General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCalifornia's blackouts present an example of what not to do
<The cause of Californias problem was simple: There wasnt enough electricity to meet everyones needs. With more people staying indoors to avoid the coronavirus and a heat wave sweeping the region, electricity demand spiked.
Right now, California relies on wind and solar power for roughly a third of its electricity. Just when people needed electricity the most, the sun stopped shining, the wind stopped blowing and over 1,200 megawatts of electricity suddenly became unavailable. Admittedly, some of this shortage was due to an unexpected malfunction in some natural gas plants, but much of it was from wind and solar going M.I.A.
Since the sun sets each day, this was expected for solar power. Every night, the disappearing sun takes with it thousands of megawatts of electricity, and its a problem that solar plants in California have had for years. Of course, the state has always been able to force other plants to ramp up production quickly to compensate. Its an expensive strain on the entire system, but it gets consumers through the night. And, in this case, the wind that usually blows through the night simply stopped blowing, removing 1,000 megawatts of electricity enough to power nearly a million homes.
Heres the rub: Neither the setting sun nor the calm weather would have been a problem if the state had had sufficient backup power. Wind and solar power, because they depend on the weather, must be backed up by reliable power sources. However, California has spent years closing the very plants capable of backing up and accommodating this variability.
In 2013, California closed a nuclear plant that generated over 2,000 megawatts of emissions-free electricity. This is enough power that, were the plant still running today, the recent blackout wouldnt have happened. In the same time span, California lost over 6,000 megawatts of natural gas-fired electricity over four times the shortfall that triggered the blackout. Natural gas plants are unique in their importance to the modern grid in that they can alter electricity generation quickly to accommodate fluctuations in wind and solar energy output.
California regulators are doubling down on these closures instead of wisely understanding that, without reliable backup power, wind and solar are a liability for a stable grid. Theyre going to close the states last remaining nuclear power plant in 2025, taking even more reliable, emissions-free power out of the equation.>
https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/514955-californias-blackouts-present-an-example-of-what-not-to-do
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,848 posts)No one seems willing to discuss that these days.
The Corona virus at its worst only seems to kill about 1% of those it infects. That's not enough to lower the overall population.
I sometimes wonder just what it will take.
JI7
(89,247 posts)BamaRefugee
(3,483 posts)We can motivate them by telling them that 72 virgins await them in Heaven.
72 being symbolic of the perfect temperature that they will let other Californians enjoy their lives in, by their blessed martyrdom.
"When the temp gets high, We choose to die"
from a fellow sweltering Californian.
Hekate
(90,645 posts)I mean, really. Our population is approximately that of Canada. I think we can handle this intelligently. Gov Newsom is multitasking as fast as he can, and surely he is delegating. Even the LA Times called him nimble in the face of a perfect storm of crises.
Nonetheless, God help us all. I mean it.
BamaRefugee
(3,483 posts)ALEC, among other things.
That Missouri goober can just fuck right off telling Californians what to do.
https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Show-Me_Institute
Hekate
(90,645 posts)JI7
(89,247 posts)former9thward
(31,981 posts)coti
(4,612 posts)And use solar and wind even more. Build pumped hydro and other storage solutions.
SophieJean
(83 posts)I thought it had a right-wing stench but too hot and tired to look it up. Did the author bother to mention climate change, because CA is being overwhelmed by devastating changes in climate patterns. I grew up here and the "weather" has definitely upended. Blaming solar or wind power for not providing adequate power during heat waves is ludicrous. Maybe he should mention PG&E, which has screwed this state long enough. The Hill often pushes right-wing "opinions," and it's obvious that continuing to eviscerate the earth for oil and gas profits is the author's mo. Maybe he has a financial stake in nuclear power as well-there are safety reasons for shutting down aging nuclear power plants in CA. Fuck this Asshole. They would just love to turn CA red.
JI7
(89,247 posts)I said they were not enough to provide for how much energy is needed. Nuclear can help with this and because it is clean energy it helps in dealing with Climate Change.
BamaRefugee
(3,483 posts)On top of that, no matter how clean we get, the prevailing winds dump the Far Easts pollution on top of us every day.
Well figure it out.
Thats what we do in California.
JI7
(89,247 posts)that can be provided for everyone in the state . It helps in dealing with climate change.
Miguelito Loveless
(4,460 posts)Needed to create the massive amount of concrete and steel needed to build a reactor, plus all the emissions required to mine/process/refine uranium.
former9thward
(31,981 posts)They do.
Miguelito Loveless
(4,460 posts)then produce power for 25-30 Years.
With nuclear, you have to keep mining and refining fuel.
Also, wind, solar, and hydro are the only generating tech were fuel delivers itself.
crickets
(25,962 posts)Earthquakes and nuclear power plants do not mix. Also, two more words no one has brought up yet: radioactive waste. People can dress it up in fancy language and talk about responsible handling and storage methods all they like, but the brutal truth is that the only way to get rid of it is to dump it somewhere. It's so dangerous people are still trying to figure out how to label it so those who stumble upon it thousands of years from now will understand the symbols and know to stay away. Of course, animals can't read.
It's hideously expensive to dig holes deep enough. Once the containers start leaking, and they will, how deep is deep enough? Then there are the idiots who want to dump it in the ocean, and did for a time... 🤦♀️
Nope.
👍
In the meantime, I'm sorry you're all going through this.
BamaRefugee
(3,483 posts)that field I can't see it coming back.
judeling
(1,086 posts)plenty of capacity elsewhere just no way to get it to cali.
Just really hard to make nuclear economical.
JI7
(89,247 posts)former9thward
(31,981 posts)And low electrical bills.
NNadir
(33,512 posts)...electricity in the world, using 1950's and 1960's technology.
That, is a fact.
It's really, really, really hard to believe that what has already happened is impossible.
It is also a fact that the highest electricity prices in the world belong to that off shore oil and gas drilling hellhole Denmark, followed closely be Germany.
One really, really, really has to make stuff up to consider that nuclear plants cannot be built economically. Of course, it would be really really, really worthwhile to consider that six to seven million people die each year from air pollution and no one has died from a radiation leak at a nuclear power plant for decades in this country and yet nuclear power plants are required all kinds of systems to make them "safe," in the minds of people who have never opened an engineering text, or even taken a science course in their lives.
That's also the fact.
Facts matter.
The Wizard
(12,541 posts)Smoke from fires blocking the Sun.
Igel
(35,300 posts)Klaralven
(7,510 posts)You whack the top off a mountain and build a reservoir at the top and the bottom. During the day you pump water up. During the night you run hydroelectric generators. It's the most economical form of short term energy storage.
NNadir
(33,512 posts)I'm impressed.
I personally oppose all gas plants, coal all wind farms, and most free standing solar facilities, but I'm a huge fan of nuclear power.