General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBarrett recently wrote: the right to vote and serve on juries belongs ONLY to VIRTUOUS CITIZENS
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In her opinion she makes no mention of how such "virtuous citizen" restrictions were used after the Civil War and the passage of the Reconstruction Amendments to deny African Americans the right to vote
dchill
(38,471 posts)dalton99a
(81,451 posts)Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)They're such a mentally diseased bunch.
madamesilverspurs
(15,800 posts)Sadly, we don't even have to ask.
.
kiri
(794 posts)No Jews, no Muslims, no Atheists, no Hindus, et al,... need apply.
elleng
(130,865 posts)It's not simple, as with many legal matters.
http://media.ca7.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/rssExec.pl?Submit=Display&Path=Y2019/D03-15/C:18-1478:J:Flaum:aut:T:fnOp:N:2309276:S:0
ARGUED SEPTEMBER 7, 2018 DECIDED MARCH 15, 2019
Re: Virtuous, from page 49:
C.
While scholars have not identified eighteenth or
nineteenth century laws depriving felons of the right to bear
arms, history does show that felons could be disqualified
from exercising certain rightslike the rights to vote and
serve on juriesbecause these rights belonged only to
virtuous citizens. See THOMAS M. COOLEY, A TREATISE ON THE
CONSTITUTIONAL LIMITATIONS 29 (1st ed. 1868) (explaining
that certain classes of people were almost universally
excluded from the franchise for want of capacity or of moral
fitness); Saul Cornell, Dont Know Much About History The
Current Crisis in Second Amendment Scholarship, 29 N. KY. L.
REV. 657, 679 (2002) (identifying the right to sit on juries as
limited to those members of the polity who were deemed
capable of exercising it in a virtuous manner). Some
maintain that the right to bear arms is similarly limited by a
virtue requirement. See, e.g., Don. B. Kates Jr., The Second
Amendment: A Dialogue, 49 LAW & CONTEMP. PROBS., Winter
1986, at 143, 146 ([T]he right to arms does not preclude laws
disarming the unvirtuous citizens (i.e., criminals) or those
who, like children or the mentally unbalanced, are deemed
incapable of virtue.). On this view, the legislature can disarm
felons because of their poor character, without regard to
whether they are dangerous. See Medina, 913 F.3d at 159
(endorsing the view that the Second Amendment excludes
not only the dangerous, but also the unvirtuous) The
majority is sympathetic to this view. See Maj. Op. at 16.
The problem with this argument is that virtue exclusions
are associated with civic rightsindividual rights that
require[] citizens to act in a collective manner for distinctly
public purposes. See Saul Cornell, A New Paradigm for the
Second Amendment, 22 LAW & HIST. REV. 161, 165 (2004). For
example, the right to vote is held by individuals, but they do
not exercise it solely for their own sake; rather, they cast votes
as part of the collective enterprise of self-governance.
Similarly, individuals do not serve on juries for their own
sake, but as part of the collective enterprise of administering
justice. Some scholars have characterized the right to keep
and bear arms as a civic right, because it was one exercised
by citizens, not individuals
, who act together in a collective
manner, for a distinctly public purpose: participation in a well
regulated militia. See Cornell & DeDino, 73 FORDHAM L. REV.
at 491 ([T]he text [of the Second Amendment] fits a civic
rights model better than either the individual or collective
rights paradigms.). Saul Cornell explains:
Perhaps the most accurate way to describe the
dominant understanding of the right to bear arms in the Founding era is as a civic right. Such
a right was not something that all persons could
claim, but was limited to those members of the
polity who were deemed capable of exercising
it in a virtuous manner. Freedom of religion,
freedom of the press, trial by jury were genuinely rights belonging to individuals and
were treated differently than were civic rights
such as militia service, or the right to sit on
juries.
Cornell, 29 N. KY. L. REV. at 679 (footnotes omitted). And as a
right that was exercised for the benefit of the community (like
voting and jury service), rather than for the benefit of the
individual (like free speech or free exercise), it belonged only
to virtuous citizens.
Heller, however, expressly rejects the argument that the
Second Amendment protects a purely civic right.'>>>
Likely too complex and nuanced for many.
Roland99
(53,342 posts)Hes more of the mindset of the original interpretation of the Second Amendment, focusing on the militia aspect
elleng
(130,865 posts)an 'originalist' like Scalia (for whom she clerked.)
There are some interesting 'discussions' between Scalia and Breyer (and probably Ginsburg) on the subject.
SamKnause
(13,091 posts)It is the Christian version or definition of virtuous she is using.
http://www.britannica.com/topic/virtue-in-Christianity
elleng
(130,865 posts)'Heller, however, expressly rejects the argument that the
Second Amendment protects a purely civic right. Moore v.
Madigan, 702 F.3d 933, 935 (7th Cir. 2012). It squarely holds
that the Second Amendment confer[s] an individual right to
keep and bear arms, Heller, 554 U.S. at 595 (emphasis added),
and it emphasizes that the Second Amendment is rooted in
the individuals right to defend himselfnot in his right to
serve in a well-regulated militia, id. at 58286. The civic
rights approach runs headlong into both propositions. See
Binderup, 836 F.3d at 371 (Hardiman, J., concurring in part and
concurring in the judgments) ([T]his virtuous-citizens-only
conception of the right to keep and bear arms is closely
associated with pre-Heller interpretations of the Second
Amendment by proponents of the sophisticated collective
rights model who rejected the view that the Amendment
confers an individual right and instead characterized the right
as a civic right
. (citation omitted)). The parties have
introduced no evidence that virtue exclusions ever applied to
individual, as opposed to civic, rights.10 And if virtue exclusions dont apply to individual rights, they dont apply
to the Second Amendment.
It bears emphasis that virtue exclusions from the exercise
of civic rights were explicit. If the right to bear arms was
similarly subject to a virtue exclusion, we would expect to see
provisions expressly depriving felons of that right toobut
we dont. By 1820, ten states constitutions included
provisions excluding or authorizing the exclusion of those
who had committed crimes, particularly felonies or so-called
infamous crimes from the franchise. See ALEXANDER
KEYSSAR, THE RIGHT TO VOTE 6263 & tbl. A.7 (Kentucky,
Vermont, Ohio, Louisiana, Indiana, Mississippi, Connecticut,
Illinois, Alabama, Missouri). By 1857, twenty-four state
constitutions included such provisions. Id. The same crimes
often made a person ineligible to serve as a witness in a legal
proceeding, id. at 62, and to serve on a jury.11'>>>
http://media.ca7.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/rssExec.pl?Submit=Display&Path=Y2019/D03-15/C:18-1478:J:Flaum:aut:T:fnOp:N:2309276:S:0
SamKnause
(13,091 posts)It does not sound like she used that definition in this decision.
Thanks for the input.
elleng
(130,865 posts)She went pretty far (legal rationale-wise) to get where she got.
SunSeeker
(51,550 posts)TheBlackAdder
(28,183 posts)secondwind
(16,903 posts)Wooden-like. It made me feel sad to see that.
riversedge
(70,186 posts)Eid Ma Clack Shaw
(490 posts).
spanone
(135,823 posts)FakeNoose
(32,633 posts)... but with the Pope's approval.
How did this woman ever get a law degree? How did she become a judge, for God's sake?
Biophilic
(3,645 posts)Sometimes I just can't get my head around what is happening in and to my country. I think I just don't want to realize how badly things have turned and how much will need to be restored before we can even start making things better. This woman as a Supreme Court nominee with so little time for hearings...I just don't know. I shake my head thinking perhaps I'm hallucinating that members of a major political party will support this. I just can't grok it. "Virtuous citizens" what the fuck!! ????
MustLoveBeagles
(11,591 posts)dchill
(38,471 posts)MustLoveBeagles
(11,591 posts)You're probably correct.
Grasswire2
(13,568 posts)"virtuous citizens" is a phrase from Jim Crow era -- meaning "white folk" without saying so.
not_the_one
(2,227 posts)vir·tu·ous
/ˈvərCHo͞oəs/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
adjective: virtuous
having or showing high moral standards.
"she considered herself very virtuous because she neither drank nor smoked"
MarcA
(2,195 posts)tarheelsunc
(2,117 posts)These people claim to be all about interpreting the Constitution as written, but they are always just making shit up. Last thing we need is politicians deciding who is worthy to vote them out of power.