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Mon Feb 15, 2021, 10:43 PM

Where do you fall on the scale if falling for trickle down economics?

Last edited Wed Feb 17, 2021, 10:44 AM - Edit history (3)

I was taught economics in University Nova Scotia and did not question the idea that we could not sustain too much debt. It was in all the news when i was in high school. I admired Chretien and Clinton's fights to tame that beast. I was never for tax cuts. Supply side was explained to me as aggregate supply curb being bent, not trickle down which i never believed. My older brother, at school in the United States, was given Ayn Rand to read and was a conservative for all of three weeks (he had not had a girlfriend yet which is pertinent to liking Ayn Rand). Within that window, he was brought to dinner by friends with Arthur Laffer who told of his napkin trick. My brother soon converted his friends to Liberalism. I was for negative income tax (basic income) and robust social programs always. As a canadian from a medical family i am for public health care always. My grandfather practiced socialized medicine in his rural community before it was law for 50 years. My grandmother ran the farm so that people would have options to help out instead of paying cash. Mostly they just left what was owed by the poor on the books and ignored it. My great grandfather was a Liberal politician in ottawa who introduced income tax to Parliament (Union Government). My dad was a Liberal fundraiser who held teas for wealthy Liberal ladies to get their support for the party in the 1970s. He was a Trucking Trade Association guy. When a Transportation of Dangerous Goods Law was being negotiated in Ottawa my dad supported the regulations at some point, breaking with his Truckers (who were influenced a great deal by the American Trucking Association). His truckers pulled the funding for his Association in anger. My dad put his own money into publishing a handbook on the new laws for Truckers and Management. He put his own money into payroll. The truckers needed that information and forgave him. Besides he was well informed because he took the bus to work from a senior civil service neighbourhood and talked to the senior civil servants on the bus about government plans and knew what was up before anyone outside of government. The propaganda on debt was heavy in Ottawa. So too in my high school our history teacher told us the US Civil War was not fought against slavery. Seems Canada was in GOP plans. My first election i voted for Conservative Brian Mulrooney as i was worried about debt. All subsequent elections I have voted for the Liberals or the NDP. I supported Buttigieg, Biden, Bernie, Biden this past election season. I'm with Krugman's thinking that there are factors, like people buying stuff that comes from overseas, that keep inflation way lower. That more debt can be sustained. And i think there is room to share that windfall, that went to the wealthy with tax breaks and a window to bring foreign profits home, with workers by aggressively promoting unions and minimum wage hikes. And a war on poverty. And infrastructure spending. Etc. And all the policy tools that are cutting edge and were ignored under Trump.

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Response to applegrove (Original post)

Mon Feb 15, 2021, 10:53 PM

1. I had grandparents in Maryland who would have liked your grandpa. They had a large feed and supply..

company, kind like Agway, and during the Depression gave everyone credit, saying "We're in this together, and as long as I've got anything, your credit is good." War broke out, everyone started making money again, and they never collected from the really down and out.

They were well-loved, and even their actions against Jim Crow were accepted.

And they were Republicans. Lincoln Republicans.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 15, 2021, 11:08 PM

3. Character was a thing back then. Religion was about love. My grandfather

Last edited Wed Feb 17, 2021, 10:57 AM - Edit history (1)

was at a town meeting one time and an indigenous man blurted out "you are a good man Dr. Chisholm, you are a good man". (Or something like it). He died in 1948 so i never met him. But most people did not have much. My mom was so proud if them and their work that she donated the property she and her sister had inherited from him, some forests he bought, they donated it to the rural presbyterian church where the farm was. My mom had moved away from there 57 years earlier. I think everyone learned from the Depression. Your grandparents sound darling. Needless to say the locals were very good to my grandparents right back. When my grandmother was 86 we went back to the village and needless to say the house was full of 60 to 80 people who came to see her at an 'at home'. Those people know community.

* character was a thing back then: racism, sexism, anti-semitism and homophobia of the society at large aside. Indeed the closest town to the farm was where Canada's Rosa Parks, Viola Desmond, was dragged screaming from a movie theatre in 1946 for not paying the difference on the tax on the movie ticket, to the more expensive "white" section she insisted on sitting in, and being put in jail for that. I think it came to a penny difference. Nova Scotia has been rectifying this for the last decade, 50 years after her death, and she is now on the $10 bill.

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Response to applegrove (Original post)

Mon Feb 15, 2021, 11:04 PM

2. "Trickle down" imo always means the ultra rich & powerful pissing down on everyone else

I apologize for being rude and crude, but the first time I ever heard the phrase that is the image that came to me and in all the decades since I have not changed my mind.


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Response to Hekate (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 15, 2021, 11:19 PM

5. No apologies necessary

My grandmother died a week before I was born. Lung cancer. She was 46 and worked in a brickworks.

Her son, my dad did an apprenticeship in the Clyde Shipyards. When I was old enough to vote he told me that ANYONE who works for a wage should never vote conservative. (He probably said fucking tory!)

My first vote was in 1972 - for the admirable Gough Whitlam who brought universal health care to Australia.

Since then, I've seen the erosion of the working class and their backstop - the trade union. Good, honest, talented people live on a pittance because they are not 'entrepreneurs'. Cheating other people has become somehow honourable because scamming someone somehow equates to being a 'smarter' person than the honest, law abiding worker.

Oops im getting carried away, but you know what I mean....

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Response to canetoad (Reply #5)

Mon Feb 15, 2021, 11:21 PM

6. Yes. Trickle down is legalized corruption.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 15, 2021, 11:25 PM

7. Right on.

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Response to applegrove (Original post)

Mon Feb 15, 2021, 11:16 PM

4. I grew up in an area of salt-water bays and inlets. Tides were a thing people kept track of.

One thing I connected to politics early on:

No tide rises from the top down.

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Response to applegrove (Original post)

Tue Feb 16, 2021, 12:39 AM

8. I call it trickle up economics

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Response to applegrove (Original post)

Tue Feb 16, 2021, 12:45 AM

9. Republicans here constantly fight for established wealth.

Higher national debt could eventually result in inflation or higher taxes on wealth, neither of which they approve because of the erosion of the real value of wealth.

They don't care if higher wage rates outpaces inflation either. They're not fighting for the "little people" who actually use their labor (instead of capital) for income.

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Response to applegrove (Original post)

Tue Feb 16, 2021, 01:40 AM

11. Means we the people get $7.50 an hour, while they, the rich bastards, steal billions.

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