WTF with the Woodward bashing? Are you TRYING to help discredit him?

[nolabear]

For the record I have serious conflicting concerns about him not going public re 45’s comments about COVID. But remember, they could spin it, they had the power over acting on mitigation and that’s what would make a difference, and he’d have instantly lost access to all those conversations whose tapes we now can hear.

I mean, have a nuanced discussion, but this whole Woodward Scorched Earth attitude only helps those who you’d better believe are going to try to discredit him in any way possible. We need to be smart in our responses, not knee-jerk.

[elleng]

1. Thanks

[demmiblue]

2. K&R

[underpants]

3. I agree. Woodward gets access for a reason.

He’s trusted. Trump is an incompetent moron who spilled the beans to Woodward because he craved the attention.

[BannonsLiver]

4. Agreed. We have some who are really bad at reading the room

[nolabear]

7. There's a real art to that. And it's work.

We need to work on every level to defeat him!

[Dream Girl]

5. Some folks here can't help it. Knee jerk reaction.

[murielm99]

65. Exactly.

That is what happens in the internet. Smart people do it almost as often as stupid people.

Just react. Don't look into anything further.

[Peacetrain]

6. God save us from the righteous

got me stumped

[Kaleva]

8. +1

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

9. Yes, exactly.

I don't get why people are so eager to blame someone other than Trump and his wretched administration. Plenty of those assholes would have known what Woodward learned; why didn't they come forward or at least leak?

It's like throwing a ball of yarn into a room full of kittens. The kittens jump on the ball at first but almost immediately start wrestling with each other, but that's because they are tiny animals with tiny brains and they've only been around for a few weeks. Kittens are adorable, but I should hope our attention span and ability to focus is a bit more developed than theirs.

[Hekate]

53. VO, your roomful of kittens analogy made me laugh -- a rare commodity these days, and kinder...

...than I might have been by far.

Thanks.

[gratuitous]

10. I don't read the criticism as discrediting Woodward

People are angry (and in my opinion righteously so) that Woodward sat on important information at a time when the administration was actively working to confuse and mislead the public about the pandemic and its anticipated effects on the American people. If we're not at 200,000 dead yet, we soon will be. And the people of our country are still engaged in pointless disputes about the reality of the pandemic, the simple countermeasures that should be taken, and the advisability of listening to anything the administration says about its efforts.

The criticism fully credits what Woodward is saying; it's directed at Woodward's desire to sell more books dipped in the blood of tens of thousands of dead Americans.

[nolabear]

14. Criticism is good. "Fuck Woodward!" et al is foolish.

[Montelimar]

15. and what difference would it have made?

Even after ALLLLL the shit chump has pulled, NO ONE has actually stepped up to smack his ass down.

[Woodwizard]

77. Andrew Cuomo

Did months ago in his briefings no one paid attention and picked up where he left off, it seems Cuomo on a fairly regular basis pointed out the failing of 45 and the whole federal response.

I also think there was this little thing that happened the congress impeached the Orange Menace.

[Montelimar]

90. The motherfucker is still sitting behind the Resolute Desk

and has suffered ZERO consequences.

[Woodwizard]

96. OK

So put your rage to use and get some people out to vote. Don't know what else to say.

[Montelimar]

98. You do the same

[Spazito]

19. There would have still been tens of thousands of dead Americans...

if Woodward had written an op-ed at the time of the interview. The trumpets would not have believed him, would have said the tapes had been manipulated were they to have been released and the same people who refuse to wear masks, socially distance themselves, etc. would still be doing it.

The same arguments that occur today would have occurred then and people would have continued to die, imo.

[uponit7771]

40. 1 life would've been worth it would it not? tia

[Spazito]

44. You don't know 1 life would have been saved...

that is speculation and condemning someone based on speculation is not fair, imo. Trump is responsible for this not Woodward.

[uponit7771]

46. Yes I do ... sadly I do

[Spazito]

47. So I assume you know someone who would have believed Woodward yet didn't believe...

all the warnings that were coming from Europe and Asia?

[uponit7771]

48. The average human doesn't closely lurk international news sources and yes, I know they would've ...

.... believed Trumps own words on tape that the virus was a killer, deadly and airborne.

That would've made so much a difference ... just damn

[Spazito]

49. I am not sure I understand...

Were they a trump supporter so they would have believed what he said on the tape even though trump would have denied it or were they not trusting of trump so they would have believed him on tape even if he denied it?

[uponit7771]

51. No, what difference would any of that make in the first place? Bottom line, KNOWING the bug was

... airborne on Feb 6th was important and people would've made different decisions about what to do.

To argue disclosing the bug was airborne on Feb 6th would not have made any difference at all to whether a person lived, died or got sick is asinine position to take on its face.

[Tribetime]

70. I agree with you where would we be if this came out months ago

[Hekate]

57. Like they believed the pussy-grabbing tapes? By now, Trumpism is a cult & Trumpists are just...

...eagerly awaiting their serving of Kool-aid so they can be raptured to him. Meanwhile, they have the rapture of being at one of his rallies.

I feel sorry for them, really I do, but the only people who can do anything about him are not his hypnotized cultists. Try reading “True Believer” for a take on this psychology. Very few escape.

It’s up to us and the leaders we choose. It’s up to people already in power to do what they can to stop this monster.

[uponit7771]

79. MAGA don't matter, they don't have a big enough political mass to matter and never did. Trump

... got less votes than rMoney but still won because of Russian backed 3rd party candidates in swing states.

So we can .. NEVER .. mad prudent decisions based on that brain dead assed people

[Montelimar]

91. what about the humans who live overseas?

pretty sure they catch up on the news in Burkina Faso, London, Lake Titicaca, etc.

[uponit7771]

23. THIS !!!! ☝🏾☝🏾☝🏾 People ***RIGHT NOW*** are still arguing about how deadly this bug is TODAY !!!

I'm gob smacked about timing and other shit when Woodwards information could've saved lives.

I'll wait but this looks fucked up

[obamanut2012]

11. 100% agree

[AnotherMother4Peace]

12. K&R

[Atticus]

13. Agree. nt

[chillfactor]

16. agreed....

we do such a great job of shooting ourselves in the foot.

[ihas2stinkyfeet]

17. i dont hold it against woodward himself so much as

all those who cover the wh, and tip toe around so they dont lose their precious access. lookin at you, nora o'donnell, and many more.

but when lives are in the balance, your book rly should come second.

[MoonRiver]

18. I agree. It pisses me off that people can't figure out which side we're on.

[BannonsLiver]

27. A lot of people have conveniently forgotten about Watergate

The reality is that some here are so consumed by their own self righteousness they lose any semblance of reason and history.

[uponit7771]

20. NO !! No, disagree. A fully informed populous would've saved 1 life ... PERIOD !! I'll wait ...

... but "Trump would've said water is dry anyway" is a piss poor reason to keep this important information from the public about the virus in the beginning.

To proffer ... NO ... lives would've been saved in the beginning is rewriting history.

A fully informed public would've made their own decisions based on which Trump they wanted to believe and Trumps spin would mattered less than

[gratuitous]

26. No, you and I are apparently wrong

Others have gazed into their flawless, faultless crystal balls and know 100% for sure that nobody's life would have been saved, nothing would have been different if Woodward had published sooner, and Bob Woodward is the smartest, most accurate, all-seeing oracle who just happens to make more money off his book by delaying publication for six or seven months.

I know! It's kind of a surprise to me, too. But the "logic" of the crystal ball gazers is irrefutable.

[uponit7771]

31. Right ?!?! Trump knew it was a respiratory pathogen in January !!! but the public did NOT

[nolabear]

41. Uh-huh. You make my point. A critique is great. An attack based on your own spin

is simply raging and divisive.

[gratuitous]

45. I'll let Charlie Pierce of Esquire say it

Link to post here. Italics in the original; bold face is my added emphasis.

Let us be clear. Both of these men knew [Trump and Woodward] before anyone else that the president* was lying in public about the most serious public health crisis in a century. Both of these men knew before anyone else how serious that threat was, and how deadly the disease could be. Both of these men knew before anyone else that a potential disaster was not only possible, but increasingly likely. BOTH OF THESE MEN KNEW! The president* knew and lied because he wanted to get re-elected. Woodward knew and kept it to himself because he had a book to sell. Who’s worse? Far too measured a choice for this reporter, but, as someone who in his own small way practices the same craft as Bob Woodward, I have to wonder how Woodward watched the president* lie for six months as the body count ratcheted skyward without his conscience tearing out his heart. I have to wonder if, in some small way, journalism as public service died as collateral damage in that struggle.

But yes, let's let Bob Woodward enjoy his book sales in peace. He's suffered enough.

[nolabear]

58. You keep putting words in my mouth.

I did not say a word re enjoying book sales or sitting back. I said he’s going to be asked about that. He should be. I object to the baby-bath water approach. It’s foolish and simplistic. If that works for you, so be it.

[gratuitous]

60. You're the one who said the critics are trying to discredit Woodward

Don't get mad at me when I show how you're wrong.

[nolabear]

62. Right. Except for the "critics" part.

I’ll say it one more time. Criticism is good. Knee jerk cancel him and salt his yard is not.

I’m out.

[crimycarny]

30. Fauci and Surgeon General went along with it. What about them?

WTF is everyone bashing Woodward when even the “experts” were downplaying it. As late as 2/29 the Surgeon General told everyone not to wear masks. Why is no one angry with THEM?

[uponit7771]

32. They didn't just get off the phone with the president of China, Trump and Woodward were fully ...

... informed we weren't.

I'd like to know how much Fauci knew and when he knew it but at this point the two people we KNOW who knew this was a respiratory pathogen in JANUARY are Trump and Woodward.

[crimycarny]

36. Fauci would have known

He was talking to experts in other countries. There is no way he didn’t know. Fauci would have more weight than Woodward AND IT WAS HIS JOB!

[uponit7771]

39. Probably, but I'd like to hear Fauci's own words on this vs I've already heard Trumps. My Ire is ...

...pointed towards Trump seeing he's an enemy of the country but I don't want people letting Woodward off the hook unless his family was in danger.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

81. I think this is inaccurate

"at this point the two people we KNOW who knew this was a respiratory pathogen in JANUARY are Trump and Woodward".
It was known to the WHO as of 12/31 that a respiratory pathogen was loose...

[uponit7771]

82. In the US, it wasn't well know the worst way to catch CV19 was by the air. I didn't know until they

... told us to mask up, at first it was wear gloves and don't touch your face.

If Trump had come out and said you just breath in and you get it I would've wore a mask sence then.

[uponit7771]

93. There's no proof they knew the lethality of the virus in January as much as Trump did if they did ..

... then pox on them too.

Fuck them too

[crimycarny]

100. They knew...

“In early January, deputy national security advisor Matthew Pottinger receives a call from a friend, a Hong Kong epidemiologist who informs him of a ferocious outbreak of a new virus that has spread far more quickly than the Chinese government is admitting. The epidemiologist also explains that the virus is spread by asymptomatic individuals. In ensuing days, Pottinger held the view that the coronavirus problem was far worse than the Chinese government was admitting.

Senior U.S. officials, including CDC Director Robert Redfield, HHS Secretary Alex Azar, and NIAID Director Dr. Anthony Fauci, form a task force dedicated to dealing with the novel virus.”

Yet as late as 2/29 Fauci said:

“On the Today Show, Dr. Fauci says, “There’s no need to change anything that you’re doing on a day by day basis. Right now the risk is still low, but this could change.”

I think Fauci did the best he could in a tough situation. He had a “Sophie’s Choice” due to the lack of PPE for health personnel. I only keep mentioning Fauci to point out that even our own experts were downplaying it which would played right into Trump’s hands for denial and spin. With so few cases at that time, most people would have bought it.

[uponit7771]

101. "..we all knew.." is officially McConnell's defense of Trump, please stop saying this on DU (link)

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214054416

[crimycarny]

102. Do not tell me what to say

I was responding to your own post where you stated there was no evidence that others knew.

It’s ok for you to ASSUME that if only Woodward had come out with the tapes thousands of lives would have been saved. But it’s not ok for others to have dissenting opinions?

Spare me your righteousness.

[uponit7771]

103. RWTP is not allowed to be repeated on DU cause its against TOS, this is one of them

[crimycarny]

104. Oh puhleeze

It’s not a RWTP, it was a direct rebuttal — with evidence — to your stating others didn’t know.


Just as a reminder to one of your other replies:

34. We have no idea what they knew and when they knew it but we do know how much Trump and Woodward

... knew and when they knew it.

The American public deserved to be fully informed.

So, the American public deserved to be fully informed as long as we agree who the source should be?

At this point I’m done. You are obviously set in your mind how you feel and how others should feel. No point in pursuing someone with a closed mind.

[crimycarny]

105. Oops...regarding those RWTP...

Link to tweet

?s=20

[uponit7771]

106. That's true, no one is blaming Woodward for Trumps 100% lies

[Montelimar]

92. Trump is in charge of national pandemic response

not Bob Woodward.

[uponit7771]

94. Woodward had a responsibility to share what he knew about the lethality of the bug early and it ...

... would've saved many lives or sick people.

It could've been done smartly

[Montelimar]

95. "It could've been done smartly"

what? coordinated national pandemic response?

That would have saved at least one life, for sure.

[crimycarny]

99. No, it wouldn't have

Take a look at this timeline. https://www.justsecurity.org/69650/timeline-of-the-coronavirus-pandemic-and-u-s-response/

1/30: New England Journal of Medicine confirms existence of asymptomatic transmission.

“In early January, deputy national security advisor Matthew Pottinger receives a call from a friend, a Hong Kong epidemiologist who informs him of a ferocious outbreak of a new virus that has spread far more quickly than the Chinese government is admitting. The epidemiologist also explains that the virus is spread by asymptomatic individuals. In ensuing days, Pottinger held the view that the coronavirus problem was far worse than the Chinese government was admitting.

Senior U.S. officials, including CDC Director Robert Redfield, HHS Secretary Alex Azar, and NIAID Director Dr. Anthony Fauci, form a task force dedicated to dealing with the novel virus.“

(So Fauci knew, along with other top healthcare officials)

2/26: in an interview Fauci states the virus is a low risk to everyday Americans, but is something public health officials need to take take “very seriously”
2/29: Fauci says that Americans do not need to change their daily practices and the current risk is low.
3/29: WHO states there is no conclusive evidence COVID is transmitted via airborne particles

At the time Woodward had the tapes our own officials were downplaying it! We had a handful of cases. Woodward would have been attacked as “fake news!”

I mean, hell, look at what’s happening even with what we know now. People on the right bashing Woodward, saying it’s a “hit piece”. People on the left bashing Woodward saying he could have saved lives.

Look at that timeline, at lot more blame to go around and Woodward at the bottom of that list.

[StrictlyRockers]

21. Woodward is complicit in the lying.

Woodward’s interview with Trump happened more than 3 weeks before the first death was reported in the US.

He sat on the tape while 190,000 people died.

[crimycarny]

24. And Fauci, Birx, and the Surgeon General?

They get a pass on this?

[StrictlyRockers]

25. good questions n/t

[gratuitous]

29. I give Fauci and Birx half passes

Their jobs depend on keeping Trump happy. In my opinion, Fauci weighed the options, and decided he was more effective in his position than he would be by falling on his sword and pissing off Trump. Birx? I don't know what her thought process was, but she appears to be moving toward Fauci and away from Trump. Perhaps she had less nerve than Fauci, I don't know.

But Bob Woodward's job is not and has never been contingent on keeping Donald Trump happy or filing only those stories that are pleasing to Trump.

[crimycarny]

33. Are you kidding?

If Fauci. Birx, and the Surgeon General decided keeping Trump happy was more important than saving American lives, then why even have a Surgeon General? Why even have a CDC?

Keeping Americans safe WAS their job. Keeping Trump happy was not. Fauci gets fired? Who cares, that frees him up to tell the truth. Trump wasn’t going to listen to him anyway.

[uponit7771]

34. We have no idea what they knew and when they knew it but we do know how much Trump and Woodward

... knew and when they knew it.

The American public deserved to be fully informed.

[Act_of_Reparation]

35. No, they don't.

But they're not exactly analogous situations, are they?

They don't directly criticize the President's response because they are afraid he will fire them, but their desire to keep their jobs isn't necessarily self-serving. If Trump were to send them packing, he'd likely have them replaced with a fast food CEO, a gas station attendant in a MAGA hat, and a half-eaten Big Mac. Then where the fuck would we be?

Bob Woodward doesn't have that excuse to fall back on. He held onto information so he could profit from it. End. Of. Debate.

[crimycarny]

37. IT WAS THEIR JOB

And they lied to the American people. Sorry, I’m much angrier with Fauci, Birx, and the Surgeon General. No one will trust what they say from here on out.

[Act_of_Reparation]

85. And the job of a journalist is what, pray tell?

[crimycarny]

38. End of debate?

Maybe for you. But the rest of us are free to debate, thank you.

[Act_of_Reparation]

84. So you think he held onto this information for reasons beyond his own personal interest?

Do. Tell.

[crimycarny]

22. Exactly!!

Why are Fauci and Birx getting a pass on this? The Surgeon General told the public on 2/29 to stop buying masks!

I blame the experts for basically going along with Trump.

[revmclaren]

28. K & R...

The closer to the election information like this comes out, the more damage is inflicted on the tRump campaign. Earlier, it would have been blasted as 'fake news' by the administration and unfortunately, denigrated and questioned by the press until it disappeared into media limbo.

So.... GOTV!!!

[malaise]

42. Agree

Rec

[GusBob]

43. Uh yeah Us Liberals and our moral compass

Shame shame shame on us. fuck our conscience

If BW wants folks to die to help his book sales more power to him

[qazplm135]

50. let me be clear

if I had to pick between Trump being re-elected because he handled the virus well because Woodward came out right away and forced him to take this seriously, and Trump losing because of this book but 100s of Americans dead?

I'd take the former every day of the week.

Now, that makes a large assumption that Woodward's tape coming out back then would have changed anything.

Maybe it wouldn't have, but we will never know because Woodward waited until peak time to get book sales.

That's morally indefensible.

[Hekate]

52. What you said, nolabear

Honestly.

My pet peeve (triggered once again this morning) are the people who keep thinking The Lincoln Project is somehow talking to us, you know, DUers and Democrats, and that they aren't up to our standards, etc. Why would they want to try to convince us to not vote for Trump? We are not their audience — and they all have a proven track record of messing with the perceptions of whoever they decide is their audience.

[Mike 03]

54. THANK YOU

[ancianita]

55. Thank you. Timing is part of good journalism, and he likely knew that what he could

do for the long run would make a much bigger difference than an immediate reveal.

[yaesu]

56. you make a good point, having all his ducks in a row before reporting about it plus there is

absolutely nothing, zilch, nada anyone can do about it anyway as the House is the only part of government that isn't fascist controlled.

[Hugin]

59. After Trump's blow-up about "Fear", Woodward undoubtedly had to sell some portion of his soul to the

Impeached-for-Quid-Pro-Quo would-be Turd Emperor to retain some access for the current book.

Which, we don't know what that portion of soul was, but, you can bet it was substantial and no doubt had some level of pre-approval by Old Yeller before release.

So, these revelations are known in advance by Team Rump and are somehow pre-spun by his media outlets.

Proceed with caution.

YMMV.

[CaptainTruth]

61. Yep, what you said.

People who are upset because Woodward didn't release recordings earlier are assuming it would have changed something, that it would have saved lives.

I've watched Trump & his sycophants. I don't believe it would have changed anything. I don't believe it would have saved a single life. That's truly sad, but it's what I believe.

[seta1950]

63. Hold on

Just to put it in perspective, the republicans could of saved us this heartache before Covid happened, several times actually, it’s useless to blame Woodward when they are to blame for the last 4 years of misery, for all of us , the caged children , the innocent people killed by police , shall I go on.

[hadEnuf]

64. The dangers of Covid have been obvious and pointed out by many, many credible and knowledgeable

people as the crisis developed. Covid hasn't been a mystery to anybody.

Instead, we got AstroTurf anti-mask groups, armed public demonstrations, ludicrous conspiracy accusations and Faux News and the asshole Trump administration calling it a hoax. People heard what they wanted to hear and it's hard to believe that any revelations from Woodward prior to now would have made any significant difference.

By publishing his book now, Woodward will at least be inflicting some more damage on Trump's already tanking credibility.

[MineralMan]

66. Think about it, note who is doing it, and you will have your answer.

Ask yourself why someone would attack Woodward at this time. I have asked myself that question.

[catbyte]

67. Legitimate criticism is not discrediting him. He withheld this knowledge to sell a book while

trump lied and people died. He's no better than Bolton. Sorry.

[ecstatic]

68. So I'm just now hearing the news for today...

I'm really confused...

Wasn't trump excoriated by Bob Woodward in 2018?

But trump did another series of interviews with Woodward in 2020?

You really can't make this shit up!

[nolabear]

73. I think he's so insecure he thinks being interviewed by him is great!

He’s not very smart, you know.

[samsingh]

69. thanks

[mcar]

71. This!

[somaticexperiencing]

72. LEFTIST EGO. And lack of strategy. And lack of proportion. Will these continue...

to sink us when we least want it?

Let's win this election. Please. We need it bad.

[MFM008]

74. Hes totally credible

I just wish he would have written his book 100 thousand dead ago....

[Griefbird]

75. Woodward's duty to warn was mitigated

by Trump's lack of credibility. Trump told Woodward that he learned of the virus' airborne spread in a phone conversation with Xi Jinping the night before, but Trump's attribution of statements to others is notoriously unreliable. Trump's statement to Woodward at the time became credible only after it turned out that the virus is as virulent as we subsequently determined. Robert O'Brien appears to have had credible information at the time, but I haven't seen reporting that O'Brien provided that information to Woodward, much less to the public.

[The_REAL_Ecumenist]

76. WORD. I agree with you 20000000000000000%!!! This ORANGE ASS FUCKER has committed CRIMES AGAINST...

HUMANITY & I don't believe for ONE FUCKING SECOND that the sanctions against the BLACK FEMALE JUDGE @the WORLD COURT is coincidental in ANY FUCKING WAY!! These walking POS knew something devastating that the ORANGE ASS couldn't lie & spin himself out of was on it's way...

[GeorgeGist]

78. Relax Francis ...

nobody's gonna make you believe FOX.

[Texin]

80. I"m glad he FINALLY dropped this information. Book or no book, he should have spoken up then.

I'm furious he withheld that kind of information at the outset. Peoples lives and their health depended on it. tRump was never going to tell anyone the truth about this thing. I realize that he probably had concerns that this type of revelation ahead of the publication of his upcoming book being a trigger for tRump and his minions to file another emergency injunction to stop it cold, but it didn't work with the other books by whistleblowers and it wouldn't have worked in this case either.

Woodward had a duty to warn. He didn't. I am not sorry I think this way.

[robbedvoter]

83. You can't discredit him - got tapes. He is still an 🍑🕳 like all 🍊's toadies

Kinda like with Michael Cohen.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

86. But we like being so angry and outraged!!!!

Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.

“Look! That prominent Republican is endorsing Joe Biden!”

“Fuck him! We don’t need him! He’s a Republican!”

[Lucinda]

87. Plus I am pretty sure Woodward mentioned it weeks ago in an interview

when he first started doing press for the book. I already knew this when the news broke..I cant remember if he said that there was tape at the time, but it was a pretty wide ranging interview and there were a LOT of wtf? sort of answers...

[GoneOffShore]

88. I'm going with Hekate on this - And Charlie Pierce

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214051862

[demmiblue]

89. ...

[Blecht]

97. Trump had already said all that in public

I'm glad it's getting the reaction it is, but Trump already admitted to all this stuff - remember the "cheerleader" statements he made months ago?

I don't think Woodward saying anything would have made any difference. It is probably having its optimal impact right now.

Getting Trump out of office is what we need more than anything if our ultimate goal is to save lives. And Woodward's book is helping.