Sincere question: Can Trump really pardon himself ?

[steve2470]

I mean, I thought a pardon had to be extended to another person. Not to oneself.

I can easily see Trump resigning at the last minute, and Pence pardoning him.

What do we know about this ? Thanks in advance.

[sboatcar]

1. That's how Nixon played it (resign, incoming prez pardons him)

It would probably be a wise move on the part of Trump, but it doesn't protect him from any state charges or lawsuits.

[JenniferJuniper]

3. The incoming president isn't going to pardon him.

He either resigns before 1/20 as a part of a deal with Pence, or he trieds to pardon himself, which has never been done before.

[sboatcar]

5. I wouldn't put it past Trump to try to pardon himself

But I would think that the courts would probably decide that that would mean that the president is above the law, and they probably wouldn't allow it.

By incoming president, I meant Pence, who'd take over til Inauguration day.

[lagomorph777]

25. I think the deal would go: Trump pardons Pence and quits, then Pence pardons Trump and takes over.

But there's a lot of trust involved in both directions in a deal like that.

Plus, Trump would have a narcissistic hard time with resigning.

Hard to see it working out.

[sboatcar]

40. I believe the correct term for that is

a circle jerk.

[lagomorph777]

43. I KNEW you were gonna say that, from your subject line!

You are correct!

[Jersey Devil]

2. Why not?

Trump pardons himself. It goes to the Supreme Court to determine if he can do that under the Constitution where 6 friendly justices await him. What do you think would happen?

[steve2470]

6. hm I don't know

From what I know, Gorsuch and Kavanagh have not toed the line 100%. No clue on what Barrett will do.

To your point, yes, if all 6 voted to approve of a self-pardon, it would not shock me.

[Jersey Devil]

10. I wasn't very clear

I agree that maybe the Court would rule against a self pardon, but my point was that Trump would probably conclude it was worth the effort since, according to his thinking, 3 of the judges "owe" him in his transactional world. So I think he definitely will try it

[Harker]

23. So much for "originalism" and "strict interpretation.". n/t

[SayItLoud]

4. He's an international criminal...will a pardon protect him from those charges?

Turkey
Scotland
Panama
Cyprus
Canada

Pickem....

[Harker]

29. Any would do, but I'll be rooting for Scotland

to take down the "polyester cockwomble."

[highplainsdem]

7. New Vanity Fair article on this:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/11/donald-trump-self-pardon



Trump's been talking about the possibility of pardoning himself since 2017.


Note the scenario, too, where Trump pretends to be so ill Pence becomes president temporarily (NOT at the very end of Trump's term, following his resignation), and pardons Trump during that time before he "recovers."

This would spare Trump having to worry if Pence might NOT pardon him if he resigned. I don't think he'd trust Pence that much.

[steve2470]

9. thanks for the article and your info ! nt

[MineralMan]

8. It is an unanswered question, because it has never happened in the past.

Personally, i don't believe he can do it and have it stand. The principle that one cannot judge him or her self is a staple of the concept of justice. So, a person should not be able to pardon him or her self.

A self-pardon by a President would be a very risky move, actually. It would be far safer for Trump to resign and be pardoned by Pence. That could not be questioned, while a self-pardon would be sure to be questioned and probably found to be illegal.

So, I expect a resignation from Trump, after he has pardoned his family member and others in his administration. Trump will be pardoned by Mike Pence, because that will have been arranged in advance, with the actual pardon reviewed in advance as well.

If Trump tries to pardon himself, he has a fool as an attorney.

[lagomorph777]

28. Pence is involved in the crimes up to his empty eye sockets. He'll demand a pardon-for-pardon deal.

[MineralMan]

34. Yes. Well, the entire administration is corrupt and involved

in a wide range of illegal actions and shenanigans of one type or another. I'm hopeful that investigations will take place and what is discovered will be made public. We need to know the truth, whether we can prosecute the perpetrators or not.

[lagomorph777]

35. +1000 there!

Investigate every last crime. Prosecute those we can. Persecute the rest. Let their crimes follow them everywhere.

[rso]

11. Pardon

In any event, he would still be liable to State charges, and both the Manhattan DA and the NY AG are waiting for him.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

12. From my attorney wife (who was #1 in her con law class):

There is nothing in the Constitution nor in existing case law that prevents it. So if he does, it would have to be litigated to make it invalid.

[rso]

17. Pardon

Which is why by far the safest bet for Donnie would be for Pence to pardon him, as this would preclude any litigation. Of course, he would still be totally liable to State charges.

[liberalmuse]

19. And right now, the USSC would likely allow it.

I think the concept is ridiculous and authoritarian and has no place in a Democratic Republic. We need to have another Constitutional Congress with historians, experts in Constitutional law and philosophers to redefine the boundaries Trump has destroyed or else we are going to face a much worse crisis in the near future.

[davsand]

13. I believe the power to pardon is completely in the hands of the President.

At least that's what my take away of high school and college level history/civics has always been. HOWEVER, a pardon accepted is admitting guilt for the pardoned crimes. Other then the terrible PR of a self pardon, I honestly don't know that Pendejo45 is willing to admit to himself that he did anything wrong--let alone to the entire world.

As an added twist to the whole pardon thing, he can't pardon state level crimes. His biggest potential danger, at this point, seems to be a state level rather than at a federal one.

I'm interested to see what the opinion is here from other more educated folks!


Laura

[bluestarone]

14. I've heard BOTH WAYS! (NO one can answer this but RUMP and the SC. i guess)

THIS probably should be decided one way or another! BUT i'm thinking RUMP would get away with it with THIS SC. If they decide for RUMP then, then i would think that, in itself should answer the question NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW? In my mind self pardon WOULD put this ASSHOLE above the law!!

[SomedayKindaLove]

15. I say he will be double-pardoned

By himself and then by Pence when he steps down. Fool proof!

[highplainsdem]

22. See reply 7 above. Plan would be for Trump to fake illness, Pence to become POTUS temporarily

and pardon Trump then, followed by Trump's quick recovery.

That spares the very paranoid Trump from having to trust Pence to pardon him if Trump resigns.

Trump may still pardon himself, as well as pardoning everyone around him. But I really don't think he'd trust Pence enough that he'd resign if he thought a fake illness would work instead.

[Buckeyeblue]

16. The constitution doesn't say he can't.

[Fiendish Thingy]

20. But the constitution does say Prez must insure laws are faithfully executed.

A self-pardon would be a conflict with that.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

26. Why? What law would he be breaking by pardoning himself?

[pwb]

36. Moral law?

.

[Buckeyeblue]

37. The argument would be that he potentially broke the law for the good of the country

I think it would be difficult to prosecute a president for anything he/she did while in office.

The question is what would a self pardon look like for crimes committed prior to being president? The constitution indicates that the president has the full discretion to pardon. No one else does. So because of that, the president must be able to self pardon if he/she has the discretion to pardon. I know that argument is kind of circular but I don't see how any other argument could be made.

[Fiendish Thingy]

38. It's never been tested in court, although there is a 1974 DOJ memo that says he can't. Nt

[ooky]

18. Due to the legal uncertainty of self pardon I believe he will resign so Pence

can pardon him. That will be after he has pardoned his own family and cronies.

[Thekaspervote]

21. Neil Katyal President Obama's solicitor general in an interview with Katie Couric says no

[Bettie]

24. Who effing knows anymore?

No one has stopped him from doing anything else, so maybe?

[IsItJustMe]

39. How true.

I can understand, while whole heartedly disagreeing with it, why the Republicans would put up with his illegalities. But to some extent, in my mind, so have the Dems and the MSM. I think this was done mostly out of fear.

The example that sticks out in my mind was when, during the impeachment, the House allowed him to keep any of his people from testifying. That should have went to court, win or loose. Now we have the dangerous precedence that the Executive Branch can refuse to testify in front of the House.

I have been dumb founded at the lack of criticism toward him, from all corners.

[Happy Hoosier]

27. Maybe.

The Constitution does not place limits on the power. But it would seem to fly in the face of the principal that no one is above the law. If Trump can pardon himself, he is literally above Federal law.

[beachbumbob]

30. This will be a Supreme Court case. Trump will try to pardon

himself and will definitely extend pardons to his family circle for sure.

[soothsayer]

31. Department of Justice issued a memorandum opinion on August 5, 1974, stating that a president cannot

Self-pardons
During the Watergate scandal, President Nixon's lawyer suggested that a self-pardon would be legal, while the Department of Justice issued a memorandum opinion on August 5, 1974, stating that a president cannot pardon himself.

[Jirel]

33. Opinion, though.

Not tested in court. Extraordinarily unlikely to work, but not totally out of the realm of possibility with a whacked-out court of sycophants.

[Jirel]

32. No, but it's untested.

He’d have to issue himself some form of blanket pardon in advance, since he’ll be out of office before charges are filed. So no - there is no “pardon” when a person has not been charged, and there’s no telling what the charges may be at some unknown date and by some unknown federal prosecutor in the future. He can try, but it is 99.9% unlikely to succeed. The only possibility of success is that this approach hasn’t been tried before, so there is no legal precedent. This would be the test case. Very few, if any, judges would let that happen. Not if they were both honest and know anything about the law.

[fishwax]

41. at most, he could pardon himself for federal crimes

that won't get him off the hook for state charges, though.

[jcgoldie]

42. Doesn't seem anyone has tried it

Not a legal expert but given the current scotus my uneducated guess is odds in his favor.

NY state will still get him...