Y'know what? I suspect there WAS fraud in this election.

[Jeebo]

There is an obvious red shift in the vote totals around the country. Biden was up by at least seven points in every poll and by double digits in some of them, eight points in the polling average. He won by only four points. We were supposed to hold on to the House comfortably, probably gain a few seats, and instead we barely held on to it. We were supposed to net gain several Senate seats and gained only one, with two Georgia seats still pending. We were supposed to do much better than we did in state legislatures. I think this pronounced red shift in the national vote totals is suspicious. If there was voter fraud in this election, it benefitted Republicans, not Democrats.

-- Ron

[Blue Owl]

1. K&R

I'm with 'ya...

[mushroomhunter]

95. if trump could have cheated

he would have. just didn't cheat enough.

[radius777]

2. Voter suppression.

Polls only measure intent to vote, not what actually happens when the ballot doesn't make it there or is disqualified, or if there are long lines and/or broken machines in Dem strongholds causing some of those voters to be unwilling or unable to wait.

[jaysunb]

3. Tinfoil hat alert !

I think the fix was in and was foiled by the overwhelming democratic votes especially with mail in ballots,

[Iwasthere]

8. Exactly!

That's why he's so pissed. He was told the fix was in. He just couldn't have lost! Waiting for him to come out and tell us that he absolutely KNOWS there was fraud, because it was fixed for him and it didn't come to fruition.

[LiberalLovinLug]

61. "He was told the fix was in. He just couldn't have lost!"

Also, because scoundrels like him think everybody is also cheating. That anyone that claims they don't cheat is obviously lying, because no one is morally, or in any other way, superior to him.

So if he cheated, and still lost, it has to be that the Democrats just cheated "better" than he did.

[angstlessk]

11. I would love to see how many mail in

voters failed to enter down ballot choices. Many were first time voters who don't follow politics and don't know about who was down ballot, so just left them blank.

[yellowdogintexas]

49. Don Jr was trying to claim that undervotes were fraudelent.

We have a huge issue with undervoting here.
I think it is because for the most part voters do not know anything about the ballot except the very top lines. I also think there are many voters who do not know the districts they live in and the ballot confuses them.

the elimination of straight ticket voting has contributed to undervoting.

Our Elections Office can sort the data to show total votes for each line on the ballot; comparing the statewide & countywide races with the Presidential race totals really demonstrates this.
I can sort it for my precinct
The farther down the ballot, the less likely it will even be voted on.

[angstlessk]

52. Exactly, mail in votes cannot do down ballot voting

and if first time voters are unsure they probably left them blank, hence repubs got more votes down ballot as a result.

[GoneOffShore]

56. We voted absentee from abroad, and we could vote for President and congress critter only.

No Senate seat up in PA, so....

[Bettie]

30. I tend to think this might be the case as well

I suspect the postal service had a lot more to do with things than we can imagine.

[spooky3]

36. I do too, and I hope this is investigated. Nt

[Catherine Vincent]

75. I think you're right

It's why Trump was doing all that dancing at his rallies.

[rocktivity]

99. I concur with your diagnosis: It was a perfect storm of sorts

Last edited Sun Jan 10, 2021, 03:48 PM - Edit history (16)

From 2016:


From 2020:


According to USA Today, 65 million 2020 election votes -- FORTY per cent of the nearly 160 million total -- were cast by mail, and in addition, 35 million people voted early/absentee. Compared to nearly 129 million votes cast in 2016, where did those extra 31 million votes come from? That apathetic "green zone!"




With a combination of overall higher turnout (despite the voter suppression attacks); most of Biden's votes being cast early or by mail; and only about just one third of the votes actually being cast on Election Day, maybe there just weren't enough blue in-person machine votes to flip.


rocktivity

[uponit7771]

116. This doesn't mean the OP is off in thinking at all, both can be true.

[FoxNewsSucks]

4. Cheating and stealing have benefitted

republicons in every election since 2000 and probably before.

While elected Democrats mainly look the other way, republicon operatives refine their methods of cheating and stealing. We are at the point of them having a permanent "elected" majority.

[usaf-vet]

41. EXACTLY! It worked in 2016 they planned a tweak for 2020. The republicans have been stealing......

..... elections since the false flag hanging chads in Florida in 2000. They knew that the population numbers are NOT in their favor so, their answer, voter fraud, voter ID, gerrymandering, voter suppression, eliminating voting places and machines, purging voter rolls. But most important computerized voting.

The crazy women citing Venezuela software and machines was IMO voicing a half-truth. The half she had right is computerized voting CAN manipulate the final numbers (flip numbers). The part she HAD WRONG is it wasn't Biden who was cheating it WAS TRUMP but they miscalculated the 10 million unexpected votes. If you LISTEN to tRump he ALWAYS blames his opponents for doing what he is actually doing.

You need to
1. flip within the margin of error (as to not send up red flags).

2. You need to discount exit polling and polling in general (The Drudge Report on the eve of the 2000 election published a headline in a big red font. DON'T TRUST THE EXIT POLLS!)

3. The TOTAL number of votes in a precinct CANNOT exceed the number of people who ACTUALLY VOTED (Another red flag)

Example: 1000 persons voted in a precinct the margin of error is 3-5%. So candidate A can lose 30-50 votes while candidate B can gain 30-50 votes making them gain an advantage. Which when added to other precincts can alter the outcome.

PAPER BALLOTS! We are now 27 days after the voting and tRump still insists he won. SO if it takes 10 days to count the votes so what we would have an audible record to prove actual votes.

[yellowdogintexas]

55. regarding Item 3, it is my experience that the reverse is true

I have NEVER had an election even come close to more than 65% of registered voters in my precinct. It runs around 50%, although this year was better. State wide Texas vote can be as low as 40%

If the various state legislatures had allowed the vote by mail work to begin earlier we would have been done by Thursday. Our ballot board started verifications on October 15th; the ballots were scanned during the day on Nov 3. All counties with population in excess of 100,000 do this. The smaller ones start on the last day of early voting.

Regarding paper ballots: the newer equipment being offered generates a paper ballot that is then scanned. At the end of the day, tapes are run showing the total # of ballots scanned.
The check in record shows the number of folks who showed up. The tape total + any provisional or spoiled ballots should equal the number of checkins. We have 100% paper backup for every vote.

We run two copies of both sets of tapes - one is totals proving we started at 0 and ended with the total; one set goes to the elections office and one set goes home with the judge. The second tapes are the election summary showing results for each race. The judge takes home a copy.

The scanner and the check in equipment go to the Elections center with the ballots. NOTHING comes in or goes out on the internet. The touch screen for voting has no memory, when the ballot is printed, amnesia sets in until the next access code is entered.

Not every county has this equipment yet but all of our metropolitan counties do - we were required to upgrade our equipment to allow us to accept any voter at any location in the county on Election Day.

It is essentially not worth the trouble to attempt to mess with the vote here because one party is very dominant.

[usaf-vet]

65. Maybe I worded it wrong BUT I think my #3 and your tally as written mean the same thing IMO.

My #3: The TOTAL number of votes in a precinct CANNOT exceed the number of people who ACTUALLY VOTED (Another red flag)

and your wording: The tape total + any provisional or spoiled ballots should equal the number of checking.

Are these the same? I guess I could have put it this way.... The TOTAL number of votes cannot exceed... The tape total + any provisional or spoiled ballots should equal the number of checking.

If a 1000 people actually vote (including provisional or spoiled ballots) the total reported votes for that precinct can't be a number great than 1000.

I hope we are trying to say the same thing.

[intrepidity]

5. I agree, although it more likely was technically voter suppression

Plus, Trump & Co screaming about it nonstop is a tell, aka projection.

I worry that our side is being forced into a position of defending how clean and fair our elections are, when that is far from true--and could be used against us in the future.

[TexasBushwhacker]

70. There was definitely voter suppression in Texas

at non-white voters. Who in their right mind would say that each county, regardless of population, could have only a single drop off point for mail in ballots? Thankfully, 90% of Texas voters voted in person and turnout was 14% over 2016.

[uponit7771]

117. +1, I've been saying for weeks the polling firms don't weight voter suppression accurately.

[Hestia]

6. I wholly agree and said the same thing two weeks ago. The numbers/polling make absolutely

no sense, and of course, benefit the reds.

[pandr32]

7. I completely agree

[Iwasthere]

9. It's not only okay to believe this,

IT'S IMPERATIVE! Or we'll Never change it. We must eliminate their nefarious tactics where we can. We've got 8 years.

[erronis]

20. 8 years? Why not 12, 16? The (r)epuglicons will be fractured. The Democrats need to be strong

and have a comprehensive platform. We need to gain strength in congress as well as in the states.

And we need to shine a bright light on the misdeeds of these (r)s and fix the laws that allowed them to subvert democracy.

[applegrove]

10. Republicans lying to pollster. 2% of republicans saying they are voting

Biden when they are not.

[KPN]

37. Where does that info come from?

Unless you have some evidence, I’m inclined to believe that’s just GOP initiated spin to cover their tracks. They have a lot of experience at covering their tracks. It’s second nature to them by now.

[applegrove]

46. The polls were off by 4%. Same thing happened to Kerry in 2004.

The excuse was shy elephant theory then as this election. Where do you get your info?

[tritsofme]

50. In 2004, final polls were largely accurate in predicting a small Bush lead.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/bush_vs_kerry.html

[KPN]

71. I didn't share any information. I was just wondering where you got the 2% from. I've heard the

theory, but I've never seen any data verifying it. I think there's probably some truth to the theory, but I question it's plausibility as explanation for why the polls have been as far off as they've been in 2016 and especially 2020. I'm going to be suspicious until I see something measurable and legitimate.

[applegrove]

73. The polls were off in 2004 too election day.

[tritsofme]

81. Sounds like mythmaking, the final polls were largely accurate in 2004

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/bush_vs_kerry.html

[applegrove]

84. The exit polls, which were published during election day in 2004, gave

the win to Kerry early. Harried democratic parents, or the lazy young, did not likely vote after work most likely as they were led to believe Kerry had already won

[tritsofme]

88. I don't think there is any real evidence that leaked early exit poll data, that were only available

to political junkies on the internet, had any actual influence on the outcome. More mythmaking.

[applegrove]

97. So the MSM made a rule to never publish presidential vote exit polls

during election day, they made this rule in unison right after the 2004 election and it had nothing to do with what happened? Um.... kay.

[tritsofme]

108. They already had that rule, it was just flagrantly violated in 2004.

And was tightened up considerably after that incident.

Only sites like Drudge and Kos published leaked early exit results. It was widely known in newsrooms and even the campaigns, but only political junkies would have been aware in the general public.

There is absolutely no evidence that the information was widely circulated enough to depress turnout in any meaningful way. The folks who viewed the leaks still had no way of knowing if data that was exclusively being shared through unreliable and non-mainstream sources was even at all accurate.

The only comparable story I recall is in 1980 when Carter conceded while polls were still open on the West coast, and many believe it led to further down ballot losses. But this 2004 story is just the stuff of myths.

[KPN]

87. Those were exit polls. Apples and oranges.

[applegrove]

111. They were false polling that may have kept democrats home from voting.

And by big percentages. We better get to the bottom of why polling is off 4% or it will happen again.

[KPN]

112. Yes they were. And that may have even a coordinated strategy by

Rs, but it doesn’t explain 2020.

[uponit7771]

118. +1, people guessing. There's NOT ONE POLLING FIRM with an analysis of how they were off yet! NOT 1

[BobTheSubgenius]

12. I agree.

Based on their track record, they both could and would do this, and feel justified, to boot.

[Kingofalldems]

13. Call Trump's bluff and thoroughly investigate.

He cheated right out in front with the USPS crimes.

[KPN]

38. And proclaiming mail in voting fraudulent months before the election!

Investigating would be wise, but probably won’t happen. Too much other stuff to fix. The investigating agencies need to be righted before any investigations like that could be carried out in confidence. Investigating stirs the bee hive, etc.

[Orangepeel]

14. republicans openly do everything they can think of to suppress the vote

I think it is suspicious that every toss up went their way, but I think that the cheating they do right out in the open can explain it

[KPN]

40. It was those Dominion machines! ... But

seriously, you are right about suspicious.

[KPN]

85. It was those Dominion machines! ... But

seriously, you are right about suspicious.

[Grasswire2]

15. agree something is fishy

And remember that Karl Rove was/is working for Trump again. He has stated that an election that is within three points can easily be stolen by manipulation.

And Jennifer Cohn, the attorney who is THE expert on election security, says there were unusual shifts and trends in certain precincts. Goddam hackable machines, things that connect to the Internet even though the reverse was claimed...etc.

We need legislation at the national level setting forth some standards for best practices and mandating them. Even though elections are the purview of the states, national standards should be met.

[planetc]

16. I agree with every word you say, except the last sentence:

"If there was voter fraud in this election, it benefitted Republicans, not Democrats." Should be: If there was vote rigging in this election, it benefited Republicans, not Democrats." "Voter fraud" is the Republican term for hordes of illegals and other hoi polloi swarming our pretty white country and stealing elections. (Did you read that there are some Indian tribes who want their land back?)

"Voter suppression" takes place mostly in advance of the election, or on election day itself, when you find out without warning that you're not registered. Vote rigging takes place instantly after you think you've cast your vote, or safely had your paper ballot counted. Some of them were counted, all right, just not for the candidate you voted for.

It seems to be impossible for the media to consider the possibility that the polls were right, and the election was wrong. I have heard two in-depth discussions on NPR about what's the matter with polling. Polling is fine; elections are ripe for theft.

[Jeebo]

72. Okay, I should have been more precise in my wording.

But you understand what I meant.

-- Ron

[planetc]

74. I understand exactly what you meant, and applaud it.

I was trying to point out how the Republicans seize innocent terms and use them for their own purposes. "Voter fraud" coordinates nicely with the Republican base's fear of immigration, of job theft, and of "socialism", a term they equate with anything to the left of Genghis Khan, as Paul Krugman said. And in the case of the "red shift" in elections from 2000 onward, the media remain functionally ignorant of what the term means, and what it might imply. The media have been covering attempts to suppress the vote for several years, without ever admitting that there's another way to affect the outcome of elections--by direct manipulation. NPR is now giving full coverage to the "inexplicable" gaps between poll predictions and election outcomes, but they can only conceive of bad polls. So far, they haven't taken the next step, which would be to explore the ways an election outcome might be illegally changed after votes are cast.

[LizBeth]

17. I agree. And quietly we will go on and fix the messes the current Republican adm made.

Republican companies sending machines to republican govs.

[roamer65]

18. Rove's 3 pct election fraud, plus the actual winning margin of 4 pct equals 7 percent.

We are now seeing how their electoral fraud machine works.

[sandensea]

29. +1

Luckily for our democracy, those Chattanooga servers of his can only do so much.

[Kitchari]

19. K&R n/t

[SayItLoud]

21. tRUMP always projects. NT

[Hoyt]

22. Unbelievable -- Both parties claiming there was fraud.

[uponit7771]

119. Except we objectively have the reality of Trumps cheating & voter suppression as factors ....

... and republicans have conspiracy theories.

[tritsofme]

23. At least we have confirmed that irony is alive and well.

We rightfully mock Trump and Republicans for their baseless conspiracy theories on vote fraud; to adopt the same posture is just mind numbing.

[Bettie]

32. For the most part, what we're talking about is

massive suppression, which has been going on for a long time and the whole deal with the post office, courtesy of DeJoy.

So, we're talking about people using incorrect terminology.

[SophieJean]

58. I suggest you read

Greg Palast, an expert on Repuglican election tricks.
https://www.gregpalast.com

[progressoid]

79. Greg Palast's hat is on too tight.

He has a history of exaggeration and ignoring facts.

[DENVERPOPS]

106. You will probably say the same thing

.......about William Rivers Pitt????????

Just asking.......

Their writing/attitudes/opinions may have changed over the years, but immediately after 9/11 those two were obsessed with letting people here in the U.S. know what as TRULY going on behind the scenes, and all the massive RepubliCON propaganda that was being shoveled down our throats from Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld, and a hundred other of their minions.........

[tritsofme]

109. lol, now there's a clown I haven't thought of in a while.

DU is an infinitely better place in the permanent absence of that POS.

[progressoid]

80. +1

[appleannie1]

24. There was massive voter suppression in a lot of states as well as postal delays etc.

Thankfully enough more Dems showed up to overcome some of it enough to pull out a win and they were not expecting that.

[twodogsbarking]

25. Usually if Trump accuses someone of something

he has already done it.

[DeSmet]

26. Fox Trotting

When the when Repubs accuse the other side of that which they are guilty.

[sandensea]

27. We have Bush's Help America Vote REPUBLICAN Act to thank for that

Many of those touch screens are still from the Diebold/Urosevich era - rabid right-wingers, as we all know.

Full of back doors and read-and-write software - and we know both Isreal and Russia have the capacity to flip votes (in places that have them). Bush knew what he was doing.

[Disaffected]

28. How can we think that and

at the same time accuse the Repubs of claiming voting fraud without evidence??

Where's the evidence of Republican fraud (other than polls that were inaccurate and suspicions that Repubs always cheat)? I don't believe any of these accusations would hold up in court, similarly to what the Repugs have attempted.

[tritsofme]

31. Cognitive dissonance.

[LymphocyteLover]

45. because voting machine companies tend to be rightwing owned and more counties are GOP controlled

and the polls were way off again

[Disaffected]

67. Suspicions, not evidence.

BTW, a former Canadian PM, John Diefenbaker, liked to say that the only thing polls are good for are dogs.

[LymphocyteLover]

96. why bother polling then?

[Disaffected]

103. I dunno,

makes money for the polling organizations, sells newspapers, cannon fodder for the politicians and pundits, gives the hoi polloi something to chatter about. Lots of good reasons....

[grantcart]

59. Can't.

"We didn't get what we wanted so we were cheated but have no evidence".

Mirror claims

The WP provided the simplest and most accurate explanation:

Both sides drove up turn out but the Republicans were more effective in combining low propensity "only Trumpets" with Regular Republican/right leaning regular independent voters. The later group included a sizeable number of suburban voters who voted for Biden (and a couple of Dem Senatorial candidates) and returned to vote Republican down ballot.

[Disaffected]

69. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, seems reasonable. nt

[uponit7771]

120. Voter suppression and voter fraud are two different acts that are no were close in implementation

... but aim at similar effect.

Apples and berry's

[luvtheGWN]

33. A view from the north

Perhaps the simple answer is that there were enough Repubs who wanted Trump OUT, but still wanted their GOP Senators and Congress critters in.

[Diraven]

34. Probably just vote suppression

These are things we know and can prove happen:
1. Voter registration purges that disproportionately remove Democrats.
2. Removal of polling places in Democratic areas resulting in long lines where people give up before they get to vote
3. Robocalls to Democrats giving them voting misinformation.
4. Removal of mail sorting machines in Democratic areas resulting in late or lost ballots.

I'm sure there's more I can't remember right now. We don't need conspiracy theories.

[LymphocyteLover]

47. definitely those are hugely important and may account for the discrepencies

still hard to not wonder about Trump vote totals and the history of Republican fuckery
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214627880

[uponit7771]

121. THIS !!!! ☝🏾☝🏾☝🏾 add 5.) there's no other developed country on earth who's polling is this ..

.. off for this long and tilted this many times towards one party.

This post should be its on OP, we ... KNOW ... these things happen and have proof not wild guessing or conspiracy theories.

Also ad

[moondust]

35. You mean like

fraud at the state and local levels while everybody was distracted watching the Presidential race?

[LymphocyteLover]

43. Yep. Easier to get away with big vote shifts there.

[MRDAWG]

39. Defund the police and riots.........

got the Repubs off their butts to vote.

I am in Metro Atlanta and that's what their ads are still about.

[LymphocyteLover]

42. Yes, I posted about some of that here

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214627880

[crud]

44. I'd like to see a study

of polls done in Democratic run state elections vs. actual outcome....compared to Republican run elections.

[uponit7771]

122. +1, I OP'd this a month ago; that the blue ran SoS states polling is closer to actual votes than red

... SoS states because of voter suppression efforts that are under weighted in polling.

The polling companies owe America

[barbtries]

48. i've always wondered

why mcconnell was soooo confident he'd still be in charge after the election. supposedly his approval rating in KY is abysmal. and it was a blowout.

i think you're right. but keep in mind there are millions of americans who totally do not believe it. such is the nature of the polarization in our country right now.

[SharonAnn]

90. KY votes " R". He was the only "R" running.

[barbtries]

94. i know that's a lot of it.

hard to imagine it being ALL of it, when he's so unpopular.

[dianaredwing]

51. Absolutely

There is no reason whatsoever to not assume that the Trumpsters cheated. It is what they do. Why they are stupid enough to want an investigation is beyond me because all that can be discovered is that they cheated for the votes they did get. Their crying wolf will catch them if anyone cares to look. They always cheat. it's the one thing we can depend upon.

[GetRidOfThem]

53. My suspicion all along...

Whatever Agend Orange accuses others of having done, he has done himself. He is pissed because he expected to win, since he gamed the system...

[SleeplessinSoCal]

54. trump tried and true suing when he breaks contracts is what he brought to the oval.

Don't think its going to stop. He is a teacher of fraud.

[kentuck]

57. If I was a betting man....?

I would bet that you are right. He always likes to accuse others of exactly that which he is personally guilty of doing himself. It is a pattern.

[diva77]

60. Interesting how the machines were way ahead for Dump before the mail in ballots were

counted. I don't see any of MSM interviewing REAL cyberexperts like Harry Hursti, for example, about the mysterious success of rethugs despite all the polls that predicted wins for dems.

MSM has put Krebs on a pedestal and probed no further.

Now there will be sound bites with Dems saying the machines are legit, accurate, blah blah blah - that can be used against them in the future the same way all those rethugs' statements about not appointing a SCOTUS in an election yr have been used against them.

K&R X 1,000,000

[kentuck]

62. I like the paper ballot.

With a signature.

Can they scan each individual name and keep it in a file, with a backup?

There is a reason Republicans hate the paper ballot and the mail-in paper ballot.

[diva77]

64. The best way to run elections is to have paper ballots, hand marked in secret and counted publicly

at the precinct level with public oversight. The counting is best done by the sort/stack/count/count method http://www.protectcaliforniaballots.org/Documents/Handouts2/The%20Sort,%20Stack,%20Count,%20Count%20method%20for%20hand%20counting%20paper%20ballots.pdf

and the results should be posted at the precinct before the ballots are taken to the county elections HQ. All voting, with the exception of people with special needs, should be done ON election day.

Voter registration should be done with printed paper books NOT epoll books.

There is no "back up" document needed -- the BALLOT is the BALLOT of record.

Precinct size is capped off at between 1-1500 people so you never have long waits. If the population grows, you still will never have long waits. This era of 8 hour lines is another cruel, devious invention of the rethugs.

[kentuck]

66. Great ideas!

I hope the Party adopts a few of those!

[Pobeka]

83. Hand counts are fine if there is only 1 ballot issue.

Here in WA, there have been at times 30 issues on the ballots, between # races and referendums, etc.

So we'd need 30 ballots per voter. In this last election I believe we had about 15 issues on the ballot in my precinct.

I really like the basic premise of a hand count, it's really not overly time consuming with each precinct working in parallel. It just gets more complicated with more issues on the ballot and more pieces of paper to organize and track through the system.

[diva77]

98. You don't need 30 ballots per voter. You resort & restack for each race that is being counted.

It takes no more brain power than sorting laundry. Citizens can be summoned for counting duty via the jury pool system and would only be called for duty most likely once every 2-3 years for 1 election.

[linnknee]

63. I totally agree that if there was fraud it was on the Republican Side

There was a blurb I believe on Democratic Underground that a county in Kentucky had 2000 something Republican Registered Voters and 3000 something Democratic Registered Voters - I remember the county started with a B and McConnell got 3900 something votes and McGrath got 939. I believe Trump won 2016 because votes were shifted from Clinton to Trump [granted small amounts but enough] to swing those 3 states totaling 77,000 for him to win. Maybe they messed around with mail in ballots in 2016 to get to 77,000 and that's why Trump has been harping since day one that mail in ballots are ripe for fraud. There was a story at the time where people believed that and it died. The Republicans are cheaters for everything. There are now Republican Congress people who are going on TV - the gloves are off - we fighting the dems on everything. Maybe the time has come for elections to be federalized with all states adhering to the same rules and regulations and closing their ballot due dates either election day or a day or so later. In my opinion, anything the Republicans or Trump touches DIES!

[intrepidity]

124. Federalized elections? Just imagine the damage Trump would have done.

Having states in charge of elections may have been our last safeguard.

[coeur_de_lion]

68. I agree if he could have cheated

He definitely would have. Just not by enough to win.

He would do anything to stay in including sell his own kids Grandkids and his wives.

[UCmeNdc]

76. Maybe the "fix" was put in by Trump

But those mail in ballots just cannot be changed and they leave a paper record for a recount. Mmmmmmm?????

[quakerboy]

77. We need to nuke the black box voting machines

There needs to be an easily verifiable and re-countable physical ballot for every voter. Every time.

[intrepidity]

123. Don't nearly all (or all?) machines now print a paper ballot?

That's my impression, but not certain.

[Texin]

78. tRump always cheats at everything. John Dean said he believed tRump believed it

was rigged for him, and that's why he will not accept the results. Dean posited that the "fixer" just underesitmated the number he'd need in the presidential race by 10 million votes. Now, I don't know if Dean was being tongue in cheek with this remark in his usual dry humor, but I actually think he probably believes it. Actually, I do too. With the polling being consistently showing Biden ahead by 6-8 points, I actually do believe they underestimated the number of "votes" he'd need, and the retrumplican voters did show up, they just didn't goose up the totals enough to compensate for Democratic vote performance.

[DENVERPOPS]

105. I think at this point

a more accurate statement would be: All RepubliCON politicians cheat. At this time, the entire RepubliCON Party has been doing it for so long, they don't know of any other Fricking way. They all, without exception, believe: THEIR MEANS JUSTIFY THE END........
The RepubliCON's manifesto is the document the wrote and published... "PNAC" Project New American Century, Circa 1997?

Side Note: Has anyone heard one single thing since 2008 from the infamous CABAL of Cheney/Rumsfeld/Perle/Wolfowitz/etc etc etc???
Many have thought that someone in the background or shadows is running this shit show because this past four years would require far bigger brains and organization than Moron Mitch or Trump could ever accomplish........All of this entire mess didn't just happen or fall into place. As far as Putin's assistance????? It wasn't the Democrats that put him to work on his dastardly deeds. It wasn't the Democrats that removed all obstacles, to his sabotage actions since 2015.

[Texin]

113. I agree with your premise. Don't forget about their moneybags: i.e., the Kochs,

Mercers, et al. Dark money has fueled the retrumplicans - or as you put it, RepubliCons - since the Gilded Age and before. They are the the quintessential Daddy Warbucks of Little Orphan Annie notoriety. They are the very group that Eisenhower, in his parting remarks to the nation warned of, "The Military/Industrial Complex.". Cheney/Rumsfeld/Perle/Wolfowitz, and the enabled puppet W, were there instruments of that particular time, as tRump is today.

[Botany]

82. The polls were not that wrong

"They" cheat end of story. No way in hell that Trump picked up 11,000,000 votes after
being the worst POTUS in history and he was just bleeding support from his 2016 base too.

BTW I think Trump's 2016 #s were padded too but Russia and the machines.

For God's sake Susan Collins was underwater in all the polls in 2020.

[Trueblue Texan]

86. I tend to agree...

...I also think that's why they've presented no evidence of any weight...they kinda don't want anyone really looking for evidence of election fraud because they'll be found out.

[robbedvoter]

89. 10 million people didn't suddenly decide they like Agolf now ( they didn't in 2016)

Then there are the menacing tweets from the 🍊 family Election Night: “fall in line, or else!”. You have to wonder what “ else “ was, because they all did. Rove was talking about shaving 3%, but more was shoveled here.

[PatrickforO]

91. I absolutely agree with you!

If there was cheating, it certainly happened on the Republican side.

[rolypolychloe]

92. They probably cheated, but not with the machines

Republicans prefer low tech cheating. Typically voter suppression. The definitive work on this is "What happened in Ohio" by John Conyers. As I understand it, Georgia machines produced a paper ballot, with both human readable and machine readable results. Now they could have programmed the machine to produce a bar code that did not match the human readable portion, but they just had a hand recount, where they were supposed to count the human readable portion.

I suspect they interfered with the mail in ballots. If the ballot was for a Democratic district, it either wasn't sent, got discarded on the way back or was rejected for some small flaw.

In NJ, if the signature doesn't match, the ballot is discarded, so it's up to the political agenda of the person comparing the signatures. Unless, AI is used to adjudicate the signatures, without bias, it is an opportunity to cheat. So in NJ, if you don't have a Republican sounding name or you don't live in a Republican district, you need to appear in person so if they challenge your signature, you can just show your id. Don't know if Georgia requires signature match.

So, I think the Republicans cheated, just as they have since and including Lincoln, they just didn't cheat enough.

[diva77]

100. I wouldn't draw any conclusions about repubs preferring low tech cheating

Consider this, for example:

https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0511/S00067.htm

yes, it's from 2005, but things have only gotten more sophisticated since then.

[MaeScott]

93. ...and it's said he gained votes from POC , I say that's where they hid the votes

Republicans have access to voter rolls and I bet they can see votes from these machines in real time, plus access them, so if a person registered doesn’t vote, bingo! They voted republican. Along with whatever is in the machine software. Plus sow the lie that he gained voters from this demo.

[paulkienitz]

101. That same discrepancy has been recurring for the last twenty years.

[budkin]

102. I think that's why Trump is freaking out

He knows it was supposed to be rigged in his favor.

[DENVERPOPS]

104. No one

can be so naive to think that Putin would tamper with just the presidential election results.
Putin has a wealth of experience in screwing with elections, he has been doing it for years in his Motherland....

The down ballot candidates can be screwed with too. There were a lot of people predicting the Senator's from Maine, Carolina, Kentucky etc were gonna go down in smoke, along with many more house republicans.

[rocktivity]

107. I think we would have seen a replay of 2016 if covid hadn't made mail-in voting a thing.

Last edited Wed Sep 29, 2021, 07:49 PM - Edit history (2)

It dropped the in-person machine voting on Election Day itself to roughly one third of the 160 million vote total -- not enough blue machine votes to flip, perhaps?

As for the polls, it was certainly comforting that they didn't mysteriously tighten up in late October. But we get the polls that the pollsters' customers pay for...




rocktivity

[rgbecker]

110. It seems like it wouldn't take much to do a post election poll.

Every place keeps a record of who votes. Simply take a random pick of 1% of every precincts' voters. Call them up and ask if they indeed voted and who they voted for. Compare the results with the reported precinct's tally's and if they are off by more than 2 or 3% flag the precinct and then see how many precincts get flagged and where they are located. Evaluate the make up of the precinct and see if there is a pattern.

If people were checked off on the voted list but report they didn't vote, you know you have a problem.

If the red shift persists, then something really is happening with people not telling the truth of how they will/did vote or something is wrong with whole system.

These polling experts should be on this case right now, before the voters forget what they did!

[uponit7771]

115. xactly, we should have post election audits anyway. There's no other developed country that has had

... its polling this off for this long with tilted outcomes towards one party.

I'm thinking voter suppression works and the polling companies aren't weighting the affects of voter suppression properly

[uponit7771]

114. **THANK YOU!!!*** I've been saying this for WEEKS !! Either US has worse polling of any developed ..

... country on earth or the voting is off or some shit and people guessing at slogans and terms killing it for dems is just that, guessing.

The polling companies owe America on why we should trust them again at the least !!

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

[rgbecker]

125. To determine if it is voter suppression that is the problem....

Polling outfits should be going back to former respondents to ask if indeed they voted as they intended or not...and if not, why.

The polling says they asked "Likely voters". Well let's check out if that is where the glitch is. Are supporters of Biden or any of the past democratic candidates just lazy and not actually voting?

[uponit7771]

126. +1, this is another great point; LV voting is more granular and less noisy cause they know more ...

... about the people so they can go back and check even if they don't know the names.

The polling companies can reverse there states to see if any assumptions were off.

My other method more high level and less granular would be to check voting in Red lead SoS states vs blue lead SoS states and see if the polling in the red lead swing states is worse.

That would be a decent tell tale that voter suppression is an underweighted factor in current US polling.