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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPlease Stop Minimizing the Death of Older Adults
https://whatsyourgrief.com/please-dont-minimize-the-death-of-older-adults/As social distancing sets in, theres an undercurrent of conversation happening in group chats, direct messages, and on social media. People are wondering whether implemented measures are underreaction, overreaction, or just right. With so much unknown, Im not sure anyone knows the answer but there sure are a lot of opinions.
One particular opinion, that Ive heard several times now, drives me especially crazy. Its an attempt to downplay the significance of the virus by saying, only older people die from it.
I dont know why people feel so free to say this, perhaps because Im in middle age they think Ill find it reassuring, but I dont. I love quite a few people in their 60s, 70s, and 80s, and it would be devastating to lose any of them. What this statement ultimately implies, whether intended or not, is that we should worry less about the virus because it impacts old and not young.
This stance is not surprising. According to WHOs Global Campaign to Combat Ageism, ageism is both socially normalized and not widely countered. So, in other words, were so used to the devaluing of older age groups that we hardly see it, let alone cry foul when it happens. These biases extend to how we view the death of older people and the grief of those who love them.
Though the current situation has me unusually heated, the truth is Ive been meaning to write this post for a long time. The minimization of death and grief related to older people has been commonplace for as long as I know. Just ask anyone whos received sympathies like
At least he lived a good long life.
Dont be sad; you had 80 good years with her.
Its the natural order of things.
It was her time.
Statements like these are often a misguided attempt to provide comfort to the person whos grieving. But in reality, they can be quite minimizing. If you reread them dont they all seem like they could be followed with and so you shouldnt be sad.
When supporting a grieving person, its never advisable to try and point out a silver lining. Nor should you ever explain to a grieving person why they should feel any less devastated than they do. Someone they love has just died, and they are entitled to all their pain.
hlthe2b
(102,225 posts)TrishaJ
(797 posts)suggested, that's the first thing that came to mind. "Let the weak and elderly die to save the economy." Can't get much more NAZI than that!
Igel
(35,296 posts)"Kill the Jews and other minorities first."
Nazis didn't round up the elderly for Terezin, Auschwitz, or the other camps.
LiberalLoner
(9,761 posts)That translates roughly to life unworthy of life and exhorted families to turn their burden in to them to be exterminated. And families did it.
LiberalLoner
(9,761 posts)Kittycow
(2,396 posts)is a good documentary about murderous nurses snuffing out disabled kids. It's on YouTube.
Thank you.
Kittycow
(2,396 posts)I was shocked when I found this information out; I had never heard of these horror hospitals before!
RVN VET71
(2,690 posts)But there is a cross-over with the Republican ethos, dammit. No, they're not yet speaking of camps or crap like that. But they've been complaining, for instance, about the strain on entitlements caused because people are living too long. Of course, if it were to come down to euthanasia, their grand folks would be exempt because, after all . . . .
And Nazism is exactly what I think of when I see posts about the virus "only affecting the elderly." You have to be a nazi-prone scum bag to harbor feelings of acceptance of the death of any innocent person and to establish rules that allow for that death -- because, hey, it won't affect me.
Trump is old and therefore expendable, right?. Maybe he should expose himself to the virus as proof that Wall Street is more important than human life.
certainot
(9,090 posts)suggesting the death figure is blown way up
i'll bet that's being repeated all over the country
motherfuckers
TexasBushwhacker
(20,172 posts)BTW, Dan Patrick is a bipolar, twice bankrupt, evangelical Christian who will turn 70 on April 4th.
OhNo-Really
(3,985 posts)COVID-19 is indiscriminate.
The statistics in charts here
https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/imm/covid-19-daily-data-summary.pdf
hlthe2b
(102,225 posts)I am responding to the idiot TX LT General's comment only.
maddiemom
(5,106 posts)IronLionZion
(45,425 posts)he's been noticeably absent from press briefings lately
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)Has it come to that? Are we that depraved?
Paleontologists identify the beginning of true humanity as the time when the bones of very old people, and people with healed injuries and diseases appear. That's a sure indicator that humans began helping other humans. When we stop doing that, we are no longer human.
onecaliberal
(32,818 posts)PunkinPi
(4,875 posts)CatMor
(6,212 posts)my dearest friend since 7th grade just died. I feel a piece of me is gone and life will never be the same. I am heartbroken.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)Some people on here have been dismissive of elderly deaths.
sop
(10,154 posts)Young vs. old, rich vs. poor, left vs. right, rural vs. urban, white vs. non-white, male vs. female, christian vs. non-christian, educated vs. uneducated, and the list could go on.
Caliman73
(11,730 posts)You just tell people that those "other" people have something that you don't have, and didn't earn it.
Also, one correction. Rich vs. poor is not Donald Trump's idea. The Rich have exploited the poor forever. Rich v non rich is a valid struggle as the Rich hoard wealth created by everyone else to themselves and try to get the rest of us to fight for scraps.
Trump is just tapping into old animosities.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)Cousin Dupree
(1,866 posts)mokawanis
(4,438 posts)cayugafalls
(5,640 posts)Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick suggests he, other seniors willing to die to get economy going again
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-lt-gov-dan-patrick-suggests-he-other-seniors-willing-n1167341
I am 60 with a 20 year old in college and I don't want to sacrifice myself on his alter for the economy! The US can bail out the economy instead of giving billionaires and large corporations a free hand out.
Eyeball_Kid
(7,430 posts)Or is it Trump?
Whichever, expressing loyalty now demands death to the vulnerable.
And Trump's approval rating is over 40%??
Either we're a much sicker society than we ever could have imagined, or Brad Parscale has rigged the opinion polls.
I suspect the latter.
Alwaysna
(574 posts)I guess they want rid of people before they draw social security.
UpInArms
(51,280 posts)It was a shitty marriage and he was a rotten husband ...
But when my grandmother died and I was wracked with grief (I loved her dearly and miss her still - this was in 1984) ... he looked at me and said:
I dont know why you are crying, she was an old woman.
That was it. I kicked him out and never looked back.
CTyankee
(63,901 posts)I don't have to interact with him very much, but the last time, at our granddaughter's college graduation, I shut him down by interrupting one of his little verbal ditties by telling him "That was boring..."
Oh, his reaction was just wonderful to see...
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,988 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)This is just sick and sad.
Igel
(35,296 posts)It's a hard choice.
But unless you're in a very well-off society, hard choices happen. "Do I pay rent or the medical bill?" is a hard choice.
If you're a doctor and have the choice between a 70-year-old person with cancer and a 35-year-old mother of 2 with no other illness, you have a choice. You can let random chance--which one are you standing closest to--decide. Or you can employ some sort of heuristic, apply some sort of morality.
We all have fairly strict moral codes, and we all love preaching our code, insisting that ours is the One True Code no less than the most fervent fundamentalist quasi-pharisee.
Under most codes, the elderly rank lower. Most codes wind up being utilitarian: What brings the most good or the most use to society? If the elderly patient has some other circumstance--has inherited three grandchildren that she's raising while the 30-something has no responsibilities and is the one with cancer--then the heuristic gives a different result. We can argue about utilitarian codes, but if we limit "use or good to society" to things like child rearing, productivity and type of productivity, that metric usually gets fairly wide assent.
If we include less obvious things, like "progressives are of more use than conservatives" then we're at the same level as "Christians count more than Muslims" or "whites count more than blacks." If we say, "Well, this relative here will really miss gramps, while this person over here has all his relatives in Idaho, 2000 miles away" then it's just emotion and bias.
Some people get so caught up in conflicts in their code, or conflicts between their code and their emotions, that they just melt down and say, "I can't decide!!!" That person is back to saying random events dictate things, and that's little different from the fundamentalist who sits there, hands folded, and says, "I leave it in God's hands, God's will be done."
Beartracks
(12,809 posts)He used the following example:
A very sick baby dies. The family consoles eachother: "It was God's will."
But if the baby had recovered, the family celebrates: "It was God's will!"
It doesn't matter what the outcome is, the family would say it was God's will.
If everything is claimed to be God's will -- that is, there are no examples of something that is NOT God's will -- then one's assertion that God's will was done is a false argument.
(Yeah, okay, not saying God doesn't exist, just that this "God's will" assertion provides no argumentative proof.)
I don't recall what he said this is an example of, philosophically, but it always stayed with me.
RobinA
(9,888 posts)why saying it's God's will is a false argument. Now, I AM saying God doesn't exist, but if you subscribe to an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God, why isn't everything his will? It's one of the things that makes me not get believers. Well, I "get" believers, but it's one of the things that makes me shake my head at believers. I am on a breast cancer forum and when some one has a successful treatment they say "God is good." The first thing my fingers itch to type is, Is this the same God that gave you breast cancer?
Beartracks
(12,809 posts)But as I recall, if you're arguing FOR something, then the OPPOSITE has to also be able to be demonstrated: what happens when something is NOT God's will? But since nothing is not God's will...
=========
Stonepounder
(4,033 posts)According to the Bible, "Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil". Translate that into modern and it means that Humans got free will. God was no longer the puppeteer, pulling the strings on the entire human race, we got to make our own decisions. If everything is "God's will" then we have no free will and are just puppets dancing around at a Punch and Judy Show for the amusement of some higher race of beings.
I just can't buy that!
mcar
(42,300 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)This society is individualistic. Nobody is sacrificed for the common good and that's as it should be if everything else is individualistic. If the mother of 2 can't pay and the 70 year old can, that's what determines it.
Also the 70 year old could be a scientist who might discover the cure or contribute to it. There are other factors.
mahannah
(893 posts)Celerity
(43,299 posts)paste
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... click the link and scroll down.
mahannah
(893 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)The original page that this illustration appears on is all I know about. Maybe you could explore the website and there might be a "contact us" email address or online form (or a phone number) of someone in the office, or the staff, or the art department, or the website design and graphics department... they may have the information you seek.
JPPaverage
(508 posts)I recently lost my dad. He was 89. It wasn't easy, even though we knew it was coming. If anyone out there wants me or any of us old people dead then FUCK YOU!!!
Remember, were old and may not care about going to jail if we kill you. Sarcasm.
dewsgirl
(14,961 posts)I'm really sorry about your dad.
Demsrule86
(68,543 posts)I miss him everyday...gone to soon at 65.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,669 posts)He was in very poor health but even though we knew he didn't have long, it hurt a lot when he passed. My mother passed away at 84, 15 years ago, also after a long illness. I still miss both of them terribly. Old people are not disposable. They are our parents and grandparents and in some cases us. Fuck anybody who wants them or us dead for the sake of their fucking stock market. By the way, what will the economy do when the bodies start piling up - and they won't all be old, either.
Just fuck these people.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Rube Icon
(78 posts)Youbetcha!
keithbvadu2
(36,765 posts)Republicans are in favor of killing living babies and have done so.
Pro-life is a myth.
The supposed pro-lifers cared naught when the state of Texas (republican gov, republican Prez) deliberately killed living baby Sun Hudson against the mother's wishes because he was an inconvenience to the state.
It is not a matter of life to the supposed pro-lifers.
It is a matter of control.
Demsrule86
(68,543 posts)kag
(4,079 posts)He's got a youtube channel and a patreon (to which I donate). He is EXCELLENT!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQANb2YPwAtK-IQJrLaaUFw
keithbvadu2
(36,765 posts)Millennial expression for CV - boomer remover.
(I'm a boomer)
notdarkyet
(2,226 posts)dewsgirl
(14,961 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,810 posts)My mom is 72 and a Democratic Party member. Back in 2016 she drove a few of her girlfriends to Susan B. Anthony's grave site to honor her on election day (She lives outside of Rochester NY).
We are minimizing the deaths of life long die hard Democratics. Her grandparents ALL lived well into their 90'.s
My mom has 20 years left - I don't want to lose her to fucking Donald Trump's stupidity.
If she dies, she asked her obit reads: Died because #45 is inept.
spooky3
(34,438 posts)Disposable, when they have at least 20+ years of life expectancy, is outrageous. Look at the ages of CEOs, many physicians, presidential candidates, etc.
And it shouldnt be described wrt the impact on loved ones. Thats like saying men shouldnt be sexist because they wouldnt like their wives, mothers, daughters, etc., treated like that.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Nowhere near enough time.
Azathoth
(4,607 posts)It's low-IQ high-greed conservatives who are more than willing to have other people make sacrifices on their behalf.
bhcodem
(231 posts)Plus with all the restrictions on visiting elderly or attending group activities like funerals, those of us with elderly (or any age) that die of any cause, will not be able to be with their loved ones during their final hours. How cruel and uncaring to take such an attitude.
jayfish
(10,039 posts)with the "pro-life" position. I guess they're big fans of Jack Kevorkian now.
bubbazero
(296 posts)Mr. Patrick, could you please refresh my (your) memory, 1. WE HOLD THESE TRUTHS TO BE SELF EVIDENT--What Truths are these, Which ones did we FOUND this country on!......2. WHAT ARE THE LAST SIX WORDS OF THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE. Can you please repeat those--(schmuck)
I_UndergroundPanther
(12,463 posts)My mom died January 2nd. I still miss her.
we can do it
(12,180 posts)It is beyond the pale now.
iluvtennis
(19,844 posts)WestLosAngelesGal
(268 posts)We aren't milk souring in the fridge.
We are living beings.
And this is not Logan's Run.
Demsrule86
(68,543 posts)Half the cases in hospital are people between 20 and 55. I personally know three that are on ventilators in Georgia...one is a child and the other two...husband and wife teachers are in their 30's.
FakeNoose
(32,628 posts)In the beginning the only statistics were out of China and South Korea, and death rates skewed to the elderly and older people. I don't know why, except perhaps as a culture the Asians are more likely to count their older citizens, because they are objects of reverence? In any case, the data we are seeing now (including data from the US and Europe) are showing more frequent deaths among younger victims, and many are under 30.
The first Covid-19 death in our area (Allegheny County/Pittsburgh) happened a week ago and it was a 30-year-old woman. Suddenly the media is figuring out that it's not just old people who die from Covid. This is a game-changer!
quakerboy
(13,919 posts)that it was because a large number of older Chinese males are smokers. Makes sense to me that people with a history of having done not so nice things to their lungs would be more likely to die from a virus that also does not so nice things to the lungs.
FakeNoose
(32,628 posts)... however in China there are (I believe) many smokers among the younger demographic as well.
In general the air quality in many of the densely populated areas of China is bad, and less regulated than in the US. Not that we're so great here, but environmental laws that protect air quality have been enforced here for the last 30+ years. Whereas in China and other parts of Asia they have no such laws or enforcement. It's likely that lifelong smoking, plus the air pollution in some parts of China lead to higher death rates of older folks.
I still think there may have been under-reporting of the younger deaths though. Perhaps younger victims were not tested or diagnosed as Covid deaths. It's just a guess on my part.
MoonchildCA
(1,301 posts)It was 2 months short of her 100th birthday. She lived alone until her last 4 months, though my parents lived in the same complex. Sometimes she took care of them, instead of the other way around.
The loss of her left a large hole in our family. Of course, it was expected, but I still miss her to this day, 20 years later.
Dem forever
(79 posts)You may consider yourself young today. But trust me its an illusion in a blink of an eye ..you are the old one in society. My mom lived to 100. Never in a nursing home or a drag on her community. Lived in her own home until the end. Im not willing to die before those republicans are kicked out of office. Trust me Ill hang around a long time until that happens. A long freakin time maybe 100 years also.
VOX
(22,976 posts)And Im not some dottering, helpless geezer fumbling for his keys in the dark. I gig with a local band, swim, bike, travel (well, I did), etc. Im finally the master of my own fate, having retired from a 31-year career in higher education.
Im alert, sound, healthy, and get around with ZERO issues, except for some deafness caused by ROCK AND ROLL, which is corrected by nearly invisible hearing aids. The fun is just beginning, all the heavy lifting is done. I feel like an adolescent without the angst and turbulence.
I will NOT give in to the fascist asshole, nor will I succumb to the virus-disaster that HE MISMANAGED, to put it kindly. I might get sick, but I REFUSE to die. Not yet. I still have much to experience!
The_REAL_Ecumenist
(719 posts)Guilded Lilly
(5,591 posts)Ohioboy
(3,240 posts)I've heard this ugly sentiment expressed by many since this pandemic started. The other thing is when people compare the number of deaths with car accident fatalities, as if because people die in car accidents a few more deaths from disease is to be accepted.
jorgevlorgan
(8,287 posts)Last edited Tue Mar 24, 2020, 02:41 PM - Edit history (1)
So far. This is not an "old person" disease in the least.
*in LA County
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Is it higher than the death rate among older adults? I imagine it also includes a lot of "18+" folks who still have that "I'm invincible and I'll live forever" mentality, the "it won't happen to me" generation who continue to party all the time in large groups for spring break.
The wiser and more realistic "older adults" are the ones who take their health seriously, who understand the risks, who know that life is fragile and who do our best to protect ourselves and to not spread the disease. Yet, for all of our effort... the spring-breakers and the "don't-tread-on-me" crowd will continue to do as they please because "freedom" and other reasons (or something).
jorgevlorgan
(8,287 posts)I still think the mortality rate is higher for older folks, but the fact this many are hospitalized who are younger doesn't seem great for them either.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-03-23/coronavirus-patients-los-angeles-county-ages-18-65%3f_amp=true
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)With an estimated US death toll of 2 million if we don't institute strict isolation, we're talking 1 million US adults dying in the prime of their life over the next 6-18 months.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)I guess I'm not really clear what the point is you're trying to make. It sounds as though you disagree with the premise of the OP. Perhaps you feel that the our concern about the recovery rate of older adults means we're not paying enough attention to the "infection rate" of all individuals? I don't know. It's just not clear where you're going with this.
All I can do is repeat that if 50% of the deaths are younger than 70 (a larger group) and 50% of the deaths are people over 70 (a smaller group)... that seems a bit imbalanced to me and it clearly suggests that older adults are at a much higher risk of death. Or less-likely to recover.
I think any frustration you may be observing is related to something I said earlier (just above) specifically, that the wiser and more realistic "older adults" appear to be the ones who take their health seriously. We are the ones who better appreciate and understand the risks. We know that that life is fragile and therefore by-in-large, we are the ones who typically do better in buckling-down to protect ourselves and to not spread the disease.
Yet, for all of our effort... the spring-breakers and the "don't-tread-on-me" crowd will continue to do as they please because "freedom" and other reasons (or something)... and that put EVERYONE at risk, even the ones who have done their level best to minimize risk and exposure.
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)The suggestion that old people should sacrifice themselves implies only old people will die, which is wrong.
It also implies that old people are expendable, which is evil.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)I saw nothing at all that came anywhere close to suggesting that older adults are the "only old people die".
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)I was talking about Patrick's suggestion that grandparents should sacrifice themselves!
Patrick is wrong on so many levels:
1. He implies only old people will die. (Wrong. 50% of deaths are under 70).
2. He implies letting old people die is ok (wrong. It's evil.)
3. He implies if we stop the self-isolation it will save the economy. (Wrong. It won't. The economy will still collapse. But with 2 million extra graves.)
I totally agree with your OP.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Mariana
(14,854 posts)jorgevlorgan
(8,287 posts)pandr32
(11,578 posts)Well said, and it needed to be said!
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)colorado_ufo
(5,733 posts)the elderly runs very deep and long. We do not think of them as the keepers of history, as Native Americans do, or as those who are meant to be respected and elevated as in Asia. They are somehow perceived collectively to be useless, weak, and feeble-minded. This simply isn't true!
It took quite a long time to acquire this much knowledge and life experience. And there is no substitute for experience.
Think twice before discarding us older Americans.
We know s***.
mcar
(42,300 posts)More grandparents raising their grandchildren | PBS NewsHour
In my county, there are many grandparents raising the grands, or great-grands.
Sunsky
(1,737 posts)I am livid. I can't believe people can be so callous. My mom started having children late, she's now in her 70s. She is so precious to our family. Older adults are not dispensable. Every life is precious. How dare they?
I told Mom, do not go out unless it's an emergency. Everything she needs I or my siblings will supply because these selfish bastards will not decide her fate.
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)If 50% of the deaths are younger than 70 (a larger group) and 50% of the deaths are people over 70 (a smaller group)... that seems a bit imbalanced to me and it clearly suggests that older adults are at a much higher risk of death. Or less-likely to recover.
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Aussie105
(5,377 posts)and all his other miscreants in politics?
How old is Trump?
Asking on behalf of a virus.
Rorey
(8,445 posts)Yeah, I don't think I ever heard 45 mention "senior citizens", probably because he doesn't want to admit that he is one.
Mickju
(1,800 posts)Im 76 with heart failure, my sister is 80, my brother is 77 and in hospice care and all of my 1st cousins are in their 70s and 80s. So we are all supposed to die?
Cha
(297,136 posts)it's just as hard to lose them no matter how old they are.
I think a lot of us have been there.
Chemisse
(30,808 posts)I am 65 and I want my children and grandchildren to have full healthy lives as I have so far. I'd much rather worry about me than about them.
That said, I am disgusted by the attitude that it's no big deal since it's just old people who will die, and I am absolutely horrified by the emerging political attitude that the elderly should be sacrificed for the economy!
Hav
(5,969 posts)Someone mentioned triage which I suppose is an unfortunate necessity when we are faced with limited resources. But this is an at best nonchalant attitude purely out of economic interests or convenience (Screw it, I'm going to the pub/beach/whatever).
Even if you believed that your young age minimizes your risks (that in itself is foolish even if it were true), many still have older parents/relatives in that age group who additionally might also be diabetics, a common condition that increases your risk. I cannot grasp that one wouldn't care about them.
greatauntoftriplets
(175,731 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)It doesn't look good for any of them. I can't imagine what the families are going through.
greatauntoftriplets
(175,731 posts)They never wanted anything like this to happen to the kids, grandkids, etc. They lived through the Depression and WW II. Also the 1918 Spanish flu, though they were kids.