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SDANation

(419 posts)
Sun Mar 22, 2020, 11:28 PM Mar 2020

Is our fight against Corona Virus worse than the disease itself

We routinely differentiate between two kinds of military action: the inevitable carnage and collateral damage of diffuse hostilities, and the precision of a “surgical strike,” methodically targeted to the sources of our particular peril. The latter, when executed well, minimizes resources and unintended consequences alike.

As we battle the coronavirus pandemic, and heads of state declare that we are “at war” with this contagion, the same dichotomy applies. This can be open war, with all the fallout that portends, or it could be something more surgical. The United States and much of the world so far have gone in for the former. I write now with a sense of urgency to make sure we consider the surgical approach, while there is still time.

Outbreaks tend to be isolated when pathogens move through water or food, and of greater scope when they travel by widespread vectors like fleas, mosquitoes or the air itself. Like the coronavirus pandemic, the infamous flu pandemic of 1918 was caused by viral particles transmitted by coughing and sneezing. Pandemics occur when an entire population is vulnerable — that is, not immune — to a given pathogen capable of efficiently spreading itself.

Immunity occurs when our immune system has developed antibodies against a germ, either naturally or as a result of a vaccine, and is fully prepared should exposure recur. The immune system response is so robust that the invading germ is eradicated before symptomatic disease can develop.Importantly, that robust immune response also prevents transmission. If a germ can’t secure its hold on your body, your body no longer serves as a vector to send it forward to the next potential host. This is true even if that next person is not yet immune. When enough of us represent such “dead ends” for viral transmission, spread through the population is blunted, and eventually terminated. This is called herd immunity.


[link:https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/20/opinion/coronavirus-pandemic-social-distancing.html#click=https://t.co/0xebkqm2JV]

73 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Is our fight against Corona Virus worse than the disease itself (Original Post) SDANation Mar 2020 OP
In general... jberryhill Mar 2020 #1
Most people won't read beyond the initial title and first paragraph SDANation Mar 2020 #7
Not sure why that's a reason for posting copyrighted content, but whatever jberryhill Mar 2020 #9
Okay I'll shorten it. Thanks. SDANation Mar 2020 #14
If it is now, it soon won't be. yonder Mar 2020 #2
Three paragraphs and a link, is how we post articles on this website. Iggo Mar 2020 #3
The only exception I ever make Aquaria Mar 2020 #11
Possibly, here's why TheFarseer Mar 2020 #4
The shelter in place is not to prevent Phoenix61 Mar 2020 #8
True SDANation Mar 2020 #12
This is an ignorant argument jcgoldie Mar 2020 #35
A difference of opinion? SDANation Mar 2020 #40
Ignorance is not a "difference of opinion" jcgoldie Mar 2020 #42
That's not ignorance SDANation Mar 2020 #48
one month ago you wrote, "Please stop the Covid-19 hysteria" LanternWaste Mar 2020 #71
everyone is still going to get it jcgoldie Mar 2020 #25
Depending on incidence in a region, the closures, isolation, etc... pat_k Mar 2020 #56
You're right. nt babylonsister Mar 2020 #39
Too soon to say Demonaut Mar 2020 #5
Dr. Katz is president of True Health Initiative elleng Mar 2020 #6
We can already predict high-density areas will have higher levels of transmission. pat_k Mar 2020 #61
A Military Concept You Leave Off, Sir, Is The Holding Action The Magistrate Mar 2020 #10
A safe and effective vaccine will take a year SDANation Mar 2020 #13
Understood, Sir The Magistrate Mar 2020 #15
Not to mention that it could buy time to get our act together on producing plasma from recovered ... pat_k Mar 2020 #58
One New Wrinkle In Vaccines, Sir The Magistrate Mar 2020 #16
Yeah SDANation Mar 2020 #18
Desperate Situations Evoke Desperate Measures, Sir The Magistrate Mar 2020 #20
See post 58 pat_k Mar 2020 #59
It also allows time for testing therapeutic options jberryhill Mar 2020 #46
Inch by inch they are getting closer... magicarpet Mar 2020 #51
Welcome back! tenderfoot Mar 2020 #44
A 60 yr old woman was the first to die in my county, yesterday Not use to seeing 60 yr old women LizBeth Mar 2020 #17
Up to 650,000 people die worldwide from the flu SDANation Mar 2020 #19
THis isn't the goddamn flu jcgoldie Mar 2020 #21
You're right. SDANation Mar 2020 #24
Its killing people at 20 to 40 times the rate of the flu jcgoldie Mar 2020 #27
Cool immediately into sophomorish retorts SDANation Mar 2020 #34
This message was self-deleted by its author jcgoldie Mar 2020 #37
And On The Order Of a Billion Or So Yearly Get It, Sir The Magistrate Mar 2020 #22
Not at all. SDANation Mar 2020 #30
Just Checking, Sir The Magistrate Mar 2020 #38
At least they get a chance at the hospital. In this situation, many will get no chance. n/t blitzen Mar 2020 #26
Neither of us would get care CountAllVotes Mar 2020 #52
This is far, far worse than the flu. Turin_C3PO Mar 2020 #28
Italy SDANation Mar 2020 #36
They had the 2nd oldest population last year, and we had the flu last year. Not the same. LizBeth Mar 2020 #47
And they've been isolating for a good month now. John Fante Mar 2020 #43
In the 2017 flu season SDANation Mar 2020 #23
Read this and maybe you will reconsider your view ("Holy Shit, this is not the flu!") blitzen Mar 2020 #32
Yeah and if we don't get our shit together soon, Turin_C3PO Mar 2020 #33
you first... and the writer of the article, run out an infect yourselves. lapfog_1 Mar 2020 #41
Give me one day in 2017 that had 763 people die in one day in one area in one country. LizBeth Mar 2020 #49
He states in the article... SidDithers Mar 2020 #29
It's a case fatality ratio ... mortality rate is calculated differently ... mr_lebowski Mar 2020 #45
No. This is a fucking stupid question. enki23 Mar 2020 #31
One might also ask "are we better off without this article or with it?" (*) KY_EnviroGuy Mar 2020 #50
He seems to have some notion... pat_k Mar 2020 #55
Thanks for explaining that. It's an extremely risky proposition. KY_EnviroGuy Mar 2020 #60
I thought it smacked off... pat_k Mar 2020 #65
We wish you the best of luck against this invisible foe. KY_EnviroGuy Mar 2020 #66
Alright, I admit it...The NY Times is indeed the Failing NY Times. No mention of... blitzen Mar 2020 #53
No practical way isolate the vulnerable while allowing virus free reign among the "low risk." pat_k Mar 2020 #54
Sounds like internment camps to me. Crunchy Frog Mar 2020 #69
This message was self-deleted by its author diva77 Mar 2020 #57
So 'surgical action' would mean age group losses to those over what? 80? 70? 60? are acceptable? Baclava Mar 2020 #62
That's what the author of the op-ed seems to suggest, even as he claims LisaL Mar 2020 #67
I am ignoring disinformation Generic Other Mar 2020 #63
I thought this was about EVERYONE getting sick at a rate that will overwhelm our KewlKat Mar 2020 #64
Trumpian talking points. n/t Crunchy Frog Mar 2020 #68
Yep Meowmee Mar 2020 #70
Now that's scary. Crunchy Frog Mar 2020 #72
Yes🙀 nt Meowmee Mar 2020 #73
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
9. Not sure why that's a reason for posting copyrighted content, but whatever
Sun Mar 22, 2020, 11:41 PM
Mar 2020

One of the site rules is:

Legal/Administrative
Respect copyrights
Excerpts from copyrighted sources must be no more than four paragraphs and include a link to the source. See our DMCA Copyright Policy for more information.

——-

 

Aquaria

(1,076 posts)
11. The only exception I ever make
Sun Mar 22, 2020, 11:43 PM
Mar 2020

Is for the articles that are 20 short sentences as paragraphs, when the content would otherwise be three paragraphs.

Journalists seem to have forgotten how to construct a proper paragraph, but that's what happens when you fire the copy editors.

TheFarseer

(9,321 posts)
4. Possibly, here's why
Sun Mar 22, 2020, 11:36 PM
Mar 2020

Everything we are trying to do with shutdowns, quarantines can be undone by someone going to the grocery store or what have you and not being careful, not being sanitary, coughing all over and touching everything. It only takes a few people to fuck up everything. Then this just circulates slowly and most people still gets it, it just takes forever. Or maybe I’m still pissed off about no sports and no one should listen to me! I’m not even sure myself!

Phoenix61

(17,000 posts)
8. The shelter in place is not to prevent
Sun Mar 22, 2020, 11:39 PM
Mar 2020

people from eventually getting covid. It’s to slow the numbers down so medical/hospital care will be available for those who need it.

SDANation

(419 posts)
12. True
Sun Mar 22, 2020, 11:44 PM
Mar 2020

But like in the article could be doing more harm than good. Exposing vulnerable populations in the home

jcgoldie

(11,631 posts)
35. This is an ignorant argument
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 12:31 AM
Mar 2020

People staying apart does not do more harm than good when theres a disease rampant thats magnitudes more contagious than the flu. Why are you posting this fucking bullshit here?

SDANation

(419 posts)
48. That's not ignorance
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 12:43 AM
Mar 2020

It’s shared by many epidemiologists and MD’s who have spent their entire careers studying virology and vaccine science, including Dr Paul Offit. A man who has spent decades developing vaccines and research the spread of disease.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
71. one month ago you wrote, "Please stop the Covid-19 hysteria"
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 10:43 AM
Mar 2020

And now this...

Quite a narrative you draw.

jcgoldie

(11,631 posts)
25. everyone is still going to get it
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 12:24 AM
Mar 2020

The point of social distancing is that everyone doesn't get it immediately and overwhelm the heath care system and resources we have.

pat_k

(9,313 posts)
56. Depending on incidence in a region, the closures, isolation, etc...
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 02:16 AM
Mar 2020

... can in keep transmission level so low that, rather than increasing, the number of new cases decreases and a large percentage avoid getting it altogether.

It is NOT inevitable that 60% (or whatever percent) will ultimately end up infected and we are just "flattening the curve." We may see very different progression in different regions.

The worse case scenario models are not the only models.

elleng

(130,864 posts)
6. Dr. Katz is president of True Health Initiative
Sun Mar 22, 2020, 11:36 PM
Mar 2020

David L. Katz
Dr. Katz is president of True Health Initiative and the founding director of the Yale-Griffin Prevention Research Center.

Might be 'better' if we had methods to 'isolate' hot spots, but without testing, not so easy.

pat_k

(9,313 posts)
61. We can already predict high-density areas will have higher levels of transmission.
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 02:43 AM
Mar 2020

Clearly seen with a look at the numbers per capita within NYC vs. outside NYC.

It seems to me that logic would dictate that this would hold for other metro areas with high density. With lack of testing in CA, we can only assume that incidence per capita in the Los Angeles and San Francisco metro areas will be akin to NYC (i.e. more difficult to contain) than in lower density areas.

Perhaps it's too draconian, but limiting travel to/from metropolitan areas could be a way to accomplish one type of "hotspot" isolation and containment -- even in absence of testing data as evidence of increased incidence. If I were "in charge" I would advocate starting with boundaries defined by the Metropolitan Statistical Areas defined by the OMB. There are 392 of them.

Perhaps that is not the way to go, but if we really want to contain as far as possible, at some point, I think we will need to limit travel within the US in some way.

All that said, to the original post: Katz seems to have some notion that the most vulnerable can somehow be protected while the "low risk" go about their business. I can't see how that would be possible. (See post 54)

The Magistrate

(95,244 posts)
10. A Military Concept You Leave Off, Sir, Is The Holding Action
Sun Mar 22, 2020, 11:42 PM
Mar 2020

Most of what is being done is aimed at buying time for researchers and scientists to work on developing anti-virals and vaccines effective against the ailment, in the hope they may achieve this before the bodies pile up too high.

SDANation

(419 posts)
13. A safe and effective vaccine will take a year
Sun Mar 22, 2020, 11:45 PM
Mar 2020

or more. We just don’t have the time. I‘m a huge vaccine advocate but I sure as hell am not accepting a vaccine with less than a year of research.

The Magistrate

(95,244 posts)
15. Understood, Sir
Sun Mar 22, 2020, 11:54 PM
Mar 2020

Holding actions often are desperate affairs. It may prove possible to contrive effective anti-viral drugs more speedily, the tools available to researchers worldwide are much more powerful than even a decade ago. This class of virus has been subject of a good deal of research already, as there have been two quite lethal outbreaks by viruses in the 'family'. Be sure I am not talking about things like synthetic quinine and the like. Slowing the rate of new infections may well save a number of lives, by reducing the strain on medical facilities and staff.

pat_k

(9,313 posts)
58. Not to mention that it could buy time to get our act together on producing plasma from recovered ...
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 02:25 AM
Mar 2020

... and using it to treat new, moderate to severe, cases (article)

Yes, getting recovered donors is job one. Testing to confirm COVID-19 is critical, so we know who actually had it and has recovered and could be a potential donor. Better testing for antibodies too.

Producing plasma products is a very expensive affair, but so is treatment. If treatment with plasma cuts hospital stays in half and saves lives, it may end up "cheaper" than the cost of the extra days that would be spent in hospital without such treatment.

Anyway, just wanted to point out that its is not just vaccines that could turn the tide.

The Magistrate

(95,244 posts)
16. One New Wrinkle In Vaccines, Sir
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 12:01 AM
Mar 2020

Seems to be dead or weakened viral material is no longer always necessary. It is possible to produce portions of the viral shell artificially, those which latch onto a living cell. This seems sufficient to provoke an antibody response, but at no point does the genetic material the virus feature in the potion. There would be no risk of taking the disease from such a vaccine, the questions would be those of its efficacy, in the main.

SDANation

(419 posts)
18. Yeah
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 12:14 AM
Mar 2020

I have no fear of falling ill from a covid vaccine, I do have fear though of long term side effect from a rushed vaccine. All of our vaccine readily given to our children and ourselves have gone through countless years of research and trials to get to the stage they could be given safely and remain highly effective. Right now, rushing past the the normal vaccine stages, by passing safety to assuage fear is terrifying. We are literally skipping years of animal trials and clinical trials to just get a vaccine.

The Magistrate

(95,244 posts)
20. Desperate Situations Evoke Desperate Measures, Sir
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 12:20 AM
Mar 2020

There is no room to doubt the situation is dire all over the world.

magicarpet

(14,144 posts)
51. Inch by inch they are getting closer...
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 01:35 AM
Mar 2020

WHO launches global megatrial of the four most promising coronavirus treatments [View all]
A drug combo already used against HIV. A malaria treatment first tested during World War II. A new antiviral whose promise against Ebola fizzled last year.

Could any of these drugs hold the key to saving COVID-19 patients from serious harm or death? On Friday, the World Health Organization (WHO) announced a large global trial, called SOLIDARITY, to find out if any can treat infections with the new coronavirus for the dangerous respiratory disease. It’s an unprecedented effort—an all-out, coordinated push to collect robust scientific data rapidly during a pandemic. The study, which could include many thousands of patients in dozens of countries, has been designed to be as simple as possible so that even hospitals overwhelmed by an onslaught of COVID-19 patients can participate.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/who-launches-global-megatrial-four-most-promising-coronavirus-treatments

LizBeth

(9,952 posts)
17. A 60 yr old woman was the first to die in my county, yesterday Not use to seeing 60 yr old women
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 12:02 AM
Mar 2020

dying from the flu. I hear it is the inside of the lungs being sliced, or feeling like being cut by glass. I am a 58 yr old woman. I prefer to take it seriously and will self isolate.

SDANation

(419 posts)
34. Cool immediately into sophomorish retorts
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 12:30 AM
Mar 2020

I never said it wasn’t concerning. We don’t know that’s the true rate because there are probably hundreds of thousands walking around with it who are assymptomatic

Response to SDANation (Reply #34)

The Magistrate

(95,244 posts)
22. And On The Order Of a Billion Or So Yearly Get It, Sir
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 12:22 AM
Mar 2020

Surely you are not going to start the 'it's no worse than flu' wheeze?

SDANation

(419 posts)
30. Not at all.
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 12:27 AM
Mar 2020

I’m just saying this is a disease that so far, and I mean so far, has not shown to be as deadly as the flu across all age groups. The flu primarily kills the old and those with pre existing conditions. So does covid. But covid does not kill children or the young an healthy as is the flu does. When anyone gets the flu, you feel horrible. You’re gonna be symptomatic. Covid, thousand of cases of people who are symptomatic.

The Magistrate

(95,244 posts)
38. Just Checking, Sir
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 12:35 AM
Mar 2020

A good many people, especially young and prime age adults, are quite capable of brushing off symptoms and carrying on through flu. The corvid-19 does indeed kill healthy younger adults, though at a far lesser rate than it does the elderly. The problem is that even that lesser rate, given how widely and rapidly a virulence spreads in a naive population, works up to a serious number. One of the reasons younger people do not come to much harm from flu is that when flu becomes serious, there are treatments for it which are more than palliative care, which is pretty much all that can be offered anyone, of any age, afflicted with the corvid-19.

CountAllVotes

(20,868 posts)
52. Neither of us would get care
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 01:48 AM
Mar 2020

That is what the local paper wrote past week.

Two old and one with a chronic condition is what it said -- last to receive care due to only two ventilators and no PPE.

Genocide IMO!

and yes I am freaking out and yes I am and no I really don't care to die right now if I can avoid and no dump is not a leader, dump is a criminal that is killing people off as I type and he is making me quite sick!


SDANation

(419 posts)
36. Italy
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 12:33 AM
Mar 2020

Has the 2nd oldest population in the world. Where are you seeing the death? In the sparsely populated north. You aren’t seeing Rome get hammered. My guess is Italy is getting hit exceptionally hard due to population age and culture. Great article is you got a chance to read it:

http://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/have-many-coronavirus-patients-died-italy/amp/

LizBeth

(9,952 posts)
47. They had the 2nd oldest population last year, and we had the flu last year. Not the same.
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 12:41 AM
Mar 2020

Why even argue this? I do not remember any day of last year, during flu season, in Italy with the second oldest population having 793 die in one day. You?

John Fante

(3,479 posts)
43. And they've been isolating for a good month now.
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 12:39 AM
Mar 2020

Just imagine what the numbers would look llke if they had continued like nothing was amiss. They'd be closing in on 100k dead easy.

Turin_C3PO

(13,964 posts)
33. Yeah and if we don't get our shit together soon,
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 12:29 AM
Mar 2020

we’ll have a million deaths from corona virus, many orders of magnitude worse than the flu.

lapfog_1

(29,199 posts)
41. you first... and the writer of the article, run out an infect yourselves.
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 12:38 AM
Mar 2020

hopefully you don't have children... so we can award you a Darwin if you happen to be one of the unlucky ones.

Oh, and try NOT to interact with anyone else on your way out. The rest of us would like to live.

Seriously... if we just let the pandemic run through the entire population on the planet, up to 10% might die (assume 20% get serious courses of the disease, fully 50% of that number do not have good outcomes without some sort of medical support... these are the numbers coming out of Italy now, where they DO test extensively).

Yes, this does disproportionately affect older adults, especially men with pre-existing conditions, but that doesn't mean if you are under 50 that you are immune.

But we should fight this as humans, all of us together.



SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
29. He states in the article...
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 12:26 AM
Mar 2020
The data from South Korea, where tracking the coronavirus has been by far the best to date, indicate that as much as 99 percent of active cases in the general population are “mild” and do not require specific medical treatment.


South Korea had 104 deaths out of 8897 confirmed cases.

That's a 1.16% mortality rate. And he's saying that 99% of South Korea's cases are mild?

Those numbers don't make sense.

Sid

KY_EnviroGuy

(14,489 posts)
50. One might also ask "are we better off without this article or with it?" (*)
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 01:22 AM
Mar 2020

Article titles can even present dog-whistle dangers. I don't think we need a public attitude of "bring it on".

Reading this, one might dare get comfort from thinking this thing will gently disappear as herd immunity slips into the populace. The problem with that thinking is that epidemiologists tell us we never know the degree of herd immunity until the deed is done. So, we may not want to simply abandon all caution, let it run its course and see what happens because that recklessness could kill half the population in doing our little experiment. In addition, they tell us immunity effectiveness varies significantly between cultures and races around the globe.

The articles I've read by professionals simply say they believe this virus will eventually produce a degree of immunity in the general population but they cannot guarantee it, nor can they say how effective that may be. That's why they call it a "novel" virus because it is mostly unknown and had no track record.

Therefore, there seems to be consensus that we should test as much as possible so we better understand this outbreak and to work very hard to flatten the infection rate curve to minimize deaths and to improve the recovery quality of those who survive.

(*) Was not able to read the entire article as it requires log-in to NYT.

KY..........

pat_k

(9,313 posts)
55. He seems to have some notion...
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 02:08 AM
Mar 2020

.. that it is possible to "surgically" protect the most vulnerable while "the rest of us" get on with our lives and develop herd immunity.

I can't imagine what he could possibly be envisioning (more in post below.)

KY_EnviroGuy

(14,489 posts)
60. Thanks for explaining that. It's an extremely risky proposition.
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 02:34 AM
Mar 2020

We have no way to know ahead that it would work because there's no data on long-term effects from being infected (pulmonary, cardiac, etc.).

And, again we have no guarantee that effective herd immunity will develop.

This has the distinct odor of a right-wingism, set out to keep businesses open.

Being a very worried 72 YO male, I vote for the more cautious approach......

pat_k

(9,313 posts)
65. I thought it smacked off...
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 04:07 AM
Mar 2020

... right-wingnut stuff too. However, when I poked around I found he appears to be an integrative medicine advocate with no particular political affiliation.

His main thing is self-promotion. For example, he wrote a Sci Fi book and then wrote a couple good reviews of it on HuffPo that were deleted because HuffPo became aware the reviews were from the author. (Wikipedia ref)

Apparently, he subscribes to the "there is no crime if you don't get caught" school of thought so many right-wingnuts subscribe to, but, at least to date, he hasn't been out there advocating standard right-wingnut talking points. (I wouldn't be the least surprised to hear reports that he had tho.)

Whatever this guy may be "up to," and however he may have gotten to the NY Times editorial page, the content of the piece offers nothing useful, as far as I can tell. My reasons for this conclusion are in other posts to this thread.

Like you, I'm afraid. It's pretty simple. I'm one of those multi-generation family units. Mine is composed of:

Me: 60, under RA treatment that suppresses immunity
Mom: 83, generally in good health but weighs under 90 lbs and seems to me to be very fragile
Mom's husband: 79, survivor of Amyloidosis that damaged organs.


Of course, I am doing all I can not to endanger my mom or her husband, I work remotely. I'm minimizing shopping with planning (tough because it's my habit to come up with, and pick up, stuff for the next day on my way home.).

Despite keeping "outside" contact to the bare minimum and washing my hands, face, and glasses several times a day, I have this horrible feeling I'm incubating the virus and have already passed it along. I stop these thoughts. They have no basis n current reality but keep popping up. I'm sure I'm one of more than 100 million doing the same thing... being periodically overcome by fear, but mainly just managing day-to-day stuff, keeping going, and staying ready for what may come as far as I am able.






KY_EnviroGuy

(14,489 posts)
66. We wish you the best of luck against this invisible foe.
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 04:29 AM
Mar 2020

You have three lives to protect, all at high risk. I'm the only one here at 72 and high risk but my son lives here too and is pretty conscientious so far. It's those little careless slips that can get us, though. Thank goodness his college has switched to on-line classes although he missed the classroom experience.

My daughter the 5th grade school teacher with our 13 YO granddaughter is my most worrying, as I'm not convinced the SIL will be careful enough. Thank goodness schools are closed.

I just flat-out told both my kids if the virus comes into my house, I'll likely not survive. Too many lung and heart risks.

I see your big secondary challenge is keeping you and your family members from needed care for other health issues such as falls, or the flu. Please tell all to be very careful all day, every day to avoid hospital or doctor's office trips.

Thanks for the info on that author. I suspect he's a right-wing shill or simply not conscious of the danger of dog-whistle statements that our public takes seriously and may become lax in their behavior. He's also echoing what Trump has been suggesting.

KY.............

blitzen

(4,572 posts)
53. Alright, I admit it...The NY Times is indeed the Failing NY Times. No mention of...
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 01:53 AM
Mar 2020

the severe lack of hospital capacity or the utter horror of some of these deaths. To say that it is grim is an understatement:

https://www.propublica.org/article/a-medical-worker-describes--terrifying-lung-failure-from-covid19-even-in-his-young-patients

pat_k

(9,313 posts)
54. No practical way isolate the vulnerable while allowing virus free reign among the "low risk."
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 02:04 AM
Mar 2020

Last edited Mon Mar 23, 2020, 03:02 AM - Edit history (6)

I have no idea what he thinks he is proposing. The article is incredibly vague.

If he has some vision of how to isolate and protect the vulnerable while allowing the virus free reign among the so-called "low risk," great. I wish he would describe it because I see no practical way of accomplishing his so-called "surgical" approach.

For example, how does a multi-generational family protect the vulnerable while allowing the "low risk" members to carry on as usual and get infected, or not, as they develop herd immunity?

I don't know about other people's experience, but my experience is that there are a lot more households with multiple generations living together in high density areas, where incidence is likely to be the highest, and where everyone should be following precautions to the letter to limit spread.

I've lived in, and visited friends in, buildings and walk ups in high density areas. If I can smell the smoke from a neighbor's cigarette, you can bet I am not "isolated" from virus laden droplets circulating in the air. How do you protect and isolate the vulnerable in such a building? The only way is for everyone in the building to do their best to minimize exposure and incidence within the building.

Does anyone else have a clue what he is actually proposing as the "surgical" approach??? (Maybe ship all the old folks along with other high risk people to tent cities in Wyoming or something?)

I'm not familiar with David Katz, but it sounds like from his credentials he should know better.



Crunchy Frog

(26,579 posts)
69. Sounds like internment camps to me.
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 07:27 AM
Mar 2020

I'd be willing to bet that the groups he's associated with are actually right wing think tanks.

Response to SDANation (Original post)

LisaL

(44,973 posts)
67. That's what the author of the op-ed seems to suggest, even as he claims
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 04:37 AM
Mar 2020

we should protect the most vulnerable while allowing others to go on with their lives. How exactly do we protect those most vulnerable is unclear since they don't live in a vacuum.

KewlKat

(5,624 posts)
64. I thought this was about EVERYONE getting sick at a rate that will overwhelm our
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 04:02 AM
Mar 2020

healthcare system? We’ll all get it at some point unless a vaccine is developed but by staying at home we slow the rate of infection to hopefully a manageable rate for the hospitals, staff and supplies.

As for me, if I must return to work rather than work from home I will retire then. My spouse is nearly 74, has Parkinsons, T2D and a heart that doesn’t function well. I will not risk him getting infected thru me. I’m praying I can keep him safe until they can vaccinate...I know, it’s a long shot, but that’s my goal.

Drumpf is incompetent and we must vote him out in November.

Meowmee

(5,164 posts)
70. Yep
Mon Mar 23, 2020, 09:41 AM
Mar 2020

I have to wonder about both the writer and the poster who is apparently a medic in an er currently caring for older covid patients.

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