Just saw a report on CNN, (not verified), where Senior Afghan officials are joining the Taliban

[JohnSJ]

ranks in Herat

If this is an accurate account, and it is a trend, this only reinforces that Biden's decision to withdraw was needed. Yes, the operation of evacuating Americans and allies out of the country was very flawed, and hopefully will be rectified by sending troops back to facilitate the evacuation, and we can finally put this behind us

[malaise]

1. The US and its allies should never have been there in the first place

The money shouldhave been used for health care at home so that ordinary folks wouldn't need GoFUndMe to finance basic health care and funerals.

In the end people are instinctively going to support their own despots over despots from outside.

[zuul]

6. +1,000

[maxsolomon]

7. I'm going to keep asking this question of posts that say

we "should never have been there in the first place", because it seems binary.

Do you mean the US should not have acted with force against Al Qaeda in Afghanistan in the wake of 9/11?

[malaise]

10. If foreign policy wasn't directed by big oil, MIC and the other vested interests

there would never have been an Al Qaeda or a 9/11.
And never forget who overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran way back when.
The entire mess was created by greedy self interested Western powers.

[zuul]

16. Yes! And did the MIC and the US military protect us on 9-11? No!

Did they protect us from the enemy within on January 6? No!

Those two events were the greatest threats to the US in my lifetime. And all of our military expertise and weaponry failed us.

All the money wasted over the decades on killing people in the Middle East, as well as our own soldiers, accomplished what exactly? Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein are dead. Yay!

But was it worth all the death and destruction to kill two evil men? With all of our intelligence capabilities, those 2 assholes could surely have been taken out without killing thousands of people. And why did we try to foist democracy on a population that didn't understand it and didn't want it, for 20 fucking years?

Bin Laden was killed (in Pakistan, by the way) by a small elite team. Yes, Afghanistan was shielding him at first and granted, he was found with the help of multiple sources in both Afghanistan and Pakistan. But any reasonable person has to wonder if it could have been accomplished without killing thousands of people.

I would rather that money go to helping people in the US. We have a shitty health care system, an unequal educational system, and extensive poverty and homelessness. And yet we are supposed to be the 'greatest' nation. We are great at blowing shit up and killing people, not so great at caring for people.

[maxsolomon]

32. So, yes?

I consider the US complicit for the creation of the Taliban, as we funded and armed their precursor, the Mujahadeen, where OBL honed his skills.

It's a complicated mess, to be sure. Everything is grey areas; there is no black or white.

[malaise]

36. Absolutely true re the Mujahadeen

and you are also correct re a complicated mess, but it a mess created by Western powers.

[Javaman]

37. we also abandoned the Mujahideen after we gave them arms to fight the russians

but left them to suffer immeasurably afterwards.

this is what caused bin laden to get pissed at us.

Also the FBI never had a direct link to bin laden's involvement with 9/11

we attacked Iraq and Afghanistan and left Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran virtually untouched. Who were known to support and give harbor to known terrorists involved in 9/11

Iraq and Afghanistan were wars of opportunity to make money for the wealthy not to win anything.

all those pallets of money vanishing into thin air. nothing but a grand case of money laundering.

wars are great for that.

[malaise]

38. Correct as maxsolomon pointed out

replying to me above

[Devil Child]

13. I am of firm belief that destruction of Al Qaeda in Afghanistan was attainable

Without the full-fledged invasion and occupation of the country.

We chose to fight the wrong type of long-war.

So I guess I disagree with "should never have been there in the first place" but dream of different choices being made at the start.

[JohnSJ]

19. We killed bin Laden without a full-fledged invasion of Pakistan

[Devil Child]

20. Exactly n/t

[zuul]

29. Yes! So it does seem possible to target one man, or even several men,

without killing thousands of innocent people.

[maxsolomon]

34. "We" chose to invade Iraq as well.

"We" is world-historical war criminal GWB.

[Devil Child]

35. Yes n/t

[JohnSJ]

42. Iraq was based on a lie, and was one of the worst foreign policy adventures we engaged in since

Viet Nam

[maxsolomon]

44. Worse in some ways.

100% voluntary, 100% blunder.

I'm still furious about it.

[JohnSJ]

46. you are right, and it destabilized the entire middle east

[littlemissmartypants]

3. Let's not forget that TFG started this withdrawal. The onus isn't entirely President Biden's. eom

[BeyondGeography]

4. Biden obviously got bad intel

His reassuring statements about the Afghan govt. from last month are being thrown in his face right now.

Knowing Biden, he will take the heat but I hope he derails some careers behind the scenes.

[maxsolomon]

9. Oh, I think they knew.

But there was never going to be a better time.

Actually, the start of winter might have been a better time.

[BeyondGeography]

12. They always know at some level

But then they get in a room and tell Presidents what they think they want to hear.

There’s an argument that now was the worst time. Summer is always high season for the Taliban; they spend winters in Pakistan. Biden can point to the May 1 Trump agreement deadline as cover but no one will care. He will suffer needlessly politically for this IMO.

[David__77]

14. Who would "the heat" be from?

Not the Republicans in general- Trump advocated a quick pullout. Not from many Democrats who favored and still favor withdrawal. I think there are some pundits who don’t like it- not sure masses of voters want troops at risk in that country.

[BeyondGeography]

15. There's a 9/11 20th anniversary media shitstorm on the way, don't kid yourself

Doesn’t take much imagination to see how fighting off the Taliban in Kabul and/or begging them to leave our embassy alone is going to play next month when it will be terra-fetish time on the TV.

[David__77]

17. I think "we were there too long" would be effective.

Not saying I agree with it- I think this would be effective:

For many years our soldiers paid the ultimate price, it was now time to come home.

We have to invest at home and take care of our people.

[malaise]

39. Paid for my MIC, Big oi and who else?

Fugg em - Biden was correct

[Devil Child]

24. MIC and pundit class wanted us there forever.

That the only source of "heat" for staying in Afghanistan I can see.

[JohnSJ]

43. I think so

[Johnny2X2X]

5. Agree

They were just playing the US the whole time. We should have collected all the weapons we gave them on the way out. They never wanted anything but the Taliban.

And I think the US anticipated this and has been prepared to deal with the Taliban for some time.

[zuul]

8. If senior Afghan officials are joining the Taliban

they may just be trying to survive.

[malaise]

11. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Kind of like ReTHUGs joining the Slobfather's militia.

[SoonerPride]

18. It is clear we want democracy and liberation for them more than they do.

They have the training and weaponry and are making a choice.

It is not the choice we want.

They do not value the things we value.

We want it more than they do.

[malaise]

23. We who?

Backed by a whole lot of big money and the vast majority of the ReTHUG party, the last US president tried to overturn the election results in the US. He still thinks he is president.

[SoonerPride]

26. We the American army. It was a mistake to go and a mistake to stay for 20 years

Leaving is the only sensible option.

It is clear the Afghans don't value what Americans (supposedly) value.

[malaise]

28. I agree with Biden 100%

Stop looting the treasury for vested interests who don't gie a flying fuck about democracy at home or abroad. What's more - it was never about democracy

[snowybirdie]

21. This is, and always was,

A tribal society. Nothing has changed, no western culture has been able to change these primitive people. No matter how we tried, women will remain subservient and second class. I hate it, but its just awful reality. After 20 years of us trying, we never changed their hearts and minds. We need to focus on ourselves now.

[alphafemale]

22. Yeah. Screw it.

How easily do you think a few thousand fighters could overtake a city of millions in America?

And families would surrender their 8 year old daughters to be raped by 60 year old men?

They do not want our liberation and this is the life they want.

[Rustyeye77]

30. Wow... just wow

[alphafemale]

41. Exactly how many pounds of other people's flesh to you suggest be thrown away on this lost cause?

Another generation or two of time?

A few more billion dollars?

[JohnSJ]

31. Those examples are not comparable to the situation in Afghanistan. We have an

established democracy, with a strong national defense.

Afghanistan is an entirely different situation

Though our intentions may be good, I think it is a flaw in some of our foreign policy, to
to push Democracy in countries that aren’t ready or equipped for it

Assuming everyone has the same values as we do is not necessarily a correct conclusion. Cultural and religious dogma can be major obstacles to that

[Klaralven]

25. Taliban captures Afghan commander Ismail Khan after fall of Herat

The Taliban has captured Ismail Khan – the prominent local commander who fought on behalf of the Afghan government in the city of Herat.

Khan, who was one of the highest profile commanders fighting for the Afghan government, was handed over with the provincial governor and security officials as part of an agreement with the Taliban, said provincial council member Ghulam Habib Hashimi on Friday, according to Reuters news agency.

Khan’s capture, which was later confirmed by Taliban spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid, comes amid an offensive that has seen 18 provincial capitals fall from government control in just over a week.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/13/taliban-capture-afghan-commander-ismail-khan-after-fall-of-herat

[crickets]

47. Thanks for the link to this, Klaralven. nt

[BannonsLiver]

27. "But we must stay and help them! 20 years isn't enough!"

[JohnSJ]

33. It was inevitable. Afghanistan has always been an ungovernable country, with a

tribal society

We got diverted from our original mission

[GoodRaisin]

40. Probably trying to keep their heads.

We should have been out of there during Bush administration. Instead the mission got diverted into democracy building.

Hopefully (as you say) get back in long enough to evacuate the right way, then say goodbye for good.

[kacekwl]

45. Of course they are.

The country is obscenely corrupt and we wasted lives and money for nothing. Close the embassy and get everyone out.