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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHoyt
(54,770 posts)SunSeeker
(51,522 posts)Our intelligence agencies said the Afghan army would not collapse for 18 months:
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)But the final decision was . . . . . .
SunSeeker
(51,522 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)than blaming everyone else.
SunSeeker
(51,522 posts)The Monday morning quarterbacking is really unhelpful at this point.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)BTW. I was editing my post while you were responding, just in case there is something else you dont agree with.
SunSeeker
(51,522 posts)A president has no rational basis for going with anything other than what his intelligence professionals tell him.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Im not going to vote for a GOPer under any circumstance, but damnit, when you are elected by over half the voters, you are expected to make it right. I think he will.
SunSeeker
(51,522 posts)Like I said, the Monday morning quarterbacking is not helpful. He wasn't elected to be a punching bag, particularly his fellow Dems.
Of course he should try to manage this cluster fuck as best as he can, now that it is clear our intelligence was wrong. But I don't think ANY human being can "make it right" at this point. Afghanistan is a medieval tribal theocracy. The best we can do at this point is to accept Afghan refugees, particularly women.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)not admirable at this point.
SunSeeker
(51,522 posts)Lamenting over how disappointed you are in someone who did the best he could do under the circumstances 6 months into his presidency is just not helpful. It just feeds the right wing hate machine.
I normally agree with your posts, but I am really not with you on your Monday morning quarterbacking here.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)was INEVITABLE. And he said there wouldnt be a problem just a few days before there was a problem.
You can blame his intelligence team, but I have faith Biden recognizes his mistake. Ordering 6000 troops is proof enough of that. Now, lets hope that and next steps help.
SunSeeker
(51,522 posts)And of course he realizes now that the intelligence he was given that he had 18 months was badly mistaken. I trust Biden will now do whatever he can to save as many Afghans as he can.
BlueLucy
(1,609 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Doesn't fly.
CrackityJones75
(2,403 posts)The president is not supposed to make decision by his gut feeling. That is what rulers do! That is what Trump did.
You listen to your advisors and your intelligence agencies.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)CrackityJones75
(2,403 posts)But that doesnt mean he should just do what he wants.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)regnaD kciN
(26,044 posts)The Taliban would simply have run out the clock on that while boosting their forces and continued their advance as soon as it ran out.
but it would have given us more time to evacuate Afghani's.
Baitball Blogger
(46,684 posts)IronLionZion
(45,380 posts)they do have a long history of murder and duplicity
ashredux
(2,599 posts)Demsrule86
(68,471 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Don't get carried away by the singularity of the media attention to the plight of Afghanis who now fear their own government and people and that we won't be evacuating up to 80,000 of them. Venal issue decisions, journalists' concern for those they know trying to get out, and opportunity to slam the Democratic administration intersect to produce it.
A foreign journalist was pointing out that when the media stop covering our responsibility, we stop caring, our frivolous attention will turn elsewhere, and pressure on our government to bring out more people will go "poof!" So those who know and care about Afghanis in trouble, and those whose agenda is electing Republicans, are pushing it hard while they can.
As another example, remember Puerto Rico? It was still early days for their suffering and dying when they lost our interest. To the Las Vegas shooter. Poof! And then on to something else, but never back to the enormous story of our fellow citizens in PR as the betrayals by the tRump (our) government continued.
ashredux
(2,599 posts)The lie was we would build a democracy there
All we did was line the pockets of the War Mongers and crooked politicians
This was Vietnam Redux
I was in the 101st in the early 70s
.now I buy T-shirts from Vietnam and Americans vacation there!
It was folly there and it was a bigger folly in Afghanistan
.
That is what Im saying
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)advancing Afghan culture into the (Western) enlightenment of the 21st century, or that that would be possible.
Bush and company invaded both to fight terrorism and prevail over other nations struggling for power in that part of the world. The problem isn't that we were doomed to fail to achieve our limited goals, we didn't fail, but that there would never be an end to it. That was known going in, though, and every administration since looked, not for a way to save Afghanistan from its own culture, but for a point to get out.
Meanwhile, over our protracted stay, we did help build some needed infrastructure, including schools and reservoirs, etc, and try to help Afghanistan become more functional, but in furtherance of realistic and practical goals. We were able to help some open some doors for themselves where allowed.
Fwiw, we've succeeded in 20 years without major external terrorist damage to our nation. Al-Queda smashed, ISIS driven into a corner before being rescued by tRump. Instead, our greatest current threat is similar to Afghanistan's and many other nations' -- internal from our own RW extremists.
As for what western well wishers hoped for, at this point we can't know what lasting effects the U.S. presence will have had on Afghanistan's culture. We know it won't be nothing. Afghanistan has changed over this period due to larger forces that are changing the entire planet. Population explosion, urbanization, climate devastation, disappearing water and farmland, displaced people. Internet, smart phones, solar power. New expectations. But the t-shirt effect for now will still be on a very impoverished, mostly extremely conservative, still mostly quasi-medieval society where Islam is still involved in all aspects of life. It's probable that grave troubles from climate change alone assisted the Taliban's return to power by increasing fears and need for strong leadership. Who knows? Maybe the Taliban will establish Afghanistan's first-ever successful central government capable of addressing big problems.
It does seem that we could have paid much less to the Afghan government and gotten as much for us and them, but no doubt we got most of what we agreed to pay for at the time.
ashredux
(2,599 posts)All the rest was folly...lined the pockets of the Military Industrial Complex and yes, that is a real thing.
We spent a TON OF MONEY...it was wasted. Damn crime....
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Trueblue1968
(17,194 posts)IronLionZion
(45,380 posts)or they would have done the withdrawal before the election
peppertree
(21,604 posts)Warpy
(111,169 posts)I can't blame Ghani for flying to coop under the circumstances, but it does put a wrench into the works while pissing everybody who wanted any sort of transition off.
IOW, the Taliban are likely to get worse fast.
ashredux
(2,599 posts)Cha
(296,875 posts)dalton99a
(81,406 posts)Sgent
(5,857 posts)playbook as his ANA. Unless we had promised him asylum, immunity, and exfiltration, I don't blame him.
irisblue
(32,932 posts)was him doing HIS DAMN JOB at Camp David instead of twitter whining.
Huh imagine that.
orleans
(34,042 posts)SunSeeker
(51,522 posts)I don't blame him for fleeing, but it's the gift and lying that's unforgivable. His duplicity probably cost many Afghans their lives. Looks like he was just going through the motions on those talks just so he could gather up all the cash he could get his hands on.