I was deployed in Afghanistan in 2013

[USAFRetired_Liberal]

Specifically in Kabul training and advising their Air Force….and what is happening there was inevitable, whether we left in 2002, 2010, 2013, 2018, now, 2024, 2040 or whenever and regardless if there was a Republican or Democratic POTUS…we were propping this weak military up….me and the others with me use to joke about how once we left that the taliban would take over very quickly….just interacting with people from the Afghan military you could tell that they were very weak and would fold; they were very undisciplined by military standards …hell, even with us there, there were so many of them always going AWOL it doesn’t surprise me that they would do the same with us not there.

[ShazamIam]

1. Thanks for providing insight from your personal experience, I don't think we have had much truth in

reporting from the media folks.

[Martin68]

72. The media report what they see and what the military and officials tell them.

Easy target, but not responsible for the blunders and policies that got us here.

[Wounded Bear]

2. In the end, Afghanis need to run their own country...

It's gonna be ugly, but it always was gonna be ugly.

Might as well get it done.

[paleotn]

31. Bingo. Couldn't agree more.

[LymphocyteLover]

38. Yep-- my feeling. If we couldn't get them ready in 20 years, they were never gonna be ready

[joshcryer]

64. 3 administrations...

...two of which were completely incompetent. They had no chance.

Ironically the corrupt Afghan politicians are going to find that their actions will lead to dire consequences for themselves and their children. But it is like all conservative actions, kick the can down the road and let the next generations sort it out.

[LymphocyteLover]

65. very true

[calimary]

78. Sad, but true, I think.

[Duncanpup]

3. Thanks for posting

[Johnny2X2X]

4. Worth fighting for and worth dying for are two different things

The people we trained weren't willing to die for Democracy because they didn't care so much about it. Many will fight as long as it looks like they won't die.

[Hoyt]

5. We have to learn that invading and occupying almost any country is just not good for anyone.

[McKim]

75. Looks like the American People are Getting Tired of these Adventure Wars!

It looks like the American People are finally agreeing that we have seen this movie before. People are fed up with our squandering our chances for Universal Health Care, College Support, National Day Care system, Community and Sports Centers and Functional Infrastructure systems. Loud and clear we need to stay out of the Middle East!

[hamsterjill]

6. Thank you for this perspective.

Can I ask your thoughts as to WHY the Afghan military was weak after so many years of American help and involvement? Why are they not more willing to fight for their freedom from the Taliban?

Thank you in advance.

[krkaufman]

10. While waiting for their response...

... I'd suggest that the military doesn't have any faith in the government, the people running the show. I don't know that it could have ever been done better or differently, but it seem like we propped-up some severely corrupt leaders.

[USAFRetired_Liberal]

11. I think they are more concerned

With surviving the day, the week, the month, the year and providing for their families and doing what’s best at the moment for them….sometimes that’s being in the Afghan military and getting trained by the US, sometimes it’s going AWOL, sometimes it’s helping out the taliban….

And regarding the American involvement, there would be times that they would just wait us out…for example, let’s say their American advisor wanted them to do things a certain way, they would either begrudgingly do it or make excuses on why they weren’t doing it, knowing that their advisor would leave and get replaced by someone else in 6 months to a year, and they would just start all over on trying to work their next advisor.

[hamsterjill]

17. Appreciate it.

n/t

[LymphocyteLover]

39. were the translators the same way? the ones we've heard so much about bringing to the US?

[stopdiggin]

80. in what respect?

Is the question were they all in with the Afghan government? Willing to fight and die for democracy (given that there was such a thing, or a possibility of such a thing)? If their motivation was 98% self interest - and 2% commitment to a theoretical ideal - wouldn't that put them pretty much squarely in the running with the rest of the human race?

[LymphocyteLover]

83. I mean yes, but I guess I was just wondering if the translators were better than the average Afghan

soldier. But I suppose it's hard to compare.

[lunatica]

57. It sounds reasonable to me that their family's survival is important

That’s exactly how I would feel. Family comes first. Period.

[hibbing]

7. Thanks for posting this n/t

[OldBaldy1701E]

8. Yep. (n/t)

[Historic NY]

9. They used to have a King,

It is stunning to go back and look the country in the 50s and 60s and now. They overthrew the King, and it has been sliding down hill since. They rejected the King's attempt to bring the county into a modern European type lifestyle. Kind of reminds me of some closed areas in our own county.


pictures.
[link:https://www.boredpanda.com/afghanistan-1960-bill-podlich-photography/|]

[link:https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2013/07/afghanistan-in-the-1950s-and-60s/100544/|]

[Aviation Pro]

12. Afghan jumping jacks. Go!

….

[JoanofArgh]

13. Thanks for posting.

[samsingh]

14. thanks for that perspective. I needed to hear that.

[lindysalsagal]

15. I was afraid to open this post, assuming you'd be in the throes of "why did we make these sacrifices

Which would be a completely understandable, legitimate question. And the GQP will blame Biden, but it was the GQP who sent you there in the first place, forgetting the lessons of Vietnam and WWI.

They will probably double-down on the Saddam Hussein BS excuse, also completely forgetting that we created saddam hussein in order to use him in our kabuki war theater.

War is always used for profit. I'm sorry we used you for misguided political reasons. We should be ashamed.

[USAFRetired_Liberal]

18. As weird as it sounds

I am glad I got to go to Afghanistan. Don’t get me wrong, it sucked every single day I was there and I missed my family…and also knew that our mission was probably a losing cause…I guess that experience helped me grow and gave me a better perspective on life.

[Postal Grunt]

16. I'm not surprised...

I'm not surprised that the Afghans are collapsing. Considering that US troops didn't look like Afghans, didn't share a common culture, language, or religion and had to rely on the same old, corrupt officials and warlords to get the slightest things done, it was unreasonable to expect that the majority of Afghans wouldn't ignore or reject what the US and NATO troops were trying to establish. $800 Billion, over 2300 US troops dead, tens of thousands wounded and/or suffering from PTSD, during twenty years of ignoring reality is a stiff price to pay to learn many of the same lessons that were taught in Viet Nam.

[LymphocyteLover]

40. exactly-- it's the same awful lesson we didn't learn in Vietnam

though at least it was less deaths

[Mr.Bill]

53. Speaking of Vietnam,

I know it's not a direct comparison with this thread topic, but 50 years later, they seem to be doing a hell of a lot better without us than with us.

[70sEraVet]

56. Years ago, I was startled the first time I picked up a product with 'Made in Vietnam' label.

Now you see their stuff all over the place; clothing, nick-knacks in Hobby Lobby, etc. I suspect soon they'll have an automobile company.

[LymphocyteLover]

66. definitely!

[Hortensis]

44. :) Someone finally mentioned the words "religion" and "culture."

Another huge factor is that Afghanistan's, like almost all the ME cultures, is strongly conservative. Conservative resists change, and comparatively western culture is incredibly more liberal. We're not talking about moving from the 1950s to today but more like centuries in some ways.

I've read that in rural Afghanistan, and among many in cities, religion is tied up in every part of life, to a degree most westerners couldn't begin to understand and to the point that many Afghanis can't conceive of government that would not be Islamic. More like Europe was in the medieval era under Christianity.

Also, attempts to establish a stable centralized government of the modern era, with power to control and advance the wellbeing of an entire nation, have been failing as long as they've been trying; not just this time.

[PatSeg]

19. That is so sad

Thanks for sharing your perspective. It helps to hear from people who actually know what it is like on the ground in Afghanistan.

[Shermann]

20. Are the Taliban any tougher as individuals than the Afghan military personnel?

Or do they merely employ fear as a group more effectively?

If they really are tougher, why do you suppose that is?

[A HERETIC I AM]

25. Because they have their 12th century Gawd behind them?

They are ruthless, from what I have read. If you don't adhere to their particularly outdated and archaic religious ideology, they would just as soon publicly behead you or stone you to death.


One thing is for certain; There will never be an Afghani national airline as long as those dipshits are in charge.

I use that example because having an airline is an indicator of a somewhat advanced society that participates in the brotherhood of nations.

[paleotn]

35. Being "tough" and actually believing in what they're doing

are two entirely different things. Afghans, by any measure, are tough as hell. Simple fact is, we can’t look at them and understand them through an American context. That’s the root of the problem. In every Afghan there’s NOT an American trying to get out.

[Arazi]

36. They're religious fanatics. Pretty hard to destroy in the best of times

These guys are literally living the apocalypse (in their mind) every day, fighting the "infidels".

And if they die a martyr? Even greater rewards in heaven inshallah 😬

[qazplm135]

63. conviction

give me a Soldier with conviction and a 9mm over a Soldier who doesn't want to be there with an M4.

[AZProgressive]

21. Thank you for your service

I served in Iraq and heard from others Afghanistan was worse.

One thing is the news rarely report on Afghanistan but they are starting to once the US starts leaving.

I agree there is little the US can do to change the situation.

[USAFRetired_Liberal]

22. Thanks...I was in Iraq, too in 2007

And that experience really gave me my perspective on how weak the Afghan military was…when the Iraqi military was losing and getting their butt kicked once we left I knew that the Afghan military didn’t stand a chance…the Iraqi military seemed more disciplined and stronger so if they were having problems then the Afghans would.

[Celerity]

47. thank you for the sacrifices you made, both tangible and intangible, in choosing the martial life

[Fla Dem]

23. Thanks for the insight.

Last edited Fri Aug 13, 2021, 06:49 PM - Edit history (1)

The most powerful military in the universe,

We defeated the Nazis and Japan in four years.

But after 20 years, over 2300 US lives lost, almost a trillion dollars spent, the best war fighting equipment, how did a rag tag bunch of fundamentalists overtake a whole country. Why weren't they just blasted into nothingness, why weren't their communications destroyed so they couldn't continue to recruit, why weren't their leaders bombed into oblivion. I know it's complicated, but so difficult to accept.

Also always wondered how we were defeated in Vietnam as well.

[Jon King]

37. Because its an ideology, impossible to contain.

There were no central targets or leadership to destroy. Its a fanatical religion. They can live in caves, word of mouth is the communication. Add in the wretched terrain and trying to control Afghanistan has been a fools errand for 1000 years.

[BComplex]

52. Where's the profit in winning? The profit is in continuing to feed the war hogs

that feed at the government trough. Eisenhower was so right about the military-industrial complex. They're like crack addicts needing a fix.

That's why there's not enough money to fix our schools and roads and bridges, and huge portions of the country without broadband, or even decent cell service. Biden and the democrats are trying to correct the wrong-headedness of the republicans.

[Fla Dem]

59. I agree with you on the military/industrial complex.

I support Biden in his decision. Because if we couldn't bring resolution in 20 years, we weren't going to do it in another 20 years. So let them fight it out among themselves. I just feel sorry for the children there and in Syria who have to live in war torn countries.

[BComplex]

70. What bothers me about it is that there are so many people in the world with so much hate and

aggression in their blood that they HAVE to make war to satisfy themselves. It's not healthy.

[keithbvadu2]

24. Where empires go to die

Where empires go to die

[NQAS]

26. It has always been thus with Afghanistan

For different reasons over several hundred years countries have tried their hand at somehow taming Afghanistan. Trade routes. A buffer between Russia/China and South Asia/Middle East. Oil. Taking on the Communists. Stopping the spread of Islamic terrorists. Whatever the motives, everyone has failed. The British, the Soviet Union, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and now the U.S.

What's happening now would have happened had we pulled out of Afghanistan sooner, and it would have happened if we pulled out next year, or the year after, etc. It has nothing to do with who's the president.

[AngryOldDem]

32. Coming here to say just that.

Afghanistan has been a wasteland, in so many ways. A lost cause since almost the beginning of time. We could not be there in perpetuity.

Yes, people will point fingers at Biden when it finally falls. But he made a hard decision, and if anyone deserves blame its George Bush. But that is water under the bridge now.

All the loss over the decades — for what everyone going in knew was a fool’s errand. All I hope for is that all support personnel gets out. I don’t want to see another fall of Saigon 1975.

[Grins]

27. Same with the Saudis; an AWOL rate above 60%!!!!

And their leadership was indifferent that.

[Jon King]

28. Excellent thread, Politico had a great story a month ago saying same thing.

The Afghans had better training, larger numbers, better equipment yet would just walk away when the Taliban came. Also corruption is rampant, they would make up soldier's names and pocket their salaries.

Another factor is most males there treat women poorly. So the Taliban might take over but it will be the women who suffer the most. These Afghan males can find a way to do okay on that warped society.

[Politicub]

29. Was deposing the Taliban even part of the mission?

My husband and I were talking about it, and we were both scratching our heads about what the goal once Osama Bin Laden was caught and terrorist cells broken up.

[USAFRetired_Liberal]

30. I guess originally

But the mission over the last 15 years was basically training and advising the Afghan military on how to be a military.

[Politicub]

41. I can't begin to imagine what it must have been like there. Were you frustrated?

Extreme, violent patriarchy is so baked into Afghanistan culture that the Taliban or something like it was inevitably going to control the country.

[USAFRetired_Liberal]

45. I was frustrated at first

But then decided to do what I was able to control in my small part of the mission

[Jon King]

33. Randi Rhodes said almost 20 years ago the Taliban would wait it out.

She had experts on her radio show way back then that predicted this exact outcome. They said the Taliban could hide in caves for a generation or 2 if needed, then come back angrier and more determined than ever.

[Martin Eden]

34. Now that the Taliban takeover is obviously inevitable

How many in the crumbling government forces are willing to sacrifice their lives for a lost cause?

I read this morning we're sending 3,000 troops to protect our embassy. I wouldn't be surprised if that ended with a rooftop evacuation like Saigon.

[Politicub]

42. And in 20 years there will be a Broadway musical about it.

Just replace the title Miss Saigon with Madame Kabul.

[Martin Eden]

51. As long as it adds to our popular culture

All the wasted blood and treasure will have been worth it.

[djacq]

43. If Afghanistan won't stand up to the Taliban now, they were never going to

From one USAF Retired Liberal (24 years) to another USAF Retired Liberal, thank you for your service.

[USAFRetired_Liberal]

46. Thanks and same!

[madville]

48. I would like to think that the women there had a better life for a couple of decades

Maybe the one positive out of the whole boondoggle.

[USAFRetired_Liberal]

50. Yes you are correct

[Warpy]

49. Thank you for confirmng waht I've been saying from an historical viewpoint

and from talking to people who were there, both Afghans and US military who got out alive.

"Inevitable" is the only word I could come up with. The only group organized enough to take the country were the Taliban. Our embassy really does need to be evacuated sooner rather than later, otherwise it will either be a rout or a hostage situation.

Afghanistan is not the US. We are not going to like how they run their country, especially in the short term when they will want to eradicate any western ideas that have been taught over the last 20 years. What I hope for them is what they were becoming before the USSR fouled things up so badly, a slowly modernizing country with cautious contact with the west.

They've been through 40 years of conflict, so that's likely to take a very long time.

[Skittles]

54. I heard this many times from soldiers I corresponded with

it always seemed hopeless

[Rebl2]

55. I think

Biden understands that as well as Obama and that is why he went ahead with the draw down. R’s just love war and that’s why they are upset about getting out. They don’t care one wit about the people of Afghanistan. Look at all the people in our country the R’s don’t care about.

[CRK7376]

58. I arrived in Kandahar in Sep2002,

Deployed to a remote loction where we were training Afghan SF/Police guys. Training did not go well, lots of desertions. Many of the Afghans were hard working men who believed that we were there trying to help their country. They took it seriously, applied what we taught, did counter-terrorism/patrolling etc with us. When we left new teams arrived and had to rebuild what we started...endless cycle. I'm glad we are no longer their, but I do have lots of angst when I see what's happening there these past few months. I hate it for the guys we trained. Many of them were good solid men who loved their country, who wanted better for their families....heartbreaking.

[USAFRetired_Liberal]

62. Yes there were a lot of hard workers, but

I guess I focused on the constant desertions and AWOLS…and yes the rebuilding what the team before us started was infuriating…I use to think, why are we just now doing “this” or “that”…shouldn’t they already know this

[Mr.Bill]

60. Not an expert on the topic,

but I'd be willing to bet the leaders of our so-called allies there probably have been grifting off the money we have sent over there for 20 years. How can you spend a trillion dollars in a country like that with no noticable change. I wonder how much of that trillion is sitting in Swiss banks.

[EX500rider]

61. For sure:

Afghanistan has always been one of the most (as in the top twenty out of 180) corrupt nations on the planet. Since the Taliban were ousted in 2001 there has been tremendous economic growth in Afghanistan as well as higher literacy rates and lifespans. The corruption has been reduced as well, but not enough to win praise from the Western nations that have poured about two trillion dollars into Afghanistan during the last two decades. At least a third of it was stolen and much more spent in ways that could not be monitored. Good deeds never go unpunished and despite that foreign aid donors remain willing to continue sending cash aid, but not as much as in the past. In the last decade less and less aid was sent to Afghanistan because of their inability to get the money to where it was intended, not foreign bank accounts of corrupt officials.

https://strategypage.com/qnd/afghan/articles/20210810.aspx

[FakeNoose]

67. 99% of their GNP comes from heroin and grift

[llmart]

68. Thank you for this perspective.

It was said by many before this debacle of Dubya's and the neocons began that war in Afghanistan would never be won. Anyone who spoke out against it was made to feel unpatriotic. Those of us who were against the war in Vietnam faced the same backlash. Yet history has proven us right both times.

As others have said, war is a racket that some profit off of.

[Evolve Dammit]

69. Tribal it was and tribal it will be. Brits, Russians and USA all failed to affect change. nt

[Martin68]

71. Like the Vietnamese, the Afghani people appear feckless and weak because the occupying forces,

whether American or Soviet, just don't get it. "We're just here to help you" they protest, yet civilian casualties outnumber those of the enemy and occur randomly and often. At some point they don't care who is in charge a long as they leave them alone in their particular isolated valley. Educated city dwellers hoped the occupying forces could bring about meaningful change, but without an understanding of the culture that could never happen. The Afghan military isn't weak - they just don't give a shit. And they know the occupying forces will eventually withdraw and they will be hung out to dry. They are treading water until the next regime change. the Afghanis have been through this time and time again. We were warned, but Americans always know better. How could our well-trained well-equipped ground forces fail?

[USAFRetired_Liberal]

77. The more I think about it you assessment is better than mine

The Afghan military isn't weak - they just don't give a shit.

Yeah, it was more of that attitude than being weak.

[The Jungle 1]

85. Never should have went there.

As the Taliban takes over the abuse of boys will get worse and girls will be taken out of school.
Rampant sexual abuse is the culture of Afghanistan. I do not think war will fix that. I never held any hope for a culture that accepts child abuse. We should have bombed the shit out of them and walked away. If they ever stuck their head up again then bomb um again.

Only a total lack of cultural humanity allows the abuse of innocence.
This disgusting Afghan culture calls it bacha bazi, literally “boy play,” and American soldiers and Marines were ordered not to intervene.
“At night we can hear them screaming, but we’re not allowed to do anything about it,” the Marine’s father, Gregory Buckley Sr., recalled his son telling him.

Just imagine having to try and help these animals. Mr. Buckley's son was murdered on base.

Thank you Joe.

[Martin68]

87. I wouldn't accuse any entire "culture" of rampant sexual abuse - unless you include the US. How many

young people were abused by priests, ministers, and boy scout leaders? How many female employees had to put up with sexual abuse to keep their jobs or have any chance of promotion? How many men and women in prison have been the victims of violent sexual abuse? The truth is, sexual abuse is condemned by both the bible and the Koran. Every society has perverts who break those rules with impunity.

[quakerboy]

73. Im very curious what % of the country wanted this result

Maybe less violently or with less disruption, but what percent of the country wanted the taliban or its equivalent back in charge?

And then apply the same question to the government and military?

Because I cant see how this could happen this fast without a significant portion of people preferring them to the situation of the past 2 decades.

[usaf-vet]

74. How much American blood was shed while we were in Afghanistan. Biden want out in 2009 as VP.

[Shoonra]

76. Don't forget, the withdrawal from Afghamistan was planned under Trump, not Biden

The Afghan withdrawal was planned and made the topic of a US-Taliban agreement in 2020, under Trump. We were sick of the war and Trump started pulling troops out slowly but without any serious concern for the Afghanis being left behind. This ugliness is not Biden's fault.

[Jon King]

79. The only question is why not evacuate the helpers before setting the withdrawal date?

Seems logical to have processed the visas months ago and evacuated the translators and their families, then set the withdrawal date. Thats the only issue I have with the planning.

[stopdiggin]

81. agreed. but a), look at how crippled

(the only term that fits) our immigration system had become ... and b), I think the absolutely stunning warp speed of the Taliban takeover caught almost everyone by surprise. I.e., pretty sure the administration and State thought they had months, if not longer, in which to work this out.

[Jspur]

82. I was 18 when 9/11 happened and even at

that age I knew invading Afghanistan was stupid. I did have some knowledge of Islamic culture since my parents are immigrants from India. I'm not a Muslim but I knew the history of India and how it was oppressed by Islam for a few hundred years and it took a blood bath to get free from Islamic control.

What people failed to see back then and now is that you can't defeat or change a culture over night. It takes a long time for a culture to change which could be hundreds of years. Afghan culture never wanted to change and never wanted the US to influence there way of life or living.

I know some will scream that these people are scared of the Taliban but if they truly wanted things to change they would be willing to risk their lives for change. Just look at the American revolution and how people were willing to die for their freedom versus being ruled and occupied by England. These people don't want it bad enough and it has to do with them being accepting of the radical Afghan-Islamic culture.

[The Jungle 1]

84. We learned nothing from Vietnam!!!!!!!!!!!

How can we be this stupid. Afghanistan was stunningly stupid and Biden knew it. He remembers the pain of Vietnam. I do not understand how anyone can forget.

The question is how do we make sure America is not this stupid AGAIN. That question needs some serious debate.

Let me start the debate.
Having the strongest military in the world is very dangerous. Let's call it beer muscles and accept that it can get you in trouble. Mostly people learn after they get their ass kicked once. We didn't!
Interestingly the British did not learn the lesson either. In fact they had to be taught the lesson many times. They were also once the most powerful military in the world.

[thucythucy]

86. Substitute "ARVN" for "Afghan military"

and "Vietnam" for "Afghanistan" and this could have been written by any of the Vietnam veterans I knew and know, including my older brother.

[JCMach1]

88. Who wants to give their life for a kleptocracy (Afghan Government)...? the installed government

has been a corrupt joke since Karzai.