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kpete

(71,978 posts)
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 09:31 AM Aug 2021

Afghanistan: "No more pretending it meant anything. It didn't - It didn't mean a fucking thing"

from a post by: Laura Jedeed

Boy howdy am I having a lot of feelings about Afghanistan today

I deployed there twice--once in 2008 and once in 2009-10

It was already obvious that the Taliban would sweep through the very instant we left

And here we are today
I know how bad the Taliban is. I know what they do to women and little boys. I know what they're going to do to the interpreters and the people who cooperated with us, it's awful, it's bad, but we are leaving, and all I feel is grim relief
Afghanistan is a dusty beige nightmare of a place full of proud, brave people who did not fucking want us there

We called them Hajjis and worse and they were better than we were, braver and stronger and smarter
I remember going through the phones of the people we detained and finding clip after clip of Bollywood musicals, women singing in fields of flowers

Rarely did I find anything incriminating

I remember finding propaganda footage cut together from the Soviet invasion and our own Operation Enduring Whatever

And laughing about how stupid the Afghans were to not know we aren't the Russians

And then eventually realizing I was the stupid one
I remember how every year the US would have to decide how to deal with the opium fields

You could let them alone, and then the Taliban would shake the farmers down and use the money to buy weapons
Or you could carpet bomb the fields and then the farmers would join the Taliban
Or you could give the farmers fertilizer as an incentive to grow wheat instead of opium poppy, and the farmers would sell the fertilizer to the Taliban, who used it to make explosives for IEDs that could destroy a million dollar MRAP and maim everyone inside


I remember we weren't allowed to throw batteries away because people who worked on base would go through the trash and collect hundreds of dead batteries, wire them together so they had just enough juice for one charge, and use that charge to detonate an IED
I remember the look on my roommate's face after she got back from cutting the dead bodies of two soldiers out of an HMMWV that got blown up by an IED that I have always imagined was made with fertilizer from an opium farmer and detonated with a hundred thrown-out batteries

I remember an Afghan kid who worked in the DFAC (cafeteria) who we called Cowboy, always wore this cowboy hat and an "I'm with stupid" t-shirt someone had given him, always with a big smile, high school age
Cowboy was a good student and he wanted to go to college in America, but there weren't colleges that took Afghans, the education system was too shit. No program to help kids like him. I looked

I wonder if he's dead now, for serving us food and dreaming of something different

But if Cowboy is dead then he died a long time ago, and if Cowboy is dead it's our fault for going there in the first place, giving his family the option of trusting us when we are the least trustworthy people on the planet

We use people up and throw them away like it's nothing

And now we are leaving and the predictable thing is happening, the Taliban is surging in and taking it all back

They have what you can't buy or train, they have patience and a bloody-mindedness that warrants more respect than we ever gave them

I am Team Get The Fuck Out Of Afghanistan which, as a friend pointed out to me today, has always been Team Taliban

It's Team Taliban or Team Stay Forever, there is no third team
So I'm sitting here reading these sad fucking tweets about the suffering in Afghanistan and the horror of the encroaching Taliban and how awful it is that this is happening but I can't stop feeling this grim happiness, like, finally, you fuckers, finally you have to see it too
No more blown up soldiers. No more Bollywood videos on phones whose owners are getting shipped god knows where. No more hypocrisy

No more pretending it meant anything. It didn't

It didn't mean a fucking thing

FROM:


?s=20
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1426689324284841987.html
86 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Afghanistan: "No more pretending it meant anything. It didn't - It didn't mean a fucking thing" (Original Post) kpete Aug 2021 OP
It was the vehicle that enabled us to get bin Laden, and dismantle AQ's JohnSJ Aug 2021 #1
It didn't do that. Voltaire2 Aug 2021 #4
Yes it did. It pushed him out of Afghanistan, and provided vital intelligence JohnSJ Aug 2021 #8
correct azureblue Aug 2021 #13
Truth! Jay25 Aug 2021 #39
No I don't forget, they were the mujahideen, and it was Reagan's wet dream. To deny that bin laden JohnSJ Aug 2021 #68
al Qaeda did have its initial training camps there. Texin Aug 2021 #16
I doubt our invasion of Afghanistan helped anything or anybody except the Bushes and Cheneys. yardwork Aug 2021 #67
and the defense contractors - who made $1,000,000,000,000 (trillon) dollars - n/t Locrian Aug 2021 #77
I used "Bushes and Cheneys" as shorthand for the contractors. yardwork Aug 2021 #79
Cheney's company Halliburton was awarded no bid contracts for the wars. panader0 Aug 2021 #80
Never. Not with Fox News and all the other propaganda. yardwork Aug 2021 #82
War is a racket; supplying freedom and democracy is the play; taxpayers are the marks; Magoo48 Aug 2021 #81
Thanks so much for sharing this, kpete. littlemissmartypants Aug 2021 #2
Huge K&R secondwind Aug 2021 #3
Beautiful thread greenjar_01 Aug 2021 #5
Of course it didn't. Treefrog Aug 2021 #6
A cross post from earlier this A.M. usaf-vet Aug 2021 #41
And for 8 years zipplewrath Aug 2021 #64
It meant billions to the Capitalists - Remember Reagan's "Greed is Good!" walkingman Aug 2021 #7
I don't think he ever said those exact words RVN VET71 Aug 2021 #47
Another Viet Nam. colorado_ufo Aug 2021 #9
this one line, just gut punched me so hard.... FM123 Aug 2021 #10
K & R...nt Wounded Bear Aug 2021 #11
Still we need to know why the intelligence was this awful. Jon King Aug 2021 #12
The intelligence is only as good dianaredwing Aug 2021 #38
I think Biden knew this would happen, though perhaps not so quickly Martin Eden Aug 2021 #48
Thanks for finding and posting for us here at DU. 7wo7rees Aug 2021 #14
War is a Racket should be read by everybody! burrowowl Aug 2021 #74
Required reading for high school degree. 7wo7rees Aug 2021 #86
Shades of Vietnam, where the grunts often said, PatrickforB Aug 2021 #15
It did mean a lot of money into the pockets of the guys who built the weapons ashredux Aug 2021 #17
Vietnam redux ashredux Aug 2021 #18
This: It's Team Taliban or Team Stay Forever, there is no third team CrispyQ Aug 2021 #19
And Team US was subject to leaving when the next Vietnamistan breaks out. marble falls Aug 2021 #28
I do not understand... The Jungle 1 Aug 2021 #20
Not surprised even a little bit... Moostache Aug 2021 #23
History has repeated itself that is clear. The Jungle 1 Aug 2021 #29
How many times do we have to learn this? brush Aug 2021 #37
It didn't collapse in one week greenjar_01 Aug 2021 #24
We were used all they did was collect a trillion dollar paycheck. The Jungle 1 Aug 2021 #76
No question...a bunch of Americans got ultra rich off this shit greenjar_01 Aug 2021 #78
Follow the money. Those are the ones that need a rope. Moscow's Mitch made his fortune during ... marble falls Aug 2021 #26
Looks like from RMs reporting Putin's Whore started dismantling forces 1.5 yrs ago uponit7771 Aug 2021 #75
Yeah, my daughter was deployed there in 2005-2006 I think it was ismnotwasm Aug 2021 #21
well the Taliban bdamomma Aug 2021 #27
It's a complete shit show ismnotwasm Aug 2021 #34
I hope she returned to civilian life well, after readjusting electric_blue68 Aug 2021 #59
She's a special education teacher ismnotwasm Aug 2021 #84
Glad to know she's doing well, and doing good. 👍 Yw electric_blue68 Aug 2021 #85
It don't mean nothin', not a thing. marble falls Aug 2021 #22
The Taliban is just another bright shining example Mr. Evil Aug 2021 #25
American Taliban Martin Eden Aug 2021 #50
We should have been out when bin Laden got whacked Warpy Aug 2021 #30
We eventually found bin Laden. marie999 Aug 2021 #36
Not quite the point Warpy Aug 2021 #43
Americans will do some pulling back of the curtains which have shrouded their soul for so long. jaxexpat Aug 2021 #31
Just another place to rape cilla4progress Aug 2021 #32
Thanks for posting this, kpete. This should be read aloud tonight on every television channel by a LaMouffette Aug 2021 #33
I hope Ms. Jedeed writes a book or goes on a lecture tour. Boomerproud Aug 2021 #35
All the result of the PNAC dream of an "imperial America"... CaptainTruth Aug 2021 #40
Exactly. When Ken Lay had his own office in the WH laying out maps of the oil fields... Evolve Dammit Aug 2021 #53
It meant plenty to the Republican politicians both as a war drum to rally their party base around as cstanleytech Aug 2021 #42
Our politicians have been eager to fight the bogeymen of communism and socialism Lonestarblue Aug 2021 #44
You just made me think of a new way to view republi-CONS. calimary Aug 2021 #45
Yes, birds of a feather ranting about imaginary crises and ignoring real ones. Lonestarblue Aug 2021 #49
Time for a template check: Mopar151 Aug 2021 #56
Indeed. calimary Aug 2021 #83
Thank you kpete DENVERPOPS Aug 2021 #46
What these past 20 years have meant to Afghans and their culture is not something Hortensis Aug 2021 #51
"We use people up and throw them away like it's nothing." Excellent insight. Thanks kpete Evolve Dammit Aug 2021 #52
Allen Fu____g Dulles, defined Mopar151 Aug 2021 #57
This is incredibly powerful. I hope Laura Jedeed finds a writing gig, or writes a book... Hekate Aug 2021 #54
Powerful and moving. ancianita Aug 2021 #55
Stunning. thucythucy Aug 2021 #58
Our soldiers have the greatest respect. They go where the CIC tells them to go. They did their job rockfordfile Aug 2021 #60
Thank you for posting this, kpete. nt crickets Aug 2021 #61
History rumleyfips Aug 2021 #62
OMG Alice Kramden Aug 2021 #63
Being age 73 and living thru Vietnam and losing a best friend to that bullshit war MOMFUDSKI Aug 2021 #65
an old saying milan755803 Aug 2021 #66
I beg to differ. We needed to root Al Qaeda out of Afghanistan. But then we let our ambitions and Martin68 Aug 2021 #69
Why must we be the world's morality police? Moebym Aug 2021 #72
Except, of course: $$$$ peppertree Aug 2021 #70
Could this be a turning point in American foreign policy? Aussie105 Aug 2021 #71
Great Post! burrowowl Aug 2021 #73

JohnSJ

(92,109 posts)
1. It was the vehicle that enabled us to get bin Laden, and dismantle AQ's
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 09:35 AM
Aug 2021

threat.

When that was accomplished the mission was over.


Voltaire2

(12,977 posts)
4. It didn't do that.
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 09:40 AM
Aug 2021

bin Laden was in Islamabad when he was executed.

al Qaeda survived our invasion and occupation of Afghanistan.

JohnSJ

(92,109 posts)
8. Yes it did. It pushed him out of Afghanistan, and provided vital intelligence
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 10:06 AM
Aug 2021

The Taliban were openly providing sanctuary to bin laden and AQ

AQ planned 9/11 in Afghanistan

They missed him in Tora Bora, which was when he fled to Pakistan, but others from AQ remained

azureblue

(2,146 posts)
13. correct
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 10:10 AM
Aug 2021

actually it was the excuse Cheney used to get troops over their to divert to Iraq to advance the interests of the US oil companies in the middle east. Post 9/11, BL was in AFgh, but as soon as the troops landed there, Cheney diverted them to Iraq. And no one stopped him. And by doing so, it gave BL room to regroup. All in the name of Republican politics.

People forget that the US created the Taliban when we decided to supply and support Afgh freedom fighters resisting a soviet invasion. Yeah, THAT Rambo movie..

Jay25

(417 posts)
39. Truth!
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 11:39 AM
Aug 2021

The US is responsible for quite a bit of damage throughout the world, especially to those who don't bow down and obey.

JohnSJ

(92,109 posts)
68. No I don't forget, they were the mujahideen, and it was Reagan's wet dream. To deny that bin laden
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 08:16 PM
Aug 2021

and AQ were in Afghanistan is ignoring history. There were a few reporters who actually had interviews in Afghanistan with bin laden prior to 9/11

In fact the 9/11 attacks were planned by AQ in Afghanistan

Your analysis was correct that the bush administration used 9/11 as an excuse to go into Iraq, based on a lie.

They didn’t take all the troops out, and left a good portion there


Texin

(2,594 posts)
16. al Qaeda did have its initial training camps there.
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 10:31 AM
Aug 2021

But they moved out of Afghanistan subsequently. And no one can tell me that between the military and intelligence forces that they didn't realize that or even where Bin Laden was. Frankly, I think they always had a very strong sense that he'd set himself up in Pakistan.

yardwork

(61,585 posts)
79. I used "Bushes and Cheneys" as shorthand for the contractors.
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 09:02 AM
Aug 2021

That's how those crime families make their money.

panader0

(25,816 posts)
80. Cheney's company Halliburton was awarded no bid contracts for the wars.
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 09:15 AM
Aug 2021

They made billions of taxpayer dollars. Hopefully the people of the US will see what really happened.

Magoo48

(4,700 posts)
81. War is a racket; supplying freedom and democracy is the play; taxpayers are the marks;
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 09:21 AM
Aug 2021

fear is the tool; foreign resources are the long con.

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
64. And for 8 years
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 05:46 PM
Aug 2021

And yet one of "our own" kept pouring in the money and blood to prop up this disaster, despite his VP telling him not to. None the less he is the "best president" of something. But Progressives are still the problem.

RVN VET71

(2,690 posts)
47. I don't think he ever said those exact words
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 01:05 PM
Aug 2021

He lived them, no doubt about it. But I don’t recall him saying it so bluntly. Gordon Gekko said “Greed -- for want of a better word -- is good,” and Ivan Boesky, before he was tried and imprisoned for financial crimes, told the graduating class at Berkely’s school of business that “Greed is alright, by the way.”

But I don’t think even a “conservative” politician would expose him or herself by saying so cogently what they all believe and live by.

FM123

(10,053 posts)
10. this one line, just gut punched me so hard....
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 10:09 AM
Aug 2021
But if Cowboy is dead then he died a long time ago, and if Cowboy is dead it's our fault for going there in the first place, giving his family the option of trusting us when we are the least trustworthy people on the planet

Jon King

(1,910 posts)
12. Still we need to know why the intelligence was this awful.
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 10:10 AM
Aug 2021

All of this is true, but the huge question is who was giving Biden the intel he used when he said on July 9th that the Taliban would not take over the entire country.

This war is over but we need to know how our intelligence is failing our decision makers.

dianaredwing

(406 posts)
38. The intelligence is only as good
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 11:35 AM
Aug 2021

as those who receive it and interpret or misinterpret it (sometimes on purpose). I know I didn't get any direct messages from anyone. All information that the public receives comes through the government and sometimes the press but in any case, it is nearly always second, third, forth hand information.

Martin Eden

(12,858 posts)
48. I think Biden knew this would happen, though perhaps not so quickly
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 01:12 PM
Aug 2021

But he couldn't say we're pulling out knowing the government and their military we worked so hard to prop up would soon fall apart, resulting Taliban total control of Afghanistan.

Not only because of the domestic political consequences, but because such an expression of zero confidence in our Afghan allies would have hastened their disintegration.

7wo7rees

(5,128 posts)
14. Thanks for finding and posting for us here at DU.
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 10:12 AM
Aug 2021

I've/we've been having tough time dealing with all of this unfolding and for how it is affecting our vets, their families, everyone in Afghanistan. How the media is shifting blame.

But this vet just nails all of it. So very sorry.

Ms 7wo7rees (on behalf of us both)

(Personal note, we were opposed from the very beginning and we knew about PNAC and the MIC, you know, read "War is Racket", by General Smedly Butler.)

7wo7rees

(5,128 posts)
86. Required reading for high school degree.
Thu Aug 19, 2021, 06:56 AM
Aug 2021

Way back some 40 years ago or so, to graduate from high school one had to have x # of credit hours in "civics". Study how government works......

"War is a Racket" should be required reading to graduate from high school.

As should be the words of this vet as well!

My heart is just broken.

CrispyQ

(36,437 posts)
19. This: It's Team Taliban or Team Stay Forever, there is no third team
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 10:34 AM
Aug 2021

I remember how every year the US would have to decide how to deal with the opium fields

You could let them alone, and then the Taliban would shake the farmers down and use the money to buy weapons
Or you could carpet bomb the fields and then the farmers would join the Taliban
Or you could give the farmers fertilizer as an incentive to grow wheat instead of opium poppy, and the farmers would sell the fertilizer to the Taliban, who used it to make explosives for IEDs that could destroy a million dollar MRAP and maim everyone inside.


 

The Jungle 1

(4,552 posts)
20. I do not understand...
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 10:34 AM
Aug 2021

How it can be that we spent a trillion dollars and twenty years building the Afghan military only to have it collapse in ONE WEEK.
Did we stay because we knew the army would collapse? Catch 22 all over again.
Thank you Joe

Moostache

(9,895 posts)
23. Not surprised even a little bit...
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 10:50 AM
Aug 2021

USA trained "armies" have a very piss poor record against committed partisans fighting for control of their countries...

The Viet Cong and NVA showed the playbook in the 60's and 70's.
The Iraqis sucked up American dollars at a stunning rate (kick backs were certainly part of those disappearing dollars too).
The Iraqi Army was a joke without Americans doing the heavy lifting, much like the South Vietnamese Army.
The Afghans already had decades (centuries?) of experience in the same thing before we got there.

An army that is structured around mass destruction and enormous invasions and holding cities cannot defeat an insurgency.
That same army can train troops in soldiering until the cows come home...but they cannot give them courage or conviction or a cause to fight for and die for.

Counter-insurgency is NOT a military operation, it is a political one. With no allies worth a squirt of piss in the government, there is no hope of ever quelling an insurgency. This was always the way things would go as soon as we decided to leave. All the other arm chair quarterbacking is white noise.

 

The Jungle 1

(4,552 posts)
29. History has repeated itself that is clear.
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 10:59 AM
Aug 2021

The question is how do we as American citizens make sure this does not happen again????
Vietnam was not very long ago. How could we have forgotten everyone of the lessons?

brush

(53,758 posts)
37. How many times do we have to learn this?
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 11:25 AM
Aug 2021

How many times do we listen to the war profiteers/MIC who want to make profits while enabling colonels who want to make general.

 

greenjar_01

(6,477 posts)
24. It didn't collapse in one week
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 10:53 AM
Aug 2021

The Afghan Army has been a paper force for a decade. The Taliban has been in control of much of the country at least that long, and began this offensive in earnest a year ago, with the major gains coming over the last several months. But these are non-linear dynamics: it just hit a tipping point where everyone went the same way at the same time, finito.

Obama should have ordered the complete withdrawal on the day immediately following his re-election.

 

The Jungle 1

(4,552 posts)
76. We were used all they did was collect a trillion dollar paycheck.
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:39 AM
Aug 2021

I bet a whole bunch of American corporations also got rich.

 

greenjar_01

(6,477 posts)
78. No question...a bunch of Americans got ultra rich off this shit
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:56 AM
Aug 2021

And many more made their money and salaries for decades.

A good deal of the US economy is just government hand-outs repackaged as military spending. Probably 90% of it is completely pointless and exists only to juice the economy. We have a trillion dollar welfare program that goes under the name of the Pentagon budget.

marble falls

(57,055 posts)
26. Follow the money. Those are the ones that need a rope. Moscow's Mitch made his fortune during ...
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 10:54 AM
Aug 2021

... this time. Dicl Cheney's Brown and Root were one of the biggest contractors. We could go down the list of anyone associated with GWB or his administration.

The only reason 45 wanted the war stopped was because he couldn't step up to the trough himself.

All he wanted was the rights to Trump Tower Kabul, so he cut 5000 Taliban leaders loose, including the current President of Afghanistan.

ismnotwasm

(41,971 posts)
21. Yeah, my daughter was deployed there in 2005-2006 I think it was
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 10:34 AM
Aug 2021

I remember her telling me the Taliban were all over the place.

bdamomma

(63,810 posts)
27. well the Taliban
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 10:55 AM
Aug 2021

never abandoned their country after endless encounters of Russians and Americans who were stationed out there, but what are they going to accomplish? a terror state??? I agree with the some of comments here, we had no business there in the first place. A number of rich bastards got richer from it, and we lost 24,000 Americans. Just really unfortunate.

ismnotwasm

(41,971 posts)
84. She's a special education teacher
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 12:00 PM
Aug 2021

One of my grandsons is severely autistic, and that inspired her, thank you.

Mr. Evil

(2,828 posts)
25. The Taliban is just another bright shining example
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 10:54 AM
Aug 2021

of the real reason religion exists. Only 2 words: power, control. Created BMFM (by men, for men).

Don't think for a moment that the evangelicals want any less here. They own the republicans. Without them the republicans would only receive a fraction of the votes they legitimately get and the republicans know this. Never turn your back on them.

Martin Eden

(12,858 posts)
50. American Taliban
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 01:21 PM
Aug 2021

The US has no shortage of religious fundamentalists and Dominionists who want theocratic rule in America.

And YES, religious faith has always been manipulated and exploited as a means of control.

I can understand how people would cling to their religion in a place like Afghanistan; after decades of grief and suffering and brutal poverty, what else do they have?

But what's the excuse for the American Taliban?

Warpy

(111,222 posts)
30. We should have been out when bin Laden got whacked
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 11:06 AM
Aug 2021

We knew that while he was still alive, he'd just go back and rebuild his infrastructure. He'd married a few times and was related to a lot of Afghanistan because of it, they'd never have kept him out.

Will there be another hate crazed oil money guy from the Middle East who will take up the cause? Probably. We'll have to deal with him when he pops up.

 

marie999

(3,334 posts)
36. We eventually found bin Laden.
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 11:20 AM
Aug 2021

We would have found him even if we had not attacked Afghanistan. Even if he had stayed in Afghanistan or wherever he decided to go.

Warpy

(111,222 posts)
43. Not quite the point
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 12:05 PM
Aug 2021

We kept him out of the most hospitable place he found for training his thugs. If I'm not mistaken both Afghan and Pakistani informants contributed to finding him. Once he and his money were gone, the organization largely fell apart and that's when we should have gotten out. We couldn't have done any of that had we not been there.

jaxexpat

(6,813 posts)
31. Americans will do some pulling back of the curtains which have shrouded their soul for so long.
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 11:07 AM
Aug 2021

It's good to do that from time to time. But it's more important to identify the underlying causes of our international errors. For this case I blame the electoral college. The evil entity that gave us the minority elected(?) moron in chief. He came complete with his cadre of neo-con guided idealogues without whom this Afghanistan horror show couldn't have happened.

cilla4progress

(24,723 posts)
32. Just another place to rape
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 11:11 AM
Aug 2021

to flex muscle.

"Oh, Russia couldn't beat you into submission? Hold my beer."

LaMouffette

(2,020 posts)
33. Thanks for posting this, kpete. This should be read aloud tonight on every television channel by a
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 11:14 AM
Aug 2021

veteran of the Afghanistan war. Every American should hear or read these words.

Boomerproud

(7,949 posts)
35. I hope Ms. Jedeed writes a book or goes on a lecture tour.
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 11:17 AM
Aug 2021

Everyone needs to hear this. So Powerful !

CaptainTruth

(6,582 posts)
40. All the result of the PNAC dream of an "imperial America"...
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 11:44 AM
Aug 2021

And they will never be held responsible for it.

Evolve Dammit

(16,719 posts)
53. Exactly. When Ken Lay had his own office in the WH laying out maps of the oil fields...
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 01:57 PM
Aug 2021
GOP are despicable and Americans are fucking stupid and easily conned. Paves the way to riches.

cstanleytech

(26,273 posts)
42. It meant plenty to the Republican politicians both as a war drum to rally their party base around as
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 11:57 AM
Aug 2021

well as a way to siphon hundreds of billions of dollars of tax payer money on increased military spending and thus into their own pockets in varies ways.

Lonestarblue

(9,958 posts)
44. Our politicians have been eager to fight the bogeymen of communism and socialism
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 12:18 PM
Aug 2021

for decades, but when the most dangerous ideology—fascism—is growing by leaps and bounds in our own country, they do nothing. From the era of Joe McCarthy to today, Republicans have made many decisions based on fighting communism. Vietnam was all about communism and weakening Russian power. It was our own CIA that helped the Taliban during the Russian occupation of Afghanistan, perhaps not foreseeing that they would become terrorists and harbor Islamic terrorists or so focused on fighting communism that future problems were ignored.

We need both a new military philosophy and we need to start dighting our real problems like climate warming. We have never been successful at nation building (look at the disasters in Central America). We need a new approach.

calimary

(81,179 posts)
45. You just made me think of a new way to view republi-CONS.
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 12:38 PM
Aug 2021

“From Joe McCarthy to Kevin McCarthy.”

Good grief. They’ve learned NOTHING. The question then becomes “have we?”

Mopar151

(9,976 posts)
56. Time for a template check:
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 04:15 PM
Aug 2021

"The Devil's Chessboard" is a biography of Allen Dulles, founder of the CIA, and "The man who betrayed 5 presidents". His philosophy was, in brief, that exploitation of other countries by American (business) interests WAS our national interest. Democracies were a threat to the abilities of United Fruit, Standard Oil, and The Morgan Bank to pillage and loot local economies.



Often, the plan revolved around toppling a struggling democracy, and installation of a puppet state, led by an ethnic or religious minority who considered their "side" to be the "rightful" rulers.

DENVERPOPS

(8,802 posts)
46. Thank you kpete
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 01:04 PM
Aug 2021

I think this is the best post EVER on DU. Period

And also the best comments..........

The MIC, the comments about Cheney, the reference to PNAC, all of it.......

My thinking about the last forty plus years would be:

“While The Nation Slept” .....................

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
51. What these past 20 years have meant to Afghans and their culture is not something
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 01:21 PM
Aug 2021

that can be known now. They're not just a lot more sophisticated and aware of what the 21st century offers now than in 1999, many have been carrying smartphones -- living "smartphone lives" for much or most of that time. Population has been exploding in that period, and urbanization has come to people who can remember when there was no large city in the entire nation. Their expectations have changed. What a Taliban version of Islamic government will do with this somewhat changed Islamic population, and vice versa,...?

Hekate

(90,616 posts)
54. This is incredibly powerful. I hope Laura Jedeed finds a writing gig, or writes a book...
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 03:08 PM
Aug 2021

Some of what she says from experience confirms my observations over the years: That we use people and abandon them. That America has forgotten what it means to keep our word — not with guns and bombs, but by protecting the people who helped us at risk of themselves and their families’ lives.

It is bitter to read it laid out like this. It is important that as many people as possible read it.

Stay safe, Ms Jedeed, and truly, thank you for your service and for speaking the truth.

To recap a once-popular postscript at DU: F**k George Bush and Dick Cheney.

rumleyfips

(27 posts)
62. History
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 04:59 PM
Aug 2021

Nothing changes : I've flogged you and I've flayed you but by the living god that made you , youre a better man than I an Gunga Din.

MOMFUDSKI

(5,474 posts)
65. Being age 73 and living thru Vietnam and losing a best friend to that bullshit war
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 06:22 PM
Aug 2021

all I have to say, again, is "What if they gave a war and nobody came?". War is a racket that makes certain people rich. And those folks don't give a rat's ass about you young men/women. You'll always be cannon fodder so maybe just don't show up next time. I am just disgusted and ANGRY today. That is all.

milan755803

(16 posts)
66. an old saying
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 07:06 PM
Aug 2021

I am reminded of the saying that "old men make wars, young men fight them". we now have to include "young women" as well.

Martin68

(22,776 posts)
69. I beg to differ. We needed to root Al Qaeda out of Afghanistan. But then we let our ambitions and
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 10:44 PM
Aug 2021

idealism override the lessons of history. We thought we could "save" Afghanistan by giving democracy a chance to take root - against the advice of every single historian who has any knowledge of the country's history. Now we are suffering the consequences of our hubris. It did indeed have meaning: it meant the road to hell is paved with the good intentions of those who have no clue about the reality in a country like Afghanistan. Or Vietnam. Or Iran. Or El Salvador. Or Chile. Or....

Moebym

(989 posts)
72. Why must we be the world's morality police?
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 10:56 PM
Aug 2021

Last edited Mon Aug 16, 2021, 11:47 PM - Edit history (2)

Some people in the West live in some fantasy world in which we can swoop in to any nation on Earth, magically grant oppressed people Western-style democracy and values - because we're morally superior and all - and have them embrace us with tears of joy in their eyes.

That's straight out of a comic book. We, however, live in the real world, where our presence (military, especially) in a foreign country is NOT always welcome and indeed can make an already terrible situation worse. Let's not even go into how our own sordid history of racism and our fragile democracy are not exactly setting a great example for the rest of the world.

As I said in a comment on Daily Kos, people who think like that are engaging in White Savior Syndrome, which is hardly any better than the Taliban's ideology, and might even be worse because it's just another form of imperialism cloaked in the guise of good intentions.

To borrow a Biden-ism, "This is not who we are. We are better than this."

peppertree

(21,614 posts)
70. Except, of course: $$$$
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 10:49 PM
Aug 2021

Many an oceanfront mansion must have been built or bought with Afghan War loot, contractor-related and otherwise.

Aussie105

(5,366 posts)
71. Could this be a turning point in American foreign policy?
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 10:51 PM
Aug 2021

Does it sink in yet?

Sending troops overseas based on abstract ideological foundations never works?

Foreigners will always see the presence of American soldiers in their country as an invasion, and react accordingly?

Those who cooperated did so for their own reasons, be it money or power, not because they wanted the same thing for their country as America. They didn't, they don't.

But Afghanistan . . . more a collection of tribal lands rather than a unified country.

The presence of foreign boots on the ground gave them a reason to unite against a common foe.
Will they now fragment back into tribal conflict?

Will the country as a whole regress even further, stone age perhaps?

But if you want to be callous - Afghanistan is the concern of Afghanis, not Americans. Let them sort it out themselves.

Or was Afghanistan and all the other overseas wars just a 'Look! Squirrel!' thing to take heat off domestic problems?



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