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No wonder Pres. Biden is so pissed. (Original Post) DURHAM D Aug 2021 OP
Believing Ghani or Taliban won't play well, if true. Hoyt Aug 2021 #1
So we shouldn't even believe our own intelligence agencies? SunSeeker Aug 2021 #14
If they said that, then they need to go. That's serious incompetence. Hoyt Aug 2021 #16
So you're blaming Biden for listening to his intelligence agencies? SunSeeker Aug 2021 #19
Sunseeker, Biden knows where the buck stops and hoping he'll find a solution other Hoyt Aug 2021 #20
Of course the buck stops with him. But Biden made the right decision with the info he had. SunSeeker Aug 2021 #21
The info he had included knowing his intelligence is suspect at this point. Hoyt Aug 2021 #22
How the fuck do you expect a President to make decisions if he can't believe in intelligence info? SunSeeker Aug 2021 #23
That's what the hell they get elected for, not to make mistakes without criticism. Hoyt Aug 2021 #24
His decision was the best he could have done under the circumstances. SunSeeker Aug 2021 #25
Sorry. I'm disappointed. Decision to withdraw was past due. Plan execution Hoyt Aug 2021 #26
So now you think he withdrew too slowly? That his decision was "past due"? SunSeeker Aug 2021 #27
No, Sunseeker, I think he failed to see/prepare for what many -- including here -- say Hoyt Aug 2021 #28
Of course he knew what was inevitable. What he didn't know was what little time he had to evacuate. SunSeeker Aug 2021 #30
Trump gutted the pentagon and CIA as well as the state dept. BlueLucy Aug 2021 #41
Moving the goalposts with unsupported assertions, eh? LanternWaste Aug 2021 #42
WRONG! CrackityJones75 Aug 2021 #35
In this case, his advisors failed. Hoyt Aug 2021 #36
Sure. Maybe. CrackityJones75 Aug 2021 #37
We'll seevif he gets rid of advisors who were that wrong. Hoyt Aug 2021 #43
Only for a two-week ceasefire... regnaD kciN Aug 2021 #2
True edhopper Aug 2021 #3
The Taliban were already advancing before the president fled. Baitball Blogger Aug 2021 #4
Nobody trusts the Taliban IronLionZion Aug 2021 #5
Sorry to say, nobody trust the US either ashredux Aug 2021 #12
Sorry, there is no reason for more Americans to die in this war that never should have happened. Demsrule86 Aug 2021 #17
You think Afghanis equate the U.S. with the Taliban? Or imagine we do? Hortensis Aug 2021 #32
No, I don't think that. It this was foreshadowed by History. It was doomed from the start of the ashredux Aug 2021 #33
But, ashredux, it's a fantasy that we invaded to build a democracy by Hortensis Aug 2021 #38
We didn't need to build a damn thing...go in and get the guys who took down our buildings, kill them ashredux Aug 2021 #39
:) Starting to feel circular around here, but got the idea. Hortensis Aug 2021 #40
And no one trusted TRUMP Trueblue1968 Aug 2021 #29
They knew it was a bad plan IronLionZion Aug 2021 #31
Take the money and run peppertree Aug 2021 #6
Seems the Taliban were trying to negotiate something Warpy Aug 2021 #7
I am sure a LOT of American dollars made the trip as well ashredux Aug 2021 #34
Rt TY.. Cha Aug 2021 #8
Lying thieves or lying murderers? You can't trust any one of them on either side dalton99a Aug 2021 #9
So he used the same Sgent Aug 2021 #10
So the RW bitching about Pres Biden being quiet yesterday irisblue Aug 2021 #11
when did ghani leave the country? nt orleans Aug 2021 #13
Sunday Celerity Aug 2021 #15
And he fled with a bunch of cash. SunSeeker Aug 2021 #18

SunSeeker

(51,522 posts)
14. So we shouldn't even believe our own intelligence agencies?
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 09:58 PM
Aug 2021

Our intelligence agencies said the Afghan army would not collapse for 18 months:


The Pentagon had issued dire warnings to Mr. Biden even before he took office about the potential for the Taliban to overrun the Afghan army, but intelligence estimates, now shown to have badly missed the mark, assessed it might happen in 18 months, not weeks.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/14/us/afghanistan-biden.html
 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
16. If they said that, then they need to go. That's serious incompetence.
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 10:20 PM
Aug 2021

But the final decision was . . . . . .

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
20. Sunseeker, Biden knows where the buck stops and hoping he'll find a solution other
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 11:04 PM
Aug 2021

than blaming everyone else.

SunSeeker

(51,522 posts)
21. Of course the buck stops with him. But Biden made the right decision with the info he had.
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 11:08 PM
Aug 2021

The Monday morning quarterbacking is really unhelpful at this point.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
22. The info he had included knowing his intelligence is suspect at this point.
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 11:10 PM
Aug 2021

BTW. I was editing my post while you were responding, just in case there is something else you don’t agree with.

SunSeeker

(51,522 posts)
23. How the fuck do you expect a President to make decisions if he can't believe in intelligence info?
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 11:13 PM
Aug 2021

A president has no rational basis for going with anything other than what his intelligence professionals tell him.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
24. That's what the hell they get elected for, not to make mistakes without criticism.
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 11:16 PM
Aug 2021

I’m not going to vote for a GOPer under any circumstance, but damnit, when you are elected by over half the voters, you are expected to make it right. I think he will.

SunSeeker

(51,522 posts)
25. His decision was the best he could have done under the circumstances.
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 11:30 PM
Aug 2021

Like I said, the Monday morning quarterbacking is not helpful. He wasn't elected to be a punching bag, particularly his fellow Dems.
Of course he should try to manage this cluster fuck as best as he can, now that it is clear our intelligence was wrong. But I don't think ANY human being can "make it right" at this point. Afghanistan is a medieval tribal theocracy. The best we can do at this point is to accept Afghan refugees, particularly women.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
26. Sorry. I'm disappointed. Decision to withdraw was past due. Plan execution
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 11:32 PM
Aug 2021

not admirable at this point.

SunSeeker

(51,522 posts)
27. So now you think he withdrew too slowly? That his decision was "past due"?
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 11:41 PM
Aug 2021

Lamenting over how disappointed you are in someone who did the best he could do under the circumstances 6 months into his presidency is just not helpful. It just feeds the right wing hate machine.

I normally agree with your posts, but I am really not with you on your Monday morning quarterbacking here.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
28. No, Sunseeker, I think he failed to see/prepare for what many -- including here -- say
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 11:57 PM
Aug 2021

was INEVITABLE. And he said there wouldn’t be a problem just a few days before there was a problem.

You can blame his intelligence team, but I have faith Biden recognizes his mistake. Ordering 6000 troops is proof enough of that. Now, let’s hope that and next steps help.

SunSeeker

(51,522 posts)
30. Of course he knew what was inevitable. What he didn't know was what little time he had to evacuate.
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 01:15 AM
Aug 2021

And of course he realizes now that the intelligence he was given that he had 18 months was badly mistaken. I trust Biden will now do whatever he can to save as many Afghans as he can.

 

CrackityJones75

(2,403 posts)
35. WRONG!
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 09:46 AM
Aug 2021

The president is not supposed to make decision by his gut feeling. That is what rulers do! That is what Trump did.

You listen to your advisors and your intelligence agencies.

regnaD kciN

(26,044 posts)
2. Only for a two-week ceasefire...
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 07:19 PM
Aug 2021

The Taliban would simply have run out the clock on that while boosting their forces and continued their advance as soon as it ran out.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
32. You think Afghanis equate the U.S. with the Taliban? Or imagine we do?
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 09:09 AM
Aug 2021

Don't get carried away by the singularity of the media attention to the plight of Afghanis who now fear their own government and people and that we won't be evacuating up to 80,000 of them. Venal issue decisions, journalists' concern for those they know trying to get out, and opportunity to slam the Democratic administration intersect to produce it.

A foreign journalist was pointing out that when the media stop covering our responsibility, we stop caring, our frivolous attention will turn elsewhere, and pressure on our government to bring out more people will go "poof!" So those who know and care about Afghanis in trouble, and those whose agenda is electing Republicans, are pushing it hard while they can.

As another example, remember Puerto Rico? It was still early days for their suffering and dying when they lost our interest. To the Las Vegas shooter. Poof! And then on to something else, but never back to the enormous story of our fellow citizens in PR as the betrayals by the tRump (our) government continued.

ashredux

(2,599 posts)
33. No, I don't think that. It this was foreshadowed by History. It was doomed from the start of the
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 09:41 AM
Aug 2021

The lie was we would “build” a democracy there…All we did was line the pockets of the War Mongers and crooked politicians…

This was Vietnam Redux…

I was in the 101st in the early 70s….now I buy T-shirts from Vietnam and Americans vacation there!

It was folly there and it was a bigger folly in Afghanistan….

That is what I’m saying

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
38. But, ashredux, it's a fantasy that we invaded to build a democracy by
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 05:04 PM
Aug 2021

advancing Afghan culture into the (Western) enlightenment of the 21st century, or that that would be possible.

Bush and company invaded both to fight terrorism and prevail over other nations struggling for power in that part of the world. The problem isn't that we were doomed to fail to achieve our limited goals, we didn't fail, but that there would never be an end to it. That was known going in, though, and every administration since looked, not for a way to save Afghanistan from its own culture, but for a point to get out.

Meanwhile, over our protracted stay, we did help build some needed infrastructure, including schools and reservoirs, etc, and try to help Afghanistan become more functional, but in furtherance of realistic and practical goals. We were able to help some open some doors for themselves where allowed.

Fwiw, we've succeeded in 20 years without major external terrorist damage to our nation. Al-Queda smashed, ISIS driven into a corner before being rescued by tRump. Instead, our greatest current threat is similar to Afghanistan's and many other nations' -- internal from our own RW extremists.

As for what western well wishers hoped for, at this point we can't know what lasting effects the U.S. presence will have had on Afghanistan's culture. We know it won't be nothing. Afghanistan has changed over this period due to larger forces that are changing the entire planet. Population explosion, urbanization, climate devastation, disappearing water and farmland, displaced people. Internet, smart phones, solar power. New expectations. But the t-shirt effect for now will still be on a very impoverished, mostly extremely conservative, still mostly quasi-medieval society where Islam is still involved in all aspects of life. It's probable that grave troubles from climate change alone assisted the Taliban's return to power by increasing fears and need for strong leadership. Who knows? Maybe the Taliban will establish Afghanistan's first-ever successful central government capable of addressing big problems.

It does seem that we could have paid much less to the Afghan government and gotten as much for us and them, but no doubt we got most of what we agreed to pay for at the time.

ashredux

(2,599 posts)
39. We didn't need to build a damn thing...go in and get the guys who took down our buildings, kill them
Tue Aug 17, 2021, 05:27 PM
Aug 2021

All the rest was folly...lined the pockets of the Military Industrial Complex and yes, that is a real thing.

We spent a TON OF MONEY...it was wasted. Damn crime....

Warpy

(111,169 posts)
7. Seems the Taliban were trying to negotiate something
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 09:24 PM
Aug 2021

I can't blame Ghani for flying to coop under the circumstances, but it does put a wrench into the works while pissing everybody who wanted any sort of transition off.

IOW, the Taliban are likely to get worse fast.

Sgent

(5,857 posts)
10. So he used the same
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 09:36 PM
Aug 2021

playbook as his ANA. Unless we had promised him asylum, immunity, and exfiltration, I don't blame him.

irisblue

(32,932 posts)
11. So the RW bitching about Pres Biden being quiet yesterday
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 09:36 PM
Aug 2021

was him doing HIS DAMN JOB at Camp David instead of twitter whining.

Huh imagine that.

SunSeeker

(51,522 posts)
18. And he fled with a bunch of cash.
Mon Aug 16, 2021, 10:53 PM
Aug 2021

I don't blame him for fleeing, but it's the gift and lying that's unforgivable. His duplicity probably cost many Afghans their lives. Looks like he was just going through the motions on those talks just so he could gather up all the cash he could get his hands on.

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