Prostitution is Violence

[redqueen]

Many people have the opinion that if only prostitution were legal, sex workers would be protected from the violence that is so routine for the vast majority of sex workers. Sadly, this is not the case.

Even when prostitution is legal, prostitutes are murdered, beaten, and mistreated by those who buy sex. In addition, where the idea that buying access to someone's body for sex is an acceptable practice becomes commonplace, the demand goes up. Unfortunately, not all of the people who seek to buy sex like to wear condoms. Some of them enjoy engaging in physical violence. Some of them prefer underage prostitutes. Some of them demand that the prostitute perform acts that legally protected prostitutes will not engage in. Those sex buyers create a demand that will be filled.

In my opinion, our primary responsibility as a society is to protect those people who are coerced or trafficked into allowing sex buyers to have access to their bodies. According to most studies, most of the people involved in this 'industry' are from backgrounds which included abuse. Many have issues with drug addiction which also serve to trap them in this violent and abusive situation. In my opinion our first responsibility is not pretending that the situation these people are in is somehow simply a type of 'collateral damage' that must be tolerated so that 'happy hookers' and the sex buyers who use them can do as they please.

The only way to protect the majority of sex workers is to reduce demand. The only way to do that is to do away with the idea that buying access to someone's body for sexual gratification is a socially acceptable practice.

No one is entitled to use another person's body. Everyone has sexual needs, but most people who are unable to form a relationship (however long lasting or meaningful) in order to fulfill those needs with another person manage to get by using masturbation. The idea that for some people, masturbation simply is not good enough, and they absolutely must have access to another person's body, is illogical and unfounded.

As many of you know, in Sweden they have instituted a revolutionary method of dealing with the problems caused by prostitution. By criminalizing the buying of sex, they target the demand. By addressing the very idea of the acceptability of the practice of buying sex, they have reduced demand. Sweden and the countries which have followed suit have become undesirable locations for human traffickers. More countries are looking into this model of dealing with prostitution, as well as individual states here in the US.

Please keep in mind that simply making prostitution legal does not solve many of the problems which come along with commodifying sex. In fact it seems to make things worse for more people than it protects, to whatever degree that it does protect them.

[Pacafishmate]

1. What is this vioence that you speak of?

Good luck trying to reduce demand for something that is a biological necessity. That's the type of feel-good waste of time plan that will never work.

[redqueen]

3. You are unaware that prostitutes are beaten,

raped, and murdered? That it is a day-to-day risk they face?

[Pacafishmate]

6. You typed the title, only you know what I meant.

In response to the violence, I'd say that just because some prostitues are beaten does not mean that the solution is banning the entire practice. I guess this is a fundamental misunderstanding that liberals are prone to having. Banning things we don't like looks good on paper, but in practice causes more harm than good. Look at drugs for example. The drug war has failed and not only is it costing us money, but it fuels crime by giving money to criminals. Making prostitution illegal will likely increase the amount of crime perpetrated against prostitues by forcing them into the shadows. The reason crime is committed against them is because the criminals feel that prostitutes are invisible to society, no one cares and no one will do anything about their crime. By forcing prostitues and prostitution into the light, criminals will not see prostitues as a target.

What you have is a problem with the idea of buying sex. Just stop making posts like this and admit it. You're being disingenous.

[redqueen]

11. Drugs are not people.

If you look at the situation in Sweden, Denmark and Norway, you will see that criminalizing the buying of sex works.

[FreakinDJ]

8. ONLY because it is Illegal

[redqueen]

9. Untrue.

Prostitutes who work in brothels are also beaten and murdered, just not as often as the ones who work to fill the demand for underground prostitutes.

[TheKentuckian]

335. Women in all professions are assaulted and murdered, how much more often

are brothel workers in harms way versus say quick stop clerks?

Hell, what are the numbers compared to the general population? I'd bet that there are more assaults in bars than brothels, the odds of getting away with such is much, much higher. The difference between the illegal sector and the legal practice has got to be quite extreme despite the obvious unreliable factor for numbers on anything underground.

[redqueen]

337. Prostitutes have a death rate 400% higher than women in any other profession.

That only includes the deaths that are reported. Many prostitutes are murdered and never found.

[seabeyond]

13. is having a man a biological necessity for a woman? i guess the same demand is there for male

prostitutes serving women. or is it just a necessity for men?

[redqueen]

19. Women have not been socialized to have this particular type of entitlement.

Perhaps some have, somewhere. I'm not aware of it causing any problems like the situation with human trafficking, though.

[seabeyond]

23. the poster state having a body was a biological necessity. i am assuming he means both genders.

if that is the case, then there should be the demand of prostitutes for women. of course there is not. so the choice is

it is not a biological necessity for women, only men.

or

having a body to buy is not a biologial necessity for either gender

that is all

[redqueen]

27. Oh ugh, I missed that edit.

When I replied it was just the subject line, no message.

No, it isn't a biological necessity to use another person's body for gratification. That's just laughable.

[Pacafishmate]

44. Sex is a biological necessity. If someone can't get it without buying

they will buy it. The only way to stop that is some sort of mind control. Good luck with that.

[redqueen]

52. No, release is a need. Sex with another person is not.

Most people, whether due to their personal disagreement with the idea of buying access to a person's body, their reluctance to pay for sex, or their fear of contracting some kind of disease, will use masturbation to fulfill their need for sexual release.

[Scout]

53. how is it a necessity? does one DIE without sex?

one NEEDS food, water, shelter from the elements ... sex, not so much.

one may WANT it, one may have a biological urge to engage in it, but it is not strictly speaking a biological necessity for the survival of an individual.

yes, of course, if NO ONE ever had sex again eventually the species would die out.

[ZombieHorde]

440. Technically speaking, even food, water, and shelter are not necessities.

We don't need to exist, we just want to.

[seabeyond]

69. then again i ask, what about all those women that dont have a man? where is the necessity for the

male prostitute to service them?

[Zalatix]

104. There is no such necessity. Almost no women ever buy male prostitutes.

[seabeyond]

109. so, it is not biological necessity for women, but is for man? it is not biological necessity for

either?

we pretty much know the answer, just fighting tooth and nail to get a man to say it.

[Zalatix]

118. Huh? Sex is not a biological necessity for either species. That said,

a woman can go without sex for decades without much fuss.

Mentally speaking, it wears worse on a man than a woman.

Is this what you want to hear a man admit?

[seabeyond]

121. really? and you would know this why? cause you are a man? as a woman, i say you are wrong

i say the woman needs that orgasm more than a man. why we can have many and you only one.

[Zalatix]

127. Anecdotally speaking? I don't see too many celibate nuns getting pregnant, or molesting kids.

But you never know, there could be a scandal lurking around the corner...

[seabeyond]

130. maybe women are raised in a manner we do not feel the same entitlement and make do with a

vibrator.

maybe, society has not told us our sexuality is be all end all of the universe and we learn to adjust.

maybe, we have grown up hearing tht our sexuality is secondary.

[Boojatta]

176. "for either species"

It seems that Freud might have been right about Freudian slips.

Alternatively, you had something reasonable in mind and I simply failed to understand what you wrote.

I hope we can agree that men and women belong to the same species.

[Zalatix]

187. Yes, I booboo'd. I meant, either GENDER, not species!

[dawg]

183. It's not a necessity for either.

And the amount of desire varies from individual to individual. Some women are very highly sexed and some men can happily go without forever.

But no one just *has* to have sex. At least not for biological reasons.

[seabeyond]

194. i agree. thanks. nt

[dawg]

199. The fact that I'm not dead is proof that I'm right.

[seabeyond]

201. me, too. me, too. but them days are long past

i did mine earlier, you are doing yours later. happens to most all of us sometime in life.

[Matariki]

197. So the Dali Lama is a zombie? And all those nuns teaching in catholic schools?

Since sex is a "biological necessity" I'm assuming they must have died from the lack thereof.

How long does it take to die from lack of sex? How many months? Or years?

You premise is really dumb.

[eridani]

246. They will? What's wrong with Rosy Palm and her five daughters? n/t

[FrodosPet]

438. Self service

Sure sex is a quick and easy stress relief. And it can be a warm part of a human relationship. But biological necessity? As a shy, less than handsome man, I usually go years between binary experiences, and months between self-service. I'm still alive. And I DON'T use the services of a prostitute.

So sex =/= food, water, and air.

[MineralMan]

124. While not nearly as common, there are male prostitutes who

only have women as customers. For most men, sex with a woman is not a biological necessity. Most men do not have sex with prostitutes even once in their life. I never have, and wouldn't even consider such a thing. Some men apparently believe it is a necessity. I don't know any men like that, though.

[seabeyond]

132. it is easy enough for me to agree with all you say. it is obvious

but then.....

[iverglas]

64. good luck with that nonsense

Good luck trying to reduce demand for something that is a biological necessity.

Biological necessity? You mean that men who do not have sex, what, die?

Eating is a "biological necessity" for individuals. Engaging in sex acts is not.

Perhaps you are actually suggesting that men seek out prostitutes in order to propagate the species.

[Boojatta]

184. "suggesting that men seek out prostitutes in order to propagate the species."

Well, you must admit that the odds are in favor of there being at least one Catholic country where most of the prostitutes are Catholics.

Everything below has been added to handle anticipated accusations of anti-Catholic bigotry:

Perhaps I should add that I'm making an allusion to Vatican policy, not to the beliefs or practices of most Catholics. In other words, Catholic prostitutes use the rhythm method because condoms are too close to a sure thing, and sex is only for reproduction.

Personally, I believe that the bond between parents is important for a species (human beings) that has a relatively long period before adulthood is reached, and that loving, consensual sex between the parents strengthens that bond.

[Fawke Em]

2. [phone]

K & R

[surfdog]

4. Marriage ='s violence

Marriage is legal yet spouses are murdered and beaten all the time

Maybe we should ban marriage

[lapislzi]

45. Nice straw man, but no.

Sex workers are subject to risks unique to their line of work. Domestic violence is a crime, a specific crime, and can be prosecuted exactly as such.

There is very little protection for sex workers.

While I disagree with the OP in that I don't think sex work can ever be eliminated, I think it should be decriminalized, regulated, and yes, the buyers prosecuted, not the sellers.

[Lance_Boyle]

5. Prostitution is customer service work.

Similar in terms of exposure to violence to taxi driving, graveyard shift convenience store clerking, or pizza delivery driving. Some people are assholes - when you work in customer service, you are exposed to them. Legalization and regulation are two good ways to provide opportunities for harm reduction. Aggressive prohibition is not.

[redqueen]

12. Increasing demand for taxi drivers, overnight workers, etc. is in no way like increasing demand for

underground prostitution. Those workers include children. They include people who subject themselves to being beaten, raped, and infected with diseases.

[Lance_Boyle]

22. key word = 'underground'

You've undone your own argument with your refreshingly honest inclusion of that word. This is why prostitution needs to be legal and regulated, like taxi driving.

[redqueen]

31. How does that undo anything? Where it is legal, demand goes up.

Where demand goes up, coerced and trafficked people are victimized at higher rates.

If you view those people who are trafficked and coerced as just collateral damage, and your'e fine with that, then we will have to agree to disagree.

[lapislzi]

48. Not necessarily

If decriminalized and regulated, buyers would know that they will be subject to prosecution similar to that of domestic abusers.

If the "spanking" (or whatever) is consensual and paid for, no foul. But the ordinary sex workers should be protected from unnecessary risks.

Sex workers have been around for millennia. It's disingenuous to expect them to disappear, as disingenuous as it would be to expect abortions to disappear.

Safe, legal, and rare should apply to more activities.

[Freddie Stubbs]

103. Does Nevada have a higher rate of victimized trafficked people than the other 49 states?

[iverglas]

134. well, someone has written a book on that subject

http://www.amazon.ca/Prostitution-Trafficking-Nevada-Making-Connections/dp/0615162053

Product Description
Prostitution and Trafficking in Nevada addresses the scope of the sex industry in Nevada, including human rights violations against women in the Nevada legal brothels. The book describes how the multibillion-dollar illegal sex industry in Las Vegas works. Sex trafficking from within and outside of the US, advertising for prostitution, political corruption, pornography, organized crime and the constant demand of men for paid sex - all contribute to prostitution and trafficking in Nevada.

If you care to google as I did, you might answer your question. People who choose to participate in discussions often want to inform themselves first. I found that prostitution trafficking nevada gave me a good start.

The Guardian (you know, the progressive press) weighs in with a discussion of the book:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/sep/07/usa.gender

During a two-year investigation, the author, Melissa Farley, visited eight legal brothels in Nevada, interviewing 45 women and a number of brothel owners. Far from enjoying better conditions than those who work illegally, the prostitutes she spoke to are often subject to slave-like conditions.

Described as "pussy penitentiaries" by one interviewee, the brothels tend to be in the middle of nowhere, out of sight of ordinary Nevadans. (Brothels are officially allowed only in counties with populations of fewer than 400,000, so prostitution remains an illegal - though vast - trade in conurbations such as Las Vegas.) The brothel prostitutes often live in prison-like conditions, locked in or forbidden to leave.

"The physical appearance of these buildings is shocking," says Farley. "They look like wide trailers with barbed wire around them - little jails." The rooms all have panic buttons, but many women told her that they had experienced violent and sexual abuse from the customers and pimps.

Do read that article. I can't quote what I'd like to here because of length restrictions. It doesn't address the trafficking aspect directly, but you could always buy the book.

The conditions described by people without a vested interest in these brothels more resemble the lives of African-Americans on plantations than the lives of free individuals.

Not all Nevadans are sanguine about the situation (and we can leave aside any discussion of Harry Reid):

http://www.nevadacoalition.org/
http://www.nevadacoalition.org/content/view/35/1/

Massage parlor prostitution is where human trafficking happens in Las Vegas

Most taxi drivers will tell you that the majority of local massage parlors are fronts for prostitution. Many parlors offer male patrons what is called a "Happy Ending," or in some cases a "Full Girlfriend Experience" for an extra fee. These specialties are not taught in accredited massage therapy schools.

... Casino insiders tell INSIDE VEGAS that trips to Nye County take gamblers away from the tables for too long, so quickies with escorts or Asian masseuses are tolerated in the hotels or just down the street in our town's neighborhood shopping centers.

This may be the reason that Clark County District Attorney David Roger has joined with the NBMT commissioners in ignoring the problem. The commissioners are appointed by the governor. The governor and DA solicit campaign contributions from the casino owners who don't like it when their gamblers lollygag for half the night and spend thousands at Sheri's, or the Chicken Ranch sixty miles away. ...

http://www.sheldensays.com/Com-seventy-seven.htm

The news item was about a sting called “Operation Doll House” that targeted “residential brothels” which resulted in the arrest of the sheriff and undersheriff from San Mateo County in Northern California. These two were staying at Mandalay Bay and apparently the Sheriff wanted some “Vegas action” (which almost always means using the services of women). He asked a cab driver to take them to where he could get a “massage” (and we all know what that usually means!). The driver took them to a very upscale neighborhood in the southern part of Clark County. By his own admission the sheriff thought this was perfectly legal, stating that "I believed I was going to a legitimate business. It was not.” Yeah, right!

During this raid two minors were also arrested. This brings me to the purpose of this commentary: the trafficking in young girls for purposes of prostitution. This is a worldwide billion dollar industry involving tens of thousands of victims annually, many of whom are children. Which is not surprising since in a capitalist economy anything and everything is a “commodity” for sale – including our own children. The FBI estimates that more than 100,000 children and young women are trafficked in America today. The average age is about 11.

It has an impact right here in Las Vegas where literally tens of thousands of young girls come into the city to conduct their business. The vast majority are not from Las Vegas. How do they get here? Some are sent airline tickets paid for by pimps; some are driven up by pimps from other cities like LA and Phoenix. Metro police arrest between 10 and 20 girls each month; there are probably ten times that number who are not caught.

Will that do for a start?

[LadyHawkAZ]

255. I'd like to know how many times Farley has to be discredited

before her schlock stops turning up. No reflection on you for googling it, but she's not a reputable source.

An actual, accurate look got published by two actual, accredited UNLV sociologists:
http://faculty.unlv.edu/brents/research/violence.pdf
which I'm sure I have posted on DU before but which somehow never seems to get read. I've posted it in several places on the internet, and it doesn't get read there either. The same thing happens when I post the Seib study- doesn't get read. There are days when I wonder why I bother to keep posting this stuff. No one really wants to know.
VEGAS has a trafficking problem, because VEGAS has not legalized, isn't regulated and has a good cash trade going jailing/fining the workers and clients. The legal areas do not. Trafficking in the brothels is zero; they are watchdogged so heavily that it's not worth it.

[redqueen]

288. Her work is controversial.

Some of her studies are considered to be less than thorough.

She has not been discredited.

[LadyHawkAZ]

362. Depends on how you view the term discredited

http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2010/2010onsc4264/2010onsc4264.html

"[353] I found the evidence of Dr. Melissa Farley to be problematic. Although Dr. Farley has conducted a great deal of research on prostitution, her advocacy appears to have permeated her opinions. For example, Dr. Farley’s unqualified assertion in her affidavit that prostitution is inherently violent appears to contradict her own findings that prostitutes who work from indoor locations generally experience less violence. Furthermore, in her affidavit, she failed to qualify her opinion regarding the causal relationship between post-traumatic stress disorder and prostitution, namely that it could be caused by events unrelated to prostitution.
[354] Dr. Farley’s choice of language is at times inflammatory and detracts from her conclusions. For example, comments such as, “prostitution is to the community what incest is to the family,” and “just as pedophiles justify sexual assault of children....men who use prostitutes develop elaborate cognitive schemes to justify purchase and use of women” make her opinions less persuasive.
[355] Dr. Farley stated during cross-examination that some of her opinions on prostitution were formed prior to her research, including, “that prostitution is a terrible harm to women, that prostitution is abusive in its very nature, and that prostitution amounts to men paying a woman for the right to rape her.”
[356] Accordingly, for these reasons, I assign less weight to Dr. Farley’s evidence."

That's a judge, calling her out for lying about her own findings and allowing her personal dislike to color her "research".
There's also a petition in front of the APA right now to have her membership revoked due to deliberately skewing her data, and they've got a good chance of success. I sincerely hope they do.

[redqueen]

364. Thankfully there are thousands of human rights workers who agree with Dr. Farley.

Those who work to maintain the status quo will have a lot of work on their hands trying to discredit everyone they disagree with.

[LadyHawkAZ]

367. I generally do disagree with outright liars

especially when their garbage is getting people killed. I would expect anyone calling themselves an advocate to do the same. Thankfully, there are those like the judge in my post who also think that way. Thankfully there are thousands of other human rights workers who recognize her blather for what it is.

And a side note: what Farley advocates for *IS* the status quo: illegal prostitution, dead sex workers, high profits for the legal system, continuing abuse, ruined lives. That's the current conditions. To my mind, that kind of person is a murderer and a walking human rights violation. I can accept that her opinions might be emotionally appealing to people who have a personal distaste for the idea, and that those people genuinely believe that what they are advocating is helping. They don't know better, and because of the emotional element it's hard to convince them otherwise with solid facts. Farley knows better, but she lies about it anyway. And people die. That's what sickens me.

[redqueen]

370. I can differentiate between lies and facts, thank you.

Farley is not the only one doing this work. Attacking her as you have, and acting as if that discredits anything she said, ever ever ever, is simply disingenuous.

I'm glad she provides a convenient target for you to act as if everything she ever said was so very completely and totally wrong. Try addressing post 143. Attack that woman as a liar and 'murderer' who is advocating 'dead sex workers'.

[kiva]

374. She has discredited herself.

[div class="excerpt" style="border: solid 1px #cccccc; border-radius:0.5385em; box-shadow: 3px 3px 3px #cccccc inset, 1px 1px 1px #cccccc;"]Farley has also been criticized for accepting significant funding from anti-prostitution organizations. She has acknowledged that 30% of funding for a prominent research project into prostitution was provided by the United States Department of State Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons, an agency with an outspoken policy which conflates prostitution with trafficking.However, Farley has stated that such funding has not in any way swayed her research, in particular its methods or conclusions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melissa_Farley

If a group argued that smoking wasn't so bad, and accepted 30% of their funding from tobacco companies, we'd laugh that research out of the room, and rightfully so. There are many respected researchers who disagree...researchers who have not taken money from those who advocate for their position, who are far more believable.

[redqueen]

376. And there are many other researchers who agree.

Researchers who have not taken money from governmental organizations that are now for whatever reason analogous with tobacco companies.

[kiva]

380. But the researcher in question was Farley.

And yes, any group that pushes a particular point of view, whether government, private, or non-profit, does bring that opinion into discussions about who that group chooses to fund.

[LadyHawkAZ]

381. Try addressing post #155

you answered it, but focused solely on what I said about Farley, and totally ignored the study. You could also try addressing post #261. Those are facts. The link you offered in #143 was full of one person's opinions- and yes, if she is offering her opinions as facts and ignoring actual facts, I see her as a murderer too.

From your article:
http://www.lau.edu.lb/news-events/news/archive/human_rights_expert_says_suppo/

“Prostitution is the keystone in holding up a patriarchal society,”~ this is histrionic trash: religious and economic control, not sex, do that. A large part of the reason prostitution is so demonized is that it bypasses both of those important controls.

“It’s a gender-specific crime, where the buyer is almost a hundred percent male,” Ekberg said. She added that it is “the factor” that “men use to control women and the main barrier for women to have equal citizenship and full rights.” also trash: the above two factors are what do that; prostitution actually bypasses those controls. The reason it is a barrier to equal citizenship and rights is because of PEOPLE LIKE HER who insist that prostitutes are less than fully human.

"She recalled that 30 years ago it was difficult for women who were raped to get their rights in court. Today, activists are fighting for the prosecution of male clients and for the women prostitutes themselves to be seen as victims." I find her omission of traffickers very telling. Her emphasis is on 1) jailing men for sex and 2) training these less-than-human mindless victim-women to be (their version of) fully human. It reminds me of the way people used to discuss blacks and Native Americans- not really people like us, not as smart as us, but with careful Christian training and a few beatings we can teach them to be good servants. Also, comparing consensual acts to rape is good emotional propaganda, but it's false equivalency and an insult to both rape victims and consenting partners. Telling language and telling omission.

"Women who turn to prostitution should not be judged as the vast majority of them were abused as children, said Ekberg, adding their situation should not be seen as a choice." not as smart as us, not able to make choices, same dehumanizing language, see above.

Enough of that, I can't even finish the article right now, it's disgusting and her opinions are not new. Don't get me wrong, I do understand that your motivation is a good one and you're trying to do what you feel is right. I understand that. But the facts say you're going about it the wrong way.

[redqueen]

383. You're asserting that when people agree with you, they're citing facts,

and when they disagree, they're talking trash.

You're reading into this human rights expert's words, too. She didn't say 'not as smart as us' or anything else you alleged. She is simply saying that consent is a problematic concept when most of the people in an industry are experiencing PTSD, often exacerbating that condition in the course of their working as prostitutes.

You are personalizing her statements and twisting her words. "less than human mindless victim women"...

Not everyone is so invested in skewing statements and spinning them blue. I prefer to converse with those people. I don't consider your choosing to twist her words and personalize her comments to be a genuine form of discussion.

[LadyHawkAZ]

393. No,

that's a generalization. The reason I agree with other people (not the other way around) is that they are using facts, and they are the same facts I've found in my own research.

I'm reading into the woman's words exactly what is there: she is making prostitutes a "lesser". Not smart/adult/human enough to consent. Sex with them is a crime because they are not smart/adult/human enough to consent. Victim-women that need responsible adult guidance. That's a lesser person, no matter how you want to twist it. It's adults reduced to the level of children.

Even the emphasis on women, in an industry 20% male, is telling, because it's easier to convince an audience that women can't make a decision and need to be guided.

Hasn't anyone but me read Bernays? This is propaganda. It's feeding on the worst parts of human emotion and conditioning to make an unjust cause into a heroic one.

I think what you prefer is to converse with people who don't disagree. You won't address the links I've posted. That tells me a lot.

Have a nice day.

[redqueen]

395. You claim that she's making prostitutes a lesser.

So are we, as liberals, making all disadvantaged groups a 'lesser' when we discuss sweatshop workers, child laborers, etc?

That's exactly what republicans say we're doing, when we talk about aid for minorities, affirmative action, etc.

[LadyHawkAZ]

413. You are refusing to distinguish between consent and force.

nice strawman though. Also:

You are refusing to address any of the many posts, by me and others, citing studies that directly contradict your claims.

You are refusing to provide any evidence of your claims.

You have claimed that any study not in agreement with your opinion is "happy hookers" and "everything's peachy" in total defiance of facts.

Given that, you are fairly obviously pushing an agenda that has nothing at all to do with your stated interest in protecting women (not prostitutes, a good percentage are male; just women) from violence.

You have no interest in facts or statistics, and I have no interest in talking to you.

Have a nice day.

[redqueen]

424. You're twisting words, misrepresenting arguments, and ignoring my points

in favor of pushing your own agenda.

I think I already said I wasn't really all that interested in talking with you after you so blatantly misrepresented the human rights expert's arguments.

I also think it's cute how you ignored my point about sweatshop workers and other minorities.

You have a good day too.

[PVnRT]

275. Only one county in Nevada (which does not include Vegas) has legalized prostitution

It's not really a good test case for proving how great legalization could be. Most of the bad shit happens in Vegas and Reno, where it's technically illegal anyway.

[LadyHawkAZ]

371. It's actually only illegal in 5 counties

Clark, Lincoln, Washoe, Douglas and Carson City.

Legal in all the rest.

[daleanime]

26. I don't think you read the post you're responsing to....

Taxi drivers, etc... are similiar. They are all service related-meaning the customer received the work, not an object. No other relation is given.

Nor do they seem to be supporting the practice of beating or raping anyone-instead they look to be advocating forcing the practice(prostitution) out in the open and sunshine has allways been a good disinfectant.

[redqueen]

33. Sex buyers who refuse to use condoms, enjoy inflicting pain, or enjoy practices legal prostitutes

will not engage in, will not go away.

As demand goes up, the increased demand will be met by those who profit from pimping out underground prostitutes. No matter how many legal prostitutes you provide, you will not ever end the violence against those who are forced or coerced to cater to the sex buyers who will not buy sex from legal prostitutes.

I cannot view those people as collateral damage.

[daleanime]

41. Why not?

I went away.

[redqueen]

47. Why can I not simply write them off as collateral damage?

Or why will sex buyers who refuse to use condoms, like to beat prostitutes, or like to engage in practices to which no legal prostitute will agree to participate continue to provide a market for illegal prostitutes, even where prostitution is made legal?

[lapislzi]

57. If I was a sex worker in a world where sex work was legal

There is no chance I could be lured underground to cater to the desires of buyers who want to hurt or abuse me.

I could only imagine that the supply would dry up because prostitutes would prefer the legal, protected work environment. Maybe I'm naive, but don't workers prefer a workplace where they're safe as opposed to a sweatshop?

[redqueen]

62. Do you disagree with the widely-held opinion that most sex workers come from backgrounds of abuse?

Pimps recruit runaways, drug addicts, etc.

Just because you would not be susceptible to being lured underground, that does not change the fact that my primary concern is for those people.

The supply will not dry up. The evidence for this is found anywhere there is legal prostitution.

[lapislzi]

71. Haven't seen the stats, but it seems logical

There is so much that has to change in order for sex work to disappear, starting with patriarchy and the tacit belief that women and their bodies are the property of any male who asserts ownership.

Women must be taught one girl at a time that they have ownership of their bodies.

One of the first things I ever taught my daughter about sex was that "YOU control the sexual experience. Who, when, where, and why. Nobody else."

When that rule is not followed, there's trouble.

[seabeyond]

83. what happens is the demand increases, not that many women willing to be prostitutes

so the supply is not there. the pimp will provide the supply thru sex slaves and child sex slaves.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

377. Just like marijuana.

.

[Remember Me]

256. Hah! YOU think you'd have some CHOICE in the matter?

Hardly.

[PVnRT]

276. Of course they prefer better working conditions

On the other hand, if you're desperate and have nowhere else to go, guess what?

[FrodosPet]

439. Taxi driving and prostitution

Taxi driving and prostitution do have being beaten, raped, and infected with diseases in common.

Well, not as much rape for male drivers, but being robbed, beaten, and killed? Severe job hazards for both occupations. If you're in a car for 12 to 14 hours a day with people from across the globe, unless you have a super strong immune system, you WILL catch several respiratory diseases in your career.

[whathehell]

72. I have yet to hear of a customer service worker who was beaten or killed for "poor performance".

Those just get fired.

[iverglas]

85. I'm sorry, but: sez you

Legalization and regulation are two good ways to provide opportunities for harm reduction. Aggressive prohibition is not.

Legalization and regulation would probably reduce harms to prostitutes.

You may wish to argue that legalization would entail no harms of its own. I would not agree.

Aggressive prohibition on the model that has been practised for decades in our societies is not an effective way of reducing harms to prostitutes.

Agggressive prosecution of men who would purchase the services of prostitutes -- not of women who would provide the services -- is an entirely different matter.

Where I'm at, men apprehended soliciting prostitutes are offered the option of attending "john school", one of the diversion measures used in the criminal justice system. They learn about the lives of the women they are exploiting, and the harms to the communities they intrude into in their quest for women to provide them with services. Like this might not already be clear to them? How does this deter other men from following in their footsteps? -- general deterrence being a legitimate aim of criminal law, and this being an instance where it might actually operate, since many of the men involved have something to lose if prosecuted.

Here's a primer on the Swedish situation:

http://www.justicewomen.com/cj_sweden.html

Unlike virtually anyone else here, I've actually done a lot of reading of scholarly material relating to prostitution, and trafficking in women, in the course of my professional work.

Organized crime is still heavily involved in prostitution in the Netherlands, where it is legal. Women are still trafficked into the Netherlands, and Australia, for example, for the purposes of prostitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Netherlands

When the Dutch government legalized prostitution in 2000, it was to protect the women by giving them work permits, but authorities now fear that this business is out of control: "We’ve realized this is no longer about small-scale entrepreneurs, but that big crime organizations are involved here in trafficking women, drugs, killings and other criminal activities", said Job Cohen, the former mayor of Amsterdam.[7] Recently, officials have noticed an increase in violence centered on this irregular industry, and have blamed this increase on the illegal immigration of individuals into Amsterdam to participate in the sex industry: "The guys from Eastern Europe bring in young and frightened women; they threaten them and beat them", said a resident of De Wallen.[7] Prostitution has remained connected to criminal activities, which has led the authorities to take several measures, including detailed plans to help the prostitutes quit the sex trade and find other professions.

In 2005 Amma Asante and Karina Schaapman, two councilors for the Labour Party (Netherlands), wrote a report, "Het onzichtbare zichtbaar gemaakt" (Making the Invisible Visible). Schaapman had once been a prostitute and was getting information about the influx of organized crime and violence into the business. Other reports came out around the same time. They concluded that a large number of prostitutes in Amsterdam were being forced to work and were being abused by pimps and criminal gangs, and that the goals of legalization were failing.

In response to the problems associated with the involvement of organized crime into the sex trade, the Dutch government has decided to close numerous prostitution businesses. Concerned about organized crime, money laundering and human trafficking, Amsterdam officials under Mayor Cohen denied the license renewals of about 30 brothels in the Amsterdam red light district De Wallen in 2006; the brothel owners appealed. To counter negative news reports, the district organized an open house day in 2007 and a statue to an unknown sex worker was unveiled, "intended to honor those employed in the industry world-wide." In September 2007 it was announced that the city of Amsterdam was buying several buildings in the red light district from Charles Geerts in order to close about a third of the windows.

At the end of 2008, Mayor Cohen announced plans to close half of the city’s 400 prostitution windows because of suspected criminal gang activity. The mayor is also closing some of the city’s 70 marijuana cafes and sex clubs. This comes at the same time as the Government's decision to ban the sale of "magic mushrooms" and the closure of all coffee shops situated near schools. Nevertheless, Mayor Cohen has noted, "It is not that we want to get rid of our red-light district. We want to reduce it. Things have become unbalanced and if we do not act we will never regain control."

In 2009 the Dutch justice ministry announced the appointment of a special public prosecutor charged with closing down prostitution windows and coffee shops connected to organized crime syndicates.

I mean, there's no organized crime involvement in legal gambling in the US, right?

Do johns check prostitutes' IDs to make sure they are legal residents and have reached the age of consent? Why would they? Their concern is the best service for the lowest price. Trafficked or otherwise exploited women, and young girls, are going to come cheaper than those self-actualized happy hookers.

To imagine that legalizing prostitution is going to end trafficking in women and other exploitation of women, and of underage girls, is to live in a dream world that only those who think only of themselves, or are for some reason overly concerned about the interests of those who think only of themselves, would choose to inhabit.

[Warren DeMontague]

7. You seem to be under the impression that words can mean whatever you want them to mean.

Even if you make the case that prostitution is invariably associated with violence, even when it's legal, that does not mean that prostitution IS violence, any more than war is peace, freedom is slavery or (thanks, Andrea!) Sex is rape. Prostitution is what it is: The exchange of sex for money.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prostitution

Yes, as you may note, meaning #2 is "base or unworthy use, as of talent or ability.", which reflects general societal disapproval toward the act of prostitution. But neither #2 or #1 can possibly be interpreted to mean "Prostitution is violence".

Now, if you want to make the case that prostitution always involves violence, or is associated with violence, which seems to be your point, you might be better suited by actually saying that in your OP title, instead of coming up with cute but completely meaningless, from an English standpoint, attention-grabbing headlines. Just a suggestion.

Personally, I think that consenting adults need to be free to make their own damn decisions regarding their own damn bodies. If a woman (or man) chooses to exchange sex for money, that is HIS OR HER OWN FUCKING BUSINESS. If the problem is violence against prostitutes, then vigorously protect them or otherwise prosecute the violence.

If Prostitution=Violence, where are the statistics for violence associated with, say, the legal brothels in Nevada? They must be festering swamps of violence, since (as you claim) prostitution=violence.


....right?

[Zorra]

112. Prostitution in Mexico

Prostitution in Mexico is legal, but the laws vary by state; 18 of the 32 states of Mexico regulate prostitution. [1] Prostitution involving minors under 18 is illegal, but such activities are common and represent a serious problem.[2] Some Mexican cities have enacted tolerance zones which allow regulated prostitution and function as red light districts. In most parts of the country pimping is illegal. The government provides shelter for former prostitutes.[3]
snip---
Child prostitution is a serious problem in the country. Mexico is a destination for paedophiles who engage in child sex tourism; Mexico is one of the leading hotspots of child sexual exploitation, along with Thailand, Cambodia, India, and Brazil.[4]

A study by Unicef Mexico and the DIF/National System for Integral Family Development estimated that more than 16,000 children in Mexico were involved in prostitution (in June 2000);[5] a 2004 study by researcher Elena Azaola estimated that some 17,000 children under the age of 18 are victims of the sex trade in Mexico;[6] the State System of Integral Family Development (DIF) reported that more than 20,000 minors were victims of child prostitution in Mexico in 2005, an increase since the year 2000.[7]
snip--
Mexico is a source, transit, and destination country for persons trafficked for the purposes of commercial sexual exploitation. Poverty, corruption and the violent drug war have contributed to the proliferation of sexual slavery in the country; much of the sex business is controlled by criminal gangs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Mexico

I do understand, and respect, your point about personal liberty. Unfortunately, the ramifications of prostitution often go far beyond simple exchange. I posted this link about prostitution in Mexico because I deliberately immersed myself in that world, in a Mexican city of about 300,000 people not too far from the US border, for about a week, some years ago, to get a firsthand experience/understanding of what that world is like.

It's really, really, ugly, from my perspective. Granted, Mexico is an extreme. It's a horror for most of the women trapped in the life there, as far as I can tell. Lots of drugs(meth in particular), needles and pipes, alcohol, violence, pimps, cribs, poor nutrition, filthy conditions, sex shows (strippers. lap dances, peeps). Pimps are illegal but none of the women I spoke with worked on their own. The depth of the poverty would astound most Americans. As would the sociopathic depth of the utter corruption and depravity existent in the being of the pimp that I accompanied as I experienced his life with him for a week. He was, as far as I know, the closest to pure evil in a human being that I have ever experienced. It's impossible to convey the big picture of all this, you'd have to see the hopeless culture of violence, drugs, ignorance, and poverty that the women came from in order to understand how and why they became trapped in the life. I know this all sounds totally off the charts, but I really did have these experiences.

I can tell you that the wiki article about prostituion in Mexico that I posted here is accurate within the boundaries of what I experienced.

It's not Julia Roberts and Richard Gere starring in "Pretty Woman".

The violence that I believe redqueen refers to in part resides in the psyches of the participants in acts of prostitution, with respective differences between the male tricks and the women or the tricks and children often relative to previous experiences in their lives, respectively, and not only in the physical manifestations of violent acts committed against prostitutes. A lot of tricks have aggression, control, misogyny, and insecurity issues, and usually combinations of these issues and many of them manifest these issues because they feel that paying for sex gives them a right to act out their issues as violence against women/prostitutes.

I also see your point about legalized prostitution in Nevada, where prostitutes have legal protections and this can prevent the tricks there from being able to commit acts of violence against prostitutes at will, although there is of course still some underground prostitution going on there relative to the particular interests of the tricks that exists under the radar and beyond the protection of the law.

Prostitution, Violence Against Women,
and Posttraumatic Stress Disorder
by Melissa Farley, PhD and Howard Barkan, DrPH (*)
Women & Health, 27 (3): 37-49. © 1998 by The Haworth Press, Inc.
(Article copies available for a fee from Haworth Document Delivery Service 1-800-342-9678.)

Abstract
One hundred and thirty people working as prostitutes in San Francisco were interviewed regarding the extent of violence in their lives and symptoms of posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Fifty-seven percent reported that they had been sexually assaulted as children and 49% reported that they had been physically assaulted as children.

As adults in prostitution, 82% had been physically assaulted; 83% had been threatened with a weapon; 68% had been raped while working as prostitutes; and 84% reported current or past homelessness.

We differentiated the types of lifetime violence as childhood sexual assault; childhood physical abuse; rape in prostitution; and other (non-rape) physical assault in prostitution. PTSD severity was significantly associated with the total number of types of lifetime violence (r = .21, p = .02); with childhood physical abuse (t = 2.97, p = .004); rape in adult prostitution (Student's t = 2.77, p = .01); and the total number of times raped in prostitution (Kruskal-Wallace chi square = 13.51, p = .01). Of the 130 people interviewed, 68% met DSM III-R criteria for a diagnosis of PTSD. Eighty-eight percent of these respondents stated that they wanted to leave prostitution, and described what they needed in order to escape.

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/ProsViolPosttrauStress.html

The problem is so much more complex than simple exchange of sex for whatever, and I'm just pointing this out; I don't have any solutions, maybe what Sweden, etc is doing is a partial solution, I don't know.

[iverglas]

141. since you cite Melissa Farley ;)

See my post 154 about her book on Nevada -- legal prostitution in Nevada is not the benign bed of roses we are told it is, and it's important we counter that false message; thanks for your post too.

[Remember Me]

260. First, about Andrea --- FALSE!

Andrea Dworkin, that is. Brilliant feminist theoretician, philosopher, writer, activist... whose memory is almost ALWAYS dragged out and pissed on by men whose sense of entitlement about having sexual access to females requires that they demonize her AND misquote her. I can hardly do better at explaining the whole thing than Snopes.com:

Quote: Feminist Catharine MacKinnon said "All sex is rape."
Status: False.
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/mackinno.htm (Dworkin is covered too.)


Second, legal brothels in Nevada. You asked:


If Prostitution=Violence, where are the statistics for violence associated with, say, the legal brothels in Nevada?

While I believe that the OP engaged in a bit of hyperbole -- and you know it -- this doesn't seem to be heavy on statistics (which probably aren't that easy to get), but perhaps it will satisfy your curiosity on how dangerous prostitution can be for even LEGAL prostitutes:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=143513

[Warren DeMontague]

264. Right. It was qualified as All Sex is Rape "under patriarchy", which, in Dworkin/Mackinnon-land,

basically means "on Planet Earth".


But I'm glad you agree that Sex does not mean Rape, any more than War is Peace or Freedom is Slavery, or Prostitution is violence. Words mean things.

[seabeyond]

273. yes warren, consistently your argument. attack a womans sexuality to shut her up. not tired of it

yet? truly old and tired.

[Warren DeMontague]

363. and where did I do that?

answer: I didn't.

Anyway, I thought consistency was a virtue. We can't all be Madonna, re-inventing ourselves for each new album.

[seabeyond]

366. easy, anyway. lol. nt

[Remember Me]

434. No, you're quite wrong -- and clearly didn't read the Snopes article

For shame.

Snopes CLEARLY identifies Cal THomas as misidentifying Catherin McKinnon as the author of a book she didn't write and mis-attributing this (if ANYone said it, and that's not clear to me), "In a patriarchal society all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent."

Nor did I disavow the OP.

[Warren DeMontague]

435. Andrea Dworkin: "intercourse itself may be immune to reform"

"Romantic love, in pornography as in life, is the mythic celebration of female negation. For a woman, love is defined as her willingness to submit to her own annihilation. The proof of love is that she is willing to be destroyed by the one whom she loves, for his sake. For the woman, love is always self-sacrifice, the sacrifice of identity, will, and bodily integrity, in order to fulfill and redeem the masculinity of her lover."

"Intercourse is the pure, sterile, formal expression of men's contempt for women"

"For men I suspect that this transformation begins in the place they most dread -- that is, in a limp penis. I think that men will have to give up their precious erections and begin to make love as women do together."

She was nuttier than a bag full of fucking squirrels. To summarize her worldview as "All Heterosexual Penetrative Sex Is Rape" is to treat her mental illness charitably.

[Remember Me]

436. Oh, I see. If YOU don't understand it, don't get it, she must be mentally ill.

You were flat wrong. Trying to make it okay by saying (now) that you were just "summarizing her worldview" doesn't cut it.

Not only that, but without links to those apparent, alleged quotes you provided makes it impossible for anyone to determine just how far out of context your quotes are -- or if they're even Dworkin or perhaps someone else charitably "summarzing her worldview."

[Warren DeMontague]

437. Andrea Dworkin, "Intercourse" (1987) ISBN 0-684-83239-9

By the time of her death, she thought she was being pursued across Europe by a conspiracy of invisible penises. It's a shame; she probably could have benefited from medication.

[brooklynite]

10. Are you suggesting that any job subject to violence should be banned?

Bartenders?
Bus drivers?
Late night store clerks?

[seabeyond]

15. legally doing those jobs creates a demand of child bartender slaves? nt

[brooklynite]

32. So then, you want to ban all agricultural workers...

...since there have been instances of migrant workers held in effective slavery?

[seabeyond]

87. it would be companies, not workers and yes, that is doable to go after the companies.

the prostitution trade is not the same for many logistics reasons.

apples/oranges

[redqueen]

16. If those jobs drove up demand for underground services

which caused an increase in human trafficking, child abuse, murder, etc.

Then yes. As it is, the comparison, IMO, is fairly weak.

[EOTE]

65. Where is the evidence that legalization of prostitution increases the demand for underground

prostitution, human trafficking, child abuse and murder?

[redqueen]

74. All over the place.

Here's one source.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL30545.pdf

The U.S. State Department has repeatedly asserted that prostitution and
trafficking in persons are inextricably linked. U.S. officials argue that “where
prostitution is legalized or tolerated, there is greater demand for human trafficking
victims and nearly always an increase in the number of women and children
trafficked into commercial sex slavery.”

[EOTE]

79. I was looking for evidence, not a claim. NT

[redqueen]

90. It has been widely accepted information for years.

This being the case, most sources don't quote the studies. This source did reference one of them.

http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/vaw/ngocontribute/Coalition%20Against%20Trafficing%20in%20Women.pdf


In contrast, practices that focus on legalization of prostitution or the decriminalization of the sex
industry encourage and defend the commercialization of sexual exploitation. Legal
legitimatization of prostitution gives men moral and social permission to practice the prostitution
of women and girls, which in turn encourages an increase in the demand that fuels sex
trafficking. Janice G. Raymond, Prostitution on Demand: Legalizing the Buyers as Sexual
Customers, 10 Violence Against Women 1156, 1183 (October 2004)

[EOTE]

92. Widely accepted by whom? People who like to make claims with zero evidence to back them?

Once again, what you have linked to is a claim, nothing even approaching evidence.

[redqueen]

108. The UN, the US State Department, etc.

Ignore it if you like.

[EOTE]

113. Ignore what? Claims made with zero evidence for them?

I'm sure you'd be perfectly accepting of any claims that I was to provide to you with zero evidence to back them up. I've found just as many claims which state that demand for underground prostitution goes down with legalized prostitution. I'm sure you're all about evidence until you need to provide some and it's nowhere to be found.

[joeglow3]

81. You realize that is not evidence, right?

Just because you are able to provide a link to someone's opinion, that does not automatically turn it into rock solid evidence. Where is the underlying research? Where is the study?

[redqueen]

91. See post 90.

There have been many studies. There are a few people dedicated to attempting to discredit the studies. I put them in the same camp as those that demand proof of humanity's role in global warming.

[EOTE]

94. What studies? You haven't linked to any studies. Please provide them. NT

[redqueen]

111. This has been so widely accepted for so long that individual studies are not cited by the UN, the

US Department of State, and many other organizations that work to reduce violence against women and children have stopped citing them. There was a cite in the link above (from the UN), I can't find an online version.

[EOTE]

116. Ahhhh, so it's just common knowledge, right?

Just like it's common knowledge that global warming is bunk right? Brrrr, it's so cold outside, how could the earth possibly be warming? So this information is so ubiquitous that it simply doesn't exist any more. Makes perfect sense to me.

[redqueen]

123. Except you are analogous to the global warming deniers in this argument.

Demanding to see numbers and studies and evidence of the problem, while most progressive organizations and people have moved on to the next step - addressing the problem.

[EOTE]

129. Wrong. The global warming deniers don't need any factual support of their argument, they say it's

common knowledge. They can ignore the mountains of scientific data, after all, it's cold outside. You've repeatedly made assertions which aren't agreed upon at all. Yet, you've completely refused to provide any sort of evidence backing up your assertions. So you are without a doubt the global warming denier in this example.

[redqueen]

136. Right, the UN and US Dept of State (and many other orgs) always accept claims with no evidence.

As for which of us is ignoring the situation staring us in the face, we'll have to agree to disagree.

[EOTE]

155. So surely you should be able to provide this evidence, right?

The UN and Dept. of State wouldn't make these claims unless the evidence to support them is actually there, right? Being so, it should be easy to provide, right?

Just so you're aware, many government organization will make all sorts of crazy claims about marijuana and it being incredibly dangerous. They've even put marijuana in schedule 1, so they believe it has more potential for abuse than cocaine and many opiates. Surely they don't have an agenda there. No need to ask them for actual evidence because it's just common knowledge, right?

And you're more than welcome to "agree to disagree", but I still contend that what you say is absolutely worthless without even a slight hint of evidence to back it up.

[redqueen]

175. As I keep telling you, these most progressive countries....

the most progressive nations on the planet... and many organizations whose primary concern is reducing the ubiquitous violence against women and children... these have all seen fit to evaluate the studies which they have years ago stopped citing, except the one which I did quote to you above, which you choose to ignore for whatever reason (care to explain? is it because it's not free online?)

I can't put it any plainer. If you're just going to keep claiming that these Scandinavian countries are just like the DEA in that they misrepresent facts in order to ... whatever it is you think is their reason for making all of this up... then we really have nothing further to discuss.

[EOTE]

180. What you provided was a claim by a person. That's a joke.

I can provide many other claims by people which will state the exact opposite, will you accept those as evidence? Once again, I did not ignore this, I ridiculed it.

Surely these Scandinavian countries can site one small iota of evidence, right? You demand so much evidence when someone presents something you don't agree with, yet you can't provide even the slightest bit of evidence in your own favor?

I've provided you with evidence that, at least in Germany, sex trafficking declined with the legalization of prostitution. You've provided me with zero evidence which backs up your assertion.

[joeglow3]

203. Give it up. You are pissing in the wind.

Some people do not have the ability to carry on an intelligent discourse. I do not doubt that what s/he is saying could be true. However, it is completely opposite of what I would intuitively expect and, thus I am interested in seeing the support for this. Based on the responses I have received, I am beginning to think my intuition is correct and this person is talking out of their ass. Basically, they don't like something (for whatever reason) and will go so far as to make shit up, saying "it is common, accepted knowledge."

[EOTE]

209. I would have thought she'd be a bit less overt about it.

Amazing how emotion can taint someone so much. Particularly with regard to this subject, lies seem to be par for the course. Even from people who you wouldn't think would have a motivation to lie, such as a police commissioner in a country that implemented these changes, find a reason to speak utter BS on the subject. I've heard Germany cited as a reason that the legalization of prostitution simply doesn't work on numerous occasions. It turns out that Germany proves just the opposite:

http://rightswork.org/2010/10/claim-%E2%80%9Cgerman%E2%80%99s-legalized-prostitution-brought-more-exploitation-than-emancipation-to-women%E2%80%9C/

[Whisp]

400. ah, the ole 'emotion' ploy.

DU3 admins said that the new setup here will be more transparent, I agree - I can see right through you.

[EOTE]

414. What else would you call it when you're willing to allow women to be subjegated

in the underground sex trade not to mention completely eliminate free will in this regard simply because of your outdated and uneducated view on the subject? I think one would at least be interested in facts on the issue, but to avoid them completely tells me that she's arguing entirely from emotion and nothing else. You think you're all that difficult to read, either?

[Whisp]

423. .

[EOTE]

425. Yes, I'd definitely agree with that. NT

[Zorra]

14. redqueen -

Do you have a handy source link where I can find this information, and if so, could you please post it? Just to save me from having to hunt it down.

"Sweden and the countries which have followed suit have become undesirable locations for human traffickers. More countries are looking into this model of dealing with prostitution, as well as individual states here in the US."

Thanks!

[seabeyond]

17. first google i came across

http://www.thelocal.se/27580/20100703/

[redqueen]

18. There are tons of links here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden

I could dig up more. CNN reported on a US state which was looking into this method not too long ago. There is so much information on the net about prostitution, and its effects.

[Zorra]

20. Oh, that's much easier than I anticipated. Thanks sb and rq.

[joeglow3]

25. Looks like your link doesn't support your conclusion

From your link:

Police and media reportsIn 2001 the Malmo police reported that there was no evidence that the law had reduced violence, rather there was evidence it had increased, [93]

In 2007 Der Spiegel, a German news magazine, stated that according to the Swedish police, 400 to 600 foreign women are brought to Sweden each year to be prostitutes. In Finland, which is only half the size of Sweden, that number is between 10,000 and 15,000 women. Jonas Trolle, an inspector with a unit of the Stockholm police dedicated to combating the sex trade, was quoted as saying "We only have between 105 and 130 women, both on the Internet and on the street, active (in prostitution) in Stockholm today." [94]

In 2008 Kajsa Wahlberg, [95] of the human trafficking unit at Sweden's national police board, conceded that accurate statistics are hard to obtain, but estimated that the number of prostitutes in Sweden dropped 40% from 2,500 in 1998 to 1,500 in 2003. [96] However by 2010 she had conceded that the policy had failed, and that issues around prostitution were increasing [97] as noted in the media which carried out surveys on the street.[98] [99] [100] In Stockholm police sources reported increased activity on Malmskillnadsgatan in the city centre (which with Artillerigatan in the Östermalm district was a traditional site for street prostitution in Stockholm). [101] [102] Judges [103] and senior police officials have been caught purchasing sex, [104] [105] while most recently Sven Otto Littorin, the Minister of Labour Sven Otto Littorin was also accused of purchasing sex (Littoringate). [106]

[redqueen]

40. The link from Wikipedia that is used to source that assertion does not say what is claimed.

If you have another source stating that this woman said it failed, then please provide it.

I'm well aware that there is opposition to the law. It is not widespread.

[joeglow3]

51. So, now you are picking and choosing what parts of YOUR citation are accurate.

Wow, documentation and support requirements sure have changed in the 10 years I have been out of college.

[redqueen]

54. That wasn't my citation.

I provided a link so that someone could find out more about the countries which use this system of criminalizing the buying but not the selling.

You cherrypicked a quote from a translated paper which did not say what it was claimed that it said.

Perhaps you should pay closer attention to what you're reading.

[joeglow3]

66. Oh, so when someone asked for support, your response is "go find it yourself."

Sorry, but that is not how things work. If you make a claim, it is YOUR responsibility to support that claim, NOT mine to find the support or look for something opposing it.

Like I said, documentation sure has changed in the 10 years since I was in college.

[redqueen]

80. That person found the information they wanted easily.

I have no idea why you're now changing your focus to scold me for something which has nothing to do with you.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

382. Some people will twist themselves in knots to avoid saying "oops"

Here's a link with lots of good information,
-followed by-
That's not really the link I meant, it just looked like I did, since I'm the one who posted it.
-followed by-
You're just cherry-picking the link I used as proof to find things to disprove my hypothesis.
-followed by-
You should really take more care in selecting what links to read.

I believe some people are incapable of saying, "my fault, here's a much better link".

[iverglas]

142. check out the Talk wiki page on that article ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk rostitution_in_Sweden

argh, edit to remove the stupid random idiotface that this site is producing - just remove the space:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk: Prostitution_in_Sweden

I would say that for the verifiable info you cite, it's a handy reference. Otherwise, it's an individual with questionable knowledge and intent riding a hobbyhorse, unfortunately.

This is outdated but may be a better into:

http://www.justicewomen.com/cj_sweden.html

[zappaman]

21. Interesting paper here

http://www.independent.org/publications/working_papers/article.asp?id=1300

"In this paper I examine the hypothesis that the frequency of rape is increased when another source of sex (prostitution) is limited or unavailable. To test this theory I regressed the rape rate in available OECD countries against a proxy for the availability of prostitution. The relationship was found to be anti-correlated at about the 90% confidence level. Using this model, it is estimated that if prostitution were legalized in the United States, the rape rate would decrease by roughly 25% for a decrease of approximately 25,000 rapes per year."

[redqueen]

24. The problem is the way men are socialized. To feel that they are entitled to sex.

I cannot view coerced or trafficked people as collateral damage, and ignore their plight.

Instead of treating the symptoms, IMO we should address the cause.

[Occulus]

34. "The problem is the way men are socialized. To feel that they are entitled to sex."

Excuse me?

[redqueen]

42. Many men feel that they are entitled to sex.

This is what fuels the claims that it's a 'biological need' to use someone else's body.

It is also a motivation for some rapes. (All date rapes, probably most others but I will leave any precise claims to the experts.)

[whathehell]

78. Agreed.

They are socialized to feel entitled to MANY things, e.g. being "right", being "smarter", getting more respect, etc.

[Lance_Boyle]

96. The problem is the way women are socialized,

to feel that they can use sex as currency.

It's not any less offensive from that angle, is it?

[raccoon]

35. A fricking men!

"The problem is the way men are socialized. To feel that they are entitled to sex."

[lapislzi]

59. All prostitution underground vs some prostitution underground

Progress will be incremental. You can't wave a wand and change attitudes, unfortunately. I am of the opinion that more transparency is better. I'd like my prostitutes to be clean and healthy, and doing sex work because they like it, not because they're enslaved.

On the other hand, I am the least likely person in the world to purchase the services of a prostitute, being a happily married, monogamous woman.

[redqueen]

169. No, you can't wave a wand

however societal attitudes towards sex buyers in the Scandinavian countries that have adopted this model of criminalizing buying sex but not selling sex have changed significantly.

The most common argument I've seen used against this method is that it drives the 'industry' to other countries. It seems to me the best solution to that problem is to change the laws in other countries, gradually reducing the social acceptability of buying sex along the way.

[lapislzi]

182. It's a thorny problem

Because its tentacles reach into human trafficking, organized crime, and entrenched tropes regarding gender roles.

There are flourishing sex trades in countries like Ukraine and the Baltic states because women believe the lies and the "promises" of a better life in Scandinavia, or Dubai, or wherever, and because these women are in high demand. And both men and women accept the trope that women and their bodies are property, commodities to be bought, sold, and owned.

If you take away nothing else from Stieg Larsson's Millennium Trilogy novels, take away that.

[redqueen]

192. "women and their bodies are property, commodities to be bought, sold, and owned"

IMO, this is what we should be fighting.

By legalizing prostitution, IMO the message is that women's bodies indeed are commodities.

[lapislzi]

318. While I agree with you in principle, prostitution has been around for millennia.

I don't know what happens in agrarian societies, but wherever there are city-states or larger settlements, historically, there have been prostitutes.

Some prostitution was state-sanctioned: temple prostitutes in Mesopotamia, for example. Some prostitute/concubines were highly regarded by their societies: the heterae of Athens.

I'm not offering an opinion about this, just mentioning a few historical anomalies.

I don't have an answer, not even with the long view.

[redqueen]

321. Patriarchy has been around for millennia.

Part of pushing the message that women's bodies aren't objects to be bought and sold is challenging the patriarchy which demands that women remain the sex class.

[Odin2005]

285. "To feel that they are entitled to sex." You win the thread.

[redqueen]

289. Ha, no, I'm just one of a small handful of anti-sex, pearl-clutching, hysterical prudes,

bent on starting a new dictatorship which is against all forms of sex, of any kind, anywhere.



(we need MRA bingo cards for this place)

[Odin2005]

298. The "anti-sex" crap is why I'm convinced that the "Sexual Revolution" was a failure.

We went from "woman as virgin" to "woman as whore".

[seabeyond]

305. We went from "woman as virgin" to "woman as whore".

preach it brother. i am concluding the same.

[redqueen]

317. You know what's really telling...

is that these threads which challenge the patriarchy and male privilege don't come up that often. But people here react as if they're daily occurrences.

[Whisp]

387. free love was never free for women.

[Odin2005]

402. Exactly.

[Whisp]

403. I'm not too fond of the Bring home the bacon and fry it in the Pan idea too

when picking up some of the slack at home for men wasn't included in the deal, generally. Makes for a lot of exhausted and stressed out women.

Whole other thing, sorry to offtrack.

[seabeyond]

28. would that include each and every rape that the increased demand would cause sex slave and child sex

slaves? because you know, as the demand increases and sex slaves and child sex slaves increases, each time would be rape.

[joeglow3]

38. A few questions

Do you think the desire for child sex slaves is increased if prostitution is legal?
If so, what triggers this otherwise dormant desire to manifest itself when prostitution is made legal?
What is the basis of your conclusions that you are presenting as accepted fact?

[redqueen]

49. It isn't that it creates more pedophiles.

It is that where the idea that buying sex is socially acceptable becomes more commonplace, demand, of course, goes up. Where demand goes up for legal prostitutes, pimps (knowing how these things work) will supply the prostitutes for the increasing number of prospective sex buyers.

These pimps coerce and recruit children from abusive homes. They prey on people who are addicted to drugs. They act as the importers in the market for trafficked people.

[joeglow3]

55. So, if outlawing abortion led to a reduction in child rapes, you would support that as well?

What if I can find a tenuous correlation between gay marriage and some abhorrent crime? Sorry, but this line of reasoning used to limit people's rights is the tool of the right, not the left.

[iverglas]

56. are there really men in the US who do not have access to prostitutes?

That certainly hasn't been my impression, and certainly isn't my experience where I live (in a major urban centre in Canada).

A prominent member of a prestigious profession (and now a politician) was picked up in my neighbourhood soliciting a street prostitute a while back. He and the many men of much lower social status who prowl our blocks don't seem to have any trouble at all. There appears to be an unending supply of desperate, drug-addicted women for them to exploit.

I know, I'm supposed to be thinking about the happy hookers, the young ladies putting themselves through law school, the sex-positive women who just love their work. Forgive me for suggesting that they, to the extent they actually exist, think about somebody else.

The man who abducted and raped me, and other women, could have found a prostitute without leaving his home town, rather than trawling the highways for hitchhikers.

Col. Russell Williams, recently convicted in Canada of sexually assaulting and killing women who were not prostitutes, could quite easily have located a prostitute willing to indulge his fantasies. Instead, he chose a member of the Canadian Forces and another ordinary woman.

In fact, now that I think about it, Williams was married. As was the man who abducted me. Are all the men who rape women in the US unpartnered? Hm.

That's quite the study.

There are, of course, many problems with this data. Rape is a crime that regularly goes unreported and what is considered rape in one countryís data set may not be considered rape in another countryís data set. The homicide rate also suffers from being defined differently in different countries – I have corrected for this problem to the best of my abilities by using multiple data sets. Given all of these problems, the analysis seems to support the hypothesis that the rape rate could be lowered if prostitution was more readily available. This would be accomplished in most countries by the legalization of prostitution. In the United States where prostitution is illegal, the low-end price for most prostitutes is about $200 and the monthly per capita income is $2,820. In Amsterdam, Netherlands where prostitution is legal the price is $30. If prostitution were legalized in the United States it is rational to assume that prices would resemble those in the Netherlands, this would result in a change in I of 80 and a decrease in the rape rate of 8.6 per 100,000. The population of the United States if roughly 300 million so this should result is a decrease of approximately 25,000 rapes per year.

Wow, that would be in the prostitutes' interest. Cut the price to about 1/7 of the current going rate, so they have to work 7 times as much. I'm sure they'll be grateful. But we who argue against legal prostitution (i.e., in my case and most others you will encounter at this site I think, against allowing the purchase of prostitution services) are the ones who are anti-prostitute. Hm.

And $200 is the low-end rate? You've got yourself some fancy hookers down there. I think it's about $10 in my neighbourhood for the particular thing most of the scumballs trawling here are after.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Independent_Institute#Economic_issues

The Institute has produced scholarly books and other studies [2] on free-market entrepreneurship and regulation, deregulation, taxation, privatization, and community development.

You're citing some bullshit "research" produced by an associate professor of finance and published by a right-wing think tank. Kudos.

[JohnnyRingo]

29. Certainly I see your point in the case of unregulated street walkers

but I look toward Las Vegas and wonder if it applies there. I can't see how workers at the famous Chicken Ranch in Parhump NV are included in the profile of the abused whore. Indeed the standards are high, and those employed there are doing so quite willingly and under the government's watchful eye.

With government regulation I would think the stereotyped pimp slapping his whores around could be put out of work by legitimate tax paying businesses that cater to a market demanding a safe and legal service supplied by professionals with a sense of pride in their work. The adult film industry isn't staffed with workers who are beaten and bruised all the way to the movie set, and it currently reels in more taxed income than any other single business in the country.

I'm not big on hiring prostitutes, and my name is Johnny not John, but I would think government oversight and regulation of the world's oldest profession may actually help curb the violent nature of the business in the long run by taking the career street criminals out of the equation.

[redqueen]

67. Most actresses in porn also come from abusive backgrounds.

But let's leave that for another thread.

As for curbing violence, evidence shows the opposite. Where it is made 'ok' by community standards to buy sex (i.e. where prostitution is legal) demand goes up. For both legal and underground prostitutes.

[zappaman]

76. Is that true?

I personally know 3 who worked in that industry. One certainly did have an abusive background, the other 2 did not.
Is there a study you are basing your assertion on?

[JohnnyRingo]

77. Point taken, but I still find the subject of regulation debatable

Certainly your heart is in the right place in preventing exploitation and abuse of people who find themselves backed into a corner by hunger and survival. It's unfortunate that a warm bed with a john looks better than a spot behind a dumpster, or that a beating is a part of getting through to tomorrow.

At least you sparked a lively discussion on a subject that is all too seldom explored.

[Warren DeMontague]

267. why leave it for another thread? Same deal, you don't agree with the choices they make

so by your definition they are no longer consenting adults capable of making their own decisions.

If that's your view, you shouldn't run from it. Own up.

[RevStPatrick]

30. I have a feeling that redqueen finds prostitution "icky"

Which is certainly her right.
But... prostitution is NOT violence.
Violence is violence.

Honestly? That's a lot of words that you wrote there.
Some of what you wrote might make sense for you, but not for others.
Why do you get to decide that someone who can't form lasting relationships only has the option to masturbate, and can't have the option to have a tender touch from a willing participant?
Frankly, you sound about as bad as Rick Santorum.
Is that what you want?

Personally, I think prostitution should be legal and regulated.
I think there should be shops you can go into, just like any other, and pay money for a service.
I think the more legal and the more common that becomes, the less violence there would be associated with it. And yes, there is violence associated with prostitution, and yes, it is a problem.

This attitude you display does nothing at all to help that...

[zazen]

50. so RedQueen is just uptight and hates sex?

I thought we were beyond that line of argument, that if you question the harms of the sexual exploitation of women, you must therefore hate sex.

[joeglow3]

60. so RevStPatrick supports exploiting women and rape?

I thought we were beyond that line of argument, that if you question the harms of the limiting adults rights to do what they want with their bodies, you must therefore support child rape.

[JohnnyRingo]

88. I don't entirely agree with the good reverend...

but I don't see how he was necessarily advocating for exploiting women and rape by allowing someone to seek the vocation of their choice.

As I pointed out earlier, no one has to beat adult fim stars down to the movie set to get them to perform, and it provides for more taxed income than any other single business in the country. Porn is pretty much just a form of legal prostitution and the business thrives with little violent criminal activity that I've heard of.

[Scout]

68. no, on DU we are definitely NOT beyond that line of argument...

sorry to inform you.

[seabeyond]

97. i have been told that so often and so many times.... hey, just last night. that is what 2nd wave

feminists are, btw. though, i didnt know that is what i am, but the names given to me if i do say anything certainly indicates that.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

221. We're also not beyond the argument that all sex workers must be psychologically damaged.....

...or have been previously sexually abused, and we have to save them.

[redqueen]

222. Who said "all"?

Just curious.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

224. Oh, so you admit there are at least some who willingly participate of their own free will?

Are they the ones who you would "re-educate"?

[redqueen]

227. All I'm saying is that our priority as a society, IMO,

should be protecting those who are victimized. And if that infringes on some people who want to sell their bodies or buy access to other people's bodies, oh well. I would like to think that they might be persuaded to think of someone besides themselves.

I suppose that might be akin to "re-educating" SUV drivers to give up their land yachts. So be it.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

236. "oh, well"

I'm glad you've boiled it down to that.

[Occulus]

240. "And if that infringes on some people who want to sell their bodies or buy access to other people's

bodies, oh well."

You are against a consensual sexual act between adults.

Correct?

[redqueen]

58. Like I said, IMO our primary responsibility as a society is to protect those

who are trafficked and coerced.

If someone feels that their desire to be touched or to sell their ability to touch outweighs our concern for the safety of abused people, I will have to just disagree with that opinion.

[seabeyond]

93. there are whole countries with this "attitude". those draconians countries like sweden, denmark.

google and do a little research. it is not just an opinion.

[jberryhill]

36. It's illegal pretty much everywhere in the US

And there doesn't seem to be any groundswell of support for changing that any time soon.

So that one seems to be pretty much covered.

[redqueen]

95. No, it isn't pretty much covered. We are not sufficiently focusing on demand.

This is why the Swedish model is being considered by more countries, and at least one state here in the US.

[phleshdef]

37. Sending people to jail over paying for or accepting money for sex is silly.

There is no justification for it.

Aside from that, if someone beats up a prostitute right now, its a lot harder for the victim to press charges. If the victim didn't have to worry about going to jail themselves, for being a prostitute, then they have a lot more leeway to use the law to protect themselves. This much is undeniable.

What it really comes down to is that its none of your business when 2 consenting adults have sex, whether money is involved or not. Men battering women is a serious problem that has nothing to do with prostitution. Just as much of that happens in regular ass sexual relationships where no payment for sex is involved. That fact alone pretty much obliterates your entire premise.

[redqueen]

98. You are obviously unfamiliar with the Swedish method of dealing with prostitution.

Buying sex is criminalized. Selling it is not.

[phleshdef]

135. I really don't give a shit. You shouldn't go to jail for paying for sex either.

[redqueen]

140. The many victims of human trafficking thank you for your concern, I'm sure. (nt)

[phleshdef]

150. Wow, thats a whole field of strawmen right there. Human traffickers should rot in prison.

Of course I don't need to clarify that. You know good and well that you are engaging in false equivalency.

There is no reason that prostitution can't be legal while sexual slavery and human trafficking remain just as illegal as ever. None. Cut the bullshit.

[seabeyond]

151. fact disagrees with you. hence the point of the OP. nt

[phleshdef]

159. It has nothing to do with facts. Its none of your god damn business what consenting adults do.

I'm married, faithful and have no desire to pay for sex even if I was not married. But as long as I'm with another consenting adult, I'll be damned if I'm going to put up with someone telling me what can or can't happen during that time. Its none of your business when money doesn't change hands, it should also be none of your business if it does.

[redqueen]

154. What bullshit?

There is a documented correlation between legalized prostitution and an increase in human trafficking.

[phleshdef]

161. Correlation does not imply causation.

If there is an increase in human trafficking, then you dedicate more legal resources to combatting human trafficking. You don't waste those same legal resources catching, arresting, convicting and imprisoning adults who had peaceful, consensual sex, whether it was for money or not for money. It doesn't make any sense.

Your logic on this is really wild. By your logic, we should make it illegal for people to own cars because the very existence of high speed transportation makes it possible to transport sexual slaves under the radar.

[redqueen]

163. It's not "my" logic.

It's the logic used by the most progressive countries, and the most progressive organizations working to reduce violence against women and children.

[phleshdef]

167. And I'd tell them, straight to their faces, they have no business arresting and locking up people...

...who have no association with any of that dark, evil shit. If one adult pays another adult for consensual sex -- absent any associations to human trafficking, sexual slavery, violent coersion or any other despicable thing you can think of --- then neither party involved has done ANYTHING that warrants punishment.

[redqueen]

171. I'm sure that your personal opinions would carry more weight

than the dozens of studies which have provided as the basis for these most progessive of practices.

[phleshdef]

177. Yea, its SO god damn progressive to arrest people for not doing anything wrong.

[LadyHawkAZ]

385. After reading a lot of the trafficking numbers from different countries

the conclusion that I came to was this:

In countries where both prostitution and trafficking are illegal, resources are generally geared toward arresting whoever they can catch- this usually means consenting adults, since traffickers don't broadcast their presence as much. Trafficking numbers for these countries are shaky estimates.
When a country makes prostitution legal, but trafficking remains illegal, resources that used to be focused on consenting adults get diverted to catching actual traffickers. Arrests and prosecutions for trafficking rise, and there are now hard numbers instead of shaky estimates.

Result: there's an appearance of increase which may or may not be an actual increase, but is used to illustrate an increase anyway. Not hard to understand when the trafficking numbers, even as shaky estimates, for countries that have outlawed prostitution (or deregulated without oversight) tend to far outstrip numbers for legal/regulated countries.

[phleshdef]

397. That makes perfect sense. More focus on catching traffickers = more known traffickers.

[Occulus]

241. And exactly what does human trafficking, as horrible as it is, have to do with

the whore on the corner?

[redqueen]

349. Many of those prostitutes are trafficked.

Many of them are coerced.

Many people care about that, and don't consider them to be nothing more than collateral damage, and would like to change society so that we no longer are encouraged to think of people's bodies as nothing more than commodities to be bought and sold.

[seabeyond]

100. that is why you decriminalize being a prostitute and go after the buyer. as sweden has done and

other countries that are legalized are adopting.

[The Straight Story]

39. Is there a study on violence and the bunny ranch? (nt)

[LadyHawkAZ]

262. See my post #255

not specific to the bunny ranch but there has been one done on the Nevada brothels.

[Arkansas Granny]

43. I just have a couple of questions about this.

1. Are prostitutes beaten and murdered at a higher rate than women in the general population? A lot of women are injured or killed by domestic partners, not to mention those killed by strangers.

2. If prositution were legal, would protitutes be more likely to report abusive patrons so they could be stopped before their violent acts resulted in injury or death? I've been told that many in the sex trade don't report this kind of violence for fear that they will be charged with committing a crime themselves.

[closeupready]

73. See my response #70 below.

nt

[redqueen]

107. 1. That is a very good question.

I can't find any comparison of numbers offhand, but I will keep looking. This is a great resource, it does give lots of information, but no direct #'s to #'s comparison (that I've found so far).
http://www.un.org/rights/dpi1772e.htm


2. Under the Swedish model, selling sex is not criminalized, so women have less reason than underground prostitutes to report abuse. It is true that where underground prostitutes are legally prohibited from selling sex, they are much less likely to report crimes. It is still a problem that those who continue to want to sell sex will not report patrons due to losing prospective customers for doing so. However, the huge decreases in demand (and trafficking) in countries that use this model makes me support it over legalization (which as I've said, I believe the studies which show demand does rise where it is made legal).

[FlaGatorJD]

46. Having lived in Holland where prostitution is legal

I would simply say that your premise that all prostitution, even when legal,
leads to violence doesn't appear to be supported by facts.
While at the same time, there is illegal prostitution there as well, and this is where you find some violence and the lack of control regarding the use of condoms.

In general, the Dutch society isn't as violent as our's, but in the year or so I was there, I never heard of violence, rape, or murder committed upon a prostitute, although some of it could be kept under wraps, but not if it were rampant.

How can we argue that we should have the right for consenting adults to do whatever they like in privacy, as long as there's no buying and selling of sex?

Don't get me wrong, there are bad people who do bad things to prostitutes, and there is certainly some level of slavery, or indentured servitude if you will, which is wrong and illegal, and those people should be punished; but to blankly claim it should all be illegal based on an erroneous argument that it is always appears to defy logic and the facts.

I'm sure there are those who philosophically just don't believe it could ever be consenting, or is just wrong, and I don't expect those views will change.

[whathehell]

84. What is "illegal" as far as prostitution goes in Holland?

You say there is some violence there involving that.

[FlaGatorJD]

287. Legal prostitutes are registered and located in known areas.

They are required to have blood tests, use condoms, etc.

The illegal trade is located in the same places you see it here.
On the outskirts of town and near dark alleys and such.

[whathehell]

361. Just curious:

What are the advantages of being an "illegal" prostitute in Holland?

[girl gone mad]

101. Holland may not be the best example.

They have been cracking down on legal brothels for many years now because of associated organized crime and human trafficking.

I don't believe theirs is a model any country would want to emulate.

[FlaGatorJD]

292. There is always problems with regulation

especially if the activity was previously and somewhat currently attached to illegal activities.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but in my opinion, it works better than what we have here.

Also, the current government, which is conservative, seems to be trying to "clean up" the country by attempting to shut down the coffee shops, because they're blaiming the problems, especially around Amsterdam, on drug tourists.
While there may be some truth in the idea, the situation is far more complicated, and I would argue their current approach to MJ is decades ahead of our arrest and incarcerate approach.

[seabeyond]

295. so, you went from, everything is bless to there are problems". which is exactly the point

of the OP.

[FlaGatorJD]

306. Not exactly, the OP title states prostitution is violence

and that simply isn't true. I do not think there is a simple solution, but having lived mostly in the US, but having spent considerable time in Holland, in my opinion legalized prostitution can work, and if regulated properly it does not include violence. Unless of course, you simply believe that is morally wrong like abortion, or you believe no woman could ever consent to the profession without being coerced in some way, than you won't ever agree.

That said, it is not perfect and illegal activity seems to always be nearby. I did notice in the study you cited, it was Nigerians, not Dutch citizens who were charged with the trafficking. Any type of slavery is wrong, period, so I would never argue in support of it, but so often, people want to throw out the baby with the bath water.

In my experience, the Dutch approach to sex is so different from the American situation, that it is like comparing apples and watermelons and really comparing prostitution there to here is actually impossible.

[redqueen]

311. It's a metaphor. Jeez is it really so hard to get?

I never expected that a metaphor would cause so much confusion.

See post 143.

[seabeyond]

312. ok. you cant get past the title. fuck the rest of what was said. holland has a

problem. so your post was not exactly correct either.

[FlaGatorJD]

341. I don't see the need for anger or a crass response

Just because you don't agree with my position on this.

If you want to deduce from my position on this, or any other posts,
that I'm part of a hidden group of misogynists or anti-feminists, or whatever,
then you're wrong, and not adding to what I believe is a good discussion.

I respect Redqueen's opinion and the fact that there has been a considerable amount of thought and reserach done on the matter. I simply don't agree with it.

If a a forum of liberals can't agree to disagree on an issue and still be respectful, it would seem we've become more like our adversaries

[seabeyond]

345. but you did not say that. did you. you go after the title and misrepresented what is happening

in holland. i addressed the two issues you put forth. not angry, and in your opinion crass. imo, straight forward.

i disagree with your disagree.

[seabeyond]

106. The Netherlands is listed by the UNODC as a top destination for victims of human trafficking

The Netherlands is listed by the UNODC as a top destination for victims of human trafficking.[25] Countries that are major sources of trafficked persons include Thailand, China, Nigeria, Albania, Bulgaria, Belarus, Moldova, Ukraine,[25] Sierra Leone, and Romania.[26]
Currently, human trafficking in the Netherlands is on the rise, according to figures obtained from the National Centre against Human Trafficking. The report shows a substantial increase in the number of victims from Hungary and China. There were 809 registered victims of human trafficking in 2008, 763 were women and at least 60 percent of them were forced to work in the sex industry.[27] [28]
Within the Netherlands, victims are often recruited by so called "loverboys" – men who seduce young Dutch women and girls and later coerce them into prostitution. The phenomenon was highlighted in 2008 by Maria Mosterd, who published a book about her ordeal as the 12-year-old victim of a loverboy.[29] The truthfulness of this book is disputed, and was the subject of an investigative journalism report. [30]
Many victims of human trafficking are led to believe by organized criminals that they are being offered work in hotels or restaurants or in child care and are forced into prostitution with the threat or actual use of violence. Estimates of the number of victims vary from 1000 to 7000 on a yearly basis. Most police investigations on human trafficking concern legal sex businesses. All sectors of prostitution are well represented in these investigations, but particularly the window brothels are overrepresented. [31] [32] [33]
At the end of 2008, a gang of six people were sentenced to prison terms of eight months to 7½ years in what prosecutors said was the worst case of human trafficking ever brought to trial in the Netherlands. The case involved more than 100 female victims, violently forced to work in prostitution.[34] In December 2009, two Nigerian men were sentenced to 4 and 4½ years in prison for having smuggled 140 Nigerian women aged 16–23 into the Netherlands. The women were made to apply for asylum and then disappeared from asylum centers, to work as prostitutes in surrounding countries. The men were said to have used "voodoo" curses on the women to prevent escape and enforce payment of debts.[35]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Netherlands

[redqueen]

291. No response to this, of course.

Typical.

[LadyHawkAZ]

389. What kind of response did you want?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_the_Philippines

A 1997 report put the number of child victims of prostitution at 75,000 in the Philippines.,[10] with other estimates saying as many as 100,000.[11]

According to the United Nations Children's Fund (Unicef)an estimated 60,000 to 100,000 children in the Philippines are involved in prostitution rings. According to the International Labour Organization (ILO) about 100,000 children are involved in prostitution.[12] is a high incidence of child prostitution in tourist areas. An undetermined number of children are forced into exploitative labor operations.[13]

The Philippines is the fourth country with the most number of prostituted children,[14] and authorities have identified an increase in child molesters travelling to the Philippines.[15]

There are estimated to be 375,000 women and girls in the sex trade in the Philippines, mostly between the ages of 15 and 20, though some are as young as 11.[16]

The International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies state that there are more than 1.5 million street children in the Philippines and many end up in prostitution and drug trafficking in places such as Manila and Angeles City.[17]

Government and NGO estimates on the number of women trafficked range from 300,000 to 400,000 and the number of children trafficked range from 60,000 to 100,000.[18] According to the US government reports, the number of child victims in the Philippines range from 20,000 to 100,000, with foreign tourists, particularly other Asians, as perpetrators.[18]

An estimated 60,000 to 100,000 children in the Philippines are involved in prostitution rings, according to Minette Rimando, a spokeswoman for the U.N.'S International Labour Organization's Manila office.[19] Based on the statistics provided by the Visayan Forum Foundation, most victims are between 12 to 22 years old.[20]

The Philippines is ranked under Tier 2 Watch List in the 2009 Trafficking in Persons Report of the United States (US) State Department due to the Philippine government’s alleged failure to show evidence of progress in convicting trafficking offenders, particularly those responsible for labor trafficking.[21][22]


Prostitution is illegal in the Philippines.

[redqueen]

392. Yes, that developing country is totally analogous

to Amsterdam.

[LadyHawkAZ]

394. OK then

will this developing country suit you?
http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/07/HumanTrafficking/LitRev/#How
Trafficking into the United States

The data and methodologies for estimating the prevalence of human trafficking globally and nationally are not well developed, and therefore estimates have varied widely and changed significantly over time. The U.S. State Department has estimated that approximately 600,000 to 800,000 victims are trafficked annually across international borders worldwide and approximately half of these victims are younger than age 18 (U.S. Department of State, 2005, 2006, 2007). Additionally, the U.S. State Department has estimated that 80 percent of internationally trafficked victims are female and 70 percent are trafficked into the sex industry (U.S. Department of State, 2005). In comparison, the International Labor Organization has estimated that at any given time, 12.3 million people are in forced labor, bonded labor, forced child labor, sexual servitude, and involuntary servitude (International Labor Organization, 2005). Other estimates of global labor exploitation range from 4 million to 27 million (U.S. Department of State, 2006, 2007).

Initial estimates cited in the TVPA suggested that approximately 50,000 individuals were trafficked into the United States each year. This estimate was subsequently reduced to 18,000–20,000 in the U.S. Department of State’s June 2003 Trafficking in Persons Report, and in its 2005 and 2006 reports, altered again to an estimate of 14,500–17,500 individuals trafficked annually into the United States.

According to official administrative data, since 2001, the U.S. Department of Justice has prosecuted 360 defendants in human trafficking cases, and secured 238 convictions (U.S. Department of Justice, 2007).

Additionally, as of June 2007, 1,264 foreign nationals (adults and children) have been certified by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services as victims of human trafficking, eligible to receive public benefits. Of these, 1,153 are adults, with 69 percent female victims. Of the 111 minor victims certified, 82 percent were female. For some victim service providers and NGOs, these figures are not considered representative of the actual number of human trafficking victims in the country. They believe that many victims go unreported (and uncounted) because they do not want to cooperate with law enforcement and, therefore, are never reported to authorities or receive Federal assistance (Caliber Associates, 2007).

[Douglas Carpenter]

61. I don't believe that anyone should EVER be forced to particpate in ANYTHING they don't want to

participate in - or be forced not to participate in something that they do want to participate in.

[Eliminator]

63. So let me get this straight:

If I have sex with a prostitute, but then refuse to pay her because it's illegal for me to buy sex, that would be OK?

Wow. Nice deal.

[closeupready]

70. This weekend, I re-watched the documentary on Aileen Wuornos,

"Aileen Wuornos: the selling of a serial killer", and it struck me - in hindsight - how far society has moved, insofar as I kind of feel if she had been put on trial today, she would have been given a lesser sentence, since it was clear that the men (at least, the first one she spoke of) she killed did physically abuse and rape her upon hiring her for prostitution.

In other words, she killings she committed seem to have been, to some degree, in self-defense, i.e., not first degree murder.

But she was sentenced 20 years ago, which was still a time when the elder Bush was president - light years away in terms of all that has transpired since then.

[whathehell]

86. Yes....Her background, starting when she was abandoned by her parents at 13 yrs old, was atrocious.

I always thought she should have been spared the death penalty.

[closeupready]

105. Yes, watching her story from 20+ years on, it seemed really clear to me.

At least insofar as I believe she was honest when she said, breaking down in tears, the first guy raped her anally and then vaginally, and then proceeded to squirt rubbing alcohol in her orifices, and tell her something like she hadn't seen anything yet.

Obviously, none of us was there, nor do we obviously have his version of what happened; yet, I found her video testimony believable, and definitely would not be comfortable seeing her sentenced to die. Life? Yes. Death? Just too many ambiguities.

[whathehell]

110. Exactly. n/t

[VWolf]

75. Masturbation should be good enough

Five, maybe six times a day does it for me.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

173. How Do You Get Any Work Done?

.

[VWolf]

277. I've got two hands. N/t

[whathehell]

82. For resisting Prostitution Ring: "Man kidnaps woman, forces her to watch teen's torture slay"

"Man kidnaps woman, forces her to watch torture

and dismemberment of a 19-year old girl"

Woman forced to watch teen's torture slay

OKLAHOMA CITY — An Oklahoma City man kidnapped a 20-year-old woman and forced her to watch others torture and kill another woman so that she would cooperate with a human trafficking ring, police said Tuesday.

Jimmy Lee Massey, 33, was arrested on a warrant for first-degree murder in the death of 19-year-old Carina Saunders, whose dismembered body was found stuffed in a duffel bag in the Oklahoma City suburb of Bethany, Police Chief Phil Cole said. Formal charges are pending.

<...>

An affidavit filed in the case said Massey told investigators he kidnapped the 20-year-old woman and forced her to watch others kill Saunders. He also provided details of Saunders' torture, killing and dismemberment and disposal of the body.

Cole said there was no evidence the 20-year-old knew Saunders, but she and Saunders both knew Massey. He said the kidnapping and killing were meant to send a message that the 20-year-old and her friends faced the same fate unless they cooperated with a human trafficking ring focused on prostitution and a related drug ring.

Read more: http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-12-21/news/30544441_1_human-trafficking-ring-torture-slay-drug-charges

[Froward69]

89. SO much for allowing someone to sell themselves if they want

what of the women (and men) who CHOOSE to prostitute themselves? obviously to the poster they have something inherently wrong with them.

Then theirs the FACT that (for the most part) ALL sex has a cost... Dinner, Movies or other date activities. <-- even then sex is not guaranteed. (without mentioning STD's

Why is it those that would prefer to pay cash, skip the small talk and "romance" get bashed so harshly?

At least where it is LEGAL the prostitutes must have regular exams against STD's. best of luck out in the rest of the world without universal health care or absolute honesty between parners.

[The Straight Story]

114. Your body, your choice only applies to one thing (nt)

[redqueen]

117. I don't engage in discussions with anyone who compares dating with prostitution.

My primary concern is with those who are abused, not the 'happy hookers' or sex buyers. I would think those people might be persuaded to think of someone besides themselves.

[phleshdef]

152. Prostitution is irrelevant to the issue of men abusing women.

Allowing or not allowing prostitution has no bearing on the existence of evil people.

[redqueen]

178. I share the opinion held by the most progressive countries on the planet,

as well as those organizations whose primary focus is reducing the violence against women and children.

So we'll just have to agree to disagree about that.

[phleshdef]

181. You hold the view of people that believe its ok to tell you what you can and can't do with your body

Stop hiding behind this "most progressive countries" crap. Its not winning any arguments.

That carries about as much weight with me as if you'd told me that Jesus is on your side or some BS like that.

[redqueen]

188. I'm not here to "win" an argument.

Like I told EOTE, I don't need lists of numbers and statistics. I've seen tons of charts about global warming. Is that what I used to decide whether it's real? No. I am no scientist. I was influenced by those charts, but more influenced by the consensus of scientists.

I am also no sociologist. I don't study numbers to decide what to believe about violence and prostitution, although I have seen plenty of studies, I am more influenced by the consensus of the experts who deal with these issues as their day-to-day work.

Cite whatever exceptions you like, and believe what you will.

[EOTE]

190. "I don't need lists of numbers and statistics"

Silly us for wanting frivolous things like objective data. Just so you know, there's plenty of objective data which proves global warming. I could provide it to you in seconds.

And just so you know, there IS NO consensus amongst scientists regarding this issue. If you've seen plenty of studies which show a link between the legalization of prostitution and the underground sex trade, surely you'd be able to provide them.

But you can't because you're simply being dishonest. You're more than welcome to make claims about things you know little of, but if you're called on your claim and can't defend it, it's pretty much dead.

[redqueen]

193. Since you're now just outright calling me a liar and claiming I don't know what I'm talking about,

I am really done talking to you.

[EOTE]

195. You've done a plenty good job yourself at that.

You continue to throw about figures for which you have ZERO evidence of. I've even shown you quite a bit of evidence which directly contradicts the assertions you've made, you haven't repaid the courtesy.

The ENTIRE basis of your OP rests upon assertions you've made while providing NOTHING in terms of evidence to back them up. If those assertions fall, so does your OP. But you care so little for objective truth that you don't even attempt to provide this information. You're more than welcome to prove me wrong.

[seabeyond]

196. i never start with eote and if i do,

kick me in the arse.

[phleshdef]

191. Theres no study that can tell me that people deserve to be arrested solely for exchanging $$$ & sex.

[aquart]

214. "Consensus of experts". Is that like "common wisdom"?

You are relying on the subjective data of perceived norms. It was formerly the "consensus of experts" that a mother should not see or hold her dead infant. Times change. New consensus.

You are relying on perceptual fads.

[seabeyond]

119. "ALL sex has a cost... Dinner, Movies or other date activities." ALL women prostitute

theory

no surprise there.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

379. why is this not a surprise?

You're indicating something about the character of the other poster, but I'm not sure what it is you're trying to say.

[seabeyond]

384. lol, why is that not so surprising? nt

[DisgustipatedinCA]

386. Right. That's what I am asking of you.

You needn't answer if you don't feel like it, but just asking the question again doesn't get me very far along.

Thank you.

[seabeyond]

416. why would i call out a poster that implies all women are prostitutes one way or another? now, why

am i not surprised that you would not get that, or why a woman would call out a man that says that.

[iverglas]

157. "for the most part"

Then theirs the FACT that (for the most part) ALL sex has a cost... Dinner, Movies or other date activities. <-- even then sex is not guaranteed. (without mentioning STD's

Sex with me does not have a cost. Never in my life have I traded dinner or a movie or any other activity for sex. Never in my life have I allowed a man to pay for any activity of mine in such a way as to create an imbalance of payments between us. Never. Nor to do anything else that resulted in any other imbalance.

In my household, I am the half of the couple who pays. For everything. Our choice. I have options for fulfilling, interesting, high-paid work. He doesn't. He shovels the snow and weeds the garden and cleans the catboxes and does the laundry and dishes, but that isn't a trade for anything; I do all the cooking (which is a major chore with him being seriously diabetic).

Exactly whom are you talking about, and whom do you imagine you are talking to?

Why is it those that would prefer to pay cash, skip the small talk and "romance" get bashed so harshly?

Why is it that you are portraying all women as prostitutes, not to mention all men as johns?

One might seriously ask whether your own "dating" experience has been so unsuccessful that you really believe that this is an accurate depiction of that relationship.

One would not have to spend much time wondering why, in that case.


At least where it is LEGAL the prostitutes must have regular exams against STD's. best of luck out in the rest of the world without universal health care or absolute honesty between parners.

Interesting you should mention that. You have noticed that the johns are subject to no such requirement?

Who's being protected here?

We have universal health care in Canada. I guess this means we don't need legal prostitution. Phew.

[Cleita]

99. It sounds like a workable solution to the problem where the women

not only suffer exploitation from the private sector, but also from the government that should protect them and who imprisons and fines them instead.

[Harmony Blue]

102. Unfortunately there has been many studies over the years and this is what we know:

*Highest incidence of rape is because of someone a man or woman knows personally
*Highest incidence of murder or abuse happens between those that are married a.k.a. passion crimes
*Casual dating involving ONS or FWB, or FB blurs the line and makes it hard to draw a distinction as to what is prostitution

In Ancient Greece, prostitutes were seen very highly in society (both male and female prostitutes). Prostitution is the least likely to cause "violence" compared to other professions, especially in parts of the world where it is legalized.

[iverglas]

115. knowledgeable progressive voices agree

(This is a press release, so no copyright issues.)

The Elizabeth Fry Society works with women in the criminal justice system in Canada; I directed a local program of court visitors as a volunteer while I was in law school many years ago.

http://www.elizabethfry.ca/wwdcms/uploads/FOR_IMMEDIATE_RELEASE_June_9.doc

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE June 9, 2011

Women’s Groups Coalition to Argue in Court:
The Charter Does Not Guarantee Men a Right to the Buy or Sell Women.

A pan-Canadian coalition of equality-seeking women’s groups will be appearing on June 16, 2011, before the Ontario Court of appeal, in the case between Terri Jean Bedford, Amy Lebovitch, Valerie Scott (Respondents in Appeal) and the Attorney General of Canada (Appellant in Appeal).

The Women’s Coalition for the Abolition of Prostitution will argue to the court to uphold the laws that forbid men from buying, selling and profiting from women bodies, and to strike down laws that criminalize women who are involved in the sex trade.

The Women’s Coalition rejects both the appellants’ position of maintaining the status quo and the respondents’ position of striking down all three provisions in their entirety.

Jeannette Corbiere Lavell, President of the Native Women’s Association of Canada: “Aboriginal women are overrepresented and victimized in the sex industry, which testifies to the link between racism and misogyny in prostitution. Decriminalizing the prostitution industry will only expand the illegal and legal trade of buying and selling women”
<Jeannette Lavell's case was instrumental, decades ago, in achieving greater equality for Aboriginal women>

“The Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies joins other women’s groups and equality-seeking groups of women with lived experience in calling for the decriminalization of women who are prostituted, trafficked or otherwise exploited or objectified in and by the sex trade,” says Kim Pate, Executive Director of CAEFS. “All women are entitled to basic human rights to freedom from want, including adequate standards of living (either through social assistance or a guaranteed livable income), and the provision of social services, health services and educational options. CAEFS continues to denounce, as criminal, the actions of those who promote and profit from the trafficking and sexual exploitation of women and children.”

“To continue to criminalize those (mostly women and girls) prostituted is to further punish the disadvantaged, the coerced, the exploited, the violated” says Lee Lakeman for The Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centers. “But to refuse to continue to criminalize the johns, pimps and brothel owners is to legitimize exploitation and further entrench inequality”. Lakeman for CASAC insists that “Women’s rights compel government protection from all forms of sexist violence and sexual exploitation under both criminal and international human rights law. Criminal law is not enough but essential. Tolerance of sexist violence and sexual exploitation of individual women like all other hate crimes affects the dignity and quality of life of all girls and women”

The members of the Women’s Coalition for the Abolition of Prostitution:
CASAC – Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres
NWAC – Native Women's Association of Canada
CAEFS – Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
RQCALACS Le Regroupement Québécois des Centres d'Aide et de Lutte contre les Agressions à Caractère Sexuel
la CLES – la Concertation des Luttes contre l'Exploitation Sexuelle
Vancouver Rape Relief & Women’s Shelter
AOcVF - Action Ontarienne contre la Violence faite aux Femmes

These are people and organizations whose genuine FEMINIST credentials are not in question.

Here's another. Do forgive the length, but people who are actually interested in the issue, and not just in protecting male power and privilege, will be interested in these things.

http://www.elizabethfry.ca/wwdcms/uploads/Press_Release_-_Former_prostitutes_human_trafficking_victim__allies_speak_out_at_Ontario_Court.doc

*Formerly Prostituted Women & Trafficking survivors say: Prostitution is neither a choice nor empowerment.*
June 16, 2011
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
PRESS CONFERENCE ON THE STEPS OF THE ONTARIO COURT OF APPEAL: June 17 10h00

Formerly prostituted women, human trafficking survivors and allies from across Canada will hold a press conference on the steps of Osgoode Hall on Friday, June 17 at 10am. We will be addressing the arguments made by the interveners and how they do not reflect our lived realities.　

*Coercion, Not Choice***

"From our experiences, we know that the lived realities of women in prostitution are not being accurately portrayed by the theatrics of the women behind this court challenge," says Trisha Baptie of EVE (Formerly Exploited Voices Now Educating). "Prostitution is the end result of a myriad of systemic gender inequalities, including racism, poverty and addiction."

It is no real choice when any person has to choose between either hunger or prostitution. It’s no real choice when prostitution is the only means to escape a bleak existence on a rural reserve or when the social safety nets have been clawed back through thousands of little cuts to the point of being unable to provide any meaningful help.

Ontario Anishnawbek, and in fact all Aboriginal Women in Canada are disproportionately represented in prostitution. The average ages for First Nations females to enter into prostitution are between 11-16 years old .

First Nations women are more likely to be victims of violence and abuse, thanks to a legacy of poverty, colonialism and residential schools. Removing the prostitution laws will further assist in the racial genocide that Canadian First Nations Women struggle with.

In fact on Wednesday, June 15 Allan Young <a law professor supporting the court challenge by a dominatrix and two others> went on record in the Bedford case as saying: "This case has nothing to do with making street prostitutes safer. It is not going to help the women on the street." He also admitted that most women are coerced into prostitution, but this case is for the few who were not forced.

*Who benefits?

*In prostitution the only people with true and free choice are the men who demand paid sexual access to women and children’s bodies. We include children--not to infantilize women, but rather because a large number of women, including two of the women in this charter challenge, were sexually exploited through prostitution under age.

The root problem that allows prostitution and human trafficking to thrive in Canada is the unaddressed male-driven demand for paid sexual access to bodies.

Male demand does not ask if women are there willingly, if she is of age, or if she is the victim of trafficking. Male demand does not ask if she has other options or suffered abuse. The only thing men who pay for sex care about, is sexual access to a body for their own sexual pleasure.

*Laws need to Change*

For Canada to be a truly progressive country with laws rooted in equality that further the dignity of ALL women, our groups are saying that Canadian laws DO have to change. Parliament MUST criminalize the demand, as well as the pimping and procuring of women & children, while decriminalizing the prostituted person.

Prostitution is not the oldest profession, but the oldest OPPRESSION. We must stand up to the patriarchal belief that men must have access to sex on their terms at all times. We will talk frankly and honestly about how the setting aside of these laws is the complete abandonment of marginalized women, particularly aboriginal women and we’ll address how the removal of all laws is a gift to pimps and traffickers. We will talk from our experience as friends of the women murdered by Robert Pickton. <The man who murdered dozens of prostitutes on the west coast over a period of years some 20 years ago.>

While there are three women in Ontario who are happy they won the charter challenge, our question is: "If Canada does not deal with the unchecked male driven demand for paid sex, whose daughter will take their place?"　

*Media Contacts: *

*EVE Exploited Voices Educating
Aboriginal Women's Action Network (AWAN)
*Free – Them
*Program Director of John School
Resist Exploitation Embrace Dignity REED

I hope they will be forgiven their somewhat hyperbolic references to "men" when they are referring to particular men ... who of course have enablers of both sexes.

Some of us actually care about the vulnerable, disadvantaged and victimized, however.

[redqueen]

120. Thank you very, very much for your posts on this issue.

I appreciate how thorough and in-depth your analysis is.

[ChazII]

170. iverglas and redqueen

Thank you for posting on this topic. One of my neighbor's daughters was kidnapped and forced into sexual slavery. This topic hits close to home and I appreciate both of you for shedding more light on this subject.

[redqueen]

172. It is my pleasure to do so. And I'm so very sorry for your neighbor's daughter...

her family, and everyone else affected...

[iverglas]

174. thank you, too

It's unfortunate that at a place like this, these problems can't even be acknowledged and then discussed reasonably.

[pipoman]

244. Honest question

not knowing the specifics of the case you are talking about, I have to wonder..This kidnapping obviously occurred in an atmosphere of illegal prostitution, no? Would it have happened in an atmosphere of regulated legalized prostitution? Nobody likely knows..something to think about though..

[ChazII]

263. The daughter was kidnapped in retaliation to

something her father had done a few years ago. His past was something he was not proud of and that is all that I know. Since I am not extremely close to the family I did not press for more information.

[musette_sf]

202. + one zillion

Thank you for this excellent post. Men SHOULD NOT have any kind of a "right", ever, to buy or sell females.

[Zalatix]

122. Politically incorrect response, I'll probably be hung for this...

Let's assume I can wave a magic wand and all prostitution is ended. Forever. No one even thinks about it anymore.

While you have now ended all human trafficking, which is a damned good thing, you have also created a new problem: a lot of prostitutes sell their bodies to pay for food to feed themselves or their kids. It's not the case with all women, but it is the case with a lot of women.

You have just consigned these women to another form of violence: starvation.

This is not an argument to decriminalize prostitution, but rather, to fix this economy so that women no longer bother to get into prostitution. Although I admit that this doesn't address the issue of human trafficking...

[seabeyond]

128. and this is true also, and should be a part of the equation.

but, i think why it is important to have the conversation honestly is because we pretend legalization cures all problems. it doesnt. it creates more problems as all countries that have done it have found.

dont tie it in a pretty bow.

[Zalatix]

131. I'm at a loss as to how to make prostitution go away. I'd like to see it go away.

But prostitution comes in so many forms, many far more subtle than just picking up a street walker.

Gold digging, for instance...

[seabeyond]

133. agreed. sweden has hit on something that is helping. it certainly is not eliminating it

but reducing it, allowing prostitutes to report crimes, allows police to do their job and is not a comfortable environment for for the trafficking trade.

the big problem in all the countries that legalize it is there are not that many women that chose to do it. they have to bring foriegns in. most of these countries have the vast majority of prostitutes from other countries.

[Scout]

153. well, we can put an end to "gold digging" by rich old farts hanging on to their money...

problem solved!

such a serious, horrible problem it was too.

[lapislzi]

185. As long as value is assigned to the sex act as a commodity

and a human body as its delivery system, you won't escape the economics of it.

[seabeyond]

198. i had no problem escaping the economics of it

wake up call for me at a young age to see all women as prostitutes one way or another. so i never allowed a man to pay all on the date. we split it up.

now i am free to choose sex without being labeled a prostitute.

[Warren Stupidity]

257. They can all move to the shengen special economic zone and work for Foxconn.

Now that the suicide nets are up the death rate is way down.

I'm missing the part where legalization, licensing, and regulation aren't a superior solution to prohibition.

[Zalatix]

419. The problem is that prohibiting or legalizing prostitution doesn't address the problem

at its core.

[Warren Stupidity]

420. saltpeter

but alas, it is a myth.

[leveymg]

125. Prostitution is a contractual relationship. Profit may be theft, but it isn't necessarily assault.

It's up each individual to decide how he or she makes a living and what they want to buy, sell or rent. Provided there is no duress, it isn't necessarily exploitative.

[originalpckelly]

126. You provide no actual data to back up your claims.

Why should we simply take you for your word?

I tend, in the lack of data, to err on the side of freedom.

If you can give away a fuck for nothing, why not be able to sell it?

[redqueen]

138. There is so much data on this that it is now common knowledge for such disreputable organizations

as the UN, the US Dept of State, major human rights organizations, etc.

I originally planned to pepper it with sources, but the fact is that for every source I point out, someone else could come along and point at one that disagrees (just like with the global warming debate). Unfortunately for victims of violence related to prostitution, this topic isn't given so much funding for studies as climate change.

Anyone who finds the topic interesting is of course capable of digging around to see which studies they prefer to believe.

[MineralMan]

137. Prostitution is inextricably associated with violence.

That's a more accurate way to say it, I think. There is no question that prostitution is a very dangerous way to make money. There is no question that many, if not most, prostitutes become prostitutes through coercion and violence, but prostitution isn't violence. The two terms are simply not equally equivalent.

Personally, I deplore prostitution. I would never pay someone for sex. I believe that the kind of prostitution that is common in the United States is especially bad, and that enforcing laws against paying someone to have sex with you would go a long way toward reducing its prevalence. Every state I know of has laws against that. Those are the laws that should be enforced, along with laws against human trafficking and pimping. Laws against being a prostitute make no sense, as far as I am concerned.

I had a good friend in college who paid for her education, through a PhD program, by being a call girl. She worked through an agency and worked about once a week. The agency screened the customers very closely, and she never reported any violence. I'm sure she was an exception to the typical prostitute. Was she OK? No. Over the four years I knew her, she became more and more cynical in general and lost a good deal of the self-esteem she exhibited when I first knew her. This was in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Since then, I have completely lost touch with her. She moved to the university where she did her PhD work, and I went in a different direction. So I cannot say how she is doing now. We were never romantically or sexually involved, but were just friends with some common interests.

As I said, she was an exception, at least as long as I knew her.

For most prostitutes, however, life is not as simple, and I have no doubt that most experience violence at some point. That's why I oppose it as it is today. I don't know enough about other places where prostitution is done differently. I do know that it is a universal thing to some degree almost everywhere. I don't come in contact with it, and have no interest in coming in contact with it, so my information is all third hand, beyond that one friend from years ago.

[redqueen]

139. Yes, it is a metaphor. A common one used by those who are activists in this area.

Thank you for your anecdote about the woman you knew. There are many surveys which interview women who either are or were prostitutes, both streetwalkers and the more well-protected types. Most of those surveys paint a very bleak picture.

[phleshdef]

156. Sex and black markets are both inextricably associated with violence.

Violent people who want sex are likely to use violence to obtain it.

Violent people who want to keep their money are likely to use violence in order to obtain it.

Violent people tend to dwell more in the black market culture because its an easier world to find ways to act on your violence.

Whether or not people have the right to buy and sell sex has bearing on any of the above, other than the fact that denying the right creates a more powerful black market. At least if we legalized it, we could combat that aspect of it more effectively.

[MineralMan]

160. Prostitution is part of the black market in the US.

Not much difference, there. Legalization might help with that a little, but the dangers of exploitation and violence would still be high.

[phleshdef]

165. People are subject to danger and exploitation of violence just by walking down the street...

...in a dangerous part of town.

That doesn't mean we start arresting people for walking down the street.

You could name all kinds of things that subject people to exploitation and violence. That would never justify taken away someone's freedom to engage in those things peacefully and ethically just because if the possibility that bad people might get involved in it and do bad things.

Anti-prostitution laws are nothing more than an attempt to legislate subjective morality.

[Rex]

411. Indirectly people are yes, not directly

like the slave-sex trade found around the world. Laws that are anti-prostitution are geared toward protecting children. Did you know that? I seriously doubt it.

[phleshdef]

421. Prostitution involving consenting adults does not need to be illegal in order to protect children

Spare me the bullshit.

[Boojatta]

212. "I have no doubt that most experience violence at some point"

What would prevent you from saying the same thing if you were talking about law enforcement officers rather than prostitutes?

[MineralMan]

249. But, you see, I'm not talking about police officers. The topic in this thread

is prostitution. If you want to talk about police officers, there's a button on the forum's main screen that lets you start a new thread.

I will be glad to discuss that with you if you care to start a coherent thread on the subject. This thread is not about that.

[pipoman]

259. The vast majority of prostitution

now days is "Craigs List" prostitution. that is advertising by prostitutes on members only or public bulletin boards. Most are independent, work for agencies, or work in small groups. Do you hear about violence on prostitutes? Yes. Is it the norm? No. Most are working like your friend. Most patrons are simply sexually frustrated men, or men seeking sexual gratification with another person without commitment. Criminalizing it has done not one thing but drive it underground, which is never a good thing..drugs, alcohol, abortion, and prostitution are less crime ridden when not criminal.

[redqueen]

143. "Human rights expert says supporting prostitution is violence against women"

http://www.lau.edu.lb/news-events/news/archive/human_rights_expert_says_suppo/

A Swedish-Canadian lawyer, feminist and human rights expert, Gunilla S. Ekberg, spoke about the relationship between prostitution and violence against women in a lecture entitled “International Situation on Prostitution and Trafficking in Human Beings: A Feminist Analysis” at LAU on April 8.

“Prostitution is the keystone in holding up a patriarchal society,” said Ekberg in the opening remarks of her lecture, held in the Irwin Hall – Conference Room, at the Beirut campus.

The lecture was organized by LAU’s Institute for Women’s Studies in the Arab World in cooperation with the NGO KAFA (enough) Violence and Exploitation, and incidentally came just one day after Lebanon passed a law protecting women against domestic violence.

Attended by women’s studies students and academics, the Sweden-based lawyer discussed how prostitution should be regarded as being equivalent to violence against women and that condoning the practice is a mistake.

More at link.

[bowens43]

144. Prostitution should be legal.

There is no reason that this should be prohibited for consenting adults.

I find it appalling that some support the idea that a person can not be paid what they could choose to do for free without consequence.

It's just silly.

[redqueen]

145. Did you read anything about the topic?

Or do you have your mind made up already and simply came into the thread to make a dismissive comment?

[EOTE]

158. Your mind is clearly made up on the subject.

So much so that any requests to see evidence of your claims is met with dismissive claims that evidence isn't needed as what you say is common knowledge. If there was ever clearer evidence of a mind being made up on a subject, I haven't seen it.

[redqueen]

164. Yes, those stupid Scandinavian countries,

making up stories to limit people's freedom.

You're right, I was totally wrong to believe all these lies. I totally believe you now, and disavow all the progressive countries and organizations that make up all these bullshit claims.

[EOTE]

168. Making up what, exactly? You've still yet to provide a single scientific study on the matter.

So it's rather hard to address that which doesn't exist. But since you seem prone to strawmen, I'll address one right away. I've heard a "statistic" thrown about a number of times about how after Germany legalized prostitution, sex trafficking rose dramatically. That's absolutely not the case and as of now, sex trafficking seems to be experiencing a fairly large drop. It would be rather sensible to attribute that drop to the legalization of prostitution. But since that doesn't conform to your already determined mind, you certainly won't be seeing it that way.

http://rightswork.org/2010/10/claim-%E2%80%9Cgerman%E2%80%99s-legalized-prostitution-brought-more-exploitation-than-emancipation-to-women%E2%80%9C/

[phleshdef]

186. Who needs any study? Its a question of personal liberty.

People should not go to jail over the simple act of exchanging sex and money. The problem here is that the OP is attempting to conflate all occurrences of prostitution together to make the case that anyone who doesn't want to continue locking people up for the simple act are somehow supporting human trafficking and its an intellectually dishonest argument.

[EOTE]

189. I would certainly agree with this.

And I'd agree with your assessment of the OP. However, if the poster is going to make continued claims without offering the least bit of evidence to support them, I think she should be called out on that.

[RC]

146. Something left out of the discussion so far.

We are social animals. We tend to congregate in groups. We thrive on touch. In most of us our sex drive is as strong as our drive to satisfy our hunger for food. Given the right conditions, we will kill for a scrap of moldy bread.

Babies die without this loving, caring touch. Adults developed mental issues without this closeness. WE all need a certain minimum about of closeness, interaction with others to remain healthy.

Sex reminds us we are animals. That upsets some people who think we are somehow above the fray of survival among the other life forms on this planet.
To remind these people that we are descended from apes usually brings arguments from them. Actually they are correct, but in a wrong way. We are not only descended from apes, we are still apes ourselves.

Being social, as all apes are, we desire closeness, intimacy with others, you know, our friends and acquiescence? It is normal to pair off with the ones that are willing satisfy our sexual appetite, for these others have the same drives as we do. These others are normally our friends and friends do favors or perform services for each other. If they are just acquaintances or strangers, doing the favor or service the exchange is usually money. Little or no real intimacy needed. Our needs will get satisfied one way or another.


“One thing i don't understand is sex is legal and selling things is legal but selling sex is illegal.”
George Carlin

[redqueen]

147. A hug from a family member or friend fulfills the need for touch.

I doubt buying hugs would create a black market for human trafficking/sex slaves.

Buying sex is not buying intimacy.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

223. It's pretty clear to me you have no concept of what a sex therapist....

...or a courtesan is or does.

Your ability to dismiss a segment of the population who suffers from sexual anxiety by telling them to "go hug a family member" shows your insensitivity.

[redqueen]

229. Sex is not a need.

Physical touch is, but that isn't sex. That's all I'm saying.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

234. Do you believe that sex enriches one's life and is part of a complete human experience?

[redqueen]

235. Yes, so does art. And music. And games.

None of these is a 'need'.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

238. Have you given up sex, to show it's not a need?

And would you reach out to someone who didn't have music or art their lives because you felt they were missing something?

[redqueen]

239. No, but I have given it up for years

not to prove anything, but because I want interested in anyone.

Music and art are things. Peoples bodies are not things.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

243. You're the one who compared sex to music and art

Do you believe that the act of sex requires viewing the other person's body as a "thing"?

[redqueen]

293. Of course not. It is the sale of access to the person's body that commodifies them.

I didn't compare it. I was giving examples of other things that also enrich our lives, but which also are not needs.

[RC]

258. The sex is part of the touch.

It is a continuation of the touch.

[redqueen]

304. Sex is way more than just touch.

Many, many people live full, rich lives without sex.

The promotion of the idea that sex is a 'need' causes many problems. Serious problems.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

396. You can say this comfortably because you've had sex

Read up about involuntary celibacy. There are many men and women who've never had sex at all, and they struggle with it because they tried to do all the "right things" to have an intimate romantic relationship, and can't.

And yes, sex is more than touch, but intimacy is more than a hug from a friend or a family member. Anyone who has had a romantic relationship should know that.....they should.....maybe.

[seabeyond]

149. and the reason women are not buying men at the same rate? they are all that, too. nt

[RC]

162. Biologically, women have more at stake (pregnancy), so they are more choosey.

A few minutes and some sperm is all it costs the man. It could cost the woman years in child rearing or even her life at birth.
Take reproduction out of the equation and women can be and often are as driven as any man.

[seabeyond]

166. well...

at least you gave me a post that is not so easily refuted, unlike posters above, lol.

thanks.

i really think it is more conditioned behaviors, but your post at least is respectful to the female sex drive. thanks.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

232. I think your view is a little too stark but I get the point

There are men and women out there who suffer from social anxieties, as well as sexual ones. Women have been conditioned to supress these feelings by the puritanical society, which is why they don't seek out male escorts as often as men do. The totally undiscussed topic of men seeking escorts is that man of these men would never have an intimate contact with a woman if it were not for escorts. And these men aren't seeking the $50 streetwalker who wants to do her job and go. They are seeking a sex therapist or courtesan who will touch them, beyond the physical act of sex. These sex workers are not being trafficked, many of them are independant women who have their own screening methods and work with companies that will ensure their safety with clients.

But a blanket statement by the OP calls this prostitution and violence as well I guess, and she would wipe it out the same way by painting it with the same brush as the child sex trade.

[Upton]

148. Prostitution should be legalized..

what two consenting adults do with their own bodies is none of anybody else's damn business..whether they be fundies or feminists..

[DeathToTheOil]

179. No it isn't!

[Warren DeMontague]

200. "entitlement" is thinking that it's your job to tell consenting adults what sorts of

voluntary, mutually consensual arrangements they can enter into.

if the problem is coercion, non-consent, non-adults, or violence, these are all situations that can be mitigated by legalization, regulation, and de-marginalization.

However, I think if you're up front & honest you'll admit that the problem here, as you define it, is a purely philosophical objection to sex as something someone pays for, sex as something someone sells, sex as commodity- when sex, we are told, 'should not be' a commodity.

Except as humans, we commoditize and offer exchanges for all sorts of shit- even stuff other people do for non-money reasons... taking care of old people, walking dogs, playing sports... what happened to playing sports for the love of the game? Well, yes, but it's also a multi-billion dollar industry.

You're not 'protecting sex workers' by 'reducing demand'- you're putting them out of business. I'm sure you think they'd appreciate that kind of 'protection', but what if they don't? Again, your entitlement mentality is you saying, in essence- I know better than you what is good for you, what you should do with your own body, and the only reason you think you're "choosing" to do something I disagree with is because you've been brainwashed, victimized, and you're no longer an adult capable of making up your own mind about shit.

[iverglas]

211. is there the remotest chance ...

However, I think if you're up front & honest you'll admit that the problem here, as you define it, is a purely philosophical objection to sex as something someone pays for, sex as something someone sells, sex as commodity- when sex, we are told, 'should not be' a commodity.

.. of you refraining from making false statements about other members of this website, anytime in the near future?

You are telling someone that she is not being honest -- because she does not "admit" what you allege her view of the problem is, when she has clearly stated her view (and you have chosen, as usual, not to address anything actually said or any other actual issue at hand).

Disgusting, pure and simple.

What passes for "progressive" thought in this place never ceases to amaze me.

No, strike that. We're going to stop feigning surprise. Or disappointment.

Disgust is what remains.

[Eliminator]

215. Stop pretending

We all know what you and the others who hang in the feminist group think on these subjects. You need only look at a history of all your posts, or just go in there and see all your discussions amongst yourselves every time this comes up anywhere else. Just because she doesn't explicitly say "I'm against sex as a commodity" doesn't make the reply a false statement.

You're against pornography. You're against prostitution. You're against cheerleaders. You're against beauty pageants. Anything remotely sexual involving a woman is sexist. For Christ's sake a thread about LEGO toys with little girl figurines turned into a flame war because some of you had a problem with THAT.

You're all free to have your opinions and to express them. But don't pretend we don't notice.

[iverglas]

216. it's the number two cheerleader

Stop pretending?

Stop misrepresenting. You. Stop.

Hahaha. I don't actually think you're capable.

Nothing here for you to reply to.

[Warren DeMontague]

219. I'll take "Zen Telegrams" for 400, Alex!

[Warren DeMontague]

218. Square Boobs!

Those lego figurines had SQUARE BOOBS!

[redqueen]

225. "Anything remotely sexual involving a woman is sexist"

This is patently untrue.

The fact that you don't understand why many people have a problem with the constant hypersexualization and objectification of women is causing you to be confused about what people are saying.

Not all sexual things involving women also involve objectification, dehumanization or hypersexualization.

[Warren DeMontague]

268. No. But anything involving a man being sexually attracted to a woman, particularly on the basis of

physical appearance, any public expression of admiration for sexual attractiveness of a woman, any display of female attractiveness that could be considered to be arousing to a man, any woman wearing anything more revealing than sweats or flannel jammies (not that those can't look good!).. that is when it becomes "sexist", or "hypersexualization" or "objectification" or any of the other bs babble terms that get thrown around like they actually mean something.

Women are allowed to be sexual, preferably with a romance novel, or something from the good vibrations catalog (which also carries porn now! So maybe not so much) it's only when male gaze phallocentric patriarchal nasty man-sex gets involved, is there a problem.

[redqueen]

278. Wrong again.

You seem to be intent on seeing only what you want to... demonized, cartoony versions of man-hating feminists.

Try actual communication instead of putting words in people's mouths, misrepresenting their arguments, etc.

[Warren DeMontague]

365. I'm trying to imagine a thread where men expressing admiration for a sexy, scantily clad female

wouldn't cause an entirely predictable freak-out.

...Nope. Can't fathom one.

[redqueen]

368. On a forum or in a place that was intended for people to objectify women.

Or most other boards on the net, and places in the world, by default, in other words.

This forum is supposed to be about politics. Not yet another forum for men to act like the cartoon wolf and women to join in in the constant critiquing of women's appearance.

There's even a subforum here where men are doing that, right now. Go there and do it. Guess what, no outrage.

The thing you seem to be missing is context. In the context of a political discussion board, the objectification of women is unwelcome. It should be unwelcome anywhere not specifically intended for that purpose, because as we all know there are precious few spaces where women aren't confronted with that crap.

[Warren DeMontague]

372. You've decided that it's your job to enter that "safe space" to helpfully tell men

how we should or shouldn't be- something that, I'm sure, if I tried in the Feminists forum, would cause a massive series of meltdowns.. give it time, I'm sure you'll decide you 'need' to shut that thread down too. I'm sure you think it's the height of tolerance to allow it, for now.

The real problem, again, is that you consider men being sexually attracted to women in any way, shape, or form, and expressing admiration for their appearance in any way shape or form, to be "objectification". Which kind of proves my point.

[redqueen]

373. You are so sure you know what other people are thinking...

and the funny thing is that you seem to be one of the least perceptive people I've ever encountered.

No, I don't give a flip about that thread. And as I said in the more recent thread, I was not trying to tell anyone what to do, or how to be. I was trying to open a conversation about the freedom men still don't have for themselves. That's it.

And no, again, attraction is not objectification. You think you've made a point but all you've done is demonstrate once more that you simply don't understand what sexual objectification is.

[Warren DeMontague]

375. what makes you so sure the men in the men's group aren't capable of opening our own

conversations?

Look, you want a safe space. Cool. But I think fair is fair. If I came into the Feminists group trying to "open a conversation" (just tryin' to help!) about all the things I think are "wrong" with women, you would shit a fucking brick.

I understand exactly what 'sexual objectification' is- it's a bullshit term that means "what other people do when they're sexually attracted to someone in a way I don't approve of."

[redqueen]

378. I didn't say ANYTHING about what *I* think.

I posted a video which addressed an issue. The person whose thoughts those belonged to was... *gasp*... a MAN!

If you posted a video of a woman saying things about women's issues in the women's world group, there might be an uproar, there was certainly one over my having dared to post something you all eventually got around to saying for yourselves some time later.

And no, you don't understand it at all. You've just proven it yet again, for the bazillionth (but certainly not the last) time.



edit: I did actually say something about what I think... specifically that I thought it was a brilliant campaign and that I hoped it would spark discussion. That's it. And what's funny is despite all the hue and cry about how awful it was that I dared to post that video, you all finally got around to saying it yourselves recently and ... what ho! No outcry about how awful those people were, as was done regarding Dr. Katz.

[Warren DeMontague]

404. and there are plenty of *gasp* women and feminists who identify as sex positive

and pro-sex and pro legalization of prostitution and most emphatically NOT anti-porn. See, and they're women! And that must mean it's okay for me to come into the feminism forum and post something by Susie Bright or Annie Sprinkle. 'Cuz they're women, see?

And then the fact that there are even women who occasionally dare to poke their heads out in that forum who agree with me on those issues... as evidenced by the neverending fights-- not to mention shitfits and tantrums from the old guard-- over the dreaded '3rd wavers'... well, see, that must REALLY mean it would be okay for me to come in there and post some pro-porn agitprop saying how women should lighten up.

If it was written by a woman...

...right?

[stevenleser]

408. In fact, part of the reason for the third wave was a rejection of attitudes such as the OPs

In 20 years, this point will be moot, the overwhelming majority of women feminists who came of age after 1985 and learn of both types of feminism are third wavers.

Most young women, women of color, Lesbian and bisexual women and various other cohorts run away from second wave feminism and toward the third wave as fast as they can once they learn about it. It's such a more positive vision of feminism and equality for women and that goes way beyond sex topics.

You can see it in this thread. Second wave feminism is about who and what is bad. There have been a number of statements of outright misandery and one of the folks commenting walked it back after they initially said "Men..." and then followed it with something bad. They then tried to walk it back to 'most men...' attached to a negative statement which still is bigoted.

So, second wave feminism is about most men are bad, these forms of consensual sex are bad, porn is bad, and did we mention most men are bad?

And while they are spending time and effort on telling us why all of these things are bad and in fact why they think many of US are bad, they are not working on equal pay for equal work which everyone here agrees with them about, they are not rallying us behind getting more women elected or getting more women promoted. Again, all of these are things with which 100% of DUers agree with them. They dont want to concentrate on that, they want to concentrate on something negative and they want to make divisive and over the top statements that cross the line into bigotry against men.

This is the kind of thing where, any reasonable person from any discriminated against group, African Americans, the LGBT community, etc, would be looking at folks doing this within their groups and would say "WTF are you doing?" Many women here have in fact done that but these folks really cant be reached.

[Warren DeMontague]

217. All you seem to do, these days, is accuse people of lying about you or other people

the shtick is gettin' old.

Yeah, I know, you'll probably do it again over this post.


Here's an idea; either respond to what I've actually said, or don't.

[iverglas]

220. odd - and there you go again

I was talking about what you said about someone else altogether, since I was replying to your post about that person. I even quoted you. Perhaps you need new eyeglasses.


Here's an idea; either respond to what I've actually said, or don't.

Hahahahahaha!

Your face goes here

[redqueen]

226. I don't think they're intending to lie or misrepresent arguments.

I think they are genuinely confused as to what the problem is.

For some people, it seems that objectification IS sex. They can't separate it. So anyone who is against objectification, they perceive as 'hating sex'.

[iverglas]

231. oh, I'm not talking about that

It's possible somebody could be confused about what the problem is. The kind of people I know would want to learn more in order to understand, of course.

But nobody could have been confused about what you said in your OP, let alone to the point of totally disregarding it in favour of demanding that you admit the words he wished to place in your mouth.

Ew. Sorry about that image. Hmm. Maybe it's just one of those menz urges ... See a woman, put something in her mouth ...

[redqueen]

233. Ah yes, you're right.

It's just painful to think that people would intentionally ignore these things.

But as we've seen, it's not exactly a new phenomenon. There is privilege to be maintained here.

[iverglas]

242. I have to begone

It's time for me to whip up one of my delicious and nutrious meals for my man. Well, "whip up", not. I spend much of my weekend, every couple of weeks, doing prep one day (having already done the planning for the shopping, and the shopping, which is rather like planning and executing a military campaign, with an armload of cotton bags to bring home the spoils), and cooking the next day, and carb-counting and packaging and labelling and freezing -- when you're cooking two meals a day for a 6'4 diabetic who eats like a horse (and remains skeletally thin), it's not a 10-minute job, and it's best done with full concentration and a calculator, apart from a large stock of kitchen implements.

But I gather that if I don't have food to offer in trade, I won't get any sex!

And then I'd die.

[redqueen]

294. LOL!

Also, gotta say... I admire your efficiency, that is a seriously impressive system!

[Boojatta]

248. I have a question.

I don't want to take either side in this sub-thread, and at least one reason is that it's not clear to me what the two sides are.

What is the difference between making something an object and making something a commodity?

philosophical objection to sex as something someone pays for, sex as something someone sells, sex as commodity- when sex, we are told, 'should not be' a commodity

For some people, it seems that objectification IS sex. They can't separate it. So anyone who is against objectification ...

This part of the debate requires some kind of decoding. I hope that you can see how, from the point of view of people who don't assign any particularly precise meaning to the words "commodity" or "objectification", this part of the debate might seem like a conflict between people who say that eggs should be opened at the narrow end and people who say that eggs should be opened at the wide end.

One use of the word "commodity" is to identify a kind of thing that is traded in very large bulk quantities, with differentiation based on a relatively simple grading system. For example, oil, cotton, orange juice, and coffee beans are examples of commodities. You have probably hard of "light sweet crude" and there would be no need for such a designation if it were the only kind of oil that is traded. Thus, there is some differentiation, but not nearly as much as in the case of things that aren't commodities, such as books, art, real estate, etc.

[iverglas]

251. simple answer

For some people, it seems that objectification IS sex. They can't separate it. So anyone who is against objectification ...

That is what was said. The objectification is of WOMEN, not "sex". And women are not objects.

The other thing you quoted reads, in full:

However, I think if you're up front & honest you'll admit that the problem here, as you define it, is a purely philosophical objection to sex as something someone pays for, sex as something someone sells, sex as commodity- when sex, we are told, 'should not be' a commodity.

That is just some random person's misrepresenation of what is actually being said.

Why didn't you notice that, and why did you present that out-of-context bit of it as if it was something someone had really said?

It is WOMEN who are being "traded", not sex.

[Boojatta]

254. Well, I don't know that I qualify for non-random status myself.

However, I do hope that, when I am misguided, I can sometimes get a clue that I am misguided, and I hope that getting a clue will motivate me to change my point of view, rather than motivate me to ignore or evade challenging questions. Of course, I might go silent for a while when I'm in the process of getting a clue, or when I'm in the process of studying the clue.

That is just some random person's misrepresentation of what is actually being said.

Why didn't you notice that

I did notice that it was an attempt made, by one participant in the debate, to represent (or misrepresent) the position of that participant's opponent. It's always a good idea to ask a question rather than to claim to be able to mind read one's opponent's position, but I don't think that the poor sportsmanship is an absolute guarantee that the thing is a misrepresentation.

I was hoping to see a clear contrast between it and the OP's actual position re objectification. The contrast didn't seem particularly clear.

[Warren DeMontague]

266. You also thought the 'random person' was misrepresenting your objection to a thread

about a "beauty contest!!! on DU!!!" , never mind that I helpfully provided a quote with your own words stating exactly that.

No, I'm not "misrepresenting what is actually being said".. Here, from the OP:

No one is entitled to use another person's body. Everyone has sexual needs, but most people who are unable to form a relationship (however long lasting or meaningful) in order to fulfill those needs with another person manage to get by using masturbation. The idea that for some people, masturbation simply is not good enough, and they absolutely must have access to another person's body, is illogical and unfounded.

Note the word "use". There is no room for acknowledgement, anywhere, that a sex-for-money exchange might involve willing consenting adult participants. No, it's about "use". Sorry, that doesn't sound to me like this is just about victims of violence or coercion. The idea, here, is that even the people who think they're making a choice freely are somehow being "used".


She states elsewhere in the OP, quite clearly, that she believes the primary goal should be protecting the victims of violence and coercion. I strongly suspect everyone here, even libertarian-minded entitlement befuddled menz such as myself, would agree. The difference of opinion is on how to go about achieving that goal, or whether "protecting" sex workers (never mind putting them out of business) by the satisfactory-to-the-people-mad-about-entitlement process of 'going after demand' is really the best way to achieve that, as opposed to (again) legalization and regulation and strong protection for the people who (believe it or not) are consenting adults freely choosing this line of work.

However, I think it's pretty obvious that there's an agenda here, and it goes beyond just being concerned for sex workers (concerned to the point of wanting to take their jobs away from them, but nevermind about that) ... so am I misrepresenting the idea that some folks have their fluffers in a nut over 'men thinking they're entitled to womens' bodies', whatever that means?

My bottom line is the same as it has always been, and I know -I know- it pisses some people off to no end: CONSENTING ADULTS. If everyone involved is a freely consenting adult, it's their call. Not yours.

[Warren DeMontague]

269. "your face goes here"

kinky, man.

[Rex]

204. Since slavery and prostitution go hand and hand

I have to agree with you in general.

[phleshdef]

228. Slavery and labor often go hand in hand too. I guess we should arrest people for working.

Same logic.

[Rex]

410. Not really what you said is silly.

What I said is true.

[phleshdef]

422. Um no, what you're saying is based on puritanical bullshit that seeks to control people's bodies.

Last edited Wed Jan 11, 2012, 11:40 AM - Edit history (2)

Keep your nose out of other people's bedrooms.

There is sexual slavery and there is slave labor. Both are a biproduct of people seeking to enslave others. Sex nor labor in and of itself are the culprits.

No one is advocating that forced prostitution or prostitution of children or any of that other dark shit be made legal. NO ONE. Stop pretending like someone is just so you can have an argument to make. Its pathetic and you know better.

At the end of the day, you have no business locking consenting adults up in jail based solely on the fact that they had sex and money was involved. None. Its not your fucking business. I'll say that a thousand times. NOT. YOUR. FUCKING. BUSINESS.

[pipoman]

205. Quite the diatribe there..

I expected to find a link to some advocacy group there at the bottom. Turns out it is simply a baseless emotional projection. Any time I read, "According to most studies", I brace myself for misinformation based on one persons agenda or position. In this case a woman (presumably) trying to explain away innate human nature, which she refuses to understand, by making assumptive and fictitious claims about such silliness as 'men feeling entitled'. Then goes further to demonize those innate natural impulses by tying them to reprehensible activities and behaviors. Just more assertions without merit here..

Edit Then to start the whole thing with the demonstrably false statement "Prostitution is Violence" further destroys your credibility.

[redqueen]

206. What's the point in linking to advocacy groups?

All that happens is those who disagree link to their chosen studies. My original plan was to link to lots of sources, but there are so many. Which one is the best? And anyway they don't all link to studies with numbers, so they'd only be dismissed.

Like I've explained above... I didn't study charts and numbers in order to come around to the view that mankind has played a part in global warming. I have seen them but what swayed me more than my own understanding (I'm no scientist) was that most scientists do agree.

Others disagree, but from what I've read there is more consensus than not about the link between violence and prostitution, and between legalized prostitution and increased demand, and therefore increases in human trafficking, underground prostitution, etc. Feel free to look up whatever studies you like in order to bolster your view.

My intent here was not to play 'dueling studies'. My intent was to spark discussion and thought and I think I've been successful at doing that.

[EOTE]

207. Countries with legalized prostitution have 257% less violence due to the sex-trade.

So, by you advocating the prohibition of prostitution, you're saying that you want violence against women. That's not a very progressive position, is it?

Studies to back up my claims? That's certainly not necessary. Everyone knows that what I say is common knowledge.

[arely staircase]

208. this is no diferrent than the drug war - prohibition leads to black markets leads to

social pathology leads to crime leads to poverty then back to the black market.

regardless of what one might think of sex work as a career or the morals of anyone participating on either side of the equation, i believe that many of the social costs associated with prostitution rise from its legal/regulatory status.

[redqueen]

210. I disagree. See posts 182 and 192.

I agree with those organizations which have determined that where prostitution is legalized, demand goes up, and demand for illegal prostitutes also goes up, which increases human trafficking. (Apparently Germany is an exception to this rule, for whatever reason. I find that doesn't persuade me to begin writing off victims of coercion or human trafficking as collateral damage.)

[arely staircase]

213. that is a good argument for better regulation, but not for going back to an

exclusively underground system in those places.

[phleshdef]

230. Demand also goes up in countries where they allow people to have sex at all.

I guess we should ban all sex.

And no I don't know if what I just said is even true. But it was more meant to illustrate the flaws in your logic.

[EOTE]

282. Germany is one of the few countries that has solid data on the subject before and after legalization

So that is why it's one of the few figures touted. You're not going to find much before and after data on many other countries which have recently legalized/prohibited prostitution.

[TheKentuckian]

329. Are the Germans doing something different or is it just an anomaly?

[redqueen]

330. I would suspect it has something to do with reporting issues.

Many times when large sums of money are involved, there is an impetus to fudge figures in order to maintain profits.

Not an accusation or assertion, just a suspicion. It seems far more likely than the idea that they're just so completely different than people in Amsterdam, Australia, etc.

[seabeyond]

334. 70% Rise in German Sex Trafficking Due to Legal Prostitution?

http://news.change.org/stories/70-rise-in-german-sex-trafficking-due-to-legal-prostitution

i didnt read the article, but i didnt hear things are fine in germany. where have you heard this.

thanks

[redqueen]

338. This is why I didn't do the link thing in the OP.

For any source you have another source saying, 'Nuh uh they're lying we talked to these other prostitutes and they say they love it and everything is great so screw those whiny prostitutes (even if they're underage) who have a problem with occasional rapes, beat downs, murders, or whatever.'

[seabeyond]

346. i get that. certainly. i am not gonna concede all is bless in germany. nt

[LadyHawkAZ]

391. This is the link that the article drew from

http://edition.presstv.ir/detail/127565.html

"Over the course of the last five years, the number of investigations has risen continuously from 317 to 534. This means an increase of 70 percent over five years and 11 percent last year alone. We attach great importance to this form of criminal activity because the human dignity of the victims is violated," said Jorg Ziercke, the Chief Commissioner of the Federal Criminal Police Office of Germany, Press TV reported Monday.

That is, the number of *investigations* has risen, not the number of *traffickers*. That suggests not that the number of traffickers has risen, but that the amount of resources being directed at them has increased. This is why I'm suspicious of those touted "rise in trafficking" reports- this seems to be what's behind it.

[seabeyond]

418. .

i was for legalization. and the issue was not real big for me for different reasons. the only thing i generally addressed with prostitution is not wrap it up in a pretty bow. see it for what it is. there are all kinds of elements in it. good bad and ugly. sex slave an ugly. men who have never had a woman (though we dont consider the women that have never had men for conditioning and societal/cultural reasons) having sex for the first time a good. and a whole lot inbetween.

a couple years ago i was watching a program about mexico and their drug trade. one police officer was opposed to the legalization, another for. it was in an area where pot was legalized. (not sure the country). the cop said because of the legalization they had a hard time going after the criminal element and doing their job. cop for, just felt a useless battle.

i have heard these countries legalizing drugs, prostitution having their troubles.

i want fact. unfortunately, with a battle you get two sides.

so, this will be another that i sit back and watch to see how it shakes out.

it makes sense to me the problems that are caused by legalizing. i see life as action/reaction. and every action is going to create a reaction. we need to learn from that. i tend to agree with sweden. but this escalation of sex slave trade could just be the whole pornification of us escalating the demand and people feeling they have the right to anything and anyone.

internets has had a huge effect on our society that we have not even started delving into, not to mention the collapse of the family structure in many ways, for many reasons. a lot should be factored in, that is not.

and it could be the reasoning that you posted on your link. or not.

[LadyHawkAZ]

430. This got posted upthread

http://rightswork.org/2010/10/claim-%E2%80%9Cgerman%E2%80%99s-legalized-prostitution-brought-more-exploitation-than-emancipation-to-women%E2%80%9C/

and the report it drew from- from an anti-trafficking NGO:
http://www.kok-buero.de/data/Gegendarstellung_080610.pdf

There's a link in there to the government crime stats if you speak German. Somehow I missed this- the crime reports actually show a drop in trafficking from the years before legalization.

Sweden is experiencing its own problems; much like the "increase in trafficking" German report, the supposed success has been handed around as fact, when in fact reports have been out since not long after it went into effect showing that it had driven workers further underground. A sample:
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2009/0630/p10s01-woeu.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11437499
http://www.thelocal.se/9621/20080110/

Yet the Swedish government is still touting the drop in VISIBLE prostitutes as "success" and insisting that hidden prostitution has not grown. It's successful- IF their goal is to sell their ideology. If their goal is improving life for the workers, it's failed miserably.

I'm not going to disagree that legalization has its problems, but as I pointed out elsewhere, so does OSHA. I don't think anyone with any sanity would try to sell legalization as a perfect cure-all. Properly regulated, it DOES make the work safer for the workers and that is my main goal.

[RetroLounge]

237. Is this your monthly or semi-annual anti-prostitution thread?

Or do you alternate them monthly with your anti-porn threads?

:yawn:

RL

[redqueen]

296. Aw, your obsession with me is cute.

In a creepy, deluded sort of way.

Go search for one of my 'monthly' threads. Go on, find one. Or my other anti-prostitution thread. Any other one.

Or you could consider re-connecting with reality.

[seabeyond]

297. it is the fact that you dared to speak out in ONE op that has some rattled. nt

[RetroLounge]

405. So a reply to you is now an obsession?

RL

[redqueen]

426. No, you imagining scenarios where I'm posting monthly or semi-annually

is evidence of you being obsessed.

See you the next time you decide to dream up some random idiocy about me and pretend it's a meaningful rejoinder to anything at all.

[RetroLounge]

431. Once again, all you say is something is evidence

just because you say it is.

Just like most of your threads.

See you the next time you try to push the causes of actual feminists back 50 years.



RL

[redqueen]

432. Yep, exactly. Your'e just talking nonsense.

Making crap up as usual. I guess at least you're keeping yourself entertained.

Like a bad penny, I've come to expect your meaningless and dishonest contributions.

[RetroLounge]

433. Obsess much?

RL

[maggiesfarmer]

245. One new thought and a summary of what I read

Great discussion for the most part.

no prostitution isn't violence, MineralMan spelled that out eloquently. I want to take a step back.

There are two ways to argue any issue of substance. The first is philosophically, where one argues from principle over what is 'right' and not. The second is practically, where one argues over what the impact on society, the individual, the economy, future generations, the environment, etc... will be. This thread has lots of examples of each.

Philosophically: yes, I argue that what goes on between two consenting adults is their business and the gov't has no right to get involved. Further, I argue that a woman, if she chooses, should have the right to sell her 'services.'

Practically: Lot's of interesting points.
POINT #1 IMPACT OF LEGALIZATION STATUS ON VIOLENCE
redqueen and others argue that violence would go up as a result of legalized prostitution. they argue that the implied consent of legal prostitution would create greater demand, leading to even more illegal prostitution (everyone seems to agree that ILLEGAL prostitution is tightly correlated to violence). the point was brought up that no data was supplied to back this up and I myself find that lacking. Specifically, if data exists that shows how legalized prostitution is associated with sexual violence and/or underage prostitution I would be interested to see it.

other's argue that legal prostitution leads to a decline in violence, specifically rape. one poster quoted this study:
http://www.independent.org/pdf/working_papers/50_prostitution.pdf
It's short, I'd recommend everyone take a look if interested. I'm not a statistician and I didn't check his source numbers, but the reasoning looks sound. However, what's conspicuously absent from the report is any data that shows an increase or decline of rape within a given area after legalization. I want to see studies that show "for the 10 years before legalization in country ABC, X rapes/year occurred on average. for the 10 years after legalization, Y rapes/year..."

side point: whenever prostitution or porn comes up on DU, someone invariables points out studies that show that a large percentage of women employed in the sex trade were sexually abused. that's fine and I don't doubt it. however, it bothers me seeing this trotted out as supposed evidence that prostitution leads to violence. logically, if you show A implies B, you have NOT shown that B implies A.

POINT #2 IMPACT OF LEGALIZATION STATUS ON SOCIETY NORMS AROUND PROSTITUTION
the logic suggests that if prostitution is legal, society will perceive it as becoming more acceptable.
POINT #2.1 this implies an endorsement of promiscuous sex, leading to a 'moral decline'. more men that are engaged in monogamous relationships might start cheating due this shift in society's norms. I'm not aware of any data that suggests one way or another whether this occurs when prostitution becomes legal. the study would have to be conducted over at least two generations to be meaningful, IMO. without any data, the logic seems reasonable that promiscuous sex will become more common and more socially acceptable if prostitution is legal.
POINT #2.2 this implies more issues with STD's spreading. again, I'm not aware of any data, but the logic seems simple. if prostitution becomes legal, more promiscuous sex will likely occur and more disease will spread. yes, this can be mitigated through condoms and other medical means, but I'm not convinced that large increases in promiscuous sex won't offset those mitigating concerns. data please.
POINT #2.3 if prostitution becomes legal and more widespread, more girls will enter into the profession. 18 year old girls who might otherwise be headed to college may choose to be hookers for a few years b/c it's now socially acceptable. I have a 16 year old daughter and bounced this issue off her: she thinks that a lot of girls would make this choice in lieu of doing the work to earn a college degree, or would put off college until their prime earning years as prostitutes passed (I'll guess that's 18 - 24).
===>This point has all kinds of implications. think about a society where fewer and fewer females pursue advanced eduction or put off starting their careers until later in life.

now, the subpoints of #2 could be mitigated if we could create a prostitution model where it is legal but not endorsed or condoned by society. a model where prostitution doesn't get anyone arrested, but girls are not 'proud' to be hookers and their customer's don't want to be associated with it. think of tobacco here: legal, taxed, regulated but certainly discouraged and carries (increasing) social stigma in most of modern American society. I know there's a million reasons why we have this attitude about tobacco and not suggesting the analogy holds to prostitution; I'm only referencing the attitude around it. In the case of prostitution what I'm suggesting is some way to transition society's attitude from a state where it is outlawed to a state where it is legal without making it more socially acceptable. I'm not sure it's possible but I only took one sociology class in college.

I've given this subject more thought today than ever before in my life (which is kind of the point in participating on DU). I don't think data exists that suggests its worth the risk to society right now to legalize prostitution.

[seabeyond]

247. i supported legalization until i didnt.

i was clueless and totally surprised with what other countries are seeing with legalization.

on edit... sorry. wanted to say, good thoughtful post.

[LadyHawkAZ]

261. Great post

On violence: the best study I've yet seen was the Queensland study:
http://eprints.qut.edu.au/16398/1/Charlotte_Seib_Thesis.pdf
somewhat unique in that it contrasted legal, illegal and different types side by side. Reports of physical assault by a client for brothel workers was 2%, for legal outcall 14% and illegal street workers clocked in at a whopping 50%.

STDs: the transmission rate where condom use is enforced is extremely low. The Nevada brothels are famous for this, and it's also seen in Seib's study. Data is buried deep in Google: I used to have a link for the Nevada rates, but that was many many crashes and 3 computers ago. I can't locate it now. I'll look harder if you're interested. Found this as well:
http://www.bayswan.org/stats.html
"The U.S. Department of Health consistently reports that only 3-5% of the sexually transmitted disease in this country is related to prostitution (compared with 30-35% among teenagers). There is no statistical indication in the U.S. that prostitutes are vectors of HIV. Although a small percentage of prostitutes may be HIV positive, William Darrow, CDC AIDS epidemiology official, cites no proven cases of HIV transmission from prostitutes to clients."

As to risk to society, I'm not sure we can afford NOT to. Under current conditions, the body count keeps mounting and the headlines just keep coming. Men and women who are otherwise good people think this is OK because it makes a moral point. Frankly, if they have to make their point standing on hundreds of corpses, their point isn't very moral and needs to be re-examined.

[maggiesfarmer]

272. thanks for continuing the discussion in a rational manner, very helpful sources...

the points about the violence and STD are interesting. I don't have time to dive in right now, but will tonight. If we have good data that shows legalizing prostitution is indeed a big needle mover in terms of reducing violence, that's probably the strongest argument for it.

even if I accept the points about STDs and violence, I'm still concerned about the widespread and long-term impact on women in society. will legalizing prostitution drive wider gaps between the classes by ensuring a larger percentage of women don't pursue professional careers? is it possible that increasing social acceptability of prostitution would cause more fathers and husband to put pressure on their daughters and wives to work for money? will we create an environment where impoverished women from other countries come to the US just to be sex workers?

[LadyHawkAZ]

406. I haven't seen anything, anywhere suggesting

that it would draw women away from professional careers. I have known women to use it as short-term work to pay for school, but they weren't inclined to make it a permanent calling.

I found this photo particularly touching during the early days of Occupy:


On top of that, if arrested, she would have lost her entire future career and that education would have been worthless on the job market. This should not happen. To anyone.

Re immigrant labor: probable. Both Netherlands and Germany allow immigrant sex workers from EU countries to work there, and workers from other countries have indeed taken advantage of that. I would think that this fact says something very sad about conditions in their home countries. It's a problem that likely won't go away until/unless we have uniform legalization and regulation standards in all countries.

I doubt there will be a huge jump in fathers and husbands pressuring daughters and wives: those inclined to do that, do it anyway, legal or no. There was just an ugly story in the news about that from Afghanistan, as a matter of fact. What legalization does do is remove the threat of being jailed herself if the woman wants to get out and the man gets nasty.

Legal/regulated isn't a perfect system, it certainly has its problems, but then OSHA isn't perfect either and I don't think anyone here would advocate dumping those labor regulations because they aren't 100% effective 100% of the time. The point is to make it as safe as possible for all concerned, and that does happen under regulated conditions.

I return your thanks and appreciate your willingness to listen.

[maggiesfarmer]

415. the photo IS touching, but I can't help but wonder about her posing for a photograph

holding a sign expressing concern about her past as a sex-worker impacting her future employment opportunities. did she really think that one through?

[LadyHawkAZ]

427. There comes a point of frustration where you just don't care anymore.

I agree it might not have been well thought out.

[maggiesfarmer]

417. ok, I finally got around to digging through your sources

thanks again for the studies on reducing instances of rape. Seib's theis is very interesting (I read more of her thesis than any other since grad school). I'm convinced that she makes a compelling case that instances of violence toward sex workers drops when prostitution is legal. What's still missing, are studies that really look at conditions before and after legalization. I still would like to see studies that look at Germany, Australia, the Netherlands, etc... and compare conditions before and after. I'm not convinced that legalization will have this great benefit to society in terms of reducing occurances of rape. The study that correlated price of prostitutes to occurances of rape is SUGGESTIVE that legalization leads to a reduction in rape but falls short of getting connecting the dots, IMO.

the PENET data is really old and only covers the US. While interesting, I don't think it gives much insight into how legalization impacts violence, STD, etc...

your point about female immigrants to countries with legal prostitution is dead on -- it says more about the countries they're leaving then the ones they move to. further, I agree that the best way to impact this is to have uniform prostitution laws across national borders -- but I don't think that's feasible.

again, nice, logical, rational discussion -- dig it!

[LadyHawkAZ]

428. I'd like to see that study done too

because I'm also iffy on the rape connection and want to see some hard facts on causation, not just correlation.

[greiner3]

250. I call BS on the OP;

I lived and worked in Reno for several years. Just outside the border of Washoe County was a legal brother, Mustang Ranch. It was well known-locally and nationally via news reports. Nearly all of the women were housewives living in Reno, although many were pros in the strictest sense.
I owned a franchise fast food restaurant at the time and hired a couple. The woman was just enough showing that she could no longer get enough clients. Yes, she was employed at the ranch and her husband was her 'pimp.'
She loved the sex, money and excitement of the profession. She told of the many, many women who just worked a day or weekend night a week and made thousands of dollars a month. Living in Reno for those years I never once heard of any violence committed there although I am sure some happened as it does in just about any line of work. It was understood that any man who mistreated a worker would not only be banned for life, there and in any legal brothel in NV. The part that was not spoken was that this guy might not live long enough to have to endure that ban if he hurt the woman badly enough.
This tale is the result of legalized prostitution. There were regular health examinations required by the state. While this happened in the early 80s, just about the time AIDS was coming into the news, I am sure not much barebacking was permitted, even then.
I cannot speak well for unregulated and illegal prostitution. There are no rules there and the basest of emotions would rule.
The moral? Legalize prostitution and regulate it so as to protect all concerned. There would be a lot less violence associated with the trade. Money exchanged would be in the open more and taxes would have to be paid. Health regs would ensure the women are healthy and pose little or no risks to the clients. The clients would be required to wear protection. The sex trade would have its major source of income gone. Of course there would always be a market for the illegal type of sex, that not found in the legalized brothels. The women would have to provide proof of age and this would ease much of the public's damnation of the trade.
Of course the religious would always need to have the power over the people by controlling sex. Of course it is the strongest need for ANY animal. We try to delude ourselves we are not included in this but the continuation of the species is the reason why we are still on the planet.
Prostitution is a commodity that fills a great need. We have the opportunity to decriminalize a 'victimless' crime. The OP claims that prostitution alone creates violence and draws sex slaves into the practice. If prostitution were not a crime then her fears would not be realized, for the most part, as described above.

[kiva]

252. Having read a fair amount of research done

on Nevada's legal brothels, I disagree.

The article below is one of the best researched academic articles that I've found that is freely available online; the authors, both with doctorates in sociology, have spent almost a decade studying prostitution in Nevada. Pages 11 through 15 discuss the issue of violence and brothel prostitution.

This isn't a sugar-coated study and does not pretend that violence is non-existent in that world, but makes it clear that legalized prostitution offers several ways to protect sex workers, ways that are not available where prostitution is illegal.

Danger and Violence Our research finds that overall, brothels are safe places for women to sell sex. Our interviewees reported that they work in the brothels because they feel safe there. Of more than 40 prostitutes we interviewed, from large and small, suburban and rural brothels across Nevada, only one reported any personal experience with violence in the brothels. The one person who told us about personal experience with violence said that she felt parties “go bad” less than 5% of the time, although this didn’t necessarily always result in violence.

Within the brothels 21 of 25 prostitute respondents to a survey agreed with the phrase “my job is safe.” None of the owners and managers told us about any incidents involving violence carried out against the women in the brothels. Brothels employ a number of specific practices that work to guarantee the safety and health of brothel workers. Brents and Hausbeck (2005) identify 7 main areas that promote safety in the brothels. These include guidelines for the negotiation process, call buttons and audio room monitoring, control of customer behavior, developing good relations with police, limiting out-of-brothel services, limiting the movement of prostitutes, adhering to health regulations and engaging in preventative practices.

What is Wrong with Prostitution? Assessing Dimensions of Exploitation in Legal Brothels http://citation.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/0/5/4/7/pages105470/p105470-15.php

Other research supports this view.

By forcing prostitution out of places where it would more naturally be found, such as in brothels or near motels, the police drive that activity into the streets of neighborhoods where it otherwise would not exist. As a result, residents of the neighborhoods are exposed to the activity against their will.

Also because of prostitution being forced into the streets, the dangers to many prostitutes greatly increase. Prostitutes whose jobs involve working at night and getting into cars with strangers can be, and often have been, easy pickings for serial killers and other sociopaths. James Alan Fox, a criminal justice professor at Northeastern University, says prostitutes are the most frequent targets for serial killers.

http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/prostitution.htm

Given the questionable nature of some of the research that's been cited in this thread, I'd urge anyone interested in the topic to look at the credentials of those who are writing about the topic.

[justiceischeap]

283. I have no opinion on this that I want to share on DU but...

Do you think that if there were problems with violence in brothels, that the owners would be honest about it? Or even the sex workers? I'm not saying they are being dishonest but there's always room for dishonesty when it comes to controversial subjects such as this.

I skimmed the document linked above but didn't see anything about whether the sex workers were given an anonymous questionnaire of if they were interviewed in person.

[kiva]

315. I think if there were problems they would eventually

become public, mostly because the brothel licensing is pretty strict and the people who oppose prostitution keep a close eye on the situation. Also these brothel are located in pretty small towns and keeping a secret there is hard. The authors do mention that two customers had died at brothels during their study, so there is a certain amount of openness in the process.

I think that most, if not all, of the security measure are to protect the brothel owners' incomes primarily, particularly knowing where the workers are at all time - I suspect that has a lot to do with making sure the women are not doing any business on the side and cutting the owners out of any profit. Of course the towns, generally pretty conservative, do not want the women in town...they are more than happy to take the revenue the brothels provide, they just don't want to have anything to do with the women who provide that income.

As to the methodology, my understanding from listening to the authors is that they generally interview sex workers and other brother employees for their research.

[flvegan]

253. I knew this thread would be gold.

[Warren DeMontague]

265. Always.

DU3? Hell, we'll be at DU50026 and some shit will never change.

[lovemydog]

270. so is football

You can like it or not like it. But you can't make it go away. In my opinion, legislating morality is a waste of time. I favor decriminalizing prostitution and making it safer and healthier for the people who participate. Of course, trafficking is a horrendous crime and should be punished accordingly.

[redqueen]

299. Simply because a profession has some risk of violence,

that does not make it completely analogous to prostitution.

[ohheckyeah]

271. I saw a special about a year ago

concerning two older women in England who set out to find the safest means for prostitutes. They believed that the oldest profession would never be completely eradicated so the question for them was how to make it safer. They traveled the world, checking out brothels and talking to prostitutes including the Bunny Ranch. The two women were quite perceptive, even seeing beneath the surface of the "we're all a happy family" stuff at the Bunny Ranch.

The township or village in England where they lived had a loophole in the law against prostitution - they could provide a "brothel" as long as it was a moving vehicle. So, these women bought a van, set it up with beds, towels, washcloths, bedding, and condoms and they let the local prostitutes use the van. If I remember correctly they had some kind of alarm system that would notify the police if the prostitute push a button.

The women didn't solve the problems of violence in prostitution and they didn't get the law changed, but they did find a unique solution for the local prostitutes.

I think it's obvious that the illegality of prostitution has not eradicated prostitution. I believe it will always be around and I think that should be obvious to everyone. Society would be best served, IMO, if the arguments over things that will never happen were set to the side and the issue of safety were first and foremost the concern when it comes to prostitution. The slave trade should of course be actively and aggressively dealt with by law enforcement and means to make prostitution safer for everyone instituted.

There's only one way to eliminate prostitution and that's to kill off the whole human race.

[redqueen]

300. Where did I say "eliminate prostitution"? The Swedish method of reducing violence against women

involves reducing demand.

It involves pushing a message that women are people, and that people's bodies are not commodities to be bought in order to use for sex.

It's had a measurable positive effect, which is why two other countries adopted the system, and why other governments are considering it as well.

[ohheckyeah]

353. I didn't say you did.

I made some points that I thought were relevant in general to the discussion.

[Mr Dixon]

274. SMH

IMO this is pretty lame, violence happens everywhere not just sex workers, you completely forgot the mass majority of violent crimes have nothing to do with sex workers, your plan changes nothing.

[redqueen]

301. It's not my plan. It's working in Sweden.

And also in the other countries that have implemented this system.

My post wasn't about all forms of violence. I thought that was fairly obvious. I never said or in any way implied that the majority of violence was against prostitutes.

[PVnRT]

279. Amazing how few can discuss this rationally without resorting to ad hominems and strawmen

Oh, wait, it's not amazing. This is DU, after all.

"You hate sex!"
"You support rape!"

Blah blah blah.

[redqueen]

302. I wish it was amazing. It is, instead, sadly typical.

This is DU, yes. However the only place you're likely to get a rational discussion of this subject is in an academic arena or on a feminist board.

Society is still drenched in misogyny. And most people enjoy the fact that women are the sex class.

It gives me hope that a few countries are moving forward, and leading the way (as they do on many issues, it is no coincidence I'm sure).

[Upton]

280. What kind of feminism

advocates telling other women what they can and cannot do with their own bodies? Sex slavery, underage girls, violence against women, all that is illegal and those involved should be busted and punished...but what about adult women, such as those in Nevada, who freely choose to sell their bodies..are you telling me they don't have the right of free choice and you'll make their decisions for them?

[redqueen]

281. It seems that most people are not familiar with the Swedish

method of dealing with prostitution.

I am glad that more governments around the world are taking this issue seriously. I hope someday more members of the public do as well.

[randome]

284. I haven't kept up with this thread.

While I probably agree in general terms that prostitution can be a negative to society, the one thing I notice up front is that you use the words 'illogical' and 'unfounded' in relation to sex.

If sex wasn't crazy or illogical, it wouldn't be sex.

[redqueen]

303. No, not in relation to sex.

Provide the full quote and we can try to see where the miscommunication is coming from.

[randome]

339. Here.

"The idea that for some people, masturbation simply is not good enough, and they absolutely must have access to another person's body, is illogical and unfounded."

You clearly weren't stating that sex itself is 'illogical and unfounded'. I'm simply saying that any discussion regarding sex that uses words like 'illogical and unfounded' is a bit off the mark.

IMO.

[redqueen]

340. So you think the idea that some men absolutely must use another person's body

for sexual release is logical and well-founded?

[randome]

343. Everyone is different.

I'm simply saying that using those very terms -'logical' and 'well-founded'- don't have as much of a place in a discussion about sex as you might think.

Sex is irrational. Sex is crazy-time for the brain. And sexual behaviors derive from previous brain-addled experiences.

I understand what you're saying about the negative effects of prostitution. I'm just saying it's impossible to say how people SHOULD behave when it has to do with their personal experiences. (Other than to keep it with consenting adults, that is.)

[redqueen]

348. The terms are used in the context of describing a very specific idea.

I don't know why the subject of the discussion negates their accuracy.

I suppose your assertion about brain-addled experiences means that for some people, they actually really do *think* they absolutely must have access to someone else's body? Even if that is the case, their perception does not change reality.

Maybe I'm just not getting your point here, sorry.

[Yavin4]

286. Why Would Demand Go Up When It's Legal?

That argument makes no sense. It's similar to saying that there will be more Gays and Lesbians if they can marry. Any man who wants to see a prostitute can easily do so now. Why would making it legal mean an increase in customers?

[seabeyond]

290. sweden not only arrests and fines, but puts picture of jon in paper. demand goes down. there are

not enough women willing to prostitute. when prostitution is normalized, social pressure off, demand goes up. when demand goes up and supply is down, a want has to be met. hence. the countries with legalization get MOST prostitutes, by far, from other countries. most of these people (women, children, boys and girls) are promised something else to get them in a foriegn country or are part of the sex slave trade.

[Yavin4]

307. "...social pressure off, demand goes up" That's The Exact Same Argument Against Allowing Gays...

to marry or adopt children. That's also the argument against making drugs legal.

In summary, you are using the prohibitionist argument, which is that by making something legal you are in a sense condoning or encouraging the public to engage in said activity, and without the "social pressure", all of society will go hog wild.

It's an absurd assumption with no factual evidence to support it. More people are not going to become gay or lesbian simply because gays and lesbians can marry. More people are not going to become addicted to pot simply because it's legal, and more men are not going to patronize prostitutes simply because now it's legal.

Just because something is now legal, that does not mean that there will be a spike in demand. There's no spike in demand for the bunny ranch in Nevada even though it's legal there and promoted on HBO.

You're making an awful lot of assumptions and leaps in logic.

[seabeyond]

313. absurd assumption with no factual evidence to support it.

wrong.

[Yavin4]

323. Your Argument Is Very Similar To the Pope's Argument

against Homosexuality:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101421453

[DemocratSinceBirth]

308. In This Crapo Economy

In this crappy ec onomy I wouldn't be surprised to see more men and women treating their body as an commodity.

[redqueen]

309. And that's probably a wonderful thing, to some people.

I guess we're all just supposed to pretend that objectification, dehumanization and violence are all linked.

[vminfla]

310. Hating on the Job Creators

Let's legalize it and tax it. Let's put America back to work.

[Scout]

316. yes, and you can be the first new prostitute, sucking off stangers for your lunch money, yay! n/t

[vminfla]

333. sorry, I make more money than 93.6% of Americans

But I will gladly keep you in line as a pimp.

[Scout]

409. i don't think you'll need one, have at it n/t

[Suji to Seoul]

314. I have lived in countries where prostitution is legal (South Korea being one of them)

What planet are you on? There are no pimps, it's government regulated and controlled, the girls are tested every 90 days and the government pays for their medical insurance.

Sorry, redqueen. . .this pseudo-feminist logic of Andrea Dworkin failed on my back when I read it as an under-graduate and it still fails me.

Only in countries that outlaw it are there these problems.

[redqueen]

319. That's simply untrue.

Read more about Amsterdam. Read more about Australia.

Yeah, no pimps at all in Australia, except for the ones paying teenaged prostitutes with chicken nuggets. This story stuck in my memory because of it's 'comedic' value. Do a little reading, you will learn a lot.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/pimp-paid-child-prostitute-in-chicken-nuggets-20090330-9gus.html

[Suji to Seoul]

324. Do a little living in other countries as I have for the past six years, you will learn alot too

Because of your snark, you're now on ignore.

I dislike talking to pseudo-feminists. It makes me ill.

[redqueen]

331. LOL...classic... I prove you wrong, I get ignored.

Merrily merrily merrily merrily...

[Suji to Seoul]

407. lol. . .no, again. . .live in other countries and get off your high horse

then we'll talk.

until then, don't talk about other countries' policies about prostitution. I've lived in three countries where prostitution is legal and completely controlled by the government of that country.

[ddeclue]

320. No prostitution is prostition. Violence is violence.

Otherwise there would only be ONE word in the dictionary for it.

[redqueen]

322. It's a metaphor. See post 143. (nt)

[ddeclue]

326. an inaccurate one.

violence
[vahy-uh-luhns]   Origin
vi·o·lence
   [vahy-uh-luhns] Show IPA
noun
1.
swift and intense force: the violence of a storm.
2.
rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment: to die by violence.
3.
an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power, as against rights or laws: to take over a government by violence.
4.
a violent act or proceeding.
5.
rough or immoderate vehemence, as of feeling or language: the violence of his hatred.



prostitution
[pros-ti-too-shuhn, -tyoo-]  
pros·ti·tu·tion
   [pros-ti-too-shuhn, -tyoo-] Show IPA
noun
1.
the act or practice of engaging in sexual intercourse for money.
2.
base or unworthy use, as of talent or ability.
Origin:
1545–55; < Late Latin prōstitūtiōn- (stem of prōstitūtiō ). See prostitute, -ion

Nothing requires that prostitution be violent or coercive. That it sometimes is doesn't mean that it has to be so. Moreover what is the difference between women who marry for money and women who sell sex? Seems like very little to me.

[redqueen]

327. Did you read the post about the human rights expert?

Discussing definitions to analyze metaphors was not the reason I started this thread. If you'd care to address the actual issue that'd be great.

[ddeclue]

328. I just did. Facts are facts. The two words mean different things.

Get over it.

Get over your constant male bashing threads. It is sexist and uncalled for.

[redqueen]

332. Constant male bashing?

What on earth are you talking about?

You might want to think about why you're overreacting so severely to any criticism of the patriarchy or misogyny.

[TheKentuckian]

325. Prostitution is illegal about everywhere in the country, it doesn't seem to be working at all.

Just as importantly, we have no right to be dictating the individuals control of their own bodies or legally enforcing motivations for private behavior.

A woman may have sex with a man because she likes his shoes or his car or economic background or his smell or because she just wants to, the same goes for men and that being the case it seems to me that the individual has the right to decide their own motivations for sex.

Your "revolutionary" solution has been active and failing here for decades and we have literally thousands of years of history with all kinds of evil punishments and a large sample of cultures that have failed to do a damn thing.

There will be those willing to buy it and those willing to sell it, as long as there are those with surplus and those with too little and those with too little have something desirable to those with surplus and so our real priority is to make the exchanges as safe for those involved and society as possible.

If you really want to reduce demand then the fight is between people's ears rather than doubling down on dictating motivation by coersion. You just drive the whole scene deeper underground where the vexxing problems fester.
Harm reduction is at odds with forcing black markets into existence and with making appeal to legal protection and rule law more difficult.

Prohibition strengthens the hands of the criminals and makes law enforcement the enemy.

[redqueen]

336. In Sweden only buying sex is criminalized.

They are reducing demand. This has also happened in the other countries where this has been implemented. That is why other countries are considering adopting this method as well.


IMO, legalizing it is encouraging people to think of women as things, commodities, etc., which IMO is not helpful.

[Yavin4]

342. You Keep Citing Sweden, But Offer No Hard Evidence That It's Working

Also, the Swedish model encourages police entrapment. Are you in favor of the police baiting citizens into comitting crimes?

[redqueen]

344. Like I keep saying, link battles are IMO not productive.

For every study, there is another study done by another group with another agenda.

If people care about this issue, there is a mountain of information out there to consider... everyone is free to decide which set of surveys and studies they prefer to treat as more credible.

[EOTE]

352. Link battles aren't productive IYO, because no objective data illustrates your point.

There's plenty of objective data out there, almost none of it conforms to your view on the subject. It's hilarious you brought up global warming denial in your past posts, because that's exactly like what you're doing. You have zero interest in looking at the facts because the facts don't point to the same conclusion you have.

[EOTE]

351. Not just police entrapment, but entrapment in general.

What's to prevent any sex worker from advertising his/her services, trying to get a "John", and then as soon as the "John" accepts, that sex worker doing a citizen's arrest on the "John"? It's an absolutely ludicrous situation that Sweden has produced.

[Burgman]

347. What about the men who are raped of their money?

[redqueen]

350. "What about the men who are raped of their money? "

You really are a product of your times.

Like an old racist who insists that there's nothing wrong with being racist, because they were 'raised that way', you just do not get it.

I don't suspect you ever will.

[Burgman]

355. Now calling me out as a racist?

Because I don't agree with your extremist life views? Wow.

And "a product of your times?" B*** me, bite me, whatever. You have issues that won't be solved on a message board.

I got to meet MLK and marched in Selma. Your bitching about minor crap like this darkens anything that was ever said about rights or recognition. You're fly scat in the realm of things. Women's Rights are doing very well compared to others right now.

No matter what you personally believe.

[redqueen]

357. No, I didn't call you out as a racist. GMAFB.

I compared the inability of racists who are considered 'just a product of the time' to change with the way you are, sitting here on DU telling women to blow you and bite you.

"B*** me, bite me, whatever. You have issues that won't be solved on a message board."

Classy as always.

[Burgman]

359. Tell me. what is "GMAFB?"

[redqueen]

360. It means

Give Me A Flipping Break

[Burgman]

354. I have known some lovely "prostitutes" in my life.

The last being my ex-wife and mother of my child.

And yes, they can be violent in the cases that their partner might be around the corner with a gun waiting to "catch you with your pants down" to let the pair abscond with all your dollars.

Women often feel privileged to certain mores and conceptions simply because of the location of their genitalia. I call bullshit.

[LadyHawkAZ]

412. Ay Caramba Dude...

Way out of line. Your bad experience is not representative of women any more than my rapist ex-husband is representative of you. Generalizing from one bad personal experience is not a good thing. Ever.

[Charlemagne]

356. Culture of violence against men

Look at this disgusting post on DU: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=147621

It promotes the mutilation of the male anatomy. It indicates that the culture of violence against men is condoned and celebrated

[redqueen]

358. This is a topic for another thread, though.

I agree that men promote the idea of violence as a solution far too often. The documentary "Tough Guise" by Jason Katz attempts to address this issue and I try to mention it, but I get accused of "telling men how to act" so I have quieted down about that.

[tabasco]

369. Ignorance is Strength!

[JackRiddler]

388. Can you provide some harder data on these questions?

There are no doubt many examples of jurisdictions where prostitution was legal and then illegal, and vice-versa, as well as jurisdictions where it has been legal for decades or illegal for decades (so that we can see how it's developed). What does the social science using reliable data and comparing these various types of jurisdictions say about developments for the factors you mention?

- comparative rates of violence against women and violence against prostitutes
- rates of prostitution
- demand for prostitution
- human trafficking
- rates of disease
- conditions for the prostitutes

etc.?

Because these things can be evaluated by empirical study, so while your argument is compelling, it is only so if the factual claims you make about rates of violence and demand and so forth are actually supportable in a comparative study.

[redqueen]

390. There are many studies.

I have avoided providing links to studies because for every study there is another one quoting happy hookers saying everything's peachy... and one law enforcement in one country for example claiming that they simply can't find all that many trafficked people so that means everything's great (despite human rights workers saying the exact opposite).

Look at the data re: areas where prostitution is legal, and decide for yourself. There are conflicting studies, and it really boils down to which ones you think are more reliable.

[tnvoter]

399. so is it a wash, then?

does the fact that there are conflicting data mean that your position is not clearly supported? I think so.

[tnvoter]

398. occupational hazards abound

for many jobs, not just prostitution. Should we outlaw those as well? I don't support violence. I do however support giving consenting adults the freedom to do as they please behind closed doors - including bartering resources (however they are defined). If you believe in a free market, I don't know how you could be against this.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

401. Prostitution has moved to the internet anyway

People picking up streetwalkers is slowly being phased out, especially since those are the easiest for law enforcement to sting and also the most dangerous way for both the client and the provider to be robbed, get a disease, etc. Nowadays, reputable escorts use the internet (not Craig's List either) through their own websites and screen potential clients using various background check services. Sadly for puritans like redqueen who want to tell women they are part of the problem by having the nerve to provide such a service to disgusting, vile men, they are already ten steps ahead of her to both protecting themselves, and shielding their customers from law enforcement.

[arely staircase]

429. What people enjoy is what they enjoy and as long as it's consensual and involves adults, whatever.

Right?