Have you ever just had a "feeling" about someone that you could not really explain but that

[Atticus]

somehow prevented you from accepting them as one of the "good guys"?

I felt that way about J. D. Vance from the get-go.

I saw him interviewed about his best-selling book and, I don't know why, but something about his voice, his appearance, his facial expressions just flashed "TILT" across my consciousness. I actually got that little clinch of anger in my gut as I subliminally judged him to be a dangerous fraud: NOT "one of us".

Goofy?

Maybe, but the instinct served me well.

[dewsgirl]

1. Yes, I've had that with a few people throughout my life,

I was right every time. Of course OTOH I've met people and should have got that feeling and unfortunately didn't.

[Jim G.]

2. Yes

When I was much younger I found that whenever I ignored my initial impression of someone invariably it turned out my "gut feeling" was absolutely correct.

[no_hypocrisy]

3. Most prominently -- and perhaps tragically -- my father.

He looked good "on paper." Respected physician in the community. Dressed in Brooks Brothers suits. Member of the exclusive Tuxedo Club. Read Wodehouse, Amis, and other 20th century British authors. Intellectual. Played golf and court tennis. Drove a Jaguar.

But totally out of touch with everyone including our family. You might say he grew too big for his britches.

I could discern there was something "wrong" before I was 10. Disturbingly wrong. It was more than he was republican and loved Nixon. I listened carefully to what he said, what he didn't say. And I felt a combination of unease and apprehension/fear.

To my dismay, I seemed to be the only one who could see beneath the veneer. Maybe my mother to a lesser extent.

I hope Ohio has enough political will to deny Vance a slot during the primary next year.

[Polly Hennessey]

18. Perfect on the outside but the inside

devoid of feelings. Yes, we are often fooled by the veneer of perfection.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

4. Uh, it didn't take a seer to know that Vance was a fraud from day one.

[milestogo]

5. Whats even worse is when you see a friend or loved one marrying that person.

You know its going to be bad, but they have to figure it out for themselves.

[JustAnotherGen]

6. He is a

Fraud

[Pinback]

7. Somebody gave me a copy of his book.

Couldn't get past the bookflap copy.

It's lying around here somewhere. I'm reluctant to donate it anywhere, lest it corrupt innocent minds. I may just tear it up and recycle it, though it greatly pains me to destroy a book.

I guess i could cut out a section through the center of the pages and stash some contraband in there -- I don't indulge in contraband, though.

[Maraya1969]

13. Could you rip out the pages and put them in the recycling? I've actually wondered

that because I had a book like that that I didn't want to pollute anyone's mind. I actually cannot remember what I did with it but I wanted to put it in the recycle bin

[Pinback]

44. I guess another possibility would be to substitute for a broken couch leg.

You'd just want to place it where nobody can read the spine.

The Vance book isn't as bad as many others, of course. After my father died, I went through his bookshelf. Somebody had actually given him a book by Ann Coulter! (Blecch.) To his credit, I don't think he ever read it -- he was conservative, but not an idiot.

I did rip up the Coulter book and put it in the trash. It was a weird feeling, because in general I revere books. They're almost sacred artifacts to me (much to my wife's dismay!). But Ann Coulter? *shudder* I got rid of it as fast as I could.

[KS Toronado]

17. You could store your rock hammer in it.

[Pinback]

45. Yep - Get busy livin', or get busy dyin'

[KS Toronado]

47. My favorite line in the movie.......

was when Red said "Andy you can't just make a person up", and a lot of that is on account
of Morgan's Freeman's facial expression.

[S/V Loner]

8. All the time and my instincts....

always prove to be right. Sometimes something just seems off to me about the person no matter what others think.

[patricia92243]

9. Bill Cosby. Way baaack when, I would never be able to

say why, but I always felt a revulsion. I had never even heard of sexual harassment.

[lark]

10. Watch out when you start dreaming about them.

Dreams tell the truth sometimes, I have had 2 prescient dreams in my life. Both times I knew something was different. The first time, when i was around 10 I dreamed about my new step granddad. I dreamed he was chasing my cousin Linda, trying to hurt her and she was hiding and afraid. Then it switched and I was talking to a different cousin who was telling me that this new guy was a rotten apple and not to let him get me alone under any circumstances. Yep, we found out years later that he was a registered child molester and had killed Linda's dog when the dog attacked trying to protect Linda from his advances and her screaming. Before the family figured this out, he was always trying to get me to go somewhere alone with him, I always said no. One time he wanted to buy me a bathing suit, my mom was so outraged. That's when they really started investigating and found out the sordid truth. They should have listened to my dreams, five years before that.

[MoonRiver]

11. Yes I have. Police call it a "hinky" feeling.

[2naSalit]

12. Quite often.

It serves me well.

[ananda]

14. No. I felt the same way about Trump the first time I saw him..

maybe in the 80's. I never liked him.

When I saw Peter Sellars' Marriage of Figaro set in
Trump Tower, I could see both the aptness and the
irony. That was a great show!

ps. That was Peter Sellars the opera director, not
the movie star.

[Marthe48]

15. I learned to listen to my gut

but also to give each new person a chance. I guess that is reserving judgement

[TNNurse]

16. I am grateful for those who told me to never read the book.

They said it was fraudulent and essentially crap. They were also southern women who were college literature professors.

[Cousin Dupree]

19. I didn't go with my gut feeling recently, and I went ahead and

allowed myself to get talked into doing something. It turned into a shit show. Learned my lesson. AGAIN.

[Demovictory9]

20. From wikipedia

Vance believes in "the conservative way of life that values grit, determination, and freedom" and that "economic and government leaders conspire to make life harder for normal Americans." He references American "livelihoods devastated by job loss, addiction, economic turmoil."[31]

During the 2016 election, Vance was critical of Republican Party nominee Donald Trump. In a column in USA Today in February 2016, Vance wrote that "Trump’s actual policy proposals, such as they are, range from immoral to absurd."[32] In October 2016, he described Trump as "reprehensible" in a post on Twitter.[33] He also stated his intentions to vote for independent presidential candidate Evan McMullin.[33] Vance later deleted these posts from his Twitter account and apologized for his criticism of Trump in July 2021, ahead of his candidacy for United States Senate. He reversed his earlier statements on Trump, saying that he thought Trump was a good president and expressing regret about his statements during the 2016 election.[33] Vance visited Mar-a-Lago to meet with former President Donald Trump, alongside Peter Thiel, ahead of an official announcement.[

[rainin]

21. Wow! My go-to response is "carrot or stick?"

Was he threatened or seduced? I believe his earlier statements were sincere. Someone got to him. IMHO

[GulfCoast66]

51. No. Realized he was missing out on the largest grift ever.

There’s money to be made off the rubes.

[rainin]

57. Seduced, then. n/t

[Captain Zero]

34. So he understands the exploitation of Americans,

And he has decided to join the side of the exploiters.

That really sums him up.

[raccoon]

22. What is TILT? Nt

[BlueKentuckyGirl]

23. Yes. What IS TILT?

[Midnight Writer]

27. TILT is from pinball machines. If you shake the machine too hard, it shuts down and says TILT.

[raccoon]

28. Thanks. Nt

[BlueKentuckyGirl]

24. Yes. What IS TILT?

[Midnight Writer]

26. TILT is from pinball machines. If you shake the machine too hard, it shuts down and says TILT.

[Captain Zero]

35. Is everybody asking about Tilt under 35?

Just wondering.

[Midnight Writer]

36. I still play pinball simulations everyday on my computer. I've been an addict since grade school.

[Pinback]

46. Means the same as "PC Load Letter."

Wait, probably nobody under 35 gets that, either.

[BlueKentuckyGirl]

58. No, not under 35

I know what "tilt" means when it comes to pinball machines, but I guess I just didn't see how that applies to JD Vance. Not defending JD Vance; I just don't get the analogy.

[Midnight Writer]

25. All my life. I have learned to trust that "feeling". It usually is right.

[blueinredohio]

29. Lots of times.

[Hortensis]

30. I haven't read the book and maybe saw Vance once on TV

without examining him. So I didnt have exposure that might have lead to similar feelings. My casual assumption, based more on the accolades for his book, was that Vance was a thoughtful and observant conservative, seeming moderate.

Fwiw, this thread reminds me that truth brings both conservatives and liberals who value truth, or are currently in a field or society that generally requires adherence to it, together in agreement about many things. There's usually large and strong overlap of agreement based on facts, in spite of disagreements that arise from different interpretations of what it all means and what should be done. And those disagreements are usually also constrained by facts from getting too extreme.

But, during this swamp of an era, I've many times seen, we all have, public figures change from expressing beliefs anchored in truth to lies intended to advance their ambitions by deceiving others Obviously, those who do weren't people of integrity to begin with, had just been posing as whatever was required for people in their previous situations.

Vance is apparently one of those. But whatever he was, he still is. What he says to advance his goals is the only thing that's changed. And there's a lesson for evaluating all public figures in that. Who's the real person behind the words that sound to appealing?

[GoneOffShore]

41. Every interview, every piece on him, everything he wrote for the NYTimes, rang alarm bells with me.

All I could think was walks like a duck, talks like a duck, but is trying to fool people that he's something else. He is definitely a duck.

[Hortensis]

43. Well, you've paid a lot of attention. I imagine, especially given

what we now know him to be capable of, that I'd also have seen that he wasn't just expressing a reasonable -- and valid as far as it goes -- conservative view into people born into intractable poverty but instead pushing a dressed-up version of primitive RW dogma.

I've seen that attitude that admits no excuses for their condition in conservatives who've always been poor, btw. It all comes back to the ages-old, and strongly hierarchical, belief in a powerful and good natural order that rewards the deserving and punishes the undeserving.

[GoneOffShore]

48. Vance is a product of Calvinist thinking. If you're poor, you deserve to be poor. If you're rich?

You deserve to be.

And unless you knuckle under, and kiss the ring, you're not going to get any help.

[Hortensis]

49. Yup. That's it. I remember how shocked I was when I realized

a friend believed a big business held NO repsonsibililty, zero liability, for knowingly and repeatedly selling a dangerous product that caused injury to many while being put to its intended use. It was the duty of the unaware purchasers, lower on the societal hierarchy than a biig corporation, to realize and avoid injury. Injury proved the victims' negligence. She wasn't a stupid woman, either.

[Blue_true]

55. Pretty much how I felt about him. nt

[Blue_true]

54. I listened to him once and Ref news article excerpts from his book.

He had a “blame liberals” tone to him and his writing. I never trusted him and saw no need to read his book.

[smirkymonkey]

31. Yes. From the time I was a child and it has always

served me well. And I definitely had that feeling about this guy, and many others on that side of the fence. It’s so obvious to me when someone is a phony or a horrible person, I am always baffled when other people can’t see it.

[JohnnyRingo]

32. Dog sense.

...and my ears went back on Vance as well.

[txwhitedove]

38. Love this description. I've had that all my life, right down to cock the head and stare.

[cilla4progress]

33. I do -

but did not, on Vance!

Bought it hook, line and sinker!

Movie was crap, tho!

[Hugin]

37. I don't even know...

who the fuck J.D. Vance is.

I'd like to keep it that way.

[samnsara]

39. i used to educate kids about good touch and bad touch and we always made sure they

..trusted that 'uh oh' feeling in their stomach

[wnylib]

40. Sure, I have had gut feelings like that.

I think everyone does at one time or another. We often dismiss those feelings, then later, when things go wrong, we say, "I knew better. Why didn't I follow my instincts?"

I think those feelings come from clues so minor that it's as if they are subliminal - the way someone blinks at certain times, or smiles, or their voice tone, etc. The smile does not extend to their eyes, for example, but we don't consciously notice the eyes. We just feel that something is "off."

We carry memories of minor past details and nuances from experiences with people that we don't consciously register, but that influence our impressions of new people that we meet.

Sometimes those gut feelings are positive, too. In the 2008 primaries, I didn't know much about Barack Obama until I saw him with Jay Leno on the Tonight Show. Something in his voice, words, or body language told me that he had "it" - a quality of leadership so innate that it said "presidential" to me. I just knew that he had what it took to not only win the general election, but to be a very good president. In her book, Becoming, Michelle describes how people have often reacted to him that way, just "knowing" that he had sone special qualities.

On a lighter note, animals have those instincts, too. I had a cat once, named Merlin, who took either an instant like or dislike to guys I dated, and showed it. Some guys would fuss over him to score points with me. Merlin reacted to their phoniness with a hiss and a swipe at their hands when they petted him, drawing blood with his claws. Merlin's judgments were always on the mark. I joked that he was my chaperone.

[jaxexpat]

42. I remember as a child having a visceral response when someone wasn't quite right.

It was a sort of an internal quivering which worked out through the skin often leaving chill bumps. Very short lived and vague but always portended when someone was trying to pull the wool over my eyes. The syrupy sweetness of overcoddling falsity, the overexuberance and sickly vivacity of pretentiousness, revealing deeply felt shallow feelings or the overconfident tone of a braggart would usually trigger the response. It pretty much disappeared by the time I was 7 or so. Was most prevalent at 3-4. My sister had much the same responses. We called them the "stupid shivers" since we both thought they were lies which we, at our tender ages, saw as simply stupid. We even got them sometimes watching commercials or the news on TV but the soppy melodrama of "Father Knows Best" was a sure fire source for them.

[Skittles]

50. Bill Cosby is a prime example

I always found him creepy and not at ALL funny.

[Blue_true]

53. I viewed him as a hiding right winger right out of the gate.

There was just telltale things that he said during the past.

[Iggo]

56. Yes. I'm human.