Let's see if I got this straight????

[IowaGuy]

Last edited Mon Dec 14, 2020, 12:12 PM - Edit history (1)

Al Franken jokes around in a bawdy way before he is a senator and his job is comedian on a USO tour, known for that kind of stuff and he gets shit canned as a Senator years later for that horrendous transgression......Lindsey Graham, a sitting US senator illegally conspires to defraud voters out of their vote from a state that isn't even his own.....and crickets?

[econron]

1. We Need to Stop Thinking The R's will Convert

They aren't going to do the right thing as they have sold out ....

Graham must really be compromised on something as his behavior has been more than suspect the past few years...

What does he gain by calling the Georgia SOS and others? It's not for his direct benefit... or is it?

[rwsanders]

6. Was he also on the Appalachian Trails somewhere with Mark Sanford?

[roscoeroscoe]

2. Depends on where you get your news from!

I mean, this is known.

[madaboutharry]

3. Yep, you have that right.

[OLDMDDEM]

4. I hope

that Al Frnaken makes it back into the political world. He would be a level headed, great president.

[Miigwech]

5. Give him a pass because ... don't touch this ...

[Joinfortmill]

7. Al Franken should not have resigned.

We could use him now.

[DFW]

50. He knows that now

When the same scam was tried on Ralph Northam and then Joe Biden, he realized that he had been the victim of a scam. He still can't forget that so many of his fellow senators fell for it, and piled on him to resign without even having solid evidence of the allegations. Of the 33 Senators who ganged up on him, eight have apologized privately, one publicly (Jon Tester of Montana). He didn't realize that he was the guinea pig of a Roger Stone scam, which was only repeated after its surprise success with Al. I'll bet that even today there are STILL more Democrats willing to trash Al than there are Republicans willing to trash Scott DesJarlais (R-TN).

For the record, Al was a comedian, not a comedienne. Franni would have known if he had undergone a sex-change operation.

[sarcasmo]

8. The GOP plays by a different set of rules.

[rickyhall]

26. Yeah, no rules.

[KPN]

9. You got it straight. Good folks, nice folks

come in last.

[Warpy]

10. You've got that about right. IOKIYAR, all the way up to treason

and this is only fraud, interstate racketeering, and worse than anything that caused the reasonable Republicans of a former age to withdraw their support from Nixon, so no big deal for them.

[themaguffin]

11. Graham is a terrible perso. Also, given his hypocrisy, noting that he is called Lady G is justified.

Even if push polls want to erase that fact.

[Bettie]

12. Yeah, that about covers it

Leningrad Lindsay can do whatever he wants to because when he's on TV there's an "R" after his name. Thus, it doesn't matter what he does, he's perfect or they can "both sides" it till the cows come home.

Were he a Democrat he'd already be out of the senate, due to his own party demanding it and probably indicted already.

[58Sunliner]

13. Yes, but those crickets are quite vocal. They are very busy behind the scenes.

Covering up.

[11 Bravo]

14. Al got swept up in the backlash of a well-intentioned and necessary movement.

But I remain disappointed regarding his complete abandonment by a narrow-minded group whose aims he shared, yet still felt required to cut him loose.

Have a nice day, Claire.

[Brother Mythos]

15. Yes, you've, pretty much, summed it up. Unfortunately, ...

this is today's 'merica.

[Moostache]

16. IOIYAAR, period.

its OK If You Are A Republican...a well-worn dogma in the age of the shameless Turtle and the Orange ass Monkey.

As Democrats, we own a large part of this failing too...while they simply refuse to acknowledge ANY wrongdoing and deny or ignore everything (including Congressional summons to testify, subpoenas and more); while we clutch the pearls and gasp and run good people out of Washington and state level roles for out of context or minor offenses in decorum or manners.

Republicans have no shame, none; and we have tended the opposite reaction, catching the vapors and needing a fainting couch at the drop of a hat...

[LymphocyteLover]

30. exactly what I was going to post-- IOKIYAR

also we really need to play hardball and stop making nice with GOP traitors and criminals

[not_the_one]

31. You can't expect that from the democratic establishment. By definition we take the high road.

Fuck EVER getting anything done. Still, we can smirk smugly in the fact that we made nice with the bad old meanies.

[LymphocyteLover]

33. So, we're fucked then?

We're just going to let the bullies win forever?

[Ford_Prefect]

17. What Putin wants he gets, no? Or would that be Roger Stone?

Or Rupert Murdoch? So many players, so little time.

[NurseJackie]

18. You do make some excellent points. Lindsay Graham seems to be living a charmed life...

... doesn't he? So many are looking after him and protecting him... it's almost as though he thinks he can get away with just about anything.

Lordy!

[Mindspin]

19. We need term limits in congress.

[usaf-vet]

37. Absolutely !!! When ever I have brought that up the reply I get is we will lose GOOD ones....

..... you mean like Al Franken?

That might be true, but when people hold a seat for 2,3 decades, they are rarely in touch with the constituents who elected them.

My aging memory is failing me at this point (names). But the circumstances still seem clear. The initial attack on Al Franken came from a woman who was considering a presidential run and saw Franken as a likely primary opponent, so she tarnished him preemptively. Am I right?

[rsdsharp]

20. Comedian.

Comedienne is a female comic.

[IowaGuy]

38. Correct...my bad

[aidbo]

21. Franken wasn't shitcanned he resigned.

[11 Bravo]

22. Yeah, you go with that.

[True Dough]

23. The guy who is PRESIDENT is actually WORSE!!!

At least he's gonna get his keister kicked out the door. But the horrible things Trump has done are waaaaay beyond anything Franken ever did.

[BobTheSubgenius]

24. Unbelievable, but true.

I'm afraid you have it perfectly straight.

[BainsBane]

25. Franken groped constituents

while he was Senator. https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/20/politics/al-franken-inappropriate-touch-2010/index.html
https://time.com/5042931/al-franken-accusers/

I know that doesn't matter since they were only women, but it was why he resigned.

And in the misogynist discourse, it was all a woman's fault--Gillibrand--despite the fact that the sacred men of the party, Sanders for one, called for Franken's resignation as well. No one considered not supporting Bernie over that, but it is a constant refrain for tanking Gillibrand's electoral prospects. The reason why is obvious.

Unlike the GOP and much of the electorate, Democratic lawmakers have principles. They didn't believe it right to condemn sexual assault by GOP legislators while covering up for a colleague. Again, I realize that is heresy in that it actually suggested women have a right to decide who touches them, but there it is.

I understand full well my view is in the minority. I'm supposed to agree that a woman has no right to decide if someone grabs her ass or breasts because it's Al Franken, and he is more important than the bodies of mere women. Or I'm supposed to pretend that 8 women didn't actually accuse him of similar behavior. I won't comply with the gaslighting over the events surrounding his resignation. And I don't expect anyone here to give a fuck about anything but what is seen as a man's birthright to power in all of its forms.

It is this very issue that prompted me to leave DU for years. I couldn't bear the hypocrisy and what I saw as a lack of principle. But then, I was wrong to assume that there was a principle about women's rights; that was far too optimistic of me to assume. The principle is tribalism and men's power, and in that case the principle is adhered to faithfully.

Lindsay Graham is a pig and a traitor. To even suggest that the Democrats should behave as the GOP does it repulsive. I for one am grateful that my party has lawmakers who care about matters besides tribalism, power, and self.

[NewJeffCT]

27. If it was just the woman from the USO tour

who was a professional comedian, I would have said that his apology was enough since she had accepted the apology. But, after several more women came forward - including Democratic women - then it changed it from an one time thing on a comedy tour for the troops vs a pattern of groping.

[BainsBane]

28. exactly nt

[standingtall]

43. What are the names of these Democratic women that came forward?

You don't know except for maybe one whose complaint was Franken squeezed her waist during a photo. The rest are all anonymous. I hardly call that coming forward. Notice how all the allegations stopped coming in the moment Franken resigned.

[uponit7771]

46. +1, I don't remember any of them being Democratic and do remember that this could have been a

... O'Keefe type situation

[IowaGuy]

39. Al Franken grabbed a woman's breasts? That's not what's on the video....

To exaggerate or lie in service of a higher ideal does us no service IMHO

[BainsBane]

41. read the articles

I'm not lying. To pretend this was all about a video willfully ignore the facts. I provided links in my post.

[standingtall]

42. We have read all these articles before

The only women whoever came forward with allegations were republicans except for one who's complaint was Franken put his hand around her waist during a photo. The other two republican women who made these allegations were right after Tweeden one claimed Franklin grab her butt during a photo and the other claimed Franken grabbed her breast also during a photo. Here is the problem with those stories. Both of these events were in front of crowds of people and no one ever came forward as a witness to verify what they claimed not the photographer and no one in the crowd no one. The rest were all anonymous and some of those read like a Trump access Hollywood parody.

Your links are from old articles that we went over in depth on this board back when this stuff happened. If it was not convincing then then it's not going to be convincing now unless there is something new.

[BainsBane]

44. Obviously you did not read them

8 women. 8 women. At least five were Democrats: 1) a constituent having her picture taken with her Senator at the state fair, 2) another at a Democratic fundraiser, 3) one at a women's caucus, 4) a former staffer; 5) One at a Media Matters event during Obama's inauguration. A 6th was during an Air America taping, which is hardly teeming with Republicans. You claim they are all Republican. That is demonstrably false. Most were Democrats. All of this is covered in the Time article you claimed to have read.

The one who complained about her breasts being grabbed said they were alone, yet another point on which you are wrong.

The articles are old because that is when the events occurred. If you ever read the articles, you promptly forgot them. The other comments in this thread demonstrate the same willful lack of familiarity.

This is indeed an old issue, one that people here continually drag up. New evidence is not necessary when people haven't begun to acknowledge the allegations that were made at the time, as your post demonstrates. Especially when this entire argument excusing Franken hinges on dismissal of the DEMOCRATIC women who accused him of strikingly similar behavior.

[uponit7771]

47. They were mostly anonymous that is the biggest problem here looking at

... how O'Keefe and crew have overtly been rat f****** on this issue from the beginning anonymous should not cut it any longer.

[BainsBane]

51. 2 were anonymous

2 out of 8. Again, it's in the Time article.

[standingtall]

54. Wrong you misread the context of the article you posted there are indeed 4 annoymous accusers

not just 2. I went back to read it again to make sure. Here is another article to clear it up.


https://abcnews.go.com/US/sen-al-frankens-accusers-accusations-made/story?id=51406862


There are only 4 names given not 6. I don't just believe something just, because says somebody says it no matter how strongly that person feels about it. Claims and evidence needs to be evaluated.


The article you linked says this


"An unnamed elected official in New England

The allegations: The woman told Jezebel that Franken attempted to give her a “wet, open-mouthed kiss” in 2006 at a live taping of Franken’s show at the time, Air America. “I was stunned and incredulous. I felt demeaned. I felt put in my place,” she told Jezebel about the alleged incident.

Franken’s response: Franken has not yet commented on the woman’s claims." Sorry that is anonymous saying that someone is an unnamed elected official does not remove the cloak of anonymity.


"A former Democratic congressional aide

The allegations: The unnamed woman told Politico that Franken tried to forcibly kiss her after the taping of his radio show in 2006 when she was in her mid-20s. She said that the alleged incident occurred once her boss had left the room. When she tried to leave the room, Franken allegedly told her: “It’s my right as an entertainer.’”

Franken’s response: Franken told Politico in a statement: “This allegation is categorically not true and the idea that I would claim this as my right as an entertainer is preposterous. I look forward to fully cooperating with the ongoing ethics committee investigation.” Again saying someone is a former Democratic congressional aide also does not remove the cloak of anonymity.

Just because the Time article did not use the word anonymous for those two examples does not negate the fact that they are anonymous.

[BainsBane]

55. fair enough

The Time article identified them by occupation and listed two as anonymous. The universe of former staffers is relatively small. I imagine Franken and those on the Hill know who she was. The same with the Democratic elected official. Those are the two that the Time article didn't specifically list as anonymous.

Both articles agree there were EIGHT accusers, not five.

The article you linked to doesn't say that most were Republicans. In fact the word Republican appears nowhere in the article. The ABC article, like the Time article, identifies the events at which the women allege the events occurred--a Democratic fundraiser and a Minnesota Women's Political Caucus event. It identifies one as a Democratic elected official and another as a Democratic staffer. ABC also identifies Tina Dupuy as a Democrat. So the point that you insist on, that most were Republican, is directly refuted by your own source.

[standingtall]

56. Actually does not directly refute my claim that most were republicans

The article is silent on the matter. At least 2 of 4 that we actually have names for are either confirmed registered republicans and or Trump supporters by this article. And Leann Tweeden is a right wing talk radio host so we don't really need an article to confirm she is a republican. So 3 of the 4 women who we actually know who they are are republicans. This article also adds a 9th unnamed source. The Time article says an unnamed elected official in New England official. Does say rather the woman was a Democrat or a republican. Lets just give it the benefit of the doubt and say the woman was a Democrat it's still anonymous and therefore should not count.



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/fb-7521689/EIGHT-ISNT-AL-FRANKENS-FEMALE-ACCUSERS.html

[BainsBane]

57. It names them as Democrats

The ABC article you linked to names the women as Democrats. Democratic staffers are not Republicans. Democratic elected officials are not Republicans. Someone who attends a Democratic fundraiser is not a Republican. Women identified in the article as Democrats are not Republicans. In fact, the only one we know is a Republican is Tweeden. Your claim that the article is silent on political affiliation is false. You could easily do a search of the article using the world Democrat and see as much.

That said, Republican women have a right to say who touches their bodies as well. I only raised the party issue because your comments were so demonstrably false, and because you used it as an excuse for dismissing those women. I don't believe that Republicans should be subject to assault or harassment anymore than Democrats should. Touching someone without their permission is wrong, regardless of the person being touched or the person doing the touching. The principle--and in some cases the law--applies regardless of party or gender.

I don't intend to read your tabloid article. I don't read tabloids as news. You linked to the ABC article, and now you try to refute it with a tabloid. I used to live in the UK. There, everyone knows the Daily Mail is tabloid trash, yet for some reasons Americans think it okay to link to it as a legitimate source. It is not.

The singular point of this discussion seems to be for you to justify your contempt for the women who accused Franken. You don't need my help to do that. And you are not going to get me to say that Democratic men have the right to touch whomever they want, regardless of consequences, or that Franken must be innocent because you have decided you don't like the women who accused him. Franken resigned for a reason. That was his decision, and he wouldn't have done so if there had been no truth to the allegations.

As another poster said, if Tweeden had been the only one who came forward, we wouldn't be having this discussion, and Franken would still be in office. It was when seven other women made their allegations that it became a problem for him.

And BTW, Franken was my Senator, not yours. I volunteered for his Senatorial campaign, and he was my favorite Senator until this happened. But I must say what bothers me as much if not more than Franken's actions is the excuses made for him. It became clear to me that the only reason people claimed outrage at the Republican men accused of assault or harassment was because it was politically expedient.

I am a Democrat in a party of which women are the great majority. My rights matter; the rights of Franken's accusers matter. The rights of victims of harassment and sexual assault matter. I am grateful that the elected officials in my Democratic party have integrity--as much as some voters may despise them for that integrity. I am glad that they hold themselves to the same standard that they do Republicans. It is that which makes them worth voting for.

I won't be responding to any of your posts in the future, so save your ink. If you want to write a performative post, so be it; but don't expect me to read it.

[standingtall]

49. I read it two years ago when this board was spammed with this article

I'm not going to read it again, because there is nothing new here. Of the 4 allegations we actually have names for 3 were republicans and the one who was a Democrat is suspect because her claim was Franken grab her waist. The 4 anonymous ones were all allegedly Democrats. Saying someone was a staffer does not remove the cloak of anonymity.

Then there was the back drop of when this happened right when republicans were trying to get a credibly accused pedophile elected in Alabama so they could engage in their what aboutism. After Franken resigned there were no more allegations against him.

Then after that the situation in Virginia broke out where Northham had his own controversy which happened decades ago where republicans demanded he resign and at the same time they demanded Justin Fairfax resign over a rape allegation which would've left republicans in control of the government in Virginia. That seems to be the very moment Democrats wisely putting a stop to demanding other Democrats resign simply, because allegations are made without an investigation.

Seems awful peculiar that of all the allegations made over the last 4 years or so. Donald Trump,Brett Kavanaugh,Roy Moore, Justin Fairfax and Joe Biden. Yet only Al Franken seems to have a series of anonymous people making allegations against him.

[BainsBane]

52. Since you're not going to read it

You continue to repeat false claims. This despite the fact after being wrong now as least four times on basic points of fact. Two out of 8 of the accusers were anonymous. And there were EIGHT accusers, not five. Those are basic points that you continually misrepresent.

Trump and Kavanaugh also had anonymous women making allegations, as did Harvey Weinstein. Anonymous allegations are extremely common because women know they will be trashed and vilified.

[Pacifist Patriot]

29. Yep, you got that straight.

Fucking nuts!

[cwydro]

32. Comedian. "Comedienne" is a word that was used for female comedians in the past.

Essentially an archaic word at this point.

But yeah, I get your point. I hope Al makes it back. We need him.

[Hekate]

34. IOKYAR. Classic case, especially the part where Dems slay their own in a frenzy of purity...

I do hate that part of my lifelong party.

[demigoddess]

35. comedienne is for female, comedien is male

learn to speak french.

[apnu]

36. Yeah. Any noise "we" make is generally ignored. Any noise cons make, that's what matters.

All that Franken stuff was a GOP hit job that the media gleefully went along with. Graham committing real, felony-level, election fraud? The media is dead silent.

"Why?" is a great question ask and I know the answer.

Who owns the media controls what the media says.

All media outfits have the same structure. There are owners who control the managers. "Managers" are called "editors" (in print media) or "producers" (in TV/Cable media). Editors and Producers have final say on what is said by the outlet. So the reporter or talking head you actually see is restricted by what their boss lets them do or say.

Its a food chain thing: Owners feed editors/producers, editors/producers feed reporters/talent. Ownership will chop the head off editors/producers. It is the editor/producer's job to chop the head off reporters/talent. Its a fear structure.

Now look to ownership of media. Most of the "owners" of media (by way of majority share holder status, or as some important C-level on a board) are conservative. And this is why our media leans conservative.

Also, if one knows a little bit about American journalism history, it is known there has never been a time in America where our media wasn't slanted in one political direction or another.

Journalistic heroes like Murrow are remarkable because they knew their pay came from conservative corporate vampires, but they punched back at it all the same. Woodward and Bernstein would never have been given the cover to investigate Nixon if Katharine Graham, then owner of the WaPo, wasn't around. She's only recently been discovered as a hero in that saga. It was her resistance to social and political pressure to bury the Watergate story that allowed us read what her reporters dug up.

Sadly most of America's wealthy are conservative, so we will always battle a politically active ownership class in all things. Its rare to see these billionaires actually pick up a liberal agenda in the corporate world.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

40. Russiapublicans will sacrifice anything to rule.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

48. The GOP is the world's very best professional hypocrites.

The real flipping and mass hypocrisy will begin the day President Biden is sworn in......

[Yeehah]

53. We're in a war with fascists

The fascists will do anything and everything to obtain more power and destroy democracy in the USA, including taking advantage of any weakness in the Democrats. Resigning because of a very minor impropriety years ago is weakness.