?
"It looks like theyre about to learn the hard way."
superpatriotman
(6,247 posts)Does not negate the myriad of facts and data in the article.
Further, he does not argue against giving money to citizens for a temporary fix, only as permanent policy. I think many Democrats would agree.
SayItLoud
(1,702 posts)industries.....BUT REMEMBER; It's OUR money that provides the bailouts. Not some political party or tRUMP!
I sure hope the media keeps reminding everyone of this fact.
yaesu
(8,020 posts)making the stock price go up is like getting a raise, they could care less about manufacturing or jobs.
Progressive Jones
(6,011 posts)jalan48
(13,852 posts)PatrickforO
(14,566 posts)you are the patsy. - Warren Buffet.
Good quote from the article.
My hope is we come through this with an expanded sense of fiduciary responsibility for corporate officers. Shareholder earnings are important, but so are worker earnings, pensions and benefits. So is the community, or communities, where the corporation does business. So are the consumers that buy the good or service produced by the corporation. And finally, so is the environment.
If we can restructure our capitalism to allow for this expanded stakeholder approach and then enforce that with strong, sensible regulation, we will have a much better society.
Governor Cuomo had some good ideas about how to eliminate the price gouging inherent in disaster capitalism, which is a brutal doctrine developed by the Chicago School and so-called 'neoliberals.' Naomi Klein has written extensively about it, so I won't belabor it here. But for corporations to gouge states trying to buy masks during a pandemic? This exposes the amoral nature of today's corporate shareholder driven mentality. As do the stock buybacks.
Many other reforms must happen too, led by a massive reform of the tax codes, and a general expansion and beefing up of safety net programs.
Ah, but we all know this. The trick is how do we convince our legislators to make it happen in the face of the massive corporate corruption that presently exists in DC?
Ligyron
(7,622 posts)Maybe...
Then again, after decades where we were getting it at least somewhat under control, starting I suppose with FDR and right up to the passing of Medicare legislation, the war on poverty and the spirit of The Great Society and Voting Rights Act ... things started going downhill again for most Americans. I'm no historian or great thinker but even I could see what was happening
Those programs and the legislation needed to establish them was opposed by almost all Republicans all the time as a matter of Faith and when Ronald Ray Gun somehow got himself elected (Iran, hostages?) that damn Powell memo became their blueprint leading to this mess we now find ourselves in. Their propaganda machine of Fox and more recently One America and Sinclair Broadcasting plus control of AM radio has brainwashed a significant number of our countrymen to vote directly against their own best interests.
One need not be any genius to know what needs doing to, at a minimum, improve things and maybe this crisis will open their eyes and convince enough citizens that: GOP breaks economy, Dems fix it only to have it looted and destroyed yet again once they get back in power as now.
Maybe...
brush
(53,758 posts)we have to figure out how to regulate them effectively so they contribute to a robust safety net for all and not just be about maximizing profita fair profit, yes, as we can't do away with them without doing away with the livelihood of millions of workers.
This crisis is our chance to re-organize society. We of course have to win the WH and Senate to overcome repug obstruction.
That means all Dems, including Sanders supporters, have to rally behind Joe Biden.
whathehell
(29,050 posts)lastlib
(23,191 posts)This underscores what I have been thinking for years, what I have called the superhighway to serfdom--the mirror image of Hayek's musing. Hayek was afraid of big government and state planning. I am afraid of big corporate power unchecked and overpowering individuals, with government aiding and abetting, under the guise of "free market" capitalism. It's the fast track to a form of fascism/serfdom. And it scares the hell out of me.
superpatriotman
(6,247 posts)As a Keynesian, I cotton to an economy based on the DEMAND SIDE - get money into the hands of the working class while using monetary and political policies to keep inflation and corporations in check.
Its a delicate act, but our country needs to do it right or else we could quickly devolve into a new dark age.
lastlib
(23,191 posts)They like the fascist model better.
superpatriotman
(6,247 posts)It seems like the worker is in a power position right now. Maybe time to talk unionization?
LittleGirl
(8,282 posts)I cant tell you how many times Ive gotten sick after flying their cramped cabins.
keithbvadu2
(36,724 posts)Privatize profits - socialize losses.
hangaleft
(649 posts)AllaN01Bear
(18,101 posts)what happened to all those subsides that we pay for these things . hmm let them go broke .
SWBTATTReg
(22,093 posts)Victor_c3
(3,557 posts)It put to words many thoughts Ive had over the last decade.
Its scary to think that an economic downturn only half as bad as 2008 would potentially put 40% of the larger corporations into bankruptcy.
A major correction has be coming for years - my grandfather was talking about that in the 1990s.
This debt/bailout cycle has gone on for too long. A major change in the way our economy works needs to happen. This might just be the beginning of a UBI. Well see.
calimary
(81,179 posts)Gee. How else could that money be used for something other than greed?
coti
(4,612 posts)to work.
Now the money is going POOF and they're screwed.
calimary
(81,179 posts)YOU GOT YOURS ALREADY. USE THAT. Make do like the rest of us have to. After all, YOU can afford it.
You were first in line for the last giveaway. Now, it's SOMEBODY ELSE'S turn.
I am starting to LOVE LOVE LOVE this new meme: "Bubble up." It's the counterpunch to "trickle down."
Whoever thought that up deserves a raise.
hangaleft
(649 posts)I thought they were the job creators.
Pepsidog
(6,254 posts)oldsoftie
(12,516 posts)We cannot allow on of the biggest industries to go under. It sux what they did LAST time; I blame Congress as much as them. There should have been restrictions
At the Friday press conference, a reporter asked about that and Trump said "we cannot allow any stock buybacks. Of course HE cannot be trusted, but we can pressure Congress to ake sure there are restrictions. And these couldbe done as loans too, like GM
Traildogbob
(8,703 posts)A beautiful sky in the Mountains yesterday in North Carolina. Long time since we had blue skies. But, like I have never seen before, the jet trails were thick, covering about 35 percent of the blue skies. I have a broad, wide view from my home and at anytime there were over 50 trails at a time. A lot from North To South. Airlines seem to be extremely active and making cash. Maybe, New Yorkers fleeing to south. Bad news, their playground Florida is a real Petri dish of stupid with GOP control. They have a better chance to survive under the active, aggressive Governor. Florida leaders are as dumb and uncaring as their dear leader trump.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)It should be a condition of any bailout. If they used their corporate tax windfall to buy back stock they should have to sell off stock to raise capital to pay their work force now, dollar for dollar, to match any bailout funds they apply for. That should be one of the prerequisites for any federal help now. Don't want to sell off stock you bought back with your tax cut in order to keep your employees afloat? Fine, then don't ask our government for more money now.
lastlib
(23,191 posts)Dumping stocks on that scale would send the investment markets into a FAR bigger tailspin than they're in now. And that would really fuel the fear, and cost a LOT of people truckloads of $$ in savings.
Tom Rinaldo
(22,912 posts)If those companies sell off stock in the next few weeks they will probably do better even with the immediate price drop. Then they would get bailout funds. More government leaders are going to start getting Covid-19, and they tend to be older. When deaths start happening there it will really spook both people and the markets. With estimates that half the population may eventually get Covid-19, even assuming that effective treatments start to come online, I can't help but imagine further dramatic sell offs. By forcing these corporations to sell off stocks now that they bought bought back, to keep employees on the payroll (in order to qualify for bailouts), that will ultimately help the economy AND the stock market more than shying away from feeding any short term sell off. Keeping a stable work force intact is crucial to our economy some day bouncing back
Look where we are now with just a small fraction of one percent of our population diagnosed with this disease. Do you really think the markets will stabilize at this level with what we are about to be hit by, even if we are fortunate and it is nowhere near the worst case scenario?
TeamPooka
(24,216 posts)MasonDreams
(756 posts)Troop movements and emergency supplies ONLY. Everyone is two steps behind
Progressive Jones
(6,011 posts)of the entire system needs to happen.
The old (current ) way needs to be fundamentally reconfigured.
SunSeeker
(51,545 posts)bucolic_frolic
(43,115 posts)I was not aware the eTrade had sold its counter-trading business, though I was aware, thanks to the few lectures made public by Anton Kriel, that brokerages take the counter-trade to everything you do. The only way to beat them is to do the same thing yourself - write call options and pocket the volatility as it presents.
But I would argue there is no real trading going on anyway. The markets move in one direction most days and remain around the mid-morning level for the rest of the day. Hedge funds, fed capital and borrowing from the Fed, control the outcome. Their intent is seen in futures and pre-market trading volume. Retail investors stand little chance.
Debt took off with Greenspan. He created the Dot Com, Housing bubbles, and Bernanke invented Helicopter money in the form of QE-1-2-3. Yellen was 3.2, and Powell, urged by Trump, is QE-4-5-6.
In actuality though, the problems of the 1920s and the present and in-between, are the same. Too much debt. It is generally known that the Great Depression could have been avoided if the newly-1913 created Fed had loosened money instead of tightening. Now they loosen for every sniffle.
In the 1970s, Milton Friedman told us everything was about the supply of money, and Supply Sider Arthur Laffer, inventor of the Laffer Curve, derided as 'a wishbone in form as well as function' told us we had too much money chasing too few goods as the cause of inflation. Seems we didn't learn our lesson.
So - does the Fed print money and rescue the debt-laden balance sheets of corporate America, or do they resurrect the US dollar and maintain its purchasing power? The first choice destroys the currency, the second destroys the economy.
The only third choice is sleight-of-hand. Create a new fiat type currency, a crypto-dollar hybrid that is electronic only. Make cash illegal.
Hello? anyone still awake? Interested in the flaws in my thinking here.
MMT is nonsense, they are destroying the currency. You can't produce nothing and keep printing money forever. This is like a giant game of Monopoly.
superpatriotman
(6,247 posts)The Green New Deal, for instance
Except this time get money into the hands of the working class and let it trickle up for a change.
bubbazero
(296 posts)1. Get rid of (carefully) the stock futures market.. A share of stock , tho an asset, should not be treated the same as a commodity. This will dramatically lessen debt load over time as stock investors are no longer able to lay off risk to someone else, and financiers will take notice. Short and medium term volatility, along with liquidity issues followed when stock futures market was first created......2. Dramatically reduce products created in selling debt...such as those commonly blamed for some of the financial crises of 2007-2008. Not that bundling debt, and using things such as shares of varying risk profile is bad-(theoretically), but multiples of risk derived items only, stacked one on top of another only leads to over speculation and volatility. Risk needs to have a reward, but must also have a cost factor or investors are not afraid to leverage repeatedly that which will not work in the long run (10% risk of total failure/loss cannot be covered with a product costing only 2%--especially when company selling 2% product can't cover losses/can't perform and society must bail them out) Actual risk must be weighed against actual reward--this requires first and foremost CLEAR ACCURATE AND APPLICABLE information, not hidden in layers of financial products. Your wise thoughts would be greatly appreciated
bucolic_frolic
(43,115 posts)lol My wise thoughts! A DUer who flatters with panache.
At root it's all a problem of financial engineering and deregulation. The physics and finance PhD.'s keep creating new theories to make a ton of money, then they lobby regulators who know their job is to get government out of the way of investment banks and Wall Street. Creating counter-party instruments to risk has a long history, from the limited liability of Hudson Bay Company to Lloyd's of London insurance. Pushing off risk on others emboldens the explorer. Options, hedges, complex debt swaps. I see what you're saying about eliminating futures, but how do you do that when other instruments are part of the functioning system? Fed props to save the market with every crisis reduced short term volatility, but we learn now it was still there. For all their professed commitment to the free market, they never let anything unwind. Instead, they had to fit it to growth in the short term, and political considerations. Plunge Protection Team and all that. The Fed mandate is currency stability and employment, but they took it to mean growth at any cost.
There is the financial economy, and the real economy. All these financial instruments. I've posted on DU recently how QE Helicopter Money created overcapacity. That is the basic problem. Perhaps the financial engineers distracted economists. Easy money is still just easy money. It creates a boom that goes bust at some point. We're not efficient as an economy. There are empty strip malls everywhere, in every town and city, at the same time they build new strip malls as fast as they can. Cars are a temporary expenditure that costs 25% as much as a house. And at 100,000 miles the lease ends so you pass the risk to someone else. Anyone who thinks there isn't inflation hasn't encountered the real (non-financed) cost of the 3 big ticket items - house, car, college. And when you throw money at them in an era of easy money, prices go up. To ordinary consumers these are not financial engineering, but they are to those raking in the cash and do have effects in the real economy. People are not good with actual eyes-open financial information. They just want the goods, and purveyors just want the business.
We're about to find out if all this will break. Diversification mean 60% stocks, 30% bonds, 10% cash or debt. ETFs became the standard of course. But except for specialty segments, they all own the same stocks more or less. Computer models outperform active managers. You just pile on the FAANGs and add alpha if you can find it. These investments are vulnerable to systemic risk, herd mentality. In a crash ETF's are liquidated, bonds are liquidated, and they are all junk or very nearly so. So no one will want to own them. There are debt ETF's - covered call, global, junk, emerging, tech, healthcare, mid-large-small cap, foreign currency. Not sure if one can hang out in SPY dividends and suffer appreciably less. The risks in the corona meltdown are unable to be measured.
superpatriotman
(6,247 posts)I think (and somewhat agree) the poster was arguing for a lessening of the amount of games in said casino to maintain a fairer, more orderly system?
Wednesdays
(17,331 posts)Let's party like it's 1929!
Celerity
(43,248 posts)Delphinus
(11,829 posts)Chris Martenson from Peak Prosperity talk about the stock buybacks and was truly shocked!
BeckyDem
(8,361 posts)Paka
(2,760 posts)Sadly a lot of the sites, live TYT and Hill Rising are considered "verboten" by many on DU, and therefore ignored.
BigmanPigman
(51,582 posts)about the airline industry wanting more money (to buy back stocks again?). Fuck the airlines!
burrowowl
(17,636 posts)Joinfortmill
(14,408 posts)It's an awesome way to travel.
mathematic
(1,434 posts)It's written in a huckster's style, with plenty of seemingly convincing, yet entirely decontextualized facts.
I mean, look at this nonsense paragraph that is meant to inflame passions, play into the readers existing biases, and explain nothing:
Monetary policy was one of the mechanisms employed in response to the last crisis, in the hope its effects would trickle down to the unwashed masses. Central banks bought vast amounts of treasuries and mortgage bonds to tighten financial spreads for banks and borrowers, but none of it went directly to households
A) This is a mischaracterization of monetary policy. The Fed's mission is regulate the financial system to achieve two goals 1, keep unemployment low and 2, keep inflation low. Both goals greatly benefit "the unwashed masses" (note the use of the inflammatory phrase, for no good reason). The Fed has done a good job meeting it's goals and it's gotten better over the years. The man in charge of the federal reserve during the Great Recession was a scholar on the Great Depression. The Fed's actions absolutely lessened the severity of the '08 crisis.
B) The Fed's actions generate profits that are transferred to the Treasury Department. The author says households weren't "directly" benefited by the fed's actions because they were very clearly indirectly benefited by the fed's actions by these profits and by having a functioning banking system and acknowledging this would greatly undermine the rant. The point of the rant seems to be "wake up sheeple!!1!", which is oh-so-common among these breathless anti-central banking screeds.
superpatriotman
(6,247 posts)Enforcing the authors position and refuting yours.
Xolodno
(6,390 posts)...and know the article is BS.
The Fed has gone from a no touch policy to an active policy.....I blame trickle down crap for that. But they have been very good at being proactive as of late. With that said, there is only so much they can do...its now fiscal policy....Congress to do the rest.
I've moved money into my trading accounts and once things stabilize, plan to pick up some bargains. If that's goes in the toilet and cash is worthless, we have bigger problems...and has me wishing I bought more jewelry for my wife.
Trueblue Texan
(2,424 posts)...and one would be justified in calling me naive, but it seems to me the only bonafide measure of prosperity is the ability to produce something of value and that comes from people like you and me. The money I've got in the bank should represent the value I've produced. To my way of thinking, the real wealth of a nation lies in the productivity potential of its people. The way we've been viewing it is a result of a scam. Regardless what the stock market does or the debt of corporations, my ability to produce value remains unchanged unless something about me changes, like my health, motivation, or creativity. WE are the assets. OUR skills, OUR ideas, OUR innovations, OUR energy. WE are the wealth. I know. I admit I don't understand economic theory. But isn't this right?
superpatriotman
(6,247 posts)But most do not.
Workers and employees are commodities used by corporations to create value for their shareholders.