Which is worse: H1B Visa Holders or Illegal Immigrants.

[Snake Alchemist]

I have noticed a disconnect when it comes to discussing immigration in the US. Many white-collar people who I respect greatly seem to take great pride in exclaiming their support for illegal immigrants on the basis that they are fleeing poor living conditions, and they build their homes cheaply and keep their lawns trim for a steal The conclusion seems to be that the former drywlller who no longer can get work needs to be retrained or go back to school for higher education.

On the opposite hand when the topic turns to H1B Visa Holders the anger is palpable. Rather than taking a job on a construction site, they are committing a unforgivable sin by taking a white-collared worker's office job, and they should just be back in their home country trying to make things better The conclusion is that office jobs are off limits, and H1B Visa Holders are destroying white-collar wages.

Has anyone else noticed this same phenomenon?

[joeglow3]

1. It is all over this website.

I have explained many times what my father experienced as a drywaller. According to people here, it is a job he (or any other American) simply doesn't want to work. People here have called me a racist right winger because I feel the way I do after my family experienced what it did.

In my opinion, there are multple parties that are wrong with illegal immigration, but there is only 1 party wrong with the visas (the government). That said, BOTH fuel the degradation of the middle class.

[Snake Alchemist]

2. I'm against any practice that drives down wages. nt

[Populist_Prole]

38. Aye, there's the rub. The issue in a nutshell

I do believe there are people, who are otherwise decent sorts, who fit the behavior of those you describe in your OP. They seem to want an economy whereby they keep their wages high, and then have more purchasing power if everyone else's wages are low. Can't have that. Prosperity must be shared to allow it to perpetuate.

[Zalatix]

76. IOW, white collar workers bashing blue collar workers?

[Vincardog]

61. +1 got it in one.

[Fumesucker]

3. I've noticed it too..

If you sit in an office your job is sacrosanct, do some sort of physical labor and clearly you deserve to have your job taken away because you are so stupid as to not have gotten an education.

If you watch Mike Rowe's Dirty Jobs you'll find that more than a few dirty jobs take some smarts too, if only to keep from getting injured or killed on the job.

[madokie]

12. All jobs takes smarts as you put it

and not all people have the same capabilities so we have brick layers and we have company heads. No one is more important in the whole scheme of things than the other is.

[Confusious]

4. Both are bad

I can't really say which is worse

Both are being used to replace American workers by corporations.

One is just here to send money home, one hopes to jump to the front of the line of immigrants who want to come here.

[Nye Bevan]

5. YES. The whole idea of immigrants coming to America is simply appalling.

Immigration to America? Why would anyone allow such a thing?

[Confusious]

9. Try reading and understanding the words

Instead of projecting what you think the words mean.

One can not like both and still be fine with immigration.

It's a complex idea, don't hurt yourself trying to figure it out.

[Lance_Boyle]

31. Don't worry with those who intentionally conflate illegal immigration with immigration.

Their continued use of fundamentally dishonest rhetoric self-dismisses them from rational discussion on the topic.

[mrmpa]

59. Here's my simplistic approach (answer) to the immigration issue...

Last edited Wed Jan 11, 2012, 02:05 AM - Edit history (1)

As has been noted in other postings, "illegal immigration" has brought wages down. I have seen US citizen carpenters who a few years ago were making $20-$25 an hour could now only get $8-$10 due to jobs being given to those without US citizenship.

Here's what we do, we need to allow those in the United States without documentation, get documentation. There can be parameters, such as those with felony convictions not be permitted to stay. When these men and women get their documentation, they must within say 3 years take and pass their citizenship tests, if they don't they are not permitted to stay.

Once these men and women get their documentation, they can enter the work force legally, become represented by a Union, basically do what every immigrant class has done and that is to negotiate for a fair and decent wage.

Yes simplistic, yes it needs work, but these men and women are here and they should be welcomed.

[Snake Alchemist]

62. And there needs to be a robust agency that does daily checkups on work sites. nt

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

6. Nothing wrong with H1B visa holders, just looking for work

It's the H1B visa GRANTERS and the corporations (and nations) that buy their support, those piss me off.

We don't have a big shortage of qualified people here, and where we foresee a shortage coming, we should incentivise education via scholarships. What we have is a shortage of qualified people willing to work for peanuts.

[Snake Alchemist]

11. How many H1B visa should be allowed? nt

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

21. To be practical, freeze the number at current level

Then measure the unemployment rate for each skill area. Start discussing increases when the rate falls below some threshold, maybe 4 or 6 percent? Start discussing decreases if the rate is above some other threshold, maybe 9 or 10 percent?

It would be impractical to simply pull all H1B visas at once.

[Snake Alchemist]

23. And freeze the #'s of illegal immigrants at the current level as well?

That would be a difficult task though.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

27. No more difficult than freezing the current level of

marijuana imports.

Piece of cake.

[maggiesfarmer]

7. no, I haven't noticed this attitude a bit

[w8liftinglady]

8. I have a problem with employers who hire either over US citizens.

I work with h1b Visa nurses.I care for "illegal" immigrants.My grandparents were immigrants.No problem with either.
MY problem is with the employer who can manipulate their staff by threatening deportation.

[Starry Messenger]

15. +1000

[pampango]

10. Canada promotes the immigration of highly skilled and educated people rather than the unskilled.

This has the effect of improving the equitable distribution of income. The influx of doctors, engineers and scientists, among others, tends to lower wages at the higher end of the scale, while wages of the working class do not have same level of competition from immigrants.

Their rate of legal immigration is 4 times higher than the US, but the country is very strict on illegal immigration. High immigration levels are very popular in Canada and support for multiculturalism is a part of the Canadian constitution. Even high skilled and educated Canadians don't seem to mind the high number of immigrants in their fields, but that may have more to do with a sense of different sense of nationalism and what is good for the country.

I'm not sure if Canada has anything akin to an H1B visa since they seem to focus more on attracting highly skilled immigrants for permanent residency rather than for a temporary work visa.

[Snake Alchemist]

13. Seems Canada could teach us a thing or two. nt

[provis99]

63. meaning native born Canadians are becoming an underclass in their own country.

[pampango]

64. You'll have to let them know this. Polls show they are very supportive of high immigration levels.

They are under the (mis?)impression that immigration is good for their economy and good for them.

Canadians may know how to run a relatively progressive society, but they sure don't know how to keep "others" out, do they?

[Iggo]

14. I don't hate either.

[Starry Messenger]

16. Employers drive down wages for profit.

That is the problem. I don't blame either set of people who come trying to find work and opportunity. Companies deliberately create situations where workers fight each other over the crumbs.

[Snake Alchemist]

17. And workers buy cheaper products to maximize their purchasing power.

Unfortunately, I doubt the profit motive is going away any time soon. I would love to be able to work in a job where profit was of concern.

[Starry Messenger]

18. "I doubt the profit motive is going away any time soon"

Perhaps not, but people's desperation levels are going to rise more if the profit motive keeps messing with the labor market to the extent that it has. Which it will, since layoffs create profits. I'd rather see people working together to fight for better conditions than pointing fingers at each other, which only produces dangerous situations for the vulnerable.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

19. yes, there is a disconnect when discussing legal vs. illegal immigration

Trying to educate people, even intelligent people here on DU, about U.S. immigration law has been very difficult, because people 'hear' things or see things on YouTube and immediately assume they are the truth. However, trying to explain the difference between H-1Bs and L-1Bs and labor condition applications and labor certifications and so on is just an exercise in futility.

As an example, people refer to a rather infamous video by a law firm describing techniques used by lawyers (and paralegals, such as I have done) for labor certifications, yet people immediately associate these with H-1Bs. Labor certs and H-1Bs are not related at all. However, the H-1B does require an attestation known as Labor Condition Application (which is simply known as LCA), which a lot of non-immigration practitioners confuse with labor certification. Totally different processes for different visa benefits (the labor cert is part I for seeking a permanent residence - the H-1B is a temporary non-immigrant visa where one can also request permanent residence).

I've processed thousands of H visas and I can't find one that wasn't paid at the prevailing wage (or more times than not, much more than the prevailing wage). The law requires paying someone at the prevailing wage (which can easily be found online via the DOL-ETA) in that particular area and the employer must prove the employee receives the same benefits as all other workers in the similar occupation.

I'm sure abuses exist, but - and I have worked for IT companies in house and various law firms - I have not seen one yet. However, I have always argued that the L-1B visa program is the one which is rife for abuse (it has no wage requirements, no education requirements, etc.).

But it feels like I'm talking to myself. All the while, illegal immigration - especially in construction - has driven down wages. I work HR for a construction company and where once these jobs paid above $20/hour in my area, now the wages are much lower, as people try to compete.

[Snake Alchemist]

20. Sounds like you have good first hand knowledge which you can impart.

I remember when a construction job could feed, clothe, and house a family of 4.

[sharp_stick]

22. I wish I could rec this reply

The complexity of immigration and the hoops needing to be jumped thorough don't make for easy discussion on a message board.

[PETRUS]

24. It's not just attitude, it's policy.

And it's BS. People should be able to come and go as they please, especially if capital and goods are being sent across borders.

[Snake Alchemist]

25. So if you can get here by plane, boat or paddle then you become a citizen? nt

[PETRUS]

57. It's complicated.

Equality of opportunity - an idea with which most Americans are sympathetic, even if we're a far cry from realizing it - is a reasonable goal for all of humanity, not just for people born within the US. In the long run, many, many things need to change.

In the short run, I'm against the current arrangements that pit certain workers here against those in low-wage countries but protect others from that same level of competition. For example, American business leaders successfully lobby for trade agreements that allow them to produce manufactured goods in foreign countries with cheaper labor and import them; meanwhile, the AMA successfully lobbies to reduce the number of foreign-born physicians allowed to enter the US and practice medicine. This is hardly the "free market" at work - this is a specific set of policies that drives American wages down in some areas and props them up in others. Just as policy produced this imbalance, policy can correct it.

[Snake Alchemist]

58. Those are some good points.

I just came back from Australia and immigration detentions were all over the news. Looked like a very serious issue there and they only have 30 million people.

[pampango]

26. Great suggestion. Works well in Europe but runs counter to the idea that

"people are not just people but entities belonging to a particular government or patch of earth. One's place of birth makes on fundamentally different from another whose place of birth happened some place else."

We have achieved the human freedom to "come and go as they please" within our 50 states, but going beyond that, as Europeans have done, seems to be a very difficult one for Americans to get over.

[Snake Alchemist]

28. Do Europeans allow Africans and Asians to come and work freely in Europe? nt

[pampango]

32. No, just their immediate neighbors on the continent (30 countries now).

But they are still gradually expanding the number of countries included in their free immigration/trade zone. They show no sign of slowing down the expansion so who knows where it will end.

Obviously the US is reluctant to allow its immediate neighbors, the Canadians, to live and work here so Europe is further along than we are.

[Snake Alchemist]

33. Isn't the 50 states still much larger than the EU?

Considering Canada's prosperity shouldn't they allow the US citizens to work there freely?

This seems to contradict your claim of no slow down.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-bc-eu--france-immigration,0,4083260.story

[pampango]

34. The EU is 500 million people. You're right it would have to be a two-way street with

Canada as it is with Germany-France and all other European countries.

Even if we had free travel throughout our continent it would cover about 450 million.

The article you linked involved the expulsion of illegal immigrants. I'm talking about legal movement of people across borders.

[Snake Alchemist]

35. Per the article

"The majority of immigrants to France come here legally, though the number of new arrivals is shrinking and Gueant wants to reduce it further. The number of residency permits issued last year shrank 3.6 percent to 182,595, he said."


Here is some more on the challenges they are facing.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/06/21/eu-immigration.htm

[pampango]

43. Sarkozy's Conservative Party it taking a hard line on immigration. In part that is politics to fend

off the far-right National Front (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(France)) which wants France out of the EU and Schengen Area.

They have presidential elections coming up in April. The top two candidates then face each other in the final election in May. The Socialists are in the lead in the polls, but the Conservative and National Front parties are pretty close for second and third. They are fighting to finish second in order to face the Socialist candidate in the final round. Since conservatives in France are anti-immigration, the two parties are trying to out-tough each other on the issue to win votes (kind of like our republicans do in their debates.)

[Snake Alchemist]

47. So that is a winning issue? nt

[pampango]

50. They perceive to be a winning issue with conservative voters which is who they need to

appeal to in order to reach the final round of the presidential vote.

Time will tell if it is a winning issue for whichever conservative party when it runs against the Socialist party which has a much more liberal policy on immigration and the EU in general.

[GermanDem]

29. I think this is not true!

You write "and H1B Visa Holders are destroying white-collar wages". To get an H1B visa, your employer has to provide documentation that no American who is better qualified applied for the job. At least that's how it was when we came here 11 years ago. The H1B program is excellent imo, because it gives employers the opportunity to hire highly skilled and educated people from abroad that they would otherwise not be able to get here. The real problem is that education in this country, especially in the sciences and math is so bad that not many Americans actually qualify e.g. for the Silicon Valley- or engineering jobs here. I have friends whose son is an engineer (Americans), and the son is the only American in is department at the engineering firm. Just one look at a college campus says it all: almost all master's students in the engineering programs are foreigners. I don't think the H1B program is the problem, the bad science and math education is actually the root of the evil here.

[Snake Alchemist]

30. There are a lot of computer programmers and engineers out of work in the US.

Are you saying that none of them have the education necessary for these jobs?

[GermanDem]

36. No.

But there are so many more foreign candidates than Americans who go into e.g. engineering. As an employer, I would always hire the applicant who has the best qualification, the best grades, etc. If out of 10 applicants 8 are foreigners, the chances that one of foreigners is the best one for the job are pretty high. That's just a statistical fact.

[Snake Alchemist]

37. So you don't think that citizens should have a built-in advantage? nt

[GermanDem]

39. No.

I can only speak for myself, but I always want to be hired because I am good at what I do, and not because I have a certain passport. This should not play any role in the hiring process whatsoever.

I am, however, in favor of buying American made stuff over e.g. Chinese made stuff, even if it is more expensive. Quality is my first priority.

[Snake Alchemist]

40. So you would be against affirmative action of any kind? nt

[GermanDem]

48. Honestly, yes.

I know that puts me at odds with many here... sorry.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

54. Would Germany allow American high tech workers to come in en masse if there was

high unemployment among German and other EU high tech workers?

[Edweird]

66. It's true. Companies are coached on how to 'game the system' and lie.

Do a little research.

[countryjake]

41. The worst thing is the "blame the workers" attitude...

that so many simply cannot seem to get past. With the near destruction of unions in the construction trade, near 30 years ago now, contractors were able to pit worker against worker and immigrants were severely scapegoated (as has always been the case in this country, during periods of hard times). Non-union construction labor became the norm and working "for cash" with barely any benefits drove many out of a business that had once been one of the most solidly organized occupations in this nation.

So, in trying to answer your question, I would say that the attitude that many workers hold toward immigrants is the far greater problem. The only conclusion possible to regain viable employment in a field that is site-stable and not geographically mobile (meaning organizing the workers would not necessarily result in "outsourcing&quot is to build solidarity with any and all who work at that trade, unionize, and force the employers and any contractors to recognize everyone rights as working people, equally, be they citizen, immigrant, or undocumented.

UNIONIZE!

[Edweird]

42. Yes, I have noticed it. There are some elitist jerks here that love to heap scorn

on people that WORK for a living. It's win/win for them - they break theirs arms patting themselves on the back for being so magnanimous (with someone else's job) AND show their 'superiority' by scolding the unwashed masses for not being educated enough.

[pampango]

45. I believe the correct term is "ivory tower" liberal elitists.

Anyone who doesn't agree with you on immigration policy is an "elitist jerk"?

BTW, "people who work for a living" do a lot better in Europe with its freedom of movement than they do here with our jealously-guarded borders.

[Snake Alchemist]

46. Doesn't the EU have pretty strict rules on who can join

and therefore who can travel in between the nations?

[pampango]

49. Very strict. It takes years of negotiation for new members to satisfy existing members.

The EU does not just open its door to any country that happens to be close by, but the process continues 6 countries lined up to join.

The funny thing is that those nearby countries all want to join the EU (even now in these bad times). The citizens of these countries want access to travel and jobs in Europe so that pressure their politicians to meet the conditions that the EU sets. Normally politicians are not really keen on meeting demands set by "foreign" organizations but this is an exception.

Croatia is the only country that has been approved for membership since 2007. The wiki article below shows that Iceland, Macedonia, Montenegro and Turkey are "official candidates" while Albania and Serbia have submitted membership applications.

Croatia is an acceding country and will become the 28th member of the EU on 1 July 2013. It signed its accession agreement on December 9, 2011. Iceland, Macedonia, Montenegro and Turkey are all official candidates states while Albania and Serbia have applied for membership. The EU plans to start accession negotiations with Montenegro in June 2012 if it continues its progress in fulfilling the Copenhagen Criteria. Bosnia and Herzegovina has concluded an association agreement and is preparing an application while Kosovo is beginning negotiations for an agreement.[citation needed] The Western Balkans have been prioritised for membership since emerging from war during the breakup of Yugoslavia; Turkey has been seeking membership since the 1980s and Iceland has lodged its application since suffering economic collapse in 2008.

The EU may also acquire new outermost regions in 2015 due to the integration of three Caribbean islands into the Netherlands following the dissolution of the Netherlands Antilles in 2010.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_the_European_Union#Future_enlargement

[Snake Alchemist]

51. Well that in itself is it's own immigration policy. nt

[pampango]

52. Agreed. And a good one, IMHO. n/t

[Edweird]

56. It's amusing how you cling to your dishonest comparison.

The best part is that there's NO WAY you don't know it's a lie - yet you catapult the propaganda relentlessly.

[pampango]

60. Comparing Europe and the US is dishonest? Is the US so different (exceptional) that

we can't learn anything from the experience of others?

There's no way that I don't know what is a lie - "that "people who work for a living" do a lot better in Europe with its freedom of movement than they do here with our jealously-guarded borders."? If you believe that workers have it better in the US than in Europe, well you are entitled to your opinion.

[Edweird]

65. Same old race to the bottom garbage. It's all completely dishonest.

Our (The United States of America) union of states with open borders pre-dates the EU's by 173 years. You are comparing the US to ONE state of the EU - that is inherently and intentionally dishonest and you know it. The fact of the matter is that the EU is an attempt to create a Western European version of the US.

[pampango]

67. I agree that the EU is a (liberal) attempt to create a European version of the US.

In the last 60 years historically sovereign countries have voluntarily surrendered some of their sovereignty to try to change their history of nationalism and conflict and create a continent of shared peace and prosperity. Thankfully, it has worked and the continent is a lot different now than it was in the first half of the 20th century.

If you want to minimize the tough decisions that historically nationalistic Germans and French (and other Europeans) had to make to open their borders to each other by comparing them to two US states trading with each other, be my guest.

Europeans did not eliminate borders and tariffs with each other in order to race to the bottom of anything. Nor was that the result. Indeed they did this at the same time that they were creating the progressive societies that exist there today.

They continue to open borders with neighboring countries as new countries join the Schengen Area. And these sovereign countries voluntarily give up some of their sovereignty to become part of this no-tariff, open-border zone. Again not in a race to the bottom of anything.

Europe has not become a "version of the US" just yet. It's a work in process. There's lots of resistance from "Eurosceptics" on the right with particular venom coming from the far-right. They want to bring back more nationalism along with tariffs and border controls.

[Confusious]

74. That's a fallacious argument

Saying they do better because of freedom of movement ignores the fact that they all have pretty much the same standard of living, and economic policies which favor the worker.

Your statement is equal to "Because Europe has had so many wars on it's soil, they do better, so we should have more civil wars." it's bullshit.

[pampango]

78. Three points. 1. At the same time progressive Europeans were building their progressive societies

after WWII, they were insuring freedom of movement between countries as well. They viewed, and still do, that freedom of movement is a part of a progressive continent.

2. Living standards are not as uniform in Europe as you might believe. Per capita income in Norway is $53,000, Germany $45,000, but in Poland it is $20,000, Bulgaria $13,500 and Latvia $11,000. (The US' per capita income is $47,000 and Mexico's is $16,000.)

3. I did not say that freedom of movement causes better conditions for workers. I said ""people who work for a living" do a lot better in Europe with its freedom of movement than they do here with our jealously-guarded borders."

In fact "people who work for a living" do a lot better in Europe than they do here. And there is freedom of movement there and jealously-guarded borders here. So my statement is correct. There may not be a direct relationship between progressive economic policies and freedom of movement. It may just be a coincidence, but progressives there apparently don't think so, because they don't want to give up either.

You said workers do better due to "economic policies which favor the worker." I agree with you. My point was that when progressives there created those economic policies they also created the freedom of movement that few Europeans (other than a few on the far right) want to do away with today.

The two - progressive economic policies and freedom of movement between countries - coexist nicely in Europe. Neither, of course - progressive economic policies or freedom of movement between countries - exists in the US. At the very least one can't say that freedom of movement between countries dooms "people who work for a living" to a poor life.

[Confusious]

80. 1.Movement between countries

didn't become so open until Just before the EU. So there was a lot of time to make those strides without open borders.

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/justice_freedom_security/free_movement_of_persons_asylum_immigration/l33152_en.htm

2.Norway is not a member state of the European Union (EU)

3. Disingenuous argument. You were inferring it, now you disclaim it. There was not such open movement until just before the EU.

"At the very least one can't say that freedom of movement between countries dooms "people who work for a living" to a poor life."

Yes you can, looking at the drop in wages caused by illegal immigration. When such a disparity of income exists between two countries, it will. China.... Whether you choose to believe the scientific studies and the evidence is the question. One above: $20 an hour for carpenters, $10 an hour now.

[hedgehog]

44. Both H1B Visa holders and Illegal immigrants tend to drive down

wages in the US. For me the difference is that many of the H1B visa holders are from the upper classes in their home countries. Many of them strike me as being "on the make" or at least as future Republicans! On the other hand, many of the illegals are here out of desperation. Some of them are solid people who will give a hand up to others. This is all wild exaggeration, of course. Some H1B visa holders are here because they're up against it at home. I've known illegals who were homophobes.

The only real solution is to enforce labor laws here and work for economic justice here and abroad!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

53. I'm not angry at either group but at the selfish employers who

are willing to throw their fellow citizens under the bus just for cheap, easily exploitable labor that won't complain about poor working conditions.

(The illegal workers can't complain, or the employer will call La Migra on his own workers. The H1-Bs can't complain because their visas are tied to a specific employer.)

[Snake Alchemist]

55. Doesn't that also apply to consumers who look for the best bargain

regardless of country of origin. That is how we got into this mess.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

71. But it's a vicious circle

Customers whose real earning power has dropped can afford only cheaper items.

[dkf]

68. If HB-1 visas went to the best and brightest in the world...

Who come to America to innovate and help create the new economy I welcome them.

Frankly we aren't educating our own well enough to keep us in a position of technological and engineering leadership.

That is what I see as the purpose of the visas. If used properly they will be a huge positive for us.

[gulliver]

69. This whole dynamic (H1-B, L-1, illegal immigration) could be changing.

Jobs now flow to where the people are, so maybe we want the people here instead of "there." I'm in IT, and I have been against H1-B and L-1 visas. But outsourcing changes the equation. Even H1-Bs and L-1s have to compete against outsourcing, for example.

A main reason H1-B, L-1, and "illegals" take less pay is that they are insecure in their citizenship path. If they were given a solid path to citizenship, the vast majority would take it. And they wouldn't be beholden to, let's say, "bargain hunters" who take advantage of their immigration status to shortchange them in wages. Somebody in IT who knows they can stay, easily change jobs, etc., is going to want more money.

Also, they would have to buy real estate, shop for goods, buy services, etc., right here in the good old USA. That's not to mention Social Security contributions, political power impacts, etc.

I don't know. It doesn't seem so obvious to me any more. I also understand from conversation with Indian IT workers that wages are on the rise in India as well--big time...so. The USA might be better off brain- and skill-draining our competitors. Bring all their good players over here.

[MH1]

70. Not really.

The resentment against H1B's is that the LAW is designed to lower wages. Corporations lobby to increase the allocations.

The resentment about immigration is the inhumanity that is used to enforce the law. Also, that people who are brought here as children are expected to "go home" to a home that doesn't exist.

I see lots of posts here that agree with me, that the companies who hire illegal immigrants should be punished. I support e-verify. If the jobs weren't here, people wouldn't risk their lives trying to get here.

At the same time, I have some compassion for people trying to escape difficult conditions in their home countries. We should do what we can as a nation to help those countries. But I'd rather people have opportunities in their home countries than have to go through what illegal immigrants do to come here.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

73. yes, i have

people are magnanimous when they feel the threat is to someone else, less magnanimous when they perceive a threat to themselves

[treestar]

75. H-1Bs are legally here

So it's never made sense to whine about it endlessly. Call Congress right fuckin' now and ask them to lower the numbers of them, or abolish them altogether, or to raise the standards. But the endless whining does nothing. They are legal and will therefore come.

Illegals are OTOH not supposed to be here and can be deported. Again, rather than talk about how horrible that is, call Congress right fuckin' now and demand more H-2s (seasonal workers, the types of jobs these immigrants do, but there limits on that category aren't high and they all get used). Or demand an amnesty. Frankly, that would just legalize the bunch here now and then a new bunch gets created. Why not find a way for them to be legal from the get go? But that takes a change in the law.

[NightTemplar]

77. easy answer.... by and large American youth are too fucking lazy

to get degrees in Math and Science so the business world imports Indian and Pakistani enginners.

[lumberjack_jeff]

79. Of course. It's classism.

People on the intertubes are vastly more likely to be concerned about foreigners taking tech jobs than "jobs americans won't do".

It's important to keep my programming job so I can continue to afford to buy cheap lettuce.

I think illegal immigrants should be given amnesty, but only if they volunteer for TFA.