Thank you Trump: A man has died & wife is under critical care after ingesting chloroquine phosphate

[hlthe2b]

A man has died and his wife is under critical care after the couple, both in their 60s, ingested chloroquine phosphate

(an additive used to clean fish tanks)

https:twitter.com/bubbaprog/status/1242172418099163137

Banner Health experts warn against self-medicating to prevent or treat COVID-19

A man has died and his wife is under critical care after the couple, both in their 60s, ingested chloroquine phosphate, an additive commonly used at aquariums to clean fish tanks. Within thirty minutes of ingestion, the couple experienced immediate effects requiring admittance to a nearby Banner Health hospital.
http://bannerhealth.mediaroom.com/trending-now-at-banner?item=122999

[ProfessorGAC]

1. They Took Fish Tank Cleaner?

Medicine is extremely carefully measured, then added to inert compounds to make a pill.
I'm fairly sure these people didn't have a 3 place balance to accurately measure the dosage.
This is Darwinian.

[MissB]

4. Probably figured it was just like fish antibiotics

Which people sometimes take when they can’t afford a dr.

But yeah, Darwinism.

[3Hotdogs]

6. OK, but no award. They's too old to reproduce so no award.

[hlthe2b]

8. I find something really poignant about elderly people believing Trump so much they would do this

Tragic and beyond pathetically stupid, but poignant and infuriating nonetheless.

[madinmaryland]

24. The Fox News effect. Sad.

[emmaverybo]

27. Yes. It is sad.They are gullible and desperate. Trump is a malignancy.

[JHB]

36. It's Kool-Aid

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. Where there is no vision, the people perish...

This was the first thing that came to my mind, on reading your post.

No idea who said it.

But it sure fits.

[gratuitous]

5. Proverbs 29:18

Watch the Republicans excuse this by saying that the couple doesn't have to worry about Covid-19 anymore. Winning!

[CaliforniaPeggy]

11. Thanks!

[Turbineguy]

3. Yes, get your medical advice from Trump.

Another excellent way to save money is to pre-pay your funeral expenses.

[beachbumbob]

7. sounds like the makings of a wrongful death civil suit against trump and his minions

[Hoyt]

9. You don't take that junk unless in a hospital for proper dosage and monitoring. trump is an ass,

but he never suggested people take it unsupervised. Hell, I doubt he can even pronounce it.

But, doctors are prescribing it and hospitals are stocking up, so somebody thinks it works.

[hlthe2b]

10. STOP IT. He has been promoting it and stating it is safe. It surely is not without risk.

Last edited Mon Mar 23, 2020, 04:59 PM - Edit history (1)

Go defend Trump elsewhere. He is going to cause grievous harm to those who need hydroxychloroquine but can't get it, including Lupus patients and his ignorance will only increase idiots who don't know better doing shit like this.


Here are the facts that you seem unwilling to consider:
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/who-launches-global-megatrial-four-most-promising-coronavirus-treatments

Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine

At a press conference on Friday, President Donald Trump called chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine a “game changer.” “I feel good about it,” Trump said. His remarks have led to a rush in demand for the decades-old antimalarials. (“It reminds me a little bit of the toilet paper phenomenon and everybody’s running to the store,” Caplan says.)

The WHO scientific panel designing SOLIDARITY had originally decided to leave the duo out of the trial, but had a change of heart at a meeting in Geneva on 13 March, because the drugs “received significant attention” in many countries, according to the report of a WHO working group that looked into the drugs’ potential. The widespread interested prompted “the need to examine emerging evidence to inform a decision on its potential role.”

The available data are thin. The drugs work by decreasing the acidity in endosomes, compartments inside cells that they use to ingest outside material and that some viruses can coopt to enter a cell. But the main entryway for SARS-CoV-2 is a different one, using its so-called spike protein to attach to a receptor on the surface of human cells. Studies in cell culture have suggested chloroquines have some activity against SARS-CoV-2, but the doses needed are usually high—and could cause serious toxicities.

Encouraging cell study results with chloroquines against two other viral diseases, dengue and chikungunya, didn’t pan out in people in randomized clinical trials. And nonhuman primates infected with chikungunya did worse when given chloroquine. “Researchers have tried this drug on virus after virus, and it never works out in humans. The dose needed is just too high,” says Susanne Herold, an expert on pulmonary infections at the University of Giessen.

Results from COVID-19 patients are murky. Chinese researchers who report treating more than 100 patients with chloroquine touted its benefits in a letter in BioScience, but the data underlying the claim have not been published. All in all, more than 20 COVID-19 studies in China used chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine, WHO notes, but their results have been hard to come by. “WHO is engaging with Chinese colleagues at the mission in Geneva and have received assurances of improved collaboration; however, no data has been shared regarding the chloroquine studies.”

Researchers in France have published a study in which they treated 20 COVID-19 patients with hydroxychloroquine. They concluded that the drug significantly reduced viral load in nasal swabs. But it was not a randomized controlled trial and it didn’t report clinical outcomes such as deaths. In guidance published on Friday, the U.S. Society of Critical Care Medicine said “there is insufficient evidence to issue a recommendation on the use of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine in critically ill adults with COVID-19.”

Hydroxychloroquine, in particular, might do more harm than good. The drug has a variety of side effects and can in rare cases harm the heart. Because people with heart conditions are at higher risk of severe COVID-19, that is a concern, says David Smith, an infectious disease physician at the University of California, San Diego. “This is a warning signal, but we still need to do the trial,” he says. What’s more, a rush to use the drug for COVID-19

might make it harder for the people who need it to treat their rheumatoid arthritis or malaria.

[Hoyt]

14. Then why are so many doctors prescribing it right here? If I'm hospitalized with poor prognosis,

with no alternative treatment, I'm taking it off-label.

You are free to say no, you'll just take your chances with no treatment until the medical bean-counters perform their double-blind clinical trials and have it peer reviewed, perhaps by doctors invested in drug companies that will charge much more with some slightly altered formulation.

Anyone who takes it outside the hospital is an idiot, though.

[hlthe2b]

16. NY is conducting trials under compassionate use protocols. Actual efficacy & combined safety trials

This isn't my first rodeo with these drugs and attempts to hype them as the cure-all for dengue hemorrhagic fever when I was overseas. And desperate physicians tried it. It failed miserably.

The Chinese have warned us, consistent with what I published upstream. Taking 2 grams or more which may be needed to achieve any effect is toxic as hell.

I know you feel the need to latch onto some miracle, but this is highly unlikely to be the one. You and everyone else really shouldn't be getting your medical advice from Trump.

[Hoyt]

17. Actually, Cuomo doesn't know that since it's approved for malaria and RA, doctors can prescribe it

off-label.

Actually, I don't feel the need to latch on this drug. I think this is one area -- perhaps the only one -- where trump might be right and the FDA, CDC docs are wrong.

Actually, the recommend dosage is 400 mg BID first day, and once a day from 2 - 5 days in a hospital. Any taking 2 grams, especially on outpatient basis without physician supervision, is an idiot.



https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=229156


https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/therapeutic-options.html

From French state owned France 24

Didier Raoult, director of a university hospital institute in Marseille, explained that he had conducted a clinical trial in which he treated 25 Covid-19 patients with hydroxychloroquine. After six days, he said, only 25 percent of patients who took this drug still had the virus in their body. By contrast, 90 percent of those who had not taken hydroxychloroquine continued to carry the Covid-19."

https://www.france24.com/en/20200320-will-an-old-malaria-drug-help-fight-the-coronavirus


Doctors Turn to Malaria Drugs as Potential Coronavirus Treatment
Some studies of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine have shown early signs of improving symptoms and manufacturers are donating drugs or looking increase supplies
https://www.wsj.com/articles/doctors-turn-to-malaria-drugs-as-potential-coronavirus-treatment-11584729626


China, South Korea and Belgium have added it to the treatment protocol for CV19

https://www.businessinsider.com/malaria-pill-chloroquine-tested-as-coronavirus-treatment-2020-3

[hlthe2b]

18. You are reading reporting on case series data that did not even provide outcome.

And no, you are not correct, but if it makes you feel better that is just fine, but please stop promoting it. Obviously, Trump has endeared himself to you and you are willing to listen to him over the medical community. Fortunately should you become sick, your physician will make decisions based on actual data and outcome-based evidence. BTW, that is not even an effective in-vitro dose.

I have provided you actual facts. you keep posting links to nonscientific garbage.

[Hoyt]

19. Docs are prescribing it, that's good enough for me. BTW -- even if trump nixes social distancing,

I'm sticking with it.

[hlthe2b]

20. Not likely. Outside of a controlled setting few physicians are going to risk licenses & liability

on a hunch. And no physicians are NOT widely prescribing this for COVID-19.

Believe what you will, but they are NOT. Whether you DEMAND it, or not. Fortunately.

[Hoyt]

21. Well Chris Hayes says they are and that it is even causing shortages. WSJ and others say so as well.

Bayer shipped 3 Million tablets to US Government. NY is testing it, as are feds.

The Quacks at CDC:

Information for Clinicians on Therapeutic Options for COVID-19 Patients

Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine
Hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine are oral prescription drugs that have been used for treatment of malaria and certain inflammatory conditions. Chloroquine has been used for malaria treatment and chemoprophylaxis, and hydroxychloroquine is used for treatment of rheumatoid arthritis, systemic lupus erythematosus and porphyria cutanea tarda. Both drugs have in-vitro activity against SARS-CoV, SARS-CoV-2, and other coronaviruses, with hydroxychloroquine having relatively higher potency against SARS-CoV-2 [1,4,5]. A study in China reported that chloroquine treatment of COVID-19 patients had clinical and virologic benefit versus a comparison group, and chloroquine was added as a recommended antiviral for treatment of COVID-19 in China [6]. Based upon limited in-vitro and anecdotal data, chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine are currently recommended for treatment of hospitalized COVID-19 patients in several countries. Both chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine have known safety profiles with the main concerns being cardiotoxicity (prolonged QT syndrome) with prolonged use in patients with hepatic or renal dysfunction and immunosuppression but have been reportedly well-tolerated in COVID-19 patients.

Due to higher in-vitro activity against SARS-CoV-2 and its wider availability in the United States compared with chloroquine, hydroxychloroquine has been administered to hospitalized COVID-19 patients on an uncontrolled basis in multiple countries, including in the United States. One small study reported that hydroxychloroquine alone or in combination with azithromycin reduced detection of SARS-CoV-2 RNA in upper respiratory tract specimens compared with a non-randomized control group but did not assess clinical benefit [7]. Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin are associated with QT prolongation and caution is advised when considering these drugs in patients with chronic medical conditions (e.g. renal failure, hepatic disease) or who are receiving medications that might interact to cause arrythmias.

Hydroxychloroquine is currently under investigation in clinical trials for pre-exposure or post-exposure prophylaxis of SARS-CoV-2 infection, and treatment of patients with mild, moderate, and severe COVID-19. In the United States, several clinical trials of hydroxychloroquine for prophylaxis or treatment of SARS-CoV-2 infection are planned or will be enrolling soon. More information on trials can be found at: https://clinicaltrials.gov/external icon.

There are no currently available data from Randomized Clinical Trials (RCTs) to inform clinical guidance on the use, dosing, or duration of hydroxychloroquine for prophylaxis or treatment of SARS-CoV-2 infection. Although optimal dosing and duration of hydroxychloroquine for treatment of COVID-19 are unknown, some U.S. clinicians have reported anecdotally different hydroxychloroquine dosing such as: 400mg BID on day one, then daily for 5 days; 400 mg BID on day one, then 200mg BID for 4 days; 600 mg BID on day one, then 400mg daily on days 2-5.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/therapeutic-options.html


There is also discussion of other similar drugs.

[hlthe2b]

22. I told you NY is using under STUDY protocol.

The shortages are coming from idiots demanding it thinking it is preventative .

And yes, trials use a variety of doses, even those so low as to be expected to be ineffective. That is protocol in a randomized clinical trial that seeks to combine safety and efficacy against control.

[Hoyt]

23. What about CDC, and doctors prescribing as off-label use?

[hlthe2b]

31. CDC is NOT prescribing. It is the nation's public health agency. It is providing INFORMATION ONLY

They do NOT perform hands-on patient care.

NIH does conduct clinical trials both "in-house" and through a network of funded clinical research centers. CDC does not. But, they share information to physicians asking about both trials, what information is available and yes, off-label use elsewhere. The latter is legal, but exceedingly risky and not something most physicians would do for something this serious outside a teaching hospital or major referral hospital.

[Hoyt]

38. Never said they were. CDC quote above shows dosage and says doctors are prescribing

the drug. Clearly it is being used off-label in treatment right here in USA. Hence, CDC website includes it under therapeutic options.

When reading, watch for commas.

[hlthe2b]

39. CDC always includes info like this and they will very clearly state what we know and what we don't

This is not their recommendation for treating, but rather what has been done to date and is now undergoing rigorous study. I hope it ends up useful, but the many viruses at which it has been directed but failed does but its potential into stark contrast to your enthusiasm. As I told you I have first-hand experience with the disappointing findings in Dengue and am up to date on other attempts (failures)


I know you are convinced this is the answer and thus you don't have to worry, but I hope that does not translate to your being less than attentive to reducing exposures to yourself and to others.

[Hoyt]

40. Fine, it is a therapeutic option and it does not say it's quackery like you.

If you don’t think it works, don’t use it. It’s really that simple.

I get you had a disappointment. You probably would have fought it’s use for malaria, RA, Lupus. I’m sure plenty did. Fortunately, they didn’t prevail.

[hlthe2b]

41. I did NOT say it was quackery. It is an unproven indication and requires study... Your snide remark

aside, I have been advocating for STUDY and THAT is what any RESPONSIBLE clinician would be advocating for. There is that pesky oath:" First do NO HARM" that most of us still believe in. That does not mean not trying new things. Your angry tirade and false accusations aside...

It is unbelievable to me that you can't understand that a series of cases-patients who received the drug (and whose outcomes were largely not even reported) constitutes an efficacy trial, much less safety.

[Drahthaardogs]

32. Chinese reported 500 mg dosed 2x's a day

For 10 days.

The pharmakinetics of that drug is weird.

To that end, it was used for SARs and MERs and showed some promise.

China and ROK both claimed to have some success with it for COVID 19.

[hlthe2b]

33. Actually chinese reported much higher doses needed (2g at which toxicities outweighed any benefit.)

It is the Chinese who have warned us that this is not working.

I'm sure you haven't read through my other postings and it gets a little old having to repost again, but if you aren't able to read journal articles especially Lancet, BMJ, and other European journals you are not getting a clear picture.

I try, to either synopsize from their abstracts or to use Science cites, rather than MSM sites to post here, since the latter are not getting the story correct.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/who-launches-global-megatrial-four-most-promising-coronavirus-treatments

Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine

At a press conference on Friday, President Donald Trump called chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine a “game changer.” “I feel good about it,” Trump said. His remarks have led to a rush in demand for the decades-old antimalarials. (“It reminds me a little bit of the toilet paper phenomenon and everybody’s running to the store,” Caplan says.)

The WHO scientific panel designing SOLIDARITY had originally decided to leave the duo out of the trial, but had a change of heart at a meeting in Geneva on 13 March, because the drugs “received significant attention” in many countries, according to the report of a WHO working group that looked into the drugs’ potential. The widespread interested prompted “the need to examine emerging evidence to inform a decision on its potential role.”

The available data are thin. The drugs work by decreasing the acidity in endosomes, compartments inside cells that they use to ingest outside material and that some viruses can coopt to enter a cell. But the main entryway for SARS-CoV-2 is a different one, using its so-called spike protein to attach to a receptor on the surface of human cells. Studies in cell culture have suggested chloroquines have some activity against SARS-CoV-2, but the doses needed are usually high—and could cause serious toxicities.

Encouraging cell study results with chloroquines against two other viral diseases, dengue and chikungunya, didn’t pan out in people in randomized clinical trials. And nonhuman primates infected with chikungunya did worse when given chloroquine. “Researchers have tried this drug on virus after virus, and it never works out in humans. The dose needed is just too high,” says Susanne Herold, an expert on pulmonary infections at the University of Giessen.

Results from COVID-19 patients are murky. Chinese researchers who report treating more than 100 patients with chloroquine touted its benefits in a letter in BioScience, but the data underlying the claim have not been published. All in all, more than 20 COVID-19 studies in China used chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine, WHO notes, but their results have been hard to come by. “WHO is engaging with Chinese colleagues at the mission in Geneva and have received assurances of improved collaboration; however, no data has been shared regarding the chloroquine studies.”

Researchers in France have published a study in which they treated 20 COVID-19 patients with hydroxychloroquine. They concluded that the drug significantly reduced viral load in nasal swabs. But it was not a randomized controlled trial and it didn’t report clinical outcomes such as deaths. In guidance published on Friday, the U.S. Society of Critical Care Medicine said “there is insufficient evidence to issue a recommendation on the use of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine in critically ill adults with COVID-19.”

Hydroxychloroquine, in particular, might do more harm than good. The drug has a variety of side effects and can in rare cases harm the heart. Because people with heart conditions are at higher risk of severe COVID-19, that is a concern, says David Smith, an infectious disease physician at the University of California, San Diego. “This is a warning signal, but we still need to do the trial,” he says. What’s more, a rush to use the drug for COVID-19

might make it harder for the people who need it to treat their rheumatoid arthritis or malaria.


China, where the deadly pathogen first emerged in December, recommended the decades-old malaria drug chloroquine to treat infected patients in guidelines issued in February after seeing encouraging results in clinical trials. But within days, it cautioned doctors and health officials about the drug’s lethal side effects and rolled back its usage.

This came after local media reported that a Wuhan Institute of Virology study found that the drug can kill an adult just dosed at twice the daily amount recommended for treatment, which is one gram.

[Drahthaardogs]

34. I am a toxicologist and read the Abstract from China

But not the full article. 2 g of chloroquine a day are dangerous levels, although initial malarial dose is 1500 salt then 1000 mg over the next 48 hours.

[hlthe2b]

35. Yes. And that's why they issued the warning. I've worked overseas where these drugs

were thought to be the manna from heaven for a number of viral diseases, including dengue and its associated deadly hemorrhagic fever because as the article I linked had referenced in-vitro studies showing effect. They are thought of (because of ubiquity) for every damned virus I've ever worked on--even a number of zoonotic diseases that can circulate from time to time. The military even tried it on Venezuelan Equine Encephalitis (on troops) in fact in 1995 when more than 14k human cases occurred from S. America to the US . But, as with other viruses, it has not panned out. We shall see. It would be nice because it is more available worldwide, but there is little to believe it will be an exception. Sadly, so many are grasping at it as the answer. If that causes them not to do the things everyone has to do to prevent spread, then this is the height of irresponsibility.

[Drahthaardogs]

37. Well, remember the first rule of toxicology is

"It is the dose that differentiates the poison from the cure",

To that end, none of the drugs have shown great promise, although some more than others.

Chloroquine has actually shown better than the antivirals at this point from what I have read.

[struggle4progress]

12. ... Where self-medication is common and chloroquine is used without supervision

to treat virtually any febrile condition, chloroquine abuse has been claimed to be a common cause of cardiac atrio-ventricular block. These patients are also at risk of developing chloroquine retinopathy.

Irreversible visual impairment resulting from accumulation of chloroquine in the retina is a recognized complication of long-term, high-dosage therapy ...

Acute chloroquine poisoning is often fatal: oral doses as low as 50 mg base/kg can be lethal. Nausea, vomiting and drowsiness occur rapidly and are followed by slurring of speech, agitation, breathlessness due to pulmonary oedema, convulsions, coma, impaired vision and cardiac dysrhythmias.

If the patient is seen within a few hours of the event, emesis must be induced or gastric lavage undertaken as rapidly as possible. Otherwise, treatment is symptomatic and is directed particularly to sustaining cardiovascular and respiratory function ...

https://perma.cc/4BLL-78QT

[handmade34]

13. and he tweets this afternoon...

Link to tweet

[Hoyt]

15. Cuomo reported today that NY would begin trying the drug tomorrow.

[Hoyt]

25. They used fish tank cleaner containing the stuff?

[dewsgirl]

26. And he's up there pushing it again.

[jimfields33]

28. You are saying governor Cuomo is pushing it?

I think he received info from experts and will begin giving it to people tomorrow. I don’t classify that as pushing.

[dewsgirl]

29. No of course not, Trump.

Cuomo was talking in terms of a trial. Trump has done that, but also has popped off at random pushing it.

[jimfields33]

30. Sorry about that

Sometimes reading the thread at once can be confusing especially right before your reply there were discussions of Governor Cuomo. Thanks for the clarification. You are awesome. Have a great week.