CNBC: Moderna vaccine side effect: rheumatoid arthritis

[SheltieLover]

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/15/moderna-covid-vaccine-fatigue-headaches-and-muscle-pain-are-the-most-common-side-effects.html

"The FDA said there were seven “serious adverse events” in the trial, but none of them was fatal. Four were attributed to the vaccine by trial investigators and Moderna, including intractable nausea and vomiting, facial swelling and rheumatoid arthritis."

Has anyone else found this info anywhere?

I am very pro-vaccine, but will stand by my initial response to the concept of chumputin's coopted CDC & the resultant vaccine development & roll out: NOT HAPPENING HERE.

I will wait for Pfizer's vax! And drive to a sane state to get it, if need be.

TN is not planning to get anymore Pfizer vaccines! Only Moderna's. Coincidence? I think not.

I am well aware of the nightmare created by the Gulf War vaccines military personnel were forced to take & I will not be victimized by chumputin in this manner! 🤬

[still_one]

1. rheumatoid arthritis? that is a very weird SE

[TexasBushwhacker]

31. Not really

Rheumatoid arthritis is an auto-immune disease. A vaccine gets your immune system to attack a virus. Your immune system is a wonderful thing when it attacks the right thing.

[ProfessorGAC]

33. That's Exactly Why, 20+ Years Ago...

...I was told by my neurologist to NOT get the flu shot. (I have MS, incredibly well controlled.) They were worried about overstimulating the immune system.
A few years later, they had the data to show that doesn't happen, so then it was OK to take the yearly shot.
I went a few years avoiding it, but have gotten it every year since. They used to come to work to give the vax.

[TexasBushwhacker]

35. I have auto-immune thyroid disease

All things considered, I think I'll go with the Pfizer vaccine.

[ProfessorGAC]

40. I'll Take What's Available When My Number Comes Up

There's another post here saying that for the first handful of months, the vast majority of us won't have a choice.
Later next year, maybe, but not likely in the hear future.
The bar has been set. Twice! The other candidates better be highly efficacious with low side effects.
Assuming that's true, I'm willing to get what they have.

[Captain Zero]

2. Ok, take it, get R arthritis & then Supremes come back in the spring & rule Pre-Existing

Conditions are no longer covered.

Sounds about right.

[Initech]

3. What is the probability of getting this side effect?

I feel like that number is being under reported here. If they have 1,000 applicants and 7 of them get it, I would say that your odds of getting that particular side effect are slim to nil, right?

[Klaralven]

9. Trial had 30,000 participants, with half getting the vaccine and half the placebo

So for Bell's palsy, 3 in the vaccine group got it and 1 in the placebo group got it, for probabilities of 3/15000 and 1/15000 or 0.02% and 0.007% respectively.

Of course, with small numbers like 3 and 1, those estimates are very imprecise.

[PSPS]

14. That's an important note

The reason these Bell's Palsy numbers didn't cause much concern was because those numbers were about what you would expect in the population at large without any vaccine.

[USALiberal]

4. Really, you are sure that Pfizer's is 100% safe? Nt

[beachbumbob]

5. No vaccine is 100% safe,

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

24. Or, "no vaccine" is highly dangerous.

I'll take my chances with the vaccine.

[relayerbob]

8. Drinking water isn't 100% safe, lol

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

25. Yes, that's why beer was invented.

[ProfessorGAC]

34. Good One!

4.5% alcohol for a few hours! No gram negative bacteria, and a lot fewer viruses!

[relayerbob]

51. This

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

6. Rheumatoid arthritis is an auto-immune disease.

So a vaccine that triggers an auto-immune disease strikes me as problematical.

As the vaccines are given to more and more people, there are going to be many more side effects showing up. Anyone who thinks there won't be, just doesn't understand the difference between clinical trials and real-world application.

Please don't interpret that as an anti-vaccination statement. It's just observing the reality.

[LeftInTX]

38. Probably between a .013% or .003% chance

But RA is kinda sneaky....It isn't black or white....

Diagnosed via sed rates....which can come and go...the participant may have had high sed rates in the past that weren't picked up on office visits (Because not every healthy person in America has labs drawn with sed rates twice a year!) I don't remember having a sed rate done until I started seeing a rheumatologist.

Just a generic article I found...I don't know how reliable this source is, but doesn't make mention of sed rate in routine lab work.

(The participant or participants probably had sed rates done prior to the vaccine as part of the study and they were probably normal, but RA and all autoimmune stuff are kinda weird..so a normal sed rate in August 2020 does not mean someone did not have an abnormal sed rate a year ago)

https://betterhealthwhileaging.net/understanding-10-common-blood-tests-in-aging/

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

52. So if a hundred million Americans get that vaccine, how many will then get RA?

Yeah, I know that vaccines can have side effects, but one of the auto-immune disorders as a side effect?

What if the kind of vaccine this is triggers auto-immune disorders? Most of them are fairly nasty.

[LeftInTX]

57. Several thousand, (3,000) if it is a direct cause of RA

But auto-immune disorders can by asymptomatic and something that stimulates the immune system can cause them to develop symptoms. By the way catching Covid will stimulate the immune system and many of the problems associated with Covid are a caused by the immune system itself, hence Covid would have the same and worse side effects.

[AmericanCanuck]

59. It is not diagnosed with just sed rates

There are specific tests for RA.

Also, it is unheard of to develop RA after age 40 if one never had it. The risk is primarily in younger population.

Again, causation from the vaccine has not been determined - it could be coincidental too.

[LeftInTX]

60. Sed is the most common that would be in a routine lab

The rest like anti-nuclear antibodies are not commonly done except by rheumatologists

[AmericanCanuck]

61. Sed rate is like fever - non-specific

It only means there is inflammation in the body.

Rheumatoid Factor is a routine test and part of many panels.

Anti-nuclear antibodies are usually elevated in Lupus (SLE)

[relayerbob]

7. Paranoia doesn't help. Follow the science

The science is that the two vaccines are very similar molecularly, and side effect variations are going to be due to individual's variations. There is no way to predict which vaccine might have any given side effect on you are anyone else. The most extreme reactions are very rare. Trump and the CDC have virtually nothing to do with the vaccines and absolutely nothing to do with side effects. This tech has been in the works for a decade, and is it fast-tracked? Absolutely, because ventilators and 3500 people a day dying sucks more than the side effects.

[ansible]

26. It's hard to trust corporations where profit comes first

[MineralMan]

10. Every vaccine can cause side effects, and does.

Seven serious side effects in a pool of about 30,000 study participants comes to just 0.02%.

Insignificant, really, except to those seven people.

The odds are very much in your favor if you get vaccinated. They are less in your favor if you get sick from COVID-19. Use common sense, please.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

54. Then there will the side effects that only show up once every 50,000

or 100,000 vaccinations. People need to be aware that there will be more reports of side effects.

[MineralMan]

58. The odds. Life is all playing the odds.

I'm getting the vaccine. Better odds than not getting it. Simple.

[DrToast]

11. Very likely temporary

If it was permanent I think it would be bigger news.

[Ace Rothstein]

16. I don't think there is such a thing as temporary RA.

Last edited Fri Dec 18, 2020, 09:33 PM - Edit history (1)

RA is an unpleasant and life-shortening disease.

[Ms. Toad]

28. It has not been resolved -

per the FDA link provided below.

But autoimmune disorders triggered by vaccinations are not unknown: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5607155/

[DrToast]

32. Thanks for that

If I'm reading it correctly, it looks like 1 case of RA out of 15,000 in the vaccine arm. A 0.007% rate.

Also:

The possibility that the vaccine contributed to the SAE reports of rheumatoid arthritis, peripheral edema/dyspnea with exertion, and autonomic dysfunction cannot be excluded.

The patient was 57 years old, so it doesn't sound like it's certain that it was caused by the vaccine.

[cally]

12. One of the people who didn't want to proceed with the Pfizer vaccine

On FDA advisory board alluded to wanting more info on something similar. I plan to still take the vaccine but I do not dismiss your concerns

[Renew Deal]

13. Does that mean more rheumatoid arthritis ads?

[Turin_C3PO]

15. I recommend

getting whichever vaccine you can get faster. Moderna’s is just as safe as Pfizer’s.

[BannonsLiver]

17. It's starting to get real kooky around here with the vaccine stuff.

I can only imagine what it will be like in a few months.

[Iggo]

49. I'm pro-vaccine, but...

That’s how it starts.

[BannonsLiver]

55. Yes. You're right. We have a lot of pseudo experts.

And many alarmists. Not talking about the OP but rather some in the thread.

[StarryNite]

18. There are still so many unknowns with the disease and the vaccines.

We live in very scary times.

[Ace Rothstein]

19. My wife got RA like 6 weeks after we got a flurry of vaccines before going to Brazil.

Her rheumatologist thinks she would have gotten it later in life but the vaccines kicked it out sooner.

[Strelnikov_]

22. Interesting. Thanks for the info n/t

[LeftInTX]

39. She probably was gonna get it

RA is kinda complicated...If she wasn't having sed rates drawn regularly prior to getting diagnosed, there is really no way of knowing. You can have abnormal sed rates and can feel just fine. You can have normal sed rates after having abnormal sed rates.

[Chakaconcarne]

20. Here is a link to VRBPAC from yesterday

https://www.fda.gov/media/144434/download

[Ms. Toad]

27. That is helpful.

The person who was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis had a pre-existing condition of hypothyroidism (the most common of which is Hashimotos - an autoimmune disorder). The report doesn't designate the person's hypothyroidism as Hashimoto's - but most are just treated, without being specifically diagnosed since the treatment is the same, regardess of the cause.) (I have Hashimoto's - my father was only diagnosed with hypothyroidsim, with the assumption being it is Hashimoto's.)

Most autoimmune disorders involve a genetic predisposition + an environmental trigger, and the truism is that if you have one autoimmune disorder, you may well develop more (about 25% do).

This person may well have been predisposed to develop another autoimmune disorder - which was triggered by the vaccine.

That's one of the reasons I avoid influenza vaccinations - I don't need my already overactive immune system sent into overdrive by the adjuvants that are frequently used to enhance the immune response when I rarely get influenza, and it is not a particularly risky disease for me when I do get it. That said, the calculation is significantly different for COVID 19 - which is far more deadly (both personally and societally), and far more contagious. Even if it is established that there is a miniscule risk of being an environmental trigger for another autoimmune disorder, that risk is very small compared to the personal and societal risk of not being vaccinated.

[ProfessorGAC]

37. I Have MS, And...

...a very mild case of RA, both in very deep remission.
My doctors both agreed that having MS led to conditions for the formation of another AIm malady.

[Ms. Toad]

42. I know an incredibly large number of people with MS -

Starting with a member of the church I grew up in (who's been living with it since ~1966), the wife of a judge I worked for, my brother-in-law, two cousins, two members of my church LGBTQ group and about a dozen more I'm less closely connnected with.

The ones I listed I'm close enough to that I would have known about as a matter of course - the dozen or so more are largely people who shared the information because I've ridden in about 20 MS-150 bike rides. (Hoping to do one more - I had to drop out because of cancer, followed by a spiral fracture in my leg, and now COVID. I really want to stop riding on my own accord.)

It's such a destructive disease - for some, a chronic unwelcome pest for others, and pretty much everything in between. I hope yours stays in deep remission.

[ProfessorGAC]

44. Thanks!

I'm permanently blind in the middle 20% of my left eye, and my feet always burn a little bit.
But, that's pretty much it.
Unchanged for 25 years.
I had an uncle who got it a little after your church friend. But, it hit him like a ton of bricks. In a wheelchair inside of 30 months.
I that last few years, he had bad purpose tremors.
My version is nothing compared to what he went through.

[Ms. Toad]

45. My church friend was in a wheelchair in less than 30 months (probably less than 6) -

With several small children to tend to. We didn't expect her to last long - as quickly as she went downhill after diagnosis. She's now in her 70s or 80s, and about to move to another state to be closer to her daughter and grandkids. Her decline at this point is as much due to age as it is to MS.

My brother-in-law was diagnosed perhaps a decade ago and, aside from being granted permission to work from home and getting injections on a regular basis, it doesn't seem to impact his life much.

[ProfessorGAC]

46. Very Similar!

Wasn't much they could do to arrest back then. Basically one hoped for the best.
Treatments are much better since the late 80s.
The med I was on was 6 or 7 years old when I started taking it middle of 1996.
30 years before? Not so much.

[Ms. Toad]

47. Agreed -

I started riding in MS rides in '93, and the effective treatments were relatively new at the time, from the chatter among the people with MS who rode or were part of rider support teams.

[LeftInTX]

41. Thanks for this...

[Chakaconcarne]

21. What about efficacy?

The trials have demonstrated short term (2 months) safety.....but, I don't think efficacy is going to end up being as high as they claim. Have they ruled out handwashing, social distancing and the use of masks by volunteers during the 2 months they've established efficacy? Are these volunteers most likely to be in urban areas with stringent lockdowns? They cannot tell people to not wear masks, not socially distance, etc. during trials. I'm real curious to see if they tracked any of this.

I haven't been able to find the study designs to see if these have been controlled for.

They did the same with flu vaccine, claiming a higher efficacy but can't control for handwashing and other disease spreading prevention people might practice (or simply exposure), which I believe is why we don't see high efficacy of flu vaccine even during years when they match. The mantra is "well something is better than nothing".

I'm not advocating against the vaccine, but these are the sort of things we don't always hear or know. They get buried by the headlines of "95% efficacy" and then there's a mad push to get everyone vaccinated before we actually know if it's working... We always find out 6 months in after millions of people have already been vaccinated for flu, whether it was effective or not. 8/10 years it doesn't match... I would just like to be a little better informed going into this and I'm sure this isn't a cheap exercise.

If anyone happens to find the study design and would post it, that would be awesome. I'll keep looking.

[NightWatcher]

23. Ha! Already have RA ( and lupus and myositis and....)

[LeftInTX]

30. Could exacerbate it, talk to your doctor, maybe get an extra dose of what you take to manage RA

[LeftInTX]

29. .013% and of those only one probably developed RA which gives it .003% chance

or 1/30,000, but RA is kinda sneaky, so I'm inclined to believe this person was probably gonna develop RA anyway. This person probably would have had a bad autoimmune response to Covid, because RA is an immune response and many complications from Covid are due to an overactive immune system.

[cwydro]

36. All righty then!

Good for you!

[Dem2]

43. Not particularly helpful

So you're gonna wait. Cool, don't blame you. And now many more will because of this post.

[flotsam]

48. This about VAERS

"Many medical researchers make use of VAERS to study the effects of vaccination. VAERS warns researchers using its database that the data should not be used in isolation to draw conclusions about cause and effect.[5] Nonetheless, data from VAERS has been used in vaccine litigation to support the claim that vaccines cause autism.

Litigation related to vaccines and autism has led to an increase in VAERS reports filed by plaintiff's attorneys. A 2006 article in Pediatrics found that most VAERS reports related to thimerosal, and many related to autism, were filed in connection with litigation, leading the authors to caution that inappropriate reliance on VAERS data may be a source of bias.[10] The study's lead author stated: "Lawyers are manipulating this system to show increases [in vaccine-related adverse events] that are based on litigation, not health research."[11] Paul Offit, chief of infectious disease at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, wrote:

Public health officials were disappointed to learn that reports of autism to VAERS weren't coming from parents, doctors, nurses, or nurse practitioners; they were coming from personal-injury lawyers ... For the lawyers, VAERS reports hadn't been a self-fulfilling prophecy; they'd been a self-generated prophecy."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_Adverse_Event_Reporting_System

[Journeyman]

50. Fortunately, RA *is* a condition that can be treated with hydroxychloroquine . . .

[LisaL]

53. And we sure got lots of that laying around.

NT

[Calculating]

56. Ok, and what are the chances of side effects from covid?

There's no real option here, you'll either get the vaccine or you will get covid at some point. I think I trust my body to science more than some mysterious new virus.