This Is NOT A Christian Country, It Is A Country Which Happens To Have A Lot Of Chrisitians.

[kpete]

I am told that Newt Gingrich is a good and righteous man, standing up for the values of the Catholic Church. Do those "values" include committing adultery and divorcing your sick wives? Bearing false witness, as in Newt's campaign to impeach Bill Clinton for sexual indiscretions while he was married and boinking a staffer? If you're looking for a Defender of the Faith, Newt is not your man. I am sick to death of people claiming this is a "Christian country." No, it is not. It *is* a country which happens to have a lot of Christians, and even though they are in the vast majority, many of them like to get their knickers in a knot over being "persecuted," just because they can't manage to force everyone to live according to their rules (which, Newt being a prime example, THEY can't even follow). Being a dirty fucking hippie commie socialist, I'm not at all against anyone having their religion; I am, however, against anyone's religion being used to dictate public policy. Jesus said, "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret." Jesus also counseled his followers to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for the sick, etc. I guess he was the original dirty hippie.

http://www.eschatonblog.com/2012/01/looted.html#comment-406444606

[RKP5637]

1. K&R !!!

[Autumn]

2. If that fucking newt would act like a christian,

he wouldn't have to remind us constantly that he is a christian.

[justiceischeap]

3. Ezekiel 16:49-50 (The true meaning of Sodomite)

“This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it.”

[Manifestor_of_Light]

4. Make their heads explode.

Tell them about the Treaty of Tripoli.

Ratified unanimously by Congress and signed by President John Adams in 1797.

"As the United States is not in any sense a Christian nation"

[Angry Dragon]

5. Just a thought as I read your post

A treaty is a binding contract
as such the only way to change it
is to sign another treaty between the same parties

So anyone saying the US is a Christian nation is
trying to break a contract and could be fined and/or arrested

[Kurmudgeon]

16. So if John Adam's opinion can define the country, then I guess George W Bush's opinion can too.

You really want to go with that?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

17. Read the Supremacy Clause. In Article VI of the Constitution.

Treaties are part of the "Supreme law of the land".

[white_wolf]

19. That isn't Adam's opinion.

It is a treaty ratified by the United States Senate and signed by the President of the United States. It is the law of the land.

[Bluenorthwest]

31. That's the law, not an opinion

The Constitution and all that.

[Boojatta]

6. I think that the distinction in the title of this thread is important.

It reminds me of another thread. Here's part of it:

I have heard the argument that, during the early stages of the industrial revolution, society was too poor for any alternative, and that children and everybody else had to work very hard for a long time and eventually society became wealthy enough to give us the luxury of outlawing those practices.

However, haven't these people forgotten something?

(snip)

It won't be a wealthy country. It will be a country that contains some wealthy people, and their wealth belongs exclusively to them, you socialist!

Link for those anyone who wants to see more of that thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002131858

Edited to add:
We should distinguish between "Christian nation" in the sense that the values of the nation are consistent with the teachings of Christ, and "Christian nation" in the sense that the nation contains a lot of people who call themselves "Christians" and who idolize the Bible.

I believe that Gandhi said something relevant here: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

[Moostache]

24. Absolutely....and Ghandi was right then and would be so if he could say the same today!

The typical so-called Christian in American fundamentalist circles is an ill-informed, propaganda victim with little to no intellectual curiosity and an over-abundance was "fire-in-the-belly" zeal. They are easily ginned up and have been used by the GOP for nearly 40 years as a means to an end. The Republicans pretend to love Jeebus during the elections, but they NEVER come close to the man's actual teachings or messages - just some idealized blonde-hair, blue-eyed first century Semite who rode on Raptors and Sharks and fired multiple machine guns at the "sinners"...

[patrice]

7. True Story > Careful where you say that; people will freak on you.

Somehow the NT story of living the truth in every second of one's own breath, without seeking power, has been lost on lots of people.

[whathehell]

8. Exactly. n/t

[The Straight Story]

9. We're not an American country either, just have a lot of non-natives living here

[zbdent]

10. Wonder why they love the founding fathers

when they pretty much fought against Christmas ...

The first Christmas Warriors (and not the "pro-" side ...)

[Major Nikon]

26. Because they can't tell the difference between a Christian and a Deist

Many of the founding fathers were Deists. If the half-wit Christians who think this nation was founded on Christianity knew what Deism was, they would be more worried about it than atheism.

[gateley]

11. WE know that, THEY don't. Plus, their take on Christianity is pretty iffy. too. nt

[raouldukelives]

12. Most of em seem to fit the Anti-Christ more than Christ.

You know, saying they love Jesus on Sunday and then spending the work week denying health benefits, flying Predator drones, investing in stocks that lead to the misery of poorest, shooting people in the head with tear gas canisters etc.
Sort of like a Christian used car dealer. Would I lie to you?
I seem to recall that being a Christian and doing Unchristian acts is actually worse than just being an agnostic who commits acts of selfishness & greed.

[spin]

13. I'm not defending Newt but...

I feel that it is important to point out that his conversion to Catholicism is a recent event.

Gingrich's Catholic Journey Began With Third Wife

by Barbara Bradley Hagerty

***snip***

Gingrich began studying the history of the Catholic Church and its influence on Western civilization, especially the church's role in the fall of communism. In 2010, Newt and Callista Gingrich produced a documentary about Pope John Paul II's historic trip to Poland. But for Gingrich, the turning point was Pope Benedict XVI's visit to the U.S. in 2008.

"The joyful and radiating presence of the Holy Father was a moment of confirmation of the many things I had been thinking and experiencing over the last several years," Gingrich said at a Catholic prayer breakfast this year.

That evening, Gingrich told Monsignor Walter Rossi, the rector at the basillica, that he wanted to be received into the church. He was confirmed on March 29, 2009. He says that conversion made him a different man.

***snip***

"People have to render judgment," he said in a recent debate in Iowa. "In my case, I've said upfront openly, I've made mistakes at times. I've had to go to God for forgiveness. I've had to seek reconciliation. But I'm also a 68-year-old grandfather, and I think people have to measure who I am now and whether I'm a person they can trust."
http://www.npr.org/2011/12/22/144080998/gingrichs-catholic-journey-began-with-third-wife

I also believe that your statement that Jesus was the original dirty hippie is far closer to the truth than the view most Christians have of him.

[immoderate]

15. Follow the money!

--imm

[Bluenorthwest]

32. Newt switched religions and is now Catholic. He was Protestant.

The Jesus teachings include strong words against Newt. Says men who trade in a wife and remarry are whore mongers. It is not Catholicism that teaches adultery and serial marriage are deeply wrong, it is the entire Christian Scripture, and Newt always claimed he was a Christian. Always. When all along, he was a pimp, according to the Christ.

[spin]

35. As I said, I'm not defending Newt...

Nor will I judge him as that is above my pay grade. That does not mean that I will excuse or ignore his past behavior.

American politicians are notorious for claiming to be religious. Off hand, I can't think of any current politicians who admit they are atheist or agnostic. Interestingly enough many of the Founding Fathers were actually Deists.

One politician who has admitted that he is an atheist is Jesse Ventura, but he appears to have dropped out of the game for good.

It could also be pointed out the the problem with Christianity is Christians.

[yellowcanine]

14. And a few Christians in addition to the Chrisitians.

Actually I would use "professing" Christians to account for the fact that many "Christians" don't seem to be following Christ, which is kind of the point of the whole religion.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

18. You're ignoring large parts of the NT.

Condemning people to Hell that don't like his preaching.
Cussing out a fig tree that did not fruit out of season.
Saying "I come not in peace, but with a sword" and continuing that his purpose is to drive families apart?
Affirming that the brutal laws in the OT are fine with him.

What about those parts where Jesus is hateful??? Everyone ignores those.

[yellowcanine]

20. Some of what has been attributed to Jesus is a mistranslation or misquoting I believe.

The totality of the message is the Golden Rule and inclusion of the oppressed. For example, the parable of the talents is usually presented into a celebration of capitalism, but it can also be read as a condemnation of greedy capitalists imo. Small changes in emphasis here and there would make all the difference. A clever editor with an agenda could have easily changed the meaning.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

21. There are TONS of stuff in the NT that are the hateful alleged words of Jesus.

Furthermore, there is no evidence that Jesus actually existed. None of the gospels were written until 50-100 years after he died.

So I don't take any of it seriously. I see no reason why a particular nomadic, illiterate Bronze Age society that knew nothing of science or reason should be held up as a particularly good society to model our behavior after.

They thought that demons caused mental illness; that the earth was flat; that women and slaves were inferior beings.

I think 21st Century America is better than that.

[Major Nikon]

27. The gospels of the NT weren't even written by those with whom they are attributed

At the very best you have a 3rd person account of what Jesus said. More likely it's much farther removed than even 3rd person, which has been further watered down by transcription and translation. The really sad part is that even if the NT really was the inspired word of Jesus, you still have people using a 2,000 yr old tome written by goat herders as their sole moral compass.

[REP]

22. The New Testament was written at different times by different people with differing agendas

Your distaste for Christianity is noted. Any moderately-bright middle-school student can point out the contradictions in both the Old and New Testaments; you're not bringing anything new to the table here. That's not the point of this thread.

[yellowcanine]

28. Well said. Literalist skeptics are almost as as wrong as literalist believers imo. Both NT and OT

are meant to be read allegorically so one should expect a lot of contradictions and things which don't square with modern science or written history. But one has to look for the underlying truths. And the passages have to be interpreted within the context of when they were written as well. Yes women had the status of property and that is why the way Jesus appears to value the intellectual contributions of women in several places and comes to their defense on the divorce issue is fairly radical for the times. I don't know how historical a figure Jesus really was - I tend to think he could be a composite of several individuals - but in many ways it does not matter. It is the message which matters.

[Charlemagne]

23. Make it a catholic country

and all the fundies will be forced to pray the rosary and say the Hail Mary.

Be careful what you wish for.... or...you cant have your cake and eat it too. Whichever saying works

[yellowcanine]

29. It is interesting that Newt Gingrich, with S. Baptist background and 2 ex wives, is now Catholic

Not sure how that works in terms of his present marriage - I know his second marriage was annulled based on the fact that his second wife had been previously married (Oh the irony!) but what about his first marriage?

One would think that Newt would be too embarrassed to even bring up the subject of the sanctity of marriage but apparently not. Here is Newt on the topic.....


Judge Walker's ruling overturning Prop 8 is an outrageous disrespect for our Constitution and for the majority of people of the United States who believe marriage is the union of husband and wife. In every state of the union from California to Maine to Georgia, where the people have had a chance to vote they've affirmed that marriage is the union of one man and one woman.

Someone needs to ask Newt if Judge Walker disrespected one man/one woman marriage as much than Newt did with his serial marriages and adulteries? It is a fair question.

[Bluenorthwest]

33. Hypocrisy, like Marriage, is a Sacrament.

Or so it would seem.

[yellowcanine]

34. And the annulment racket in the Catholic Church is an absolute scandal, imo.

I can see allowing an annulment after a few months in some situations where there are no children involved - but granting an annulment to someone who was married for years and has a couple of children is just a travesty, imo. And I may be wrong, but it seems as if it is mostly the well connected and wealthy who seem to be able to get annulments.

[Populist_Prole]

25. K&R. Right on!

[Shadowflash]

30. Kicked for truth!