General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsJust curious, is ANYONE here in favor of US Military Intervention if China invades Taiwan?
You know, facing off with the nuclear capable PRC Army?
Who gets to line up to die? Do parents approve?
My son was in the USAF.
I wouldn't approve if he were still in. He would think it's dumb.
In the 21st Century, wouldn't it be 110% more effective IF the PRC invades Taiwan, to just lock up ALL Chinese dollars in the USA and ban imports from China for a year or three?
EDIT: To add, the Taiwanese Military is highly trained and highly motivated. They're well equipped and deadly.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)If that isn't possible I don't know what course they should take. Taiwan is prosperous and free. It would be nice to see it remain that way.
marble falls
(57,079 posts)WarGamer
(12,437 posts)Economic Sanctions can cripple them.
Midnight Writer
(21,751 posts)Sancho
(9,067 posts)WarGamer
(12,437 posts)They're HARDCORE pro-Independence.
Sancho
(9,067 posts)Exactly what that would look like is unknown.
WarGamer
(12,437 posts)A US Aircraft Carrier Strike Group, I don't think so.
marble falls
(57,079 posts)... together with foreign experts.
After we left the 'Nam, they kicked the People's Army's ass twice. Thoroughly and undeniably. I think if Viet Nam is tough, Taiwan is case hardened steel.
Not overly worried by this happening.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)Taiwan has a strong national identity and they would call upon the world to help them. And the world would. China isn't stupid so this scenario is super unlikely. But then again so was Trump being President... still, it would be a very swift and easy war. The US is also very close if it doesn't already have it, to having full ABM which makes it purely folly to fuck with the US in any capacity.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)I dont think they will invade and risk war.
WarGamer
(12,437 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)BumRushDaShow
(128,883 posts)to come up with how to deal with Taiwan in the future.
Both are money-making entities that they certainly don't want to lose.
stillcool
(32,626 posts)I'm not a multi-national corporation whose bottom line is linked to geo-political instability.
bluecollar2
(3,622 posts)cornball 24
(1,475 posts)DFW
(54,358 posts)I know that the PRC would have no interest in the place if they had to lay waste to the country first and then rebuild it later.
I also suspect, though I have no evidence of this at all, that Taiwan has a small secret arsenal of nuclear weapons, which they plan to absolutely never use unless the PRC takes the overt action of trying to take the island by force. Knowing they could mount a fierce defense that would nonetheless eventually be overcome by a vastly superior PRC force, I think that a doomed Taiwan would send nukes to both Beijing and Shanghai in a last dying act of defiance, and that they have let Beijing know that in no uncertain terms.
Dial H For Hero
(2,971 posts)Taiwan possesses much of the technological expertise necessary to develop nuclear weapons, but would face significant obstacles in doing sonamely, U.S. opposition, international pressure, and the threat of a pre-emptive strike by China. Recent assessments indicate that it would take Taiwan between one and eight years to develop a complete nuclear warhead, and most likely much longer to design one light enough to be carried by any of Taiwan's current land-attack missiles. Regardless, most analysts agree that under the current political situation, Taiwan is very unlikely to pursue a nuclear weapons capability.
DFW
(54,358 posts)However, the conventional wisdom of ten years ago didn't account for the PRC's huge territorial expansion, particularly when it came to building military bases on artificial atolls being expanded by land reclamation all over the western Pacific. Ten years ago, in the case of an invasion, Taiwan would have been facing an attack from one front. Now, it would be facing an assault from all sides. I think that the fact that a secret nuclear capacity is highly unlikely is precisely why they might feel they could get away with a clandestine one. It would have to be EXTREMELY clandestine, as their military is almost surely penetrated by moles from the mainland. I see nukes as their means of last resort, and I doubt the mainland wants them to feel the slightest desire to use them.
My most-likely scenario for a successful takeover of Taiwan by the mainland is the strategy Putin tried on us--infiltrate their political parties with sympathizers/moles, poison the domestic political atmosphere to the point that the government is politically neutralized, a mole (witting or unwitting) gets to be head of state, and he hands Beijing the keys to the realm without Beijing having to fire as much as a single shot.
If it comes to a shooting war, both sides lose. Taiwan would only get involved in something like that as a last ditch act of desperation, and they see their independence as good as lost. Under that scenario, I think they would not hesitate to take as much of the PRC down with them as they possibly could.
brush
(53,771 posts)zonemaster
(232 posts)It'll be 10x worse if China and Taiwan get into it. Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (a.k.a. - TSMC) is the largest and most influential semiconductor fab on the planet. They dwarf their nearest competitor by a factor of 3 in annual revenue. Many, many companies that have their chips manufactured there would be in dire straits fairly quickly.
https://semiwiki.com/forum/index.php?threads/tsmcs-top-customers-2019-2021.13925/
joetheman
(1,450 posts)they upset that apple cart? China wants no more disruption of trade. China needs the world to keep buying their shit. Several major nations together could boycott China if necessary and if they would stick together. China is more interested in status-quo, stability. COVID already upset their long-range plans. But since the west is so attached to money and "things" it would be difficult to get the unity it would take to take on China.
Sgent
(5,857 posts)I would also be in favor (at ROC's request) of stationing US nuclear capable ballistic missiles on Taiwan, although I wouldn't clarify if they which type of warhead was attached. IDK if we have a formal treaty obligation with them like we do with Japan, but I would consider an attack on Taiwan to be a similar level of aggressiveness.
Given the almost irreplaceable TSMC, and the location of Samsung, a China invasion of Taiwan could easily trigger WW III.
elevator
(415 posts)I'm feeling the world is more irreplaceable than Samsung. But, just my personal opinion.
Caliman73
(11,733 posts)Other than that, your point is valid.
elevator
(415 posts)I didn't say it was in Taiwan.
OhioBlue
(5,126 posts)Dude - have you not seen the behavior of the American public over the past year and a half? They cannot handle a single flippin' inconvenience. I see people freaking out on social media because the fast food drive through isn't open. They freaked the f*** out because they couldn't have a party or go to a bar or go shopping at the mall. They would completely fall apart over not being able to buy cheap Chinese stuff. Not to mention all of the essential imports that come from China - Medical equipment, PPE, manufacturing components, etc.
To answer your initial question, I would not support US Military intervention if it meant boots on the ground.
Johonny
(20,836 posts)it's likely to trigger alliances and we'd likely be pulled into the war. I don't see how we wouldn't.
cinematicdiversions
(1,969 posts)Just as I would if the Russia invaded Estonia or Poland.
The United States has allies it will stand behind.
No need to embrace eternal defeatism and cowardice.
Celerity
(43,330 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)We are obligated to come to the defense of every member including Poland. Should we renounce our treaties with Japan and South Korea because we are obliged to come to their defense too?
Celerity
(43,330 posts)accepted nation states, which Taiwan most definitely is not.
The 1971 UN vote (Resolution 2758) that expelled Taiwan.
Green = In favour, Red = Against, Blue = Non-voting, Yellow = Abstention, Grey = Non-UN-members or dependencies.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Celerity
(43,330 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)It's hard to say Orban and Erdogan are small d democratic leaders. Tsai Ing-wen is. That's different than my opinion on this topic. I'm humble enough to not give a glib answer.
Celerity
(43,330 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)I would argue Trrump was America's first autocratic leader.
Celerity
(43,330 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)The Republicans are not a normal political party anymore. At least the Conservative party in the UK pays lip service to liberal democratic norms.
soryang
(3,299 posts)....because the possibility of an early embarrassing tactical losses of US forces would prompt the inclination to use or threaten to use tactical nuclear weapons. Even if the US was successful in early stages of a military conflict with China, it would only be round one.
Fighting over Taiwan is a very bad idea. Lyle Goldstein, a Naval War College instructor with expertise in Chinese military capabilities, thinks the Chinese are in a superior position with respect to a potential conventional war over Taiwan. So does retired Admiral Bill Owens. Consequently they recommend a more thoughtful diplomatic approach which doesn't seem to be in vogue here in the US.
Goldstein and Owens have pointed out that the US cant win a conventional war over this Chinese matter, therefore they should stop poking China in the eye over it. Goldstein argues it isnt a matter of US strategic interest, so why would you start what could escalate into a general war over it? Owens former Deputy JCS argues the whole thing is negotiable. In fact, we had reached an understanding with the Chinese and maintained strategic ambiguity over the defense commitment, and of late, appear to have abandoned that approach, destabilizing the situation. The real issue here are the roll back advocates at the Pentagon and on the Hill that have the poorly informed view that the US is in a position to dictate to China. Its a delusion. It is curious to me that roll back people who resemble conservatives from the cold war period who fought to a draw in Korea, and suffered a loss in Vietnam, think they'll fair much better with a much stronger China.
With respect to US operations close to China, the Chinese reaction is to conduct substantial military operations after US and allied forces leave the area. The Art of War presents the principle that the one who fights at extended ranges is at a disadvantage. It doesnt really matter what conventional force multiplier one imagines that one has. The one who first knows the measure of far and near wins. So when the front is prepared, the rear is lacking, and when the rear is prepared the front is lacking, preparedness on the left, means lack on the right, preparedness on the right, means lack on the left. Preparedness everywhere means lack everywhere. So the Pentagon budget is never enough. I think the operational and budget impulse here is to try to aim at a continuous substantial US military presence close to China.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)Celerity
(43,330 posts)Gore1FL
(21,128 posts)I see them threatening that. (We've all seen that.) I am not sure how the cost/benefit ever works out.
Calculating
(2,955 posts)China absolutely cannot be allowed to take it by force. The Chinese government is evil and they view freedom across the world as a threat to their plan to control everything and everyone. It burns them seeing a successful free country right on their border, made up of what are basically other Chinese people.
Ethics aside, Taiwan is incredibly important to the world. If china invades and tsmc/other chipmaking foundries get destroyed it will send the world into the worst chip shortage ever imagined. Imagine not being able to buy new tech devices for years...
China need to understand in no uncertain terms that Taiwan is off the table, if they really want to invade someone we can always let them have Afghanistan haha 😂
panader0
(25,816 posts)as the island was named until the end of WWII. As part of my report, I wrote to Chiang Kai Shek
to get info. I was sent an large envelope of stuff including a signed letter by Chiang.
The Chinese may saber-rattle a bit, but I don't think they would consider an invasion. Taiwan,
the Republic of China, would get support from the US, Australia, Canada, Japan and many other nations
to keep mainland China from such a move.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Today Taiwan is a thriving and stable liberal democracy.
Polybius
(15,390 posts)The worlds needs a free Taiwan.
Celerity
(43,330 posts)Massive
God forbid someone disagrees.
Celerity
(43,330 posts)BlueCheeseAgain
(1,654 posts)But I hope this question remains hypothetical.
David__77
(23,372 posts)Not in anything like the present day situation.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)Do you want to live under Chinese rule?
Polybius
(15,390 posts)And even if we failed to repel them from taking Taiwan, you think they would come here and beat us in our own land?
Calculating
(2,955 posts)We would lose? Even if we failed at beating them over there, they would have no hope of invading our homeland. I mean hell, we have over a hundred million gun owners with AR15s and stuff running around who would love shoot some REAL commies. I might be worried if we shared a border with them and they could just send tens of millions of troops over, but we're separated by an ocean which would severely limit their ability to get men and supplies over here.
malaise
(268,949 posts)That is all
Voltaire2
(13,021 posts)Short of using nukes, in which case nobody would win, my understanding is that the war gaming around a south china war is basically a disaster for us.
That said, the Chinese government plays the long game, and the long game with Taiwan is to wait for them to come back to China. There is no rush.
sarisataka
(18,615 posts)Which ironically is the best way to prevent the situation from happening.
Dial H For Hero
(2,971 posts)1) To begin with, I consider such a war highly unlikely given the negative impact it would have upon the world economy, and thus the Chinese economy as well.
2). Our role in such a conflict would almost certainly be limited to air and naval forces.
3). I consider the conflict going nuclear to be extraordinarily unlikely. In the event that does happen, the world economy will be crippled for generations.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Calculating
(2,955 posts)They aren't stupid where they would risk WW3 and the end of the modern age over Taiwan, however if we give the appearance of weakness then they sure might try something assuming we would just sit out and let them have it.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)I wouldn't want that responsibility but glib talk of capitulation won't ensure peace.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Taiwan has a Freedom House score of 94, which is higher than most of the world and significantly higher than ours.
https://freedomhouse.org/country/taiwan/freedom-world/2021
lark
(23,094 posts)Although I'm sure repugs will push for tis hard. They just lost their money maker in Afghanistan and they will want to replace it fast.
Happy Hoosier
(7,294 posts)I mean, do we have any red lines? I'm serious. If China is just permitted to roll over Taiwan, they will have factored in surviving sanctions and anyone who thinks otherwise is naïve.
The ONLY reasons they haven't taken Taiwan by force is that at least for now, they view the military price-tag and risk of broader, potentially nuclear consequences, as being too high.
Yes, the Taiwanese military is capable. Even without us, it would be no picnic for Chinese. But the numbers would eventually overwhelm Taiwan.
Calculating
(2,955 posts)Anyone remember when Germany started taking over their neighbors and how the world tried ignoring it at first? Why would anyone think China would stop with Taiwan? Next would be the Philippines, vietnam, South Korea, etc.