''When they draw blood from COVID patients, it clots in the tubes.''

[Donkees]

April 24, 2020

Excerpt:

Around the world, doctors caring for COVID-19 patients have been trying to make sense of the same thing. When they draw blood from COVID patients, it clots in the tubes. When nurses insert catheters for kidney dialysis and IV lines to draw blood, the tubes quickly become clogged with clots.

“Patients are making clots all over the place,” says Adam Cuker, MD, a hematologist and associate professor of medicine at the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania. “That’s making management of these patients very challenging.”

In addition to the well-known breathing problems, blood clots are a significant danger for COVID-19 patients. Clots are causing patients with COVID to have heart attacks and strokes; form strange rashes on their skin; and get red, swollen wounds that look like frostbite on their fingers and toes. On autopsy, the small vessels of the lungs and bowels, liver, and kidneys of COVID patients are choked with clots.

“This is actually a disease of the endothelium,” he says.

Mehra says the infection starts in the lungs because breathing is the easiest way for the virus to enter the body. Once it infects the lung cells and begins to destroy them, it travels into the bloodstream. There, it infects endothelial cells, causing endotheliitis.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200424/blood-clots-are-another-dangerous-covid-19-mystery

[luvallpeeps]

1. that is scary as hell! n/t

[Demsrule86]

46. My brother was rushed to the hospital with a huge blood clot in his lungs...caused damage to his

heart but he survived.

[citizen blues]

84. It is scary as hell!

But it also explains why some are being found dead in their homes: pulmonary embolism, heart attack or stroke.

[Rorey]

2. Fascinating

As I've said before, if I have to get this thing, I want to put it off as long as possible so that more is known about it.

[no_hypocrisy]

3. Isn't that the medical phenomenon when snake venom enters your body?

https://futurism.com/watch-snake-venom-blood

[Volaris]

9. Depends on the snake from what I understand. Some contain clotting agents.,

others, necrotizing or neuro-muscular agents.

[MontanaFarmer]

12. Same concept except in reverse.

Snake venom from most rattlesnakes in the US is hemotoxic, you're correct. Its function is to disable the clotting function, causing hemorrhagic blood loss and the destruction of red. So far in this thread we've now established that nobody wants covid or to be bitten by a snake (also can't be cured by mainlining lysol)!

[localroger]

14. Trump Next Week:

If you get COVID-19, you can cure it by letting a rattlesnake bite you to cancel out its effects.

[MontanaFarmer]

18. Lmao.

[luvallpeeps]

35. I can just see Fauci

covering his face, and Birx hanging herself with her scarf now.

[BrightKnight]

50. You need to refine the snake oil first. nt

[Yavin4]

53. Christian snake handlers: "HaHa! Told y'all!" n/t

[keithbvadu2]

70. they bring out the snakes.

traveling preacher goes around to back country churches making supper and a little money.
they invite him to stay for supper.
then they invite him for further services.
what services? he asks.
they bring out the snakes.

he asks where the back door is.

don't have one.

reckon where they want one?

[Meowmee]

66. 😹😳

I am on blood thinners after my second dvt last fall. Maybe it is helping me fight covid / pneumonia.

[samnsara]

4. that does it.. im never going out... :(

[zentrum]

7. Same here! It comes to that.

[luvallpeeps]

5. Not to sound like the donald here, but

I wonder if blood thinner could help. Aspirin even. I was also reading where smokers are being infected less. Very counter-intuitive because we're thinking this is a disease that affects the lungs. Wow.[link:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/23/smokers-four-times-less-likely-contract-covid-19-prompting-nicotine/|

[TheBlackAdder]

15. Articles a few days back-thinners weren't successful in treating and COVID affected those on them.

[BComplex]

43. True that, but there is a drug they give stroke victims that was working for a doctor in Australia

that he wrote an article on for some publication. He said the drug, used to treat stroke victims that were caused by blood clots, had proven useful in several of his almost dead patients. It's a drug that evidently breaks up blood clots.

[TheBlackAdder]

49. Unless it's in a premiere trade journal, I have doubts on most articles-many peer reviews are bought

[Ilsa]

56. I've heard they were using tPA (Tissue plasminogen activator)

to encourage clot breakdown in patients with clotting problems or early signs of stroke. I can't remember the source. Perhaps an overseas news outlet.

[Mendocino]

73. I had a stroke

a number of years back. I was given tPA (clot busters). I then radically changed my diet afterwards, to vegan. My markers are now far above normal expectations.

My guess is that the SAD (standard american diet) lends it self to poor health in general IMHO.

[underpants]

17. Okay I read that. Smokers aren't less likely to get it - it may be nicotine

First of all, studies are being released (not necessarily published) with alarming speed right now.

Second, it’s not smoking that appears to have the effect it’s a body dealing with nicotine. Two different things. The article says that the idea is to introduce nicotine through a patch. From everything I’ve read smokers who get the virus are 3 times as likely to die. This was the final coffin nail in my hand that I decided to get rid of. Today is day 20 without a cigarette.

[Oppaloopa]

19. Congratulations keep up the good work.

[Lonestarblue]

21. Good for you! Hang in there.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

22. Congrats underpants! It's difficult in the beginning, but keep at it. 😊

[underpants]

25. 🤭

Can’t say I miss it much. Early mornings with coffee and about 8ish PM seem to be when I just want to step outside for a smoke. No real nic fits due to the patch. I step outside as breath in an Altoid. Other them that I really don’t even think about it.

Odd how it was such a part of my life for so many years.

[JudyM]

59. Ooh that's great that you're not struggling too badly!

Way to go, underpants!

[hatrack]

24. You'll enjoy getting your sense of taste back!

Of course, that could potentially lead to other issues down the road - but congratulations!

[underpants]

26. No bread no circus

I’m really watching what I eat. Cut out bread almost completely. Two drinks of booze in a month.

Getting ready to go for a run ...after I do my 100 sit-up type thingies.

[hatrack]

32. Yoga for me this PM (or biking, depending on weather) - onward!!

[underpants]

41. Yes!

[luvallpeeps]

37. I didn't read it through,

I sent it to my girlfriend who quit smoking about 6 mos. ago. I have some catch up to do.

[BComplex]

44. That's awesome! Congratulations! I quit 12 years ago, and I'm SO glad I'm not smoking.

It takes some time to adjust to it, but I always found that drinking REALLY COLD WATER and deep breathing really helped get past a bad craving. Besides, water is good, ok?

[ooky]

51. Congrats. I quit 36 years ago after trying and failing several times. The secret

for me was to never pick up another one thinking "I'll just smoke this one". Best of luck to you.

[Woodwizard]

74. Great!

Been 19 years for me don't miss it a bit. Quit after I started cycling a lot, stayed off and still cycle.

[dixiegrrrrl]

88. Good on you!!!

If you have made it that far, you are on a good path.

[Mike 03]

29. I've wondered this too.

I mean, taking something like aspirin prophylactically, to try to prevent this clotting process from starting in the first instance.

Doctors are using heparin in patients with mixed results, because some patients are bleeding into their abdomens.
They are also using some emergency protocol used on stroke patients (maybe tPA).

[woodsprite]

33. I imagine it's similar to DIC

Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation. A lot of times that it manifests is when there has been an infection. If they can find and treat the underlying cause, they stand a chance of fixing it. Haemopheliacs, cancer patients, and diabetics make up a good portion of those affected.

My mom died from that. The dr explained that even though they had her on blood thinners to try to manage the clotting until they could find out what was causing it, the thinner would break up the clots but those cells were not usable by the body again. Eventually her body was being overwhelmed and the only thing keeping her alive was the constant plasma drip and transfusions, and they were no closer to finding out what caused it. We (my mom, brother, and myself) could elect to stop the transfusions and wait for complete organ failure, or stop the transfusions and she could say her last goodbyes to the family and grandkids. She opted to stop and visit with the grandkids. She lasted not quite 24 hrs.

[luvallpeeps]

40. Wow

Thank God she could say good bye. My brother died from vCJD. The neurologist suggested it was from deer meat. My brother was a bow hunter back 15 years before this. It can kill you all those years later. Talk about gut wrenching.** Variant Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease (vCJD) is a type of brain disease within the transmissible spongiform encephalopathy family. Symptoms include psychiatric problems, behavioral changes, and painful sensations. The length of time between exposure and the development of symptoms is unclear but is believed to be years. It happened in 2013. I'm still not over it.

[BComplex]

45. I'm so sorry for your loss, luvallpeeps. That is so tragic.

Your brother was lucky to have you, as you obviously cared deeply for him.

[Baltimike]

47. Taking aspirin while you have a fever can kill you...it causes Reye's syndrome. nt

or it can cause Reye's syndrome.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/reyes-syndrome/symptoms-causes/syc-20377255

[Amaryllis]

60. Maybe if they drank paint thinner it would work. ESpecially if they mixed it with lysol first.

[Silver Gaia]

6. Fascinating article.

And terrifying!

[SammyWinstonJack]

8. Just like the flu...right Deplorables?

[yardwork]

11. Rush Limbaugh says it's just the common cold.

[Blue_true]

75. That thing is NOT the Flu. Those idiots need to get a clue. nt

[octoberlib]

10. Now this is interesting .from the article

He believes something worth trying might be to give patients drugs to support the endothelium, like ACE inhibitors and statins, along with anti-inflammatory drugs to tackle the cytokine storm, early in the course of the disease, but more research is needed to know for sure.

Remember the ACE inhibitor , NSAID hysteria caused by a couple Lancet articles? This doctor is saying something completely different.

[KPN]

16. Yes, he is. Noticed that too. Confusing to

say the least.

[MH1]

57. Too much conflicting info right now. Best is to stay as safe as possible for months ...

until there is more consensus in the medical and scientific community and we can get the "wheat" without the "chaff".

[Blue_true]

76. Yep. No need to be a canary in a coal mine. nt

[LeftInTX]

67. The NSAID stuff was really "out there"

[underpants]

13. Strokes - I was wondering but the article addresses that

I’m as far as you can be from a doctor but having read several stories about blood clots in fairly young people it came to mind.

[Frustratedlady]

20. I heard an interview on MSNBC or CNN this week where a doctor was removing a blood clot

and watched as small clots formed all around it. I don't know the procedure, but it appeared they could locate the clot and suction it in some way, but it was visible to the surgeon as a white glob. I assumed it was some type of scope.

This virus seems to have all the bases covered. Even Mother Nature couldn't come up with all the damage it does. I can't imagine anyone can live through an attack of it.

[Blue_true]

77. No, Mother Nature CAN come up with the damage it does and did.

Covid19 is a beast of Nature.

[Mike 03]

23. Really helpful article.

Explains a lot.

He says this theory of infection explains some things that doctors have been trying to puzzle out.

For example, certain conditions like high blood pressure, diabetes, and heart disease stress the endothelium. It’s no surprise, then, that people who have these conditions are also the ones who get the sickest when they catch COVID-19.

It also helps to explain why patients have such low oxygen in their blood, but their lungs may not be as stiff as they typically are in patients who have respiratory distress with pneumonia.

Mehra explains that one consequence of endotheliitis is that blood vessels can’t constrict the way they normally would. Typically, when a part of the lung becomes damaged, tiny blood vessels in that area close off so that blood will flow to a part of the lung that’s still working, where it can collect oxygen. This system protects the body from a sudden drop in oxygen, and it appears to break down in patients with severe COVID-19 infections. Mehra believes the infection of the endothelium is to blame.

Thank you for finding this.

[certainot]

27. glyphosphate from roundup may be a factor in that

https://jennifermargulis.net/glyphosate-and-covid-19-connection/?fbclid=IwAR2QeOg8lP_aKsQQ0JAer7xt2v10xCLPB9nZeAPEOOJZi_QxOe0ws0mz9Ik

for eg.......

Many of these diseases are included in the plots in the paper by Swanson et al.

Is this all just coincidence? I don’t think so. Instead, I strongly suspect that the degree to which a person is susceptible to COVID-19 is proportional to the degree to which they have been exposed to glyphosate. Eating a certified organic diet and staying away from major highways may be among the best tools for protection from an acute reaction to COVID-19.

[dalton99a]

28. COVID-19 is not your grandfather's flu.

[CaptYossarian]

71. Some of the first 18 COVIDs were though.

Just the even-numbered ones. And the prime numbered ones weren't even lethal until 19. Go figure.

[AllaN01Bear]

30. i have heard that laying people on their stomach helps breathing. anyone else heard this ?

[wryter2000]

36. I've heard that, too

I’m not a medical person and don’t know if the finding holds up.

[Mike 03]

38. Yes! Also left and right-side rotation. Check out this thread (and the study it refers to)

https://www.democraticunderground.com/114223181

Study: The importance of proning in COVID-19 patients (x-posted from GD)

Early Self-Proning in Awake, Non-intubated Patients in the Emergency Department: A Single
ED’s Experience during the COVID-19 Pandemic

Nicholas D. Caputo MD, MSc1
, Reuben J. Strayer MD2
, Richard Levitan MD3
1Department of Emergency Medicine, NYC H+H/Lincoln, Bronx, NY
2Department of Emergency Medicine, Maimonides Medical Center, Brooklyn, NY
3Department of Emergency Medicine, Littleton Regional Health, Littleton, NH

Paper made available for free through the Wiley Online Coronavirus Library portal.

Objective: Prolonged and unaddressed hypoxia can lead to poor patient outcomes. Proning has
become a standard treatment in the management of patients with ARDS who have difficulty
achieving adequate oxygen saturation. The purpose of this study was to describe the use of early
proning of awake, non-intubated patients in the emergency department (ED) during the COVID-19
pandemic.

SNIP

Results: Fifty patients were included. Overall, the median SpO2 at triage was 80% (IQR 69 to 85).
After application of supplemental oxygen was given to patients on room air it was 84% (IQR 75 to
90). After 5 minutes of proning was added SpO2 improved to 94% (IQR 90 to 95). Comparison of the
pre- to post-median by the Wilcoxon Rank-sum test yielded P=0.001. Thirteen patients (24%) failed
to improve or maintain their oxygen saturations and required endotracheal intubation within 24
hours of arrival to the ED.

Conclusion: Awake early self-proning in the emergency department demonstrated improved oxygen
saturation in our COVID-19 positive patients. Further studies are needed to support causality and
determine the effect of proning on disease severity and mortality

more at thread link

[MoonRiver]

39. Yes, I believe Sanjay Gupta had a segment on that weeks ago.

It was a very interesting concept, and so easy as a treatment.

[Pobeka]

63. Yes. Obese patients laid face down on tables designed for pregnant women.

Takes the belly fat pressure off the lungs and allows better breathing. What I remember is they felt this meant many patients wouldn't have to be ventilated. Can't remember where I heard/read it, but I definitely remember the part about the tables designed for pregnant women being used for obese patients.

[LeftInTX]

68. It's really an old school treatment that's been around for a very long time.

For Covid it seems to be the most effective for younger adults without comorbid features.

My mom did it to me when I had pneumonia in 1963. She was a nurse.

Just one example. I'm sure there are hundreds out there. Also percussion is often used with these techniques.
https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/postural+drainage

[ancianita]

89. Yes. I'd never heard the term "proning" before, and while looking it up, found this.

[NoMoreRepugs]

31. Doctor RUMP will probably advise drinking V8 to thin your blood.

[uponit7771]

42. +1, that's only after he sticks a couple of million into makers of V8 through ghost investors.

[Mendocino]

83. His Doctors

mash up veggies with potatoes to get some vitamins and anti-oxidants into him like a 3 year old.

[mysteryowl]

34. Sounds like a protective action the body is taking

I do wonder why it took so long to notice this issue? Thousands of cases in many countries and they never talked about this clotting issue.

Is this a mutation of the virus?

I am confident our scientists all over the world are working on learning about this virus.

[Donkees]

55. ''In hindsight, there were hints blood problems had been an issue in China and Italy as well, ... ''

April 22, 2020

In hindsight, there were hints blood problems had been an issue in China and Italy as well, but it was more of a footnote in studies and on information-sharing calls that had focused on the disease’s destruction of the lungs.

“It crept up on us. We weren’t hearing a tremendous amount about this internationally,” said Greg Piazza, a cardiovascular specialist at Brigham and Women’s who has begun a study of bleeding complications of covid-19.

Helen W. Boucher, an infectious-disease specialist at Tufts Medical Center, said there’s no reason to think anything is different about the virus in the United States. More likely, she said, the problem was more obvious to American doctors because of the unique demographics of U.S. patients, including large percentages with heart disease and obesity that make them more vulnerable to the ravages of blood clots. She also noted small but important differences in the monitoring and treatment of patients in ICUs in this country that would make clots easier to detect.

“Part of this is by virtue of the fact that we have such incredible intensive care facilities,” she said.

Early data from China on a sample of 183 patients showed more than 70 percent of patients who died of covid-19 had small clots develop throughout their bloodstream. Although acute respiratory distress syndrome still appears to be the leading cause of death in covid-19 patients, blood complications are not far behind, said Behnood Bikdeli, a fourth-year fellow at Columbia University Irving Medical Center, who helped anchor a paper about the blood clots in the Journal of The American College of Cardiology.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/22/coronavirus-blood-clots/

[AntiFascist]

61. Something like this may have been studied back in 2014 in relation to SARS and MERS...

with a rather shocking call for further studies...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4267971/

...

The dysregulation of these coagulation/anti‐coagulation cascades can result in worsening end‐stage lung disease conditions, resulting in death.

...

The twenty‐first century has demonstrated that zoonotic events will continue to introduce coronaviruses and other viruses into the human population, and that these viruses have the potential to spread rapidly, cause significant disease in communities and disrupt the global economy. An emerging theme is the connectivity between virus infection, complement and coagulation cascade activation, pro‐inflammatory and profibrotic cytokine responses and disease severity. More studies are needed to unravel the complex interactions between these pathways that can interact to promote or dysregulate wound recovery after life‐threatening respiratory virus infection.

...

This could also explain why COVID-19 was being studied in a lab, as a newly discovered "emerging coronavirus".

[LAS14]

48. Oh, terrific. Just terrific. Add this to the list:

Asymptomatic transmission.
Comorbidity compromise.
Unknown degree of protection after infection.
Unusual difficulties in managing ventilation.

I'm sure there are others? Can you think of them?

tia
las

[ooky]

52. Man, this virus certainly has a game plan for being overwhelmingly destructive. nt

[Blue_true]

78. Shows what Nature has in store for us if we keep being dumbasses. nt

[Dan]

54. Since I am old, am thinking

That the more I hear about this virus, the effects, etc.,

That if I end up getting this thing, I am going to shoot it with a gun.

[Blue_true]

79. Stop that. Just stay safe. nt

[Midnight Writer]

58. Sounds like Andromeda Strain. I think they beat that by altering the Ph levels in the body.

[bluescribbler]

62. Scary shit!

Stay home. Stay Safe. Wash your hands.

[BobTheSubgenius]

64. This information squares completely with other articles I have read.

My question is...this seems like a VERY obvious and horrifying symptom, one that would presumably be observed in the first smattering of hospitalized patients. Why has it taken until now to be either noticed or reported?

[meadowlander]

69. One theory I saw was that the earlier patient were older

and tended to die from pneumonia or heart attack because they had weaker respiratory systems. When younger patients get it they survive the pneumonia/heart symptoms long enough for the blood clotting issues to emerge.

[BigmanPigman]

80. I read that article last night and it makes sense to me too.

[Happy Hoosier]

65. I wonder if blood thinners would help. NT

[cstanleytech]

90. If I recall they cannot break up the existing clots.

Now if its started sooner they could perhaps help with reducing the number of clots but to do that they need to be able to diagnose and treat those that become infected faster and with Trump and the Republicans both in the House and Senate as well at the State government level actively working to hinder that its going to be difficult to do.

[keithbvadu2]

72. Young and middle-aged people, barely sick with covid-19, are dying from strokes

Young and middle-aged people, barely sick with covid-19, are dying from strokes

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10142479131

[Jamastiene]

81. Dayum, Nature, you so scary.

Stephen King and all of the other horror writers who ever wrote apocalyptic end of the world stories based on some infection or disease were all just playing. All of them are child's play compared to this nasty ass virus.

I wish we could throw Trump into a volcano and make it stop, but real life is going to require real doctors and real researchers to come up with a better way to fight this stuff.

I know they like to tout aspirin as God's holy drug. Is that helping at all? What, if anything, will even begin to fight it?

Can we throw Trump into a volcano anyhow?

[jimlup]

82. That is fucking scary ... we have to find a way out

[tclambert]

85. Sounds like The Andromeda Strain.

Believe that killed by causing clotting all over. It was not cured by drinking disinfectant either.

[CousinIT]

86. Next, Trump will be suggesting they inject laxative into their veins to thin out the blood

and remove 'constipation'.

Pfft.

[CousinIT]

87. How does coronavirus kill? Clinicians trace a ferocious rampage through the body, from brain to toe

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/04/how-does-coronavirus-kill-clinicians-trace-ferocious-rampage-through-body-brain-toes

. . .“The disease can attack almost anything in the body with devastating consequences,” says cardiologist Harlan Krumholz of Yale University and Yale-New Haven Hospital, who is leading multiple efforts to gather clinical data on COVID-19. “Its ferocity is breathtaking and humbling.”

Understanding the rampage could help the doctors on the front lines treat the fraction of infected people who become desperately and sometimes mysteriously ill. Does a dangerous, newly observed tendency to blood clotting transform some mild cases into life-threatening emergencies? Is an overzealous immune response behind the worst cases, suggesting treatment with immune-suppressing drugs could help? What explains the startlingly low blood oxygen that some physicians are reporting in patients who nonetheless are not gasping for breath? “Taking a systems approach may be beneficial as we start thinking about therapies,” says Nilam Mangalmurti, a pulmonary intensivist at the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania (HUP). . . .

[Jimbo S]

91. For the first time, this thing worries me

I worried about others getting it, so I practice safe habits so I don't unknowingly pass to someone else. But all this time, never concerned for myself. I don't live in a hot spot and the statistics have shown my demographic fatality is a small percentage. But the news the last couple of days is a game changer.