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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWill We Ever Live In Bernie Sanders' America?
Its worth pausing and considering what Sen. Bernie Sanders envisioned for America in its totality.
Every single Americans health insurance would be sponsored by the government, and companies like Cigna or Blue Cross Blue Shield would essentially be cut out of the health care business. Prescription costs would be limited to $200 a year.
Having a baby would come with six months of paid parental leave, guaranteed. Public day care, public preschool and public colleges and universities would all be tuition-free. Every public school teacher would make at least $60,000 a year. Student debt would be gone. So would medical debt. Credit reports wouldnt cost a penny, the government would just do it for you. The post office could be your bank.
The minimum wage would be $15 an hour. Your boss couldnt just fire you for no reason because at-will employment would be outlawed. Twenty percent of the countrys labor force would be in a union, and unions in the same industry could bargain together. Large companies would all come under partial employee ownership. Workers would control nearly half the seats on corporate boards.
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https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-drops-out-policy_n_5e8e11ffc5b6091d88c85e5c
LizBeth
(9,952 posts)the $15 an hour with NO help from Sanders. One of the things I hate most about Sanders is his taking ownership of others work. Shameful.
empedocles
(15,751 posts)marked50
(1,366 posts)I heard of him on Thom Hartmann's radio show many years ago. He is someone who helped me focus on what really is important in this regards. To negate his desire to see a $15 wage increase because of some timing issue to a number tied to some other group is beyond the pale. He can take all the credit he wants for that number and I will not condemn him for it.
LizBeth
(9,952 posts)the work in to get us closer to our goal. I negate Sanders ownership of 15 an hour because Sanders does not OWN it. That people that actually put the work in, fought for it, implemented owns that 15 an hour.
demtenjeep
(31,997 posts)LizBeth
(9,952 posts)shown otherwise. Hopefully this will not happen again.
notinkansas
(1,096 posts)Minimum wage has been stuck at $7.25 ? an hour since forever it seems.
I don't recall anyone proposing the $15 minimum prior to Bernie Sanders.
brush
(53,771 posts)Last edited Wed Apr 8, 2020, 09:43 PM - Edit history (1)
problem, and he should know this having lived in this country all his life, is that America will not elect a socialist, not even a democratic socialist (he tacked on the prefix later when he decided to run for president).
Maybe it was his narcissism, or perhaps his naivete, that led him to misread the zeitgeist of the nation which has three generations, his, boomers and genXer who were schooled from their formative years that socialism, communism, Red China, the iron curtain, failed soviet collectives, Khruschev, Brezhnev, the KGB and the Russian missles in Cuba were all toxic. Many in those cohorts still believe that and they number in the millions or voters. After all, just as a blue car is still a car, a democratic socialist, I don't care how you cut it, is still a socialist.
He never had a chance and he misled his followers, like a pied piper, for two presidental cycles into believing the country would elect a socialist.
He never had a chance.
marked50
(1,366 posts)my concept of fairness and justice. Bernie has represented that concept. You can say that his ideas or beliefs were not possible or even appropriate for the times but if it moves just one or more towards that concept then he has succeeded. Sometimes that road is rough and sometimes it will irritate others but if there is a kernel of truth then it has merit. Recognize what is valuable in that endeavor and beware of condemning him for that and by connection those who may believe in such things. It only encourages division where we sure don't need it now. I do not think that he may have reached the heights of achieving the Democratic Nomination but I am sure glad he tried. It gives me hope that these things may be possible, just not now.
brush
(53,771 posts)Maybe when all those in his generation, the boomers and genXers who see socialism as toxic are gone a socialist may get in, but by then Sanders will be gone too.
His attacks on the Democratic establishment are straight out of 60s-era campus radical jargon. He never out grew that by learning to compromise and build coalitions, which is what successful America politics is.
Response to brush (Reply #31)
brush This message was self-deleted by its author.
Chainfire
(17,536 posts)at least in my lifetime. We may be able to move in the right direction if we can win this year. The opposition is too firmly entrenched for any great gains to be made. I am no longer hopeful about not losing more ground.
The first step we have to follow to make real progress is campaign finance reform so that our government is not for sale to the highest bidders. It is obscene how much money it cost to win elections; it rules out honest people being elected. How will you ever get the congress to vote against their own personal self interest?
LiberalArkie
(15,715 posts)Aquaria
(1,076 posts)Not BS.
Also, were better off in. a country where people get shit done, not sit on their ass and grouch and grumble from the back bench.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)America is the drunk uncle of the west, the one all the little girls warn each other about, the one the rest of the family is uncomfortable around because they never know when some crackpot conspiracy theory is going to become the next thing he preaches about, the one that turns violent if you don't have exactly his same extremist views on everything.
In truth, America is the Taliban of the west, in reality. I just prettied it up with the crazy uncle comparison. Nothing good will ever happen in America, because Americans want to stay as conservative as possible and hate anyone who isn't as conservative as the majority here.
That is why it will never happen, in case anyone asks.
FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)My sister is liberal, but the last political thing she's said to me was that, from the people she knew, no one would vote for Sanders.
Cursed are all those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. For they shall surely starve.
Jesus got it wrong. I fixed it.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)I'm seeing a lot of the same. Even people who seemed on the verge of opening their minds, boom, down they shut and refused to even consider Sanders, because the latest trendy thing to do is go more conservative. It comes down to trends among those with the most power to change things and that is really irritating.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,367 posts)Certainly not in the traditional consideration of the term.
A clear majority of the American people are in favor of most of the things progressives are in favor of;
A woman's right to choose, a living wage, the ability to form unions and collectively bargain for wages and benefits, the reduction in war mongering that has dominated this country since WWII, a strong social safety net, universal health care, Police accountability and on and on and on.
Of course, it depends on how you ask these questions, as well. If you say for instance "Are you in favor of abortion?" a larger percentage will say no.
But if you ask "Do you think a woman should be able to determine when and how many children she should have without government interference?" the answer changes dramatically.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)It doesn't work that way and we will never get rid of the electoral college. So, millions of liberals in California get pretty much silenced by 100 Republicans in low pop states with way too much representation. They won't even balance the electoral college out some. Congress will never even touch it.
So, technically, you can say that and be correct, to some degree, but when it comes to how things actually work, it doesn't work that way. It just doesn't. It never will. Nothing ever changes. The more things seem to change, the more they really stay the same. Or get worse. For every single step of progress we make, the Republicans sneak back in and take us back 50 steps.
One state has already banned abortions while this Covid-19 is happening. How many more will try to follow? See? Every step we take, we get knocked on our asses back about 50 steps. They have far too much power compared to our numbers.
So, in the end, it works out to not really mattering how many of us there are. We will always be overpowered, no matter our numbers. The system is set up to keep it that way too. Forget anyone changing the electoral college or minds in the area of the country where I live anyhow. It'll never happen. And I will never meet any of the people you are talking about in person anyhow. I and other red state Democrats, who are actually liberal, will always get blamed when Republicans win and steal* and win some more, because of the shitty people who live around me where I live, always voting Republican. I will never meet any of the liberal people you are talking about. So, it is just a vicious cycle. It won't ever change. So, we will never have Sanders' vision of an America less hateful and more hopeful.
*Add on top of that how Republicans openly break the law and barely get a slap on the wrist and it just compounds the issue. The court said "surgical precision" when talking about the racist gerrymandering for my district. The NCLEG still haven't fixed it. So, now, they openly defy and ignore the courts too.
A HERETIC I AM
(24,367 posts)I merely responded to your point that Americans are conservative;
All I responded to was the underlined assertion, that's all.
As far as the rest of what you wrote just above is concerned, and I don't mean to speak as if you aren't aware, but what you describe IS NOT the default; It happened by deliberate design.
I've read historical perspectives that suggest the conservative "powers that be" so to speak, have known since at least the 60's, and even back to the days of FDR, that Americans, given the free ability to do so, will elect progressive, forward thinking, socially liberal people to office. There are exceptions, of course. There are certain jurisdictions where labeling yourself a "Liberal" is tantamount to political suicide, but what I wrote in the post above still stands, according to most of the polls on the subject I have read about.
Hell, the last time The American people had a viable (what would now be called) Social Democrat run for the presidency, they elected him FOUR FUCKING TIMES! And had he lived, it would have been five, at least. The conservative political machine recognized this trend way back then and THEY forced through the 22nd Amendment because they knew that the people liked what FDR did for the average Joe, and in spite of many of the distasteful things FDR did (Internment of the Japanese Americans, for instance), he was adored by Americans.
Edit: And we just can't have that, now can we?
I understand what you are saying, regarding the way things are, but you must know that this is a result of a concerted effort, going back decades, of the Conservative establishment to rig the system in their favor.
There is absolutely NOTHING stopping liberals and progressives from doing the same thing.
Democrats just stood by and watched while a minority opinion took over the American Political Landscape. They have systematically demonized Unions, they have belittled the skilled worker on one hand, and give false praise on the other, they say they love the family and are all about "family values", but their economic ideology and policies make it increasingly more expensive to actually have one, etc. etc.
To suggest that nothing will ever change, that we can't do that same sort of thing, suggests that Democrats can not play the same game Republicans have been playing for a long time.
I simply say bullshit.
It might look like nothing will change right here and now, but it doesn't have to be that way. We need to do what they did, and start at the local level, beginning with School Boards. Imagine what this country would be like in 30 years if we were able to have an education system like Sweden has for instance, that teaches children independent, critical thinking skills instead of shoving the bullshit "America is the greatest ever" bullshit propaganda and/or the fucking bible down their throats from birth.
This country is the way it is because the system we currently have is extremely profitable for a very small group of people, it always has been, and they have a vested interest in keeping it that way, full stop. But they are by no means unbeatable.
It all reminds me of this graphic, and the sooner the American people get it, the sooner will will evolve toward that elusive "More Perfect Union";
FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)The fact that they will espouse more reasonable ideas in a survey doesn't help at all when they keep voting for evil.
brush
(53,771 posts)things get done when Democrats have controltoo incrementally for some but significant accomplishments nonetheless. When repugs are in charge there are tax cuts for the rich and recessions and depressions, like the one we're in now.
Perhaps the socialists would like to build a grassroots base and run and GET ELECTED to city councils, mayoral offices, state legislatures, gubernatorial office, the Senate and Houseyou know, actually bill a party and party apparatus instead of trying to hijack the Democratic Party, they might have a chance at dispelling the toxic label that most Americans have of them.
marked50
(1,366 posts)Thom has described how FDR did not run on a massive progressive change agenda- he had to be pulled in that direction.
My analysis-- he was driven in that direction by the fear of anoverwhelming desire by society for change; maybe in a "socialist" direction--ie Communism as it existed in Russia or it could go towards Fascism in Europe- neither desirable.
His solution was to eventually enlist the corporatists that radical changes in the system away from oligarchical or autocratic systems would be needed. These changes by FDR were significantly towards our current concepts of socialist societies but no completely. It worked to save the day and save the basic capitalistic system we now have. See my post #19 as a reference
brush
(53,771 posts)have gotten elected. Sanders should've taken lessons from him as a socialist still won't get elected here.
Ever heard of the American Liberty League? Look them up, FDR got many of his programs through by threatening to expose their planned coup, which would have sent many of them to jail.
marked50
(1,366 posts)Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)Women still aren't allowed in the local homeless shelter in my county. And before you think things aren't so bad because women have it easy, children are not allowed either. That is a FAR cry from what Sanders and Sanders' supporter WANT to see happen. It'll never happen.
brush
(53,771 posts)Luciferous
(6,078 posts)mwooldri
(10,303 posts)Plus a mess of private and "not for profit" hospitals and such...
It would probably take something that drastic to get universal healthcare into the USA. Covid-19 is getting on those lines but it would need to be more deadly for most Americans to be clamouring for universal healthcare.
appalachiablue
(41,131 posts)More plus effort
brewens
(13,582 posts)this lockdown. What percentage could afford their hospitalization? Not much higher than zero percent. A lot of people make enough money that I think they can swing it just fine, but I doubt they agree with me. I met my deductible and out of pocket three years in-a-row awhile back and I paid it off, but it screwed me.
A big part of the reason they are so desperate to just make people go back to work is they know if it's too bad, the shit will hit the fan and stay hit. I'm convinced the 1% world wide could just write a check to cover everything and still be incredibly wealthy, just a little closer to the pack. That's unacceptable to them.
Response to LiberalArkie (Original post)
Post removed
dawg day
(7,947 posts)"bamboozled into voting for the interests of the billionaires and against their own interests by a skilled and trained propaganda machine."
Please. Feel free to mourn and grieve and all that, but if you're talking about the vast majority of people who did not vote for Sanders--but perhaps I have misinterpreted and you are not actually insulting us.
TwilightZone
(25,468 posts)The majority of voters in 2016 voted for Hillary Clinton in both the primaries and in the general election.
The majority of voters in 2020 voted for Joe Biden in the primaries.
If you're talking about Trump, "the majority of voters" is inaccurate.
dawg day
(7,947 posts)But he isn't going to be dictator. He can't make most of that happen, and he couldn't make it happen if he got elected president.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)He wouldn't have been able to get the stuff done that a lot of us wanted, because he would be dealing with a Congress that leans more conservative even when Democrats take the majority on one side or the other, because big tent and all that.
brush
(53,771 posts)You must know this.
sheshe2
(83,748 posts)0. Will We Ever Live In Bernie Sanders' America?
Its worth pausing and considering what Sen. Bernie Sanders envisioned for America in its totality.
Bernie's' America? It is not his America and you diminish every one that has fought for all these issues for decades.
A Brief History of Medicare for All
medicareworld.com/medicare-education/history-medicare-for-all/
The idea of Medicare for All has been around for nearly 100 years under several different names. Heres a brief history of the way the legislation for a single-payer healthcare system has evolved over the past century.
snip
The future
2003: Representative John Conyers introduced the Expanded and Improved Medicare for All Act, a bill that would create a single-payer healthcare system. The bill was mostly ignored by Democrats and Republicans alike, but Conyers reintroduced the bill to Congress every single session until he retired in December 2017.
2009: When Barack Obama took office, he had intentions of passing a public option, which would allow people to buy into Medicare or a Medicare-type system. However, he could not get enough Democrats and Republicans on board, and compromised with the Affordable Care Act.
https://medicareworld.com/medicare-education/history-medicare-for-all/
LiberalArkie
(15,715 posts)United States should be like. As much as people he despise Sanders, what party would his cabinet be from? Do you think he would have any Republicans in his cabinet?
He would not have lasted long in the office, I do not think Biden will either. They are just too old. I am 72 and I am too old for anything. I was really hoping that someone in their 30's or 40's would be nominated, but I don't think that can happen until everyone in the party that is 60 and above have died off. I think the young have some good ideas.
TwilightZone
(25,468 posts)His supporters routinely insist that he's the only one who has addressed anything even remotely progressive ever. It's nonsense.
On Medicare for All, for example, he literally said he wrote the damn bill, when his bill was actually a parallel bill to one John Conyers had introduced 14 years prior and every year since. And, yet, he and his supporters expect him to get the credit.
Your assertion that Biden won't last long in office says more about you than it does Biden or the party. It's rather enlightening, frankly.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)He's been inspirational for me
TexasTowelie
(112,144 posts)There are good things that a government can do and unfortunately there are also plenty of bad things that a government can do. Government is not our savior and I don't want them involved in every facet of my life.
qwlauren35
(6,148 posts)If the tax rate goes up to 50%.
Right now, with COVID-19, the US is printing fake money to save Trump's friends, and give a few pennies to the common man.
You can't convince anyone to keep printing fake money, so it would have to come from somewhere.
theaocp
(4,236 posts)We negotiate with known bad-faith actors from a position of conciliation and get treated as such. Its gross.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Marrah_Goodman
(1,586 posts)Remember when everyone despised Hillary and anyone who supported her? I do, I was driven off this board being called a PUMA every five damn seconds even though I still voted for Obama.
Remember when everyone hated Bernie for coming in second and treated his supporters like shit? I do.
And now again...the hate pours out at the number 2 choice, driving wedges in our progressive community.
How about instead you say, good fight and we hope you keep fighting for us in the Senate instead? Then perhaps his supporters would have an easier time coming to support Biden instead of just voting for him because it is against Trump.
Fuck it, those of you who hate and spew venom will never change.
MarrahG
empedocles
(15,751 posts)anger, false accusations, false claims, nasty campaign staff, blame shifting, etc., etc. - and we all know, who that was.
Please don't try and blame the supporters of the other 23.
TwilightZone
(25,468 posts)The OP says in a response that Biden won't last long in office. That's up there with pretty much anything anyone has said about Sanders then or now.
Let's not pretend that this is a one-way street. Sanders supporters have been more than willing to trash many of the other candidates, from Klobuchar and Buttigieg to Biden and Warren, from thinly-veiled homophobia to pushing debunked fake videos about dementia.
Sanders is not unique in being the target of criticism, nor are his supporters the first to experience their candidate facing said criticism, warranted or otherwise. Welcome to politics. It isn't for the meek.
Azathoth
(4,607 posts)Revolutions are messy and they lead to counterrevolutions. What's changed quickly can be changed back just as quick. The freedom of the Weimar Republic can become the tyranny of the Third Reich overnight.
Think back to Don't Ask Don't Tell. I remember DUers hysterically attacking Obama for not immediately overriding it with an executive order. They trashed him for two years over it. Does anyone think that executive order would have lasted a week after Trump took office?
It's much harder to unravel incremental changes that have been made with deliberation by the legislature and layered one atop the other like bricks. No one change is radical enough to spark a "pro life" counter-revolution, and the public more quickly comes to see each change as being the new normal.
The journey is not a great leap forward but a sequence of small steps. We just need to make sure we keep taking those steps in the right direction.
gulliver
(13,180 posts)He did a lot for the vision, but he held on too long when it needed another messenger.