Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

MoonRiver

(36,926 posts)
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 03:37 PM Aug 2021

How do you feel about our withdrawing from Afghanistan?


25 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
It was perfectly executed.
2 (8%)
It should have been done more slowly.
0 (0%)
We should have left a small number of troops for an indefinite time.
4 (16%)
It was a botched deal.
3 (12%)
Other
16 (64%)
Show usernames
Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll
39 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
How do you feel about our withdrawing from Afghanistan? (Original Post) MoonRiver Aug 2021 OP
As good as could be expected, given the circumstances. Klaralven Aug 2021 #1
Trump made a deal with the Taliban, ignoring the Government in Kabul. applegrove Aug 2021 #2
No it didn't, but that's how tRump rolls. MoonRiver Aug 2021 #3
I'm assuming we will have troops close by for some time, but Hoyt Aug 2021 #4
The short and simple truth. panader0 Aug 2021 #11
I don't think we should have ever gone. Our actions in both Iraq and Afganistan walkingman Aug 2021 #5
+1 zuul Aug 2021 #7
I like it Polybius Aug 2021 #6
What are we to make of a 100% NO-WIN proposition? This was baked in to Bush* wars hlthe2b Aug 2021 #8
Afghanistan was unwinnable from day one in a normal sense... JCMach1 Aug 2021 #35
Well said. nt crickets Aug 2021 #36
Can we evacuate the women and girls? Wicked Blue Aug 2021 #9
We all wish... MoonRiver Aug 2021 #19
Historically... wyn borkins Aug 2021 #10
BREAKING: Biden is deploying 5000 troops to Afghanistan IcyPeas Aug 2021 #12
Is that in addition to the 3000 already deployed? MoonRiver Aug 2021 #18
It's the second worst thing we could be doing there. Mr.Bill Aug 2021 #13
Initially I was UnderThisLaw Aug 2021 #14
There's no wrong way to quit doing what we shouldn't have done to start with. Maru Kitteh Aug 2021 #15
It became a dilemma, with no good answer. TreasonousBastard Aug 2021 #16
There may not be a good answer... Rustyeye77 Aug 2021 #17
Here's what Charlie Pierce (Esquire) says about it: MyOwnPeace Aug 2021 #20
I'm sorry Rumsfeld isn't still alive Retrograde Aug 2021 #21
As well as could be expected. Nexus2 Aug 2021 #22
other. going there in the first place was the major fuck up. No NewHendoLib Aug 2021 #23
" H2O Man Aug 2021 #29
Need an option of "best we could've done under the circumstances" LymphocyteLover Aug 2021 #24
Baran movie Tetrachloride Aug 2021 #25
I feel it's way easier to start a war than to stop one. GoodRaisin Aug 2021 #26
Baran final scenes Tetrachloride Aug 2021 #27
Dubya should never have sent the troops in. LastLiberal in PalmSprings Aug 2021 #28
never should have been there gopiscrap Aug 2021 #30
+1 H2O Man Aug 2021 #32
It was always going to be this bad. Iggo Aug 2021 #31
Had to be done Deminpenn Aug 2021 #33
Sexual slavery wiki page Tetrachloride Aug 2021 #34
GWB fucked it up when he pushed for war on iraq + osama who? isis etc. pansypoo53219 Aug 2021 #37
Even without the war in IRaq and giving Afghanistan all our attention what difference would it have JI7 Aug 2021 #39
Seeing what is happening NOW . OBama should have left after we got Bin Laden. JI7 Aug 2021 #38
 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
4. I'm assuming we will have troops close by for some time, but
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 03:43 PM
Aug 2021

we never should have occupied the country in the first place. It's going to be ugly, no matter what.

walkingman

(7,591 posts)
5. I don't think we should have ever gone. Our actions in both Iraq and Afganistan
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 03:43 PM
Aug 2021

were crimes against humanity and we have no moral ground for the needless killing of thousands of people. It will come back to haunt us as will all of our previous unnecessary wars.

hlthe2b

(102,197 posts)
8. What are we to make of a 100% NO-WIN proposition? This was baked in to Bush* wars
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 03:54 PM
Aug 2021

more than 20 years ago-- and for every armed force dating back to Alexander the Great. This is what happens when our "exceptionalism" overrides any attempt to develop CULTURAL COMPETENCY. The same thing happened with our approach to Iran--before and after the Shah. Had we listened to those on the ground, rather than politicians who knew NOTHING, that might have been a world of difference there too.

It is the pathetic but predictable outcome. No winners. Lots of losers.

wyn borkins

(1,109 posts)
10. Historically...
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 04:00 PM
Aug 2021
"The U.S. War in Afghanistan (1999 – 2021)"

"The Taliban insurgency remains resilient nearly two decades after U.S.-led forces toppled its regime in what led to the United States’ longest war."

Mr.Bill

(24,264 posts)
13. It's the second worst thing we could be doing there.
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 04:05 PM
Aug 2021

The worst would be staying.

Just another Democratic President cleaning up a republican mess.

Maru Kitteh

(28,333 posts)
15. There's no wrong way to quit doing what we shouldn't have done to start with.
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 04:10 PM
Aug 2021

It was wrong from the beginning and there was no way to make it right.

MyOwnPeace

(16,925 posts)
20. Here's what Charlie Pierce (Esquire) says about it:
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 04:20 PM
Aug 2021
What the Hell Were We Doing There?

On Friday, it was announced that U.S. troops were going to be dispatched to Kabul in Afghanistan in order to cover the evacuation of the American embassy. NPR reported that the staff of the embassy had been ordered to destroy all sensitive documents. In the old days, this used to involve burning all the papers, and it was either a signal that somebody was going to
go to war with somebody somewhere, or a sign that somebody somewhere was losing a war badly and felt an urgent and imminent need to cover their tracks. This latest news from Afghanistan strikes me as far more an example of the latter. As NPR also reported:

The Embassy also employs many Afghan workers. Their future was not immediately clear.

Nothing good comes from that sentence. Nothing good at all.

For a number of years now, every time another spasm of violence happened in Afghanistan, I wondered just what in the hell we were still doing there. I understood the initial engagement; no American president could have survived not having retaliated after 9/11. I tried to understand the mission of the ground troops we sent in there despite the fact that I knew Afghanistan historically was a sinkhole that made Vietnam look like the War of Jenkins Ear. I am not sorry at all that we iced Osama bin Laden the way we did. But still, what in hell were we still doing there? Didn’t we know about the British and the Soviets? Didn’t we know about Alexander the Great, who, after his great victory at Gaugamela, went into that area of Asia and promptly came apart? Frank Holt, in his Into the Land of Bones, explained the long, bloody comeuppance every great power had received when they meddled in that rocky corner of the world.

First, with exuberant expectations, the British Empire gathered in 1838 a grand army to quell the unruly Afghans. The goal was simply to replace one ruler (Dost Muhammed) with another (the exiled Shah Shuja) more amenable to British interests. “There have been few military campaigns in British history,” writes Major General James Lunt, “which were more ineptly planned and more incompetently executed than the first Afghan War; and that is saying a good deal.”…

…they placed Shah Shuja on the throne. This foreign intervention, however, stirred growing resentment among the native peoples even as most of the British troops swaggered back to India. Tribal opposition mounted across Afghanistan, erupting disastrously when terrorists butchered a prominent British official named Alexander “Bukhara” Burnes. In January 1842, the empire’s remaining 4,500 soldiers and their 12,000 camp followers retreated from Kabul in a long wintry death-march that only one European survived…The Second Afghan War (1878–1880) commenced with a swift invasion by 33,500 troops.

The Second Afghan War went as bloodily for Great Britain as the first one did, and a General named Sir Frederick Roberts concluded that the best thing for all concerned was to leave Afghanistan to the people who lived there. Roberts advised, according to Holt:

“It may not be very flattering to our amour propre, but I feel sure I am right when I say that the less the Afghans see of us the less they will dislike us. Should Russia in future years attempt to conquer Afghanistan, or invade India through it, we should have a better chance of attaching the Afghans to our interests if we avoid all interference with them in the meantime.”

(There was one upside to the Second Afghan War, albeit a completely fictional one: a Royal Army surgeon named John H. Watson was wounded there and rescued by his intrepid orderly, Murray. He returned to London, where he accepted an offer to share a suite of rooms at 221B Baker Street with an eccentric private detective named Sherlock Holmes.)

We were just the latest Great Power to go crashing into Afghanistan.
Of course, Russia, then d/b/a the Soviet Union, ignored Sir Frederick’s warning and marched 100,000 troops into Afghanistan in order to put a puppet in place. The U.S. took Sir Frederick’s advice and “attached” the various tribal chieftains and warlords to our interests in order to bleed the Soviets the way every invader inevitably bleeds out in Afghanistan. That plan succeeded, and then we left, and the bill came due in the fall of 2001. And then we went back in, overtly this time. In 2008, a Russian veteran of their Afghan adventure named Ruslan Aushev gave an interview to the Toronto Globe and Mail.

"Canadians and Americans are learning the hard way. You have been there seven years and you have no prospect of early victory," said Ruslan Aushev, a highly decorated combat veteran who served two tours, totalling nearly five years with the Soviet army in Afghanistan. "We knew by 1985 that we could not win," he recalls. It then took Moscow four more years to extricate hundreds of thousands of troops from Afghanistan, while claiming victory on the way out. Afghanistan was plunged into civil war…"We could take any village, any town and drive the mujahedeen out," Mr. Aushev said, recalling his two combat tours, first as an infantry battalion commander and later in charge of a full Soviet regiment - roughly the size of the Canadian contingent in Afghanistan. "But when we handed ground over to the Afghan army or police they would lose it in a week.”

"The Taliban may not be able to win militarily but they can't be defeated and sooner or later the Western alliance will be forced with pullout," he warned. Support for the insurgents will grow the longer the foreign armies remain in Afghanistan, he said. Although the Soviets deployed more than 100,000 soldiers across Afghanistan - roughly double the number of U.S. and North Atlantic Treaty Organization troops currently deployed - and trained an Afghan army three times the size of Kabul's current security forces, it was never enough, Mr. Aushev said…"There will have to be an accord with the Taliban, because at least 50 per cent of the Afghan population supports them…It's impossible to conquer the Afghans ... Alexander the Great couldn't do it, the British couldn't do it, we couldn't do it and the Americans won't do it ... no one can.”

What the hell were we doing there, and why didn’t we listen to anyone who had been?
Now, as has been the case in so many of our recent wars, nothing is left but the bitter recriminations. The Taliban likely will own Afghanistan by Labor Day at the very latest, because they are the best organized power gang in the country. They likely will be as ruthless and retrograde as they were the last time. Whatever gains the women of Afghanistan had made under the umbrella of United States’ protection likely will be violently swept away. The Seventh Century will make one more comeback in the strange bell jar that is that country.

There is nothing we can do about any of that. There never was anything we could do about that, short of leaving a massive army of occupation there in virtual perpetuity. We had one specific purpose in mind—to bring to justice, one way or another, the people who had committed atrocities in this country on September 11, 2001. That we could do. That we did. And then some think-tank cowboys and honorarium-fattened hyenas decided to lie the country into an invasion of Iraq before our work in Afghanistan, whatever it was supposed to be, was done. Soon, we had two slow-rolling calamities on our hands, and Iraq shuffled Afghanistan off the main stage. This was another terrible idea. History shows that Afghanistan is a marvelous environment for those. There’s a limit to the crops you can grow there, but it’s a highly fertile place for Great Power foolishness.

We will now hear a lot from people who accuse us of betraying Afghanistan, as though 20 years, 2,400 KIA, and more than $2 trillion was insufficient. None of those people have produced an adequate answer to the question of what the hell we were doing there, and what the hell we would do there for the next 10, 20, or 50 years. Sooner or later, we have to learn the lessons of history, because we’ve been deaf to them for so long. In Vietnam, we should’ve learned that the only people who really want the places in which we choose to make war are the people who live there. But we didn’t, and Afghanistan is further proof of that. We hung around there until we became part of the historical architecture of the place. As Frank Holt writes:

When in turn the British, Russians, and Americans each seized Kandahar in southern Afghanistan, they occupied a city founded by Alexander himself and still bearing the Arabic version of his name. When U.S. troops charged on horseback against the Taliban strongholds of Mazar-i-Sharif, they rode past the crumbling walls of Alexander’s main camp, and the capital of the Greek kingdom that endured there for centuries.

What the hell are we doing in Afghanistan? Leaving, the way everyone always has.

Retrograde

(10,132 posts)
21. I'm sorry Rumsfeld isn't still alive
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 04:20 PM
Aug 2021

to witness this debacle and have the blame laid at his feet. (Yeah, I'm naive enough still to believe people will be held responsible for their warmongering.)

Nexus2

(1,261 posts)
22. As well as could be expected.
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 04:23 PM
Aug 2021

It is going to lead to a train wreck, no doubt. Thing is, nothing was every going to get better there. We've been there 20 years and the Afghan national government is 100% as dysfunctional as it was the day we set it up.

All staying there will do is kill more Americans. We stay there another 20 years then 20 years worth of Americans will die and then the government will collapse the day we leave. So might as well pull the band aid off and get the humanitarian disaster started now.

NewHendoLib

(60,013 posts)
23. other. going there in the first place was the major fuck up. No
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 04:30 PM
Aug 2021

good way forward from that point on. No win situation. Getting out of there is essential.

GoodRaisin

(8,921 posts)
26. I feel it's way easier to start a war than to stop one.
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 04:51 PM
Aug 2021

I'm not smart enough to second guess our exit strategy, but it's clear that Bush didn't have one when we weren't out by the end of his second administration. Obviously Joe Biden does have a strategy and commitment to get our soldiers out. Hopefully it's successful and we get all our people and friends out of harms way in the process. I have no doubt he will do his best to achieve that end. If we have to send troops back in long enough to achieve that, then okay. It's better he's doing it instead of a stupid president.

28. Dubya should never have sent the troops in.
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 04:55 PM
Aug 2021

There was no evidence that either Saddam Hussein or Afghanistan had anything to do with 9-11. There was evidence that the hijackers were nearly all Saudis, and Saudi money paid for their flight lessons and living expenses in the U.S. The Afghanis don't know anything about 9-11, and there's an entire generation that has been raised in American-occupied Afghanistan. There was no good way to end our participation in this disaster, but now that it's over there will no longer be spouses and children who suffered the loss of a loved one who was killed in Dubya's war.

"All the great presidents were war time presidents," had said in an interview. When I read that I just knew he was going start a war.

Deminpenn

(15,273 posts)
33. Had to be done
Sat Aug 14, 2021, 05:02 PM
Aug 2021

The US could give the non-taliban army as much training and equipment as they wanted but we could not give them the will to fight.

The same ending would have happened regardless.

JI7

(89,244 posts)
39. Even without the war in IRaq and giving Afghanistan all our attention what difference would it have
Sun Aug 15, 2021, 12:04 AM
Aug 2021

made ?

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»How do you feel about our...