Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 09:54 AM Sep 2020

A simple observation about that dreaded attitude called "overconfidence"

Overconfidence can lead to under performing, sure. It is a serious threat in cases where fierce motivation is lacking. When you aren't enthusiastic about giving it your all to begin with, the belief that you don't really need to can be disastrous. That is not us. That is not now.

Think back two years. Fervent anti-Trump, anti-Republican organizing had been ongoing since November 2016. We all sensed a Blue Wave building. We worked for it, we believed in it, and truth be told, we expected it to happen. And it did. Sure we understood that nothing is in the bag until it is in the bag. We weren't overconfident in 2018, but we were overall confident.The scent of victory in the air did not breed complacency. If anything we smelled Republican blood in the water which drove us on. We began to believe that more and more seats lay within reach for Democrats, and we responded accordingly.

For all of the talk about the danger of overconfidence, not enough is said about the downside of insufficient confidence. When polls come out showing Biden leading Trump by ten points, you can almost count on someone responding to that news with the comment "we need to campaign as if we were ten points behind instead." No, we should not. People do not campaign well when they are ten points behind. They make unforced errors. They are plagued by doubts, they daily have to counter the fear that nothing they can do now will be enough, that victory is probably beyond reach, that it simply isn't worth fully committing yourself to a cause you sense is lost. If you have any doubt about the truth of that psychology simply study political fundraising. Money dries up for candidates who are perceived to be falling out of the running.

It is different to be trailing by a couple of points instead. Then it can seem that every dollar raised, every door bell rung, every phone call made, might be critical in turning the tide. Republicans need to believe that Trump is now, or very soon will be, within striking distance to win. That is the preferred scenario Republicans are desperately clinging on to, despite Trump's consistently poor performance ratings, despite an economy in deep recession, despite nearly 200,000 American deaths from a pandemic that clearly was horribly mismanaged. We shouldn't throw them any lifelines.

C'mon folks, we've all seen the old movies. There is a reason why the Scots were led into battle by a brigade of screaming bagpipes. It struck a note of fear into the hearts of their opponents, a belief that something was coming at them that they were powerless to stand up to. Skill, luck and valor defeat an enemy in a contest that is closely matched. But fear will rout an enemy that has come to believe all hope is lost. And many a victorious army has been driven to sweep aside all resistance by a belief in their own bright destiny.

47 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
A simple observation about that dreaded attitude called "overconfidence" (Original Post) Tom Rinaldo Sep 2020 OP
K&R MaryMagdaline Sep 2020 #1
The Roman Legions managed to win battles without bagpipes... brooklynite Sep 2020 #2
True. They had a different mystique going for them. Tom Rinaldo Sep 2020 #6
yeahbut. they had war dogs. ihas2stinkyfeet Sep 2020 #10
The Roman Legions' greatest fear-inducing tool was simply their close-ranked marching formations. Aristus Sep 2020 #21
An implacable mass of grim silent men sarge43 Sep 2020 #36
Silence was also an effective fear-inducing tool for our own troops. Aristus Sep 2020 #37
Silence can be terrifying sarge43 Sep 2020 #38
And the outnumbered English beat the French at the Battle of Agincourt, too, The Velveteen Ocelot Sep 2020 #30
Seriously, I haven't seen, read, or heard anyone who is "overconfident" about November 3. catbyte Sep 2020 #3
Agree Johnny2X2X Sep 2020 #5
Yes. I am tired of being accused of it. LakeArenal Sep 2020 #39
Think if Biden was down this big Johnny2X2X Sep 2020 #42
That is certainly an opinion. LakeArenal Sep 2020 #43
Just Win. It Is A Must. dalton99a Sep 2020 #4
Been waiting to see this. Thanks. LakeArenal Sep 2020 #40
did democrats OVER confidence with 2018 have any bearing with the outcome? Last time I looked beachbumbob Sep 2020 #7
Exactly n/t Tom Rinaldo Sep 2020 #8
Bingo we have a winner grantcart Sep 2020 #34
What I find annoying BannonsLiver Sep 2020 #9
And especially that national polls don't matter. When that national spread is big, yes they do! Silent3 Sep 2020 #13
One important caveat regarding polls GeorgiaPeanut Sep 2020 #16
Good point Sugarcoated Sep 2020 #45
If Biden were behind by 10 points, I bet the polls would matter ... StarfishSaver Sep 2020 #25
Repeat 2018, where democrats did what they needed and got a beachbumbob Sep 2020 #32
There's a big push to bring up 2016. LakeArenal Sep 2020 #41
Money dries up for candidates who are perceived to be falling out of the running. BlueWavePsych Sep 2020 #11
well said and tsunamis- ihas2stinkyfeet Sep 2020 #12
The famous trump 2017 tax cut meant to inflict damage on Bluestates beachbumbob Sep 2020 #33
Hear, hear! Alacritous Crier Sep 2020 #14
Overconfidence is so 2016ish GeorgiaPeanut Sep 2020 #15
2016 dynamics gave way to 2018 dynamics. Tom Rinaldo Sep 2020 #17
+1 GeorgiaPeanut Sep 2020 #18
Analysis that ignores faceboook & Russia not reality delisen Sep 2020 #19
They were players in 2016, and yes they will be again. Tom Rinaldo Sep 2020 #23
facebook and Russia are common to both 2016 and 2018 GeorgiaPeanut Sep 2020 #26
its more of the slag on D bullshit Cosmocat Sep 2020 #20
"the downside of insufficient confidence" - defeatism kills enthusiasm lagomorph777 Sep 2020 #22
Thank you StarfishSaver Sep 2020 #24
+1 GeorgiaPeanut Sep 2020 #27
+2 crickets Sep 2020 #28
Agreed. The overconfident tag is very Putinesque. Tommymac Sep 2020 #29
I agree. I don't see any signs of overconfidence. The Velveteen Ocelot Sep 2020 #31
...you can still LOOOOOSE!" is more designed to tamp down our enthusiasm... Tom Rinaldo Sep 2020 #44
I have said this over and over and over Sugarcoated Sep 2020 #35
Hey Tom Sugarcoated Sep 2020 #46
Not at all. Go for it. Thanks for asking n/t Tom Rinaldo Sep 2020 #47

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
6. True. They had a different mystique going for them.
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 10:08 AM
Sep 2020

They were the all powerful Roman Legions against which, it was feared, resistance would ultimately be futile.

Clearly the strength of one's forces matter in any contest. It is not merely a matter of out psyching one's opponents. But dread concerning an upcoming battle adds weight to one side of the scales, much like home court advantage does in a basketball game.

There were an unusual number of Republican incumbents who chose not to run for reelection this year, adding to Democratic chances.

 

ihas2stinkyfeet

(1,400 posts)
10. yeahbut. they had war dogs.
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 10:28 AM
Sep 2020

and those suckers howled into battle.
i'll take bagpipes over braying mastiffs any day of the week, w an encore on sundays.

Aristus

(66,294 posts)
21. The Roman Legions' greatest fear-inducing tool was simply their close-ranked marching formations.
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 11:17 AM
Sep 2020

Until the civil wars that rocked the late Republic, in which Romans fought Romans, the Legions mostly fought barbarian tribesmen. The fighting techniques of barbarian tribes centered around single-combat, in which a brave warrior could earn huge levels of respect, fear and admiration by fighting, in however large a mob of warriors, essentially alone, and for personal glory.

The Romans fought in ranks and files, working as a team, solely for the glory of Rome. They rarely broke off into smaller groups to fight it out individually.

The Romans' relentless, implacable, forward progress on the battlefield, no screaming, no howling, no emotional contribution to the atmosphere of terror and confusion, sowed so much fear into the hearts of their enemies that many of them broke and ran as soon as they saw the marching cohorts.

sarge43

(28,940 posts)
36. An implacable mass of grim silent men
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 12:26 PM
Sep 2020

Throw everything you had at them; they'd turtle and keep moving toward you.

Especially when they had a good commander, like Jules, they would have your ass.

Aristus

(66,294 posts)
37. Silence was also an effective fear-inducing tool for our own troops.
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 12:31 PM
Sep 2020

German POW's undergoing interrogation after capture, were asked which Allied troops they feared the most. Many of them replied "The Americans".

When asked why, a typical reply was "The French go into battle shouting, and the British go into battle singing. The Americans go into battle in total silence. There was something terrifying about these silent soldiers, relentlessly and implacably advancing on our positions."

sarge43

(28,940 posts)
38. Silence can be terrifying
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 12:51 PM
Sep 2020

Can't see 'em, can't hear 'em, can't even smell 'em, but Gott mit uns they are out there.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,609 posts)
30. And the outnumbered English beat the French at the Battle of Agincourt, too,
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 11:52 AM
Sep 2020

even without bagpipes, but besides their superior weapons - longbows - they had Henry V, a respected leader, while the French king Charles VI (also known as Charles the Mad) was psychotic and incompetent, and his troops were disorganized and undisciplined. The French commanders relied on numbers alone, and were so overconfident that their army had already started preparing to celebrate the victory before the battle had started. They had even built a special cart in which they planned to parade the defeated English King. The night before the French troops sang the songs of victory and taunted the English for their small numbers and imminent defeat ("I fart in your general direction"?).

We have Donald the Mad to contend with, and his campaign, apparently led by the likes of Jared Kushner does seem to be disorganized and undisciplined. Bring out the longbows.

catbyte

(34,341 posts)
3. Seriously, I haven't seen, read, or heard anyone who is "overconfident" about November 3.
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 09:59 AM
Sep 2020

November 8, 2016 proved that the absolute worst can--and did--happen. If anything, Biden being up in the polls is motivating us to work even harder to make sure that what those polls are showing becomes a reality the morning of November 4, 2020.

LakeArenal

(28,806 posts)
39. Yes. I am tired of being accused of it.
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 01:01 PM
Sep 2020

We are going to win. That doesn’t mean everybody can stop working toward that goal.

But I’m confident in winning.

LakeArenal

(28,806 posts)
43. That is certainly an opinion.
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 01:27 PM
Sep 2020

Not a great one. Democrats I know and work with have never given up. We all vote. Mid term This term. Every election.

 

beachbumbob

(9,263 posts)
7. did democrats OVER confidence with 2018 have any bearing with the outcome? Last time I looked
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 10:12 AM
Sep 2020

it was a democratic tidal wave of wins

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
34. Bingo we have a winner
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 12:13 PM
Sep 2020

Also Dems have over performed in EVERY special election in the last years winning many deep red seats.

Also note that the polls are using 2016 turnout models for their projections which is reasonable but will be found to be wrong.

Trump's campaign will have a high turnout similar to 2016 but Dems will have 2018 level turnout.

BannonsLiver

(16,313 posts)
9. What I find annoying
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 10:24 AM
Sep 2020

Is not being able to talk about polling, or developments in the race like the Atlantic story without some low info reactionary saying:

1-“Well the polls don’t matter!1!1”

2-“Hillary was 9 pts up at this time in 20161!!”

3-“Well it’ll never change the minds of his supporters!11”

Yes the polls DO matter, no Hillary was never that far ahead in 2016 and thats not the point you low info twits.

Here’s the thing, not all of us have 2016 PTSD. Some of us can talk about polls and the race without needing to start every conversation with qualifiers about GOTV, or without melting down. Doesn’t mean we’re overconfident. It just means we’re paying attention and using our brains for something beyond knee jerk stupidity.

Silent3

(15,148 posts)
13. And especially that national polls don't matter. When that national spread is big, yes they do!
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 10:45 AM
Sep 2020

A ten-point spread in national polling is very, very, very unlikely to be eclipsed by state-specific Electoral College math.

Theoretically possible, yes, but damned unlikely. The biggest EC upset (Rutherford B. Hayes, 1876) only overcame a popular vote gap of slightly over 3%. (There was a bigger gap in 1824, but that was a 4-way race, and nothing like presidential races are run today.)

 

GeorgiaPeanut

(360 posts)
16. One important caveat regarding polls
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 10:58 AM
Sep 2020

In 2016, rural whites without college degree were undercounted because they rarely voted before 2016 but came out in droves in 2016.

Since then, the polling outfits have changed the models and included a representative sample of the rural whites without college degree at the rates they voted in 2016.

So 9 points + in 2016 is not the same thing as 9 points plus in 2020. The 2020 models accurately reflect Trump's support unlike in 2016.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
25. If Biden were behind by 10 points, I bet the polls would matter ...
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 11:29 AM
Sep 2020

And we'd be getting beaten over the head with them.

I don't rely on the polls but I also would rather be in the polling position we're in right now than on the other side.

 

beachbumbob

(9,263 posts)
32. Repeat 2018, where democrats did what they needed and got a
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 12:08 PM
Sep 2020

tidal wave outcome, meanwhile Media did all they did to underplay. Which is just ok in my book.

LakeArenal

(28,806 posts)
41. There's a big push to bring up 2016.
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 01:05 PM
Sep 2020

2020 is not 2016.2. It’s a completely different Democratic Party. We start with two beloved candidates. The (unmerited)
hatred of Hillary is not as prevalent for Joe. 2020 is about right side of history vs wrong side. Period.

Not even Democrat vs Republican.

 

ihas2stinkyfeet

(1,400 posts)
12. well said and tsunamis-
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 10:37 AM
Sep 2020

a tsunami happens when a huge wave meets the beach. it has nowhere to go but up.

18 was fueled by the bottom of the ticket. here in northern illinois, we flipped several seats on red county boards, including flipping control of lake county, and iirc, kane.
we got 3 new dems on a 18 member board of dupage county for a total of 4. dupage was the home of henry hyde, peter ro-scum and before that joe walsh. now repped by raja krishnamorthi.

work the bottom of the ticket, peeps. flip your city council. your county board. your state house. your judiciary.
cuz it will take dems all the way to the ground level to turn this ship around.

nowhere to go but up, folks.
only question now is how high.
and what to do w the stinking garbage that the tide doesnt take out.

 

beachbumbob

(9,263 posts)
33. The famous trump 2017 tax cut meant to inflict damage on Bluestates
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 12:12 PM
Sep 2020

Gave us the turn around in traditional red areas in suburbs. The basic fact that GOP and trump had fundamental mis understanding of the outcome is obvious. Well to do surburbs WERE the traditional GOP areas until they were screwed with massive federal tax increases.

 

GeorgiaPeanut

(360 posts)
15. Overconfidence is so 2016ish
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 10:55 AM
Sep 2020

SOS Clinton did not attack Trump viciously because she was advised not to rock the boat and that she would win. She played footsy with the fake email imbroglio instead of attacking it head on. She took WI and MI for granted and didn't visit there in the last weeks.

This made many voters think that the election was in the bag and their vote was not needed.


That history makes everyone motivated this time around. No one is going to not vote unless they are comatose.

A different dynamic altogether.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
17. 2016 dynamics gave way to 2018 dynamics.
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 11:00 AM
Sep 2020

2016 triggered a movement that has not hesitated since then in its resolve to remove Trump and all those who enable him from power. Lessons were learned and they have NOT been forgotten

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
23. They were players in 2016, and yes they will be again.
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 11:21 AM
Sep 2020

Ignoring what has changed though could be called feelbadism:

"Reasons why Trump's 2016 upset will not be repeated"
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214001216

 

GeorgiaPeanut

(360 posts)
26. facebook and Russia are common to both 2016 and 2018
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 11:31 AM
Sep 2020

Actually, the influence is less in 2020 than in 2016 because people are wise to it.

Cosmocat

(14,559 posts)
20. its more of the slag on D bullshit
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 11:16 AM
Sep 2020

Rs are cocky all the fucking time, and I literally have not heard them being chastised for being OVER CONFIDENT once in my entire life.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
22. "the downside of insufficient confidence" - defeatism kills enthusiasm
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 11:20 AM
Sep 2020

We need to get off this broken record of "Act like we're 10 points behind!!!!!!" Which is tantamount to "Resistance is futile. Surrender Dorothy."

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
24. Thank you
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 11:27 AM
Sep 2020

I'm sick of being lectured about not being "overconfident" when I've seen absolutely no evidence - either in my personal interactions and work or in any regional or national news coverage or discussions - of Democrats being the least bit overconfident. We're still working our asses off. It's just that we're saying " Damn! We can win this thing. Let's work harder to make it happen!"

I suspect that the "don't get overconfident - you can still LOOOOOSE!" is more designed to tamp down our enthusiasm than ensure that we stay focused.

Tommymac

(7,263 posts)
29. Agreed. The overconfident tag is very Putinesque.
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 11:51 AM
Sep 2020

Not saying ALL who are espousing this pov are Putin trolls, but a small but significant % are operatives.

They are real and exist on all major Progressive websites. It is part of the Putin funded effort to impact Our election process. Some have more then likely been around for a decade or more. (Yes, unfortunately even here. I'm sure the admins get 95% of them eventually, but without trying to scare anyone or putting on tin hats we must admit they exist so we can counter them. Reality bites.

But honestly for informed folks the real long term trolls are fairly easy to spot, counter and avoid. I am very confident these efforts are backfiring this year, as the rational electorate is more engaged then anytime in my 60+ years on this Earth and sees them for waht they really are.

We must continue to be a reality based movement, and fight the temptation to give in to all the anxiety and fear tactics being used everywhere - the fact that the Thugs are going there so heavily means they ain't got nothing else, whereas the left has the momentum, the desire and the will to succeed against all odds THIS year.

GOTV, stay vocal and 'Don't worry BE Happy' and We ARE going to prevail if we keep informed and enthusiastic.

Thanks for the great reality based OP, btw.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,609 posts)
31. I agree. I don't see any signs of overconfidence.
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 11:57 AM
Sep 2020

The prevailing attitude seems to be that GOTV and protecting the vote is absolutely essential because of the widespread and realistic concern that Trump and his minions will lie, cheat and steal to win. I think we know we would win a fair election but we also know that Trump will try to make this one unfair.

Tom Rinaldo

(22,911 posts)
44. ...you can still LOOOOOSE!" is more designed to tamp down our enthusiasm...
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 06:22 PM
Sep 2020

That was my concern in writing this OP, but I failed to adequately consider that it could be happening by design as much if not more so than reflecting our anxiety over the outcome. Good point.

Sugarcoated

(7,716 posts)
35. I have said this over and over and over
Tue Sep 8, 2020, 12:16 PM
Sep 2020

and over and over. Not in those exact words, of course. I always use the sports metaphors. Winners believe they can win and project it. It's a mental game...

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»A simple observation abou...