From the Woodward interview on 60 minutes, I am convinced if Woodward came out in February

[still_one]

it would not have changed a damned thing

In Woodward's last interview with trump, he told trump his book would not be kind to him, and trump immediately tweeted out that Woodward's book was fake.

I believe if Woodward came out in February saying that the virus was extremely lethal, it would not have changed anyone's mind. Trump would still spew the same mixed messaging, because that is exactly what he is doing now after it has come out.

Throughout his entire presidency, he has pushed one lie after another, regardless of how much the media has caught him in those lies.

[mobeau69]

1. And, like Bob said tonight, he didn't know if dump knew what he was talking about.

Dump is a worthless source as well as a worthless “human being”.

[still_one]

5. Trump would have contradicted it regardless, just like he did regarding the Russian bounties on

American Soldiers from our intelligence, the poisoning of the Russian opposition leader, and his slurs against American soldiers

[RazzleCat]

24. I still think he could not remember the word

seasonal, and ended up with strenuous instead. Never heard of flu referred to as worse than the strenuous flu.

[MustLoveBeagles]

2. I agree

[stillcool]

3. the only one it could hurt would be Woodward...

the sewers are chock full of Trump's shit, and people can't even smell it.

[still_one]

7. and trump has hurt the careers of a lot of people. Vindman is one of many examples

[LizBeth]

4. He is doing it now telling people not to wear masks, come to rallies that are a lot of people not

separating. He is working harder to end testing. Having those months of trump lying over and over and then him him say upfront worse than a flu leaves an impact that would not have been there.

[tblue37]

16. His big peace agreement signing has run into a roadblock because the Israelis insist on masks

and social distancing, but the Trump White House says no masks, no distancing.

[Thekaspervote]

18. Since Israel is calling for a 2nd national lock down they best stick to it

[tblue37]

22. Typical of Trump to not consider the needs of the other people. nt

[LizBeth]

23. Wow, I saw there was a problem, didn't know over the mask, and ya Israel is doing a second closing

I read this morning. They will cave. Fucking everyone caves with Trump and does not stand their ground. Oh, except Pelosi. Lol.

[LisaL]

6. His supporters sure don't seem to care.

Look at them loading up mask less into an indoor rally. And the rest of us I presume figured out Trump was lying. We didn't need the tapes to tell us that this virus was no joke.

[mobeau69]

12. BINGO!

[Proud Liberal Dem]

8. I always assumed

The virus was pretty bad. I actually don't think there was a time where it wasn't being portrayed, at least in the media, as being pretty serious, esp with the news coming out from China. I also wasn't listening to anything Trump was saying. At any rate, it was ultimately Trump's responsibility to take it seriously and encourage everybody else to take it seriously and handle it responsibly and he failed miserably. What Woodward said or didn't say at the time probably wouldn't have changed much IMHO.

[still_one]

11. Anyone listening to what was happening in China should have been well aware this was

a very dangerous situation

[LisaL]

29. Same here. Never listened to what Trump was babbling about.

I guess the only shocking thing is that Trump actually understood the virus was dangerous and airborne but claimed in public it was just like a flu.
I always assumed the virus was dangerous and airborne.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

54. Yes

And let's not forget that, despite his public appearances, Trump is having his close aides and advisers rigorously tested and isolated. He clearly does not seem personally cavelier about it.

[Ms. Toad]

9. Rationalization for why an immoral decision didn't really hurt anyone. n/t

[still_one]

15. I am not rationalizing a thing, I am just observing what has been happening during his

entire presidency

I would like someone to point out to me when a reporter has pointed out trump's lying, and misrepresenting facts, where that changed anything, or anyone's behavior, since trump immediately labeled it fake news, if it disagreed with his view of the world

The impeachment and Kavanaugh hearing just reinforce that

[Ms. Toad]

19. The fact that you believe it would have done no good

Does not alter the moral obligation to disclose information that has the potential to save hundreds of thousands of lives.

How others react to information does not alter the moral obligation to disclose.

Suggesting the results would not have changed even if the informaiton had been disclosed (so it is OK not to have disclosed it) is pretty much the definition of rationalization.

[Sewa]

26. Wow! Thank you

You summed it up perfectly. Woodward deserves all the criticism he’s getting.

[still_one]

28. When someone does the same thing over and over again, and some still expect different results

I don't know what to say.

"January-February 2020: U.S. intelligence agencies issue over a dozen detailed warnings about the threat of the virus in the President’s Daily Brief, and issue classified reports about the virus; senior U.S. officials begin to form a task force.

The U.S. intelligence community includes a detailed explanation of the potential cataclysmic disease in Wuhan, China―based in part on wire intercepts, computer intercepts, and satellite images―in the President’s Daily Brief in early January.

U.S. intelligence community classified reports track the spread of the virus, warn that Chinese officials appeared to be minimizing the outbreak, and warn of global danger from the coronavirus. They reportedly issue over a dozen confidential reports in the president’s daily briefing, colloquially known as the “PDB,” that warn about the lethal toll of the virus and explain that China is hiding information about the magnitude of the threat.

(Note: An official at the Office of the Director of National Intelligence has denied the reports, stating “The detail of this is not true.”)

In early January, deputy national security advisor Matthew Pottinger receives a call from a friend, a Hong Kong epidemiologist who informs him of a ferocious outbreak of a new virus that has spread far more quickly than the Chinese government is admitting. The epidemiologist also explains that the virus is spread by asymptomatic individuals. In ensuing days, Pottinger held the view that the coronavirus problem was far worse than the Chinese government was admitting.

Senior U.S. officials, including CDC Director Robert Redfield, HHS Secretary Alex Azar, and NIAID Director Dr. Anthony Fauci, form a task force dedicated to dealing with the novel virus.

“Donald Trump may not have been expecting this, but a lot of other people in the government were — they just couldn’t get him to do anything about it,” a U.S. official with access to the classified briefings told the Washington Post. “The system was blinking red.”

Note: The U.S. intelligence community reports continue in January and February, as the disease spread beyond China, and spy agencies tracked its surge in other countries. The majority of the information came from public sources, but a significant portion came from classified intelligence sources, according to The Washington Post. In early January, the State Department’s epidemiologist gives a report to the Director of National Intelligence stating that the virus was likely to spread across the globe and warning of its potential to become a pandemic.

.........

January 18, 2020: Alex Azar tries to speak to President Trump about the outbreak for the first time. President Trump ignores the warning.

Alex Azar speaks to President Trump on the phone for the first time about the virus. President Trump instead asks to discuss vaping and whether flavored vaping products would return to the market. The Wall Street Journal confirms that officials debriefed on the call said Trump dismissed coronavirus concerns as alarmist, but Azar tells the Journal that the president had never been dismissive.

“Trump’s advisers struggled to get him to take the virus seriously, according to multiple officials with knowledge of meetings among those advisers and with the president,” the Washington Post reports.

https://www.justsecurity.org/69650/timeline-of-the-coronavirus-pandemic-and-u-s-response/

Dr. Bright was also there warning them early in January, and we all know what eventually happened to Dr. Bright, he was sidelined.

The most telling thing is trump putting Dr. Atlas, a radiologist to head the pandemic task force, and Atlas his a proponent of his form of "herd" immunity, which most every leading expert in epidemiology and infectious disease is against.

No it isn't rationalization to observe the pattern of behavior of trump, and expect him to follow that pattern of behavior

He didn't like the guidelines from the CDC, so he "persuaded" them to change those guidelines

It was trump's responsibility, and the other officials and physicians who knew of the danger

[Ms. Toad]

31. I'm not addressing Trump's behavior -

I'm addressing Woodward's.

[LisaL]

33. So CDC knew, yet the journalist is the one you are holding responsible?

NT

[Ms. Toad]

34. So there can only be one responsible? That's pretty silly.

Everyone who knew had a moral obligation to disclose the information, including Woodward. Including Fauci (as I've said numerous times).

Responsibility is not binary. There is plenty of responsibility to go around. Some people lived up to their moral obligations - others didn't. Fauci failed when he did not contradict Trump's false statements, and when he joined in the "white lie" about masks. Woodward failed when he sat, for months, on information that could have saved lives.

[LisaL]

36. Woodward is an investigative journalist.

His responsibility is an investigative reporting.
Unlike that of CDC and the president, who all had this info.

[Ms. Toad]

38. That is is job. That does not alter his moral responsibility. n/t

[still_one]

42. My point Ms. Toad is that trump has either side-lined, or labeled those who have contradicted

him as liars, regardless of the evidence.

Look how many people have been "fired", because they wanted to spend more time with the family, from his administration

I was watching interviews of not only trump supporters, but also students and others who believe the pandemic is a "hoax", and the number of cases and deaths is "not because of covid", but because of other causes.

From the beginning of his term he has been labelling any news source that disagrees with him as "fake news"

Unfortunately, I believe Fauci knew of the danger early on, but did not come out strongly enough because he felt he would have been taken off the task force, where he thought he could at least do some good.

I think this is evidenced by Fauci essentially being side-lined by the radiologist Atlas, because Fauci was contradicting trump too many times

Trump couldn't be convicted after impeachment by the Senate, and for all his malfeasance, and protection by the republicans, what is wrong is made to appear as "right"

After the disparaging remarks regarding our troops, the revelations in the Woodward book, and tapes from trump's own mouth, at any other time, any other president would be way behind in the polls, and it is a sad statement that isn't the case.

That is why I don't believe if Woodward had come out publicly in February, it would have changed anything

[Sewa]

44. How can Trump refute his own voice saying

he’s withholding information on the the virus?

[still_one]

45. I don't understand that either. He is doing it with such absurd statements

as "if Woodward thought it was so bad he should have gone public", or the classic, "if Woodward thought it was so bad, he should have gone to the authorities"

I just don't know anymore

[Ms. Toad]

52. That still has nothing to do with Woodward's moral obligation to disclose.

Excusing his failure because it would not have changed anything is rationalizing his behavior.

All of us have an obligation to act morally, whether we believe it will overcome evil or not. Excusing the failure to do so on the basis that evil will prevail anyway is rationalization. It really is that simple - and no matter how convincing your argument that it would not have made any practical difference, it still does not excuse Woodward's failure, it only rationalizes it.

[still_one]

53. Ok, I understand your point

[George II]

10. I agree. It's amazing how so many people are trying to blame WOODWARD for trump's ineptitude!

[mobeau69]

13. Hell, they're trying to blame Biden!

[tblue37]

17. Ineptitude is a generous interpretation. He didn't care if people died. He just wanted to

protect his chances for reelection.

[Ms. Toad]

21. Blame is not binary. There is plenty of blame to go around.

The decision not to disclose this information was an immoral decision. The reality that Trump is a vile, evil person does not relieve others of their moral obligaiton to make decisions that have the potential to save thousands or hundreds of thousands of lives.

[Marie Marie]

14. Exactly. The tapes are now out and has Trump rushed to put together a plan - any plan to deal with

Covid? NO, of course not. He is still anti-mask, anti-science, holding super spreader rallies while still having no national plan to fight the pandemic. He didn't act because he was too lazy and in over his head. And, his followers are still following his lead - just as they would have done months ago if Woodward had spoken out sooner. The smart citizens were listening to the experts, and the stupid were listening to the Idiot. Nothing would have changed.

[spanone]

20. I totally agree.

[healthnut7]

25. I agree!!

I know some think he should have reported the stuff Trump said sooner. I think he made the calculated decision to do it now 2 months before the election to try to rid the USA of Trump. I think he will let more stuff out maybe every week just to coat the airways with Trump's stupidity. We can only hope so.

[ChoppinBroccoli]

27. His Warnings Would Have Been Met With The Same Response As Hillary's Warnings

What gives his words power is being able to hear them and then compare them to the EVIDENCE of what has actually happened. Hillary tried to warn us 4 years ago what would happen. She was scoffed at. But she predicted literally EVERYTHING that happened. Woodward would have been scoffed at too, and it would have changed nothing.

The problem is that we still have 1/3 of the population that can look at the evidence and simply dismiss it by clapping their hands over their ears and screaming, "FAKE NEWS!!!"

[moondust]

30. On February 7

the tape of him saying CV is more deadly than the flu was recorded. At that time very few people knew what this was all about and would be making up their minds about it for some time to come as the evidence accumulated. In those very early days if the tape had been released and still undecided people heard him candidly admit to Woodward that it was very serious, it would then have been much harder for him to lie his way out of it and pretend it's not serious as he has done ever since.

[still_one]

32. On January 18, 2020, Alex Azar tries to tell trump how serious it was

January 18, 2020: Alex Azar tries to speak to President Trump about the outbreak for the first time. President Trump ignores the warning.

Alex Azar speaks to President Trump on the phone for the first time about the virus. President Trump instead asks to discuss vaping and whether flavored vaping products would return to the market. The Wall Street Journal confirms that officials debriefed on the call said Trump dismissed coronavirus concerns as alarmist, but Azar tells the Journal that the president had never been dismissive.

“Trump’s advisers struggled to get him to take the virus seriously, according to multiple officials with knowledge of meetings among those advisers and with the president,” the Washington Post reports.

Here is the timeline:

https://www.justsecurity.org/69650/timeline-of-the-coronavirus-pandemic-and-u-s-response/

[moondust]

35. The media would have had the tape.

And every time he lied and failed to take it seriously (for months) they could have hammered him and the public with his contradictions. Some might have taken the candid version seriously enough to wear masks and social distance, potentially saving lives.

[LisaL]

37. They have the tape now.

What did Trump do today? Oh right, he held an indoor rally with a bunch of maskless Trumpers in attendance.
I mean seriously, he held an indoor rally with a bunch of maskless Trumpers who are apparently being totally fine with him lying about covid.
And they are still probably thinking it's a hoax.

[moondust]

39. Their minds were made up

months ago when there was nothing like his own voice to contradict his barrage of lies.

[LisaL]

40. Like I already posted, there was plenty of information

indicating this is a dangerous virus. We knew China shut the area down. It's not done for flu, is it? I never listened to whatever Trump was saying.

[moondust]

41. It's a cult.

If he says drink the Kool-Aid they drink the Kool-Aid. But what if somebody had him on tape earlier telling somebody candidly that the Kool-Aid is poison? I'm guessing some will pass on the Kool-Aid.

[still_one]

43. Trump couldn't be convicted after impeachment by the Senate, and for all his malfeasance, and

protection by the republicans, what is wrong is made to appear as "right"

After the disparaging remarks regarding our troops, the revelations in the Woodward book, and tapes from trump's own mouth, at any other time, any other president would be way behind in the polls, and it is a sad statement that isn't the case.

That is why I don't believe if Woodward had come out publicly in February, it would have changed anything

[qwlauren35]

46. I agree.

When you look at what happened in New York, it was SO OBVIOUS that there was a deadly virus. But Trump was still calling it a hoax. When all around the country, hospitals were desperate for PPE, Trump was still poo-pooing it. And as a result, we have about 30% of Americans who STILL think it's a hoax.

Nothing Woodward said would have made any difference.

NOW, however, his revelation might doom Trump's chances.

I am VERY, VERY glad that he waited.

[uponit7771]

47. ***BULL FUCKIN SHIT*** I would ... NOT ...have stepped on that fuckin plane. You don't know

... what" would've or would not have changed.

Stop, this is stupid on its face.

people just stop

[still_one]

48. What a thoughtful and mature way to discuss someting.

Perhaps you might consider blocking me since you feeling that the only way to address me is with profanity

[uponit7771]

50. Like dismissing life saving information as 'it wouldn't have changed a damned thing' ?! You don't

... know that, to intimate in anyway you don't in the slightest is beyond rude.

Peoples lives would've changed if I knew what Red Don knew in Feb, it WOULD have changed a damn thing for me.

[still_one]

51. Go find someone else to be rude with. Have a nice evening

[LisaL]

55. The question is, why would you believe what Trump was saying publicly to begin with?

NT

[uponit7771]

59. No one believed Trump its what I didn't hear was the issue. Yes, it would've made a difference to me

... to know from the professionals around Trump that CV19 was that deadly.

The "everyone knew" excuse is what McConnell and a tone of LPC is trying to float

[BigmanPigman]

49. It may have made a difference to some, but his cult still would

have gone along with whatever he told/tells them. Same old, same old. I'm sure that many would have taken it more seriously (those that NEVER believe Team tRump) but half the population (the half that never votes) doesn't give a shit about anything seriously would tune it all out like they did advice to wear masks, etc. until they are hit over the head with realistic info from many sources/countries. Americans are incredibly apathetic.

[Spazito]

56. I agree...

Nothing of substance would have changed. For those who want to put the blame on Woodward, well, just don't buy his book.

[lettucebe]

57. Of course it wouldn't have changed anything -- his timing was beautiful (to quote tRump)

[GusBob]

58. Ya it was great all them players keeping quiet and downplaying the pandemic

It worked out just fine. Everyone already knew it was serious anyhow not too many folks got sick and only a certain percentage died.

It wasnt Woodard saying the the virus was worse than the flu and highly contagious BTW. It was the guy he had on tape