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bigtree

(85,971 posts)
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 11:47 AM Aug 2021

The most perverse part of the Afghanistan withdrawal criticisms

...is the twisting of the consequences of the U.S. occupation and nation-building effort into what amounts to a call to do it all over again.

Propping up the corrupt regime in Kabul hasn't deterred the Taliban from doing what they please everywhere else in the country, especially since the U.S. pulled troops back in a ring around the Afghan capital which is reminiscent of Iraq's 'cynical 'Green Zone' of defense around Baghdad where the U.S. forces retreated to after fighting for 'room' in Mosul.

I don't think of the Afghanistan occupation in terms of 'victory,' as presidents have strained to wrap their own militarism there in justifiable glory with some nebulous point of defeat of whatever 'enemy' they can conjure. It's the folly of the U.S. whose perpetual militarists can't seem to shake the absurd notion that even more military force will coerce rogue bands of individuals to our political will, having learned nothing from the quagmire in Vietnam other than we 'lost' the war.

I recall thinking Pres. Obama was poised to pull out of Afghanistan, altogether. Hell, he actually said he would, but couldn't see it through in the end. I mused about the predictable end of Pres. Obama's 'surge' of forces, designed to 'give the Karsai government room," in this 2011 essay:

"The military is quietly hoping we don't notice that they didn't actually transform that Marjah misadventure from the leveling of homes, the taking of residents' lives, and the destruction of farmland and livestock into the nation-building success that they intended for the mission to highlight."


10/29/2011
Inevitable Retreat In Afghanistan

The Pentagon and the White House are holding their breath, hoping no one notices the deepening of their clusterfuck in Afghanistan. As if to underscore the folly of their escalated military offensive, U.S. troops are planning to start withdrawing from Kandahar, the self-proclaimed center of their terror war.

WaPo reported yesterday that: "American military commanders were encouraged by an overall decline in violence in Kandahar over the summer fighting season," and that, "With President Obama having ordered the withdrawal of 10,000 troops from Afghanistan by December -- and twice that by the following fall -- some combat troops must leave the south, where the bulk of American forces are located, commanders said. "Their goal is to replicate the situation in the Afghan capital, Kabul, where coalition troops have a low-visibility presence and serve as advisers to Afghan soldiers and police."

"We will begin to thin out and turn over security of Kandahar to the Afghan security forces, in a similar fashion as we did Kabul," said Lt. Gen. Curtis M. Scaparrotti, the second-ranking commander in Afghanistan. Yet, it is precisely the defense of Kabul that is on the military commanders' minds -- much like the defense of Baghdad became Bush's last stand in Iraq.

The pullback from their self-defined litmus test in Kandahar is no surprise. Declaring that, 'This is not Fallujah', NATO had announced at the beginning of 2010 that they were counting on local 'political leaders' to direct the upcoming U.S.-led assault on their neighborhoods and communities in Kandahar. They pressed on into Kandahar City after declaring 'success' and 'progress' in their assault and takeover of the town of Marjah - an operation which also was preceded by the killing of civilians fleeing the announced raid by NATO forces bent on replacing the Taliban-based authority in the town of 80.000 with representatives from the corrupt Karzai regime.

In the pending Kandahar advance, as in the weeks leading up to the military offensive against Marjah, NATO sought to soften their path by warning off potential resistors and allowing them (and the residents in the way) time to flee to other parts of the country. No refugee centers were established to handle the anticipated flight of residents from the promised fighting on all sides; no provisions of food provided, no medical centers set up, no living quarters contemplated for the residents forced out of their homes by the invading forces.

"The solution to Kandahar will not be done through security," said the other NATO official, who's a senior U.S. military official in Kabul. "It will be enhanced through security. But the change, the real dramatic change for Kandahar, will have to happen politically."

That sentiment was echoed in the remarks of Secretary of State Clinton this week in testimony before Congress in which she described a 'two-pronged' approach in Afghanistan which involved 'talks' with the Taliban, coupled with continued military assaults on the Afghan resistance.

Yet, it's not very likely NATO will ever be able to emphasize their 'political' aims over the destructive and destabilizing impact on the communities of Kandahar from the devastating, U.S.-led military offensive. Through the force of our weapons - outside the limits that our constitution proscribes for the use of our military defenses - we're representing a corrupt regime and imposing it on the Afghan population, especially in regions which were not engaged in elections that we claim gives the new government legitimacy.

Even our would-be puppet, Karzai, has bristled and balked at the prospect of more destructive NATO conquest in Afghanistan on his behalf. The once-willing accomplice has seen the political writing on the wall and appears to be looking to settle for the assumption of power wherever the Taliban would allow. His reported outburst at the beginning of the Kandahar campaign, threatening to 'join the Taliban', was a open-warning to the U.S. that he recognizes there is no 'political solution' that can be reasonably carved out of the devastating, withering military campaign.

The military is quietly hoping we don't notice that they didn't actually transform that Marjah misadventure from the leveling of homes, the taking of residents' lives, and the destruction of farmland and livestock into the nation-building success that they intended for the mission to highlight.

As recently as this Thursday, Taliban fighters launched multiple attacks on two U.S. bases killing three Afghans and wounded six Americans. Despite that continued violence and the prospect of the Taliban forces returning, the Pentagon is committed (finally) to moving out of Kandahar.

The planned drawdown, however, is not born out of any political success or victory, but out of a certain realization that there will never be a defining end to the resistant violence there which will transform the country politically.

The only course left for a beleaguered and faltering U.S. invasion force is to pull back to the capital from their offensive positions in the south of the country and stage a desperate defense of their propped-up, yet insolent regime.

The premise behind President Obama's initial 'surge' of U.S. troops into Bush's Afghanistan quagmire was to 'push back' resisting Afghans enough to allow some sort of political reconciliation. That effort is predictably bogged down by the difficulty in getting the disparate tribes and factions to accept the central authority NATO has set up in Kabul. There's even more difficulty in getting their installed government to accommodate the interests and demands of the resisting rest of the war-split nation.

The U.S. military offensive against Kandahar was an abject failure. What happened to the promised ability of the U.S.-led NATO forces to protect the residents of Kandahar against Taliban blowback from their invasion? Nonexistent. The ability to protect innocent civilians from NATO attacks, or insulate them from the negative consequences and effects of the NATO military advance? Nonexistent. The ability of NATO to provide and deliver the services and amenities of the central government to the displaced residents?

Nonexistent.

A new Pentagon report to Congress this week indicated that Afghan civilians are dying in record numbers. "Civilian casualties -- most caused by the Taliban -- reached an all-time high this summer with approximately 450 civilians killed in July. Attacks using homemade bombs, or IEDs, also reached an all-time high this past summer, with about 750 IED detonations recorded in July."

"The change in Taliban tactics has kept up the number of civilian casualties," said the senior defense official describing the report. Even though there are fewer Taliban attacks overall, he said, the Taliban "are killing more Afghan civilians."

Predictably, resisting Afghans have avoided the areas where U.S. troops have masses and have scattered their violence around the capital and elsewhere, killing former Afghan president Burhanuddin Rabbani just this September.

Soon, our military will have the bulk of our forces hunkered down in Kabul, building dirt fortresses with guard towers to surround our unpopular junta, just to cling to the appearance of progress; just to 'stay the course' in the months before the elections as President Obama postures as 'strong' and capable on defense.

President Obama and his republican Pentagon holdovers led our nation to this retreat to Kabul. They're prepared to tolerate the continued deaths of our our soldiers as our troops eventually hunker down there; tolerate the thousands drastically wounded; waiting for some declared 'victory' to materialize out of our their desperate defense of their own lives against the Afghans that the President and the Pentagon claim we're liberating.

We've been in Afghanistan longer than our country fought WWII. No matter to our leaders, though. 'Freedom's' cause for occupation supporters is nothing more than a repression of one group or another within the sovereign nation we invaded into accepting our military forces' false authority over them; and cynical manipulation and control of the Afghan government Karzai lords over by the intimidation of our military occupation.

Our nation's possessive militarism in Afghanistan and elsewhere has divided our nation from within, and, from without against our restive allies. The escalated occupation has ignored whatever Afghans might regard as freedom in our insistence that their country be used as a barrier against the terror forces we've aggravated and enhanced in Pakistan. Yet, the soldiers the President insists on continuing to commit to his retreat to Kabul are mostly fighting and dying because they're not wanted there by the majority of the Afghan people. Our soldiers are fighting to control the Afghans, and they are busy fighting to get the U.S. to release that control.

All the while, most of the original threatening figures in our terror war have been killed -- their violent spawns made witness to the worst of al-Qaeda's warnings about U.S. imperialism, more than satisfied to have the bulk of our nation's military forces bogged down and fighting for their lives in Kabul.

According to the defense official quoted along with the new assessment, despite the obvious and enduring setbacks, "We are succeeding . . . We're going to advance our goals and draw down as we've said."

"Time is running out before the international community transfers control to Kabul by the end of 2014, and many key objectives are unlikely to be achieved by then," the report warned.

Time for the U.S. militarists to declare 'victory' and leave.

34 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
The most perverse part of the Afghanistan withdrawal criticisms (Original Post) bigtree Aug 2021 OP
It's not THAT we are withdrawaing - cilla4progress Aug 2021 #1
meh, people say dumb things bigtree Aug 2021 #2
Thank you Rustyeye77 Aug 2021 #3
We Could Stay There For A Million Years COL Mustard Aug 2021 #4
I have what could be called "exchange family" cilla4progress Aug 2021 #5
you should realize the vast majority of the troops left there were just protecting Kabul bigtree Aug 2021 #6
Well, it seems the Pentagon is surprised, cilla4progress Aug 2021 #12
you can believe that bigtree Aug 2021 #18
I Certainly Agree About The Theoretical COL Mustard Aug 2021 #7
What's theoretical about not wanting your own children to get blown to pieces in Afghanistan? greenjar_01 Aug 2021 #11
Not the only connection. cilla4progress Aug 2021 #14
Did he choose to be there freely? Were Mom and Dad wealthy flotsam2 Aug 2021 #28
Even if you enlist to have a job, marie999 Aug 2021 #31
+1. much as I hate to say it stopdiggin Aug 2021 #8
THIS! cilla4progress Aug 2021 #9
Great post Rustyeye77 Aug 2021 #13
you went right past the point bigtree Aug 2021 #16
I hear you about this. cilla4progress Aug 2021 #17
and yet, every observer stopdiggin Aug 2021 #19
you should know that's not true bigtree Aug 2021 #22
people/observers are not absolutely shocked? -(nt)- stopdiggin Aug 2021 #24
no, not all observers, inside and outside govt., agree this is a shock bigtree Aug 2021 #25
I'm sorry, I did NOT know that stopdiggin Aug 2021 #27
Abandoning the thousands of people who helped us is also gonna haunt Biden ansible Aug 2021 #15
Totally. cilla4progress Aug 2021 #20
yes. the fact that the plans to extricate stopdiggin Aug 2021 #21
At this point they can't even get our own people out of Kabul ansible Aug 2021 #23
that's not true bigtree Aug 2021 #26
They are in Kabul today. marie999 Aug 2021 #32
and we're still 'getting our people out of there' bigtree Aug 2021 #33
We "abandoned" them decades ago flotsam2 Aug 2021 #29
Obama should have ordered withdrawal the day after the 2012 election, period greenjar_01 Aug 2021 #10
Funny thing that Trump may unintentionally help Biden. David__77 Aug 2021 #34
Thank you! The Taliban has been abusing women JoanofArgh Aug 2021 #30

cilla4progress

(24,713 posts)
1. It's not THAT we are withdrawaing -
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 12:08 PM
Aug 2021

it's HOW.

Seems a bit hasty. At the very least, failure of US Intelligence as to how quickly Taliban would resume power.

Biden's statements (that this won't be like Saigon) will haunt him.

bigtree

(85,971 posts)
2. meh, people say dumb things
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 12:10 PM
Aug 2021

...like Saigon became Ho Chi Minh City right after American troops left Vietnam, the Taliban isn't going to leave any of that in place after we bug out. No one should ever be surprised by this.

COL Mustard

(5,869 posts)
4. We Could Stay There For A Million Years
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 12:14 PM
Aug 2021

And nothing would change. If the people don't want democracy and freedom, nothing we can do is going to impose it on them.

I've said before and will say again...i truly feel sorry for the women and children who will have to live under that rule, but it's not our place to dictate to them how they should live.

cilla4progress

(24,713 posts)
5. I have what could be called "exchange family"
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 12:19 PM
Aug 2021

there - family of an Afghan exchange daughter our family hosted who now resides in Canada.

It's easy and facile to wax theoretical...until you are closely connected with someone there.

These women and children will be slaughtered and enslaved.

I think we can agree that it's NO ONE'S PLACE to dictate to them how they should live. They are powerless victims of a global war machine.

And it just rolls on, crushing innocents in its path

bigtree

(85,971 posts)
6. you should realize the vast majority of the troops left there were just protecting Kabul
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 12:27 PM
Aug 2021

...the Taliban has controlled most of Afghanistan since our troops were rolled back years ago.

from 2012:

Taliban making gains as Marine presence tails off

In May, the Corps had infantry battalions based in Sangin and Kajaki, as well as a third split between Musa Qala and Now Zad. As the drawdown kicked in, however, the units dwindled in strength.

First Battalion, 8th Marines, out of Camp Lejeune, N.C., and 2nd Battalion, 5th Marines, out of Camp Pendleton, Calif., have been withdrawn from Kajaki and Musa Qala respectively. The drawdown left fewer Marines distributed across a broad swath of northern Helmand, Bradney said.

By August, Marine commanders had made it clear to Afghan officers that the Afghan National Army, Afghan Uniformed Police and other native forces would be required to take charge to maintain security.

Marines told them they would remain in advisory roles and provide quick-reaction forces in emergencies but otherwise would launch only occasional operations. It did not take long before the Taliban began attacking the Afghan bases and taking back ground the militancy had lost to the Marines.

read more: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/11/03/taliban-gains/1675141/


...how is anyone surprised by any of this? It's been nearly a decade now that we've left most of Afghanistan to the Taliban.

bigtree

(85,971 posts)
18. you can believe that
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 01:13 PM
Aug 2021

...or, from 2019:

"...in a trove of confidential government interviews obtained by The Washington Post, U.S., NATO and Afghan officials described their efforts to create an Afghan proxy force as a long-running calamity. With most speaking on the assumption that their remarks would remain private, they depicted the Afghan security forces as incompetent, unmotivated, poorly trained, corrupt and riddled with deserters and infiltrators."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/afghanistan-war-army-police/

COL Mustard

(5,869 posts)
7. I Certainly Agree About The Theoretical
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 12:30 PM
Aug 2021

The people with means will get out. The left-behinds will suffer.

 

greenjar_01

(6,477 posts)
11. What's theoretical about not wanting your own children to get blown to pieces in Afghanistan?
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 12:46 PM
Aug 2021

You've been all over these boards acting like your exchange family is the only connection anyone on this board could possibly have to Afghanistan. The blind spot is completely incredible. We've been giving our families and collective wealth to this failed and impossible project for twenty fucking years.

cilla4progress

(24,713 posts)
14. Not the only connection.
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 01:02 PM
Aug 2021

A dear friend who was an Army Ranger was killed there by friendly fire in about 2018. Complete waste.

He had some choice in the matter.

Glad to know my posts are visible. Thanks for reading!

flotsam2

(162 posts)
28. Did he choose to be there freely? Were Mom and Dad wealthy
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 01:23 AM
Aug 2021

or was there a "financial incentive" that figured into the equation? Back then I wondered about factors involved in being drafted and sent to Vietnam. It later turned out it correlated to family income...

 

marie999

(3,334 posts)
31. Even if you enlist to have a job,
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 09:48 AM
Aug 2021

there are many jobs in the military where you will never go to a war zone. Both my husband, I had not met yet, and I enlisted in the army. As Russian linguists in the Army Security Agency during Vietnam, we never went anywhere near a war zone. After basic training the only time we shot a rifle was once a year to qualify. Qualifying meant being able to shoot a rifle downrange.

stopdiggin

(11,236 posts)
8. +1. much as I hate to say it
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 12:37 PM
Aug 2021

It seems like there was little or no planning - in any strategic or operational sense - involved in our pullout. Just a date, a line in the sand - and scramble. While the administration was absolutely right in a firm commitment to leave (and not keep kicking the can down the road endlessly) - I don't think that necessarily precludes having some kind of game plan for the process. To date - precious little evidence that there was any to speak of.

And endless reiterations of what a quagmire and ultimately unsolvable problem Afghanistan is/was -- is largely beside the point. We all knew that. But this - it's hard to paint this as anything other than a major debacle. And a blossoming black eye - for Biden, and the country. And it's seriously hard swallow any argument/protest that it could not have been done better.

cilla4progress

(24,713 posts)
9. THIS!
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 12:41 PM
Aug 2021

My thoughts exactly!

I was glued to the news coming out of there all day yesterday, trying to find contacts and help for my Afghan daughter and her family.

Many commentators expressed exactly this opinion.

Thank you for articulating it so clearly.

bigtree

(85,971 posts)
16. you went right past the point
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 01:08 PM
Aug 2021

...there isn't some magical solution for our military to protect Afghans against blowback.

It shouldn't be some shock that the U.S. isn't going to succeed in making this a safe transition for Afghans, not because there's some strategy that hasn't been contemplated or pursued, but because the U.S. occupation had already collapsed a decade ago, and the Afghan troops we've been recruiting and training for a decade to hold the line disband as quickly as their pay and supplies run out.




Either today, a week from now, or in the near future, all of the remnants of the U.S. occupation will be in the Taliban's hands, and that's not just reiterating what a quagmire is, it's the grim reality of the limits of our nation's military defenses to keep people safe in other countries from civil conflict. At some point it will be over, the troops will be gone, and the people of Afghanistan will be subject to the consequences of the way our occupation fomented the very resistance people are wringing their hands about now.

There's no magic shield to prevent that, and it's sophistry to suggest this administration can do more than any other would in the same position of mopping up our deadly folly in Afghanistan. The second-guessing of the pullout is fantastical nonsense, supposing that the very forces that have been in place as the rest of Afghanistan fell to the Taliban is going to be some perfect savior of Afghans in the wake of our withdrawal.

This is the sad extent of what our military can do there:


cilla4progress

(24,713 posts)
17. I hear you about this.
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 01:11 PM
Aug 2021

Can't believe I'm advocating for strikes - but it seems the only language they can hear - raw brutality.

stopdiggin

(11,236 posts)
19. and yet, every observer
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 01:21 PM
Aug 2021

(either inside or outside the government) - outside of yourself - is absolutely shocked at the ferocious speed at which this has played out. I think I will take my cue from their palpable surprise, shock and dismay - to say that quite a few think this could have been done better.

You obviously disagree. So be it. ---------- ------

bigtree

(85,971 posts)
22. you should know that's not true
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 01:47 PM
Aug 2021

...not that it would bother me to be the only one stating the obvious.

bigtree

(85,971 posts)
25. no, not all observers, inside and outside govt., agree this is a shock
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 02:14 PM
Aug 2021

...but you should know this.

stopdiggin

(11,236 posts)
27. I'm sorry, I did NOT know that
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 10:44 PM
Aug 2021

That the Taliban would almost certainly make gains, and be completely uninterested in negotiation - yes, pretty much a given. The speed at which they have overrun the entire country - no, I think that caught quite a few (including some that were pretty well versed and well placed) flatfooted.

 

ansible

(1,718 posts)
15. Abandoning the thousands of people who helped us is also gonna haunt Biden
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 01:06 PM
Aug 2021

Taliban are already starting to execute collaborators

cilla4progress

(24,713 posts)
20. Totally.
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 01:21 PM
Aug 2021

Gotta believe they were prepared for this possibility, but from the sounds of Biden's speech in early July, "this won't be like Saigon," and "Taliban doesn't have the firepower of the Viet Cong," (paraphrasing) - not so much.

stopdiggin

(11,236 posts)
21. yes. the fact that the plans to extricate
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 01:28 PM
Aug 2021

these vulnerable (and supremely deserving) people is also in collapsed disarray -- lends fuel to the assessment that there wasn't much game plan here. And, yes .. haunt is the correct word.

bigtree

(85,971 posts)
26. that's not true
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 02:20 PM
Aug 2021

...at all.

They've just sent some 3k additional troops to facilitate an embassy withdrawal. The Taliban advance hasn't reached the capital, where nearly all the U.S. troops are stationed. There's predictable chaos outside of the protected area around Kabul, but there isn't some collapse of security that would put the exit of personnel in jeopardy.

flotsam2

(162 posts)
29. We "abandoned" them decades ago
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 01:29 AM
Aug 2021

The fact is 3 presidents ignored years of opportunities to offer them asylum and facing the truth was left to Joe Biden just months into his presidency...

 

greenjar_01

(6,477 posts)
10. Obama should have ordered withdrawal the day after the 2012 election, period
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 12:43 PM
Aug 2021

The book is still not written on how Trump essentially ran as a peace/non-interventionist candidate, and that message resonated with the white working class that had been giving up its sons and daughters to endless wars for over a decade.

It was Obama's greatest blunder to let the Afghanistan war continue into his second term.

David__77

(23,311 posts)
34. Funny thing that Trump may unintentionally help Biden.
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 02:50 PM
Aug 2021

Trumps influence neuters Republican warmongers.

JoanofArgh

(14,971 posts)
30. Thank you! The Taliban has been abusing women
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 06:35 AM
Aug 2021

all over Afghanistan in the provinces they control. Haven’t seen one fucking post about it here or anywhere else on social media before Biden announced the withdrawal. Now , everyone’s “concerned “.

The way they treat women is horrible and Biden has plans to address that using humanitarian groups and diplomacy. Much better than a military bandaid.

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