Rachel just explained in detail something I had read just a little about recently but had never

[Atticus]

fully understood.

The rapid collapse of the Afghanistan Army did not "just happen"; it was the result of negotiated surrenders or abandonments of posts.

When Trump and Pompeo cut their deal with the Taliban in Doha in February of 2020, they promised that the US military would leave Afghanistan in May of 2021. According to several Afghanistan Army officers, negotiations with the Taliban began in small villages and steadily expanded to districts, cities and regions. Essentially, the large majority of Afghan military personnel had already agreed to lay down their arms by the time President Biden withdrew the small 2500 man force Trump left in Afghanistan.

It was a "done deal"; signed and sealed between the Afghan Army and the Taliban as soon as Trump, the "Great Negotiator", in February of 2020, bound the United States to depart in May of this year.

This needs to be repeated a dozen times a day by any journalist worthy of the title and every GOP 2022 candidate should be asked to comment about it.

[questionseverything]

1. So why didn't the president know this?

N/t

[Atticus]

3. Like many of the details, I don't know that. I assume though, that this would be information that

both sides of the "deal" would take great pains to conceal.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

9. Know what? Re-read post twice.... Not sure what we

are even asking, telling, whatever here. Maybe someone can please explain. Every thing was in flux, trump signed deal it would be over, we'd be out by May 2021. Is there some insinuation I'm missing?

[jimfields33]

16. Leaving isn't the issue. How we are leaving is.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

19. Of course... We got blindsided. Poor Ops and we

believed the devil incarnate and his buddies.

[jimfields33]

22. Yeah. How the next two weeks work out will be interesting

I’m hopeful. But I can be naive though too. Somehow I still hope things go well. At this point, I haven’t heard any casualties so that’s a big plus.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

51. Senate Armed Services gonna investigate withdrawal.

[Tommymac]

56. Take the coverage we are getting from the Corporate MSM with several grains of salt.

We are being shown the worst images that play well for ratings and to embarrass President Joe.

Our embassy staff is STILL there processing refugees and American citizens for transport out. They have no immediate plans to leave. As I WRITE this. Is the media covering THAT?

We have frozen the Taliban's Money internationally. THEY ARE BROKE until we release the funds. That is a positive step the Biden administration has taken.

The Taliban has said they are not going to do mass executions at this time - and are in fact saying they are giving 'amnesty' to women and those who worked for the US sponsored former government. Take that for what it is worth - I believe they will not do anything stupid for a little while.

The fact is that we STILL have a big stick to beat them with there on the ground at the airport; and that our general on the ground there has TOLD them to back off.

5000 + American elite troops and many many advanced killer Drones, plus 100's of naval launched cruise missiles within range, are nothing to ignore. Every American GI is the equal to 100 or more Taliban guerillas, and can whip them until they cry for their mothers.

We can turn their country into a wasteland without using WMD's. We just have not wanted to.

Civil Wars are messy. The last few days events are not out of line with a nation withdrawing from a country torn apart by such a thing. Let's wait to see what it REALLY looked like from a few weeks perspective before we judge.

A RESPONSIBLE Media would do that.

[onetexan]

59. Thank you for wording that so eloquently. I've been either ignoring altogether or picking carefully

what i watch in short spurts, and only on MSNBC at that, which has really been terrible at their critiquing of Biden's decision. I primarily read the news sporadically throughout the day. We need to keep harping this is not President Biden's doing. The Con's vengeance was meted after he lost knowing he'd leave a landmine for Biden & his admin to step on. More importantly, there is no nonviolent solution out of this quagmire. It's either rip the bandaid off, be done with it, and leave it for its citizens to stand up for themselves and deal w/ taliban thugs, or continue to occupy an impoverished country where we're not wanted run by corrupt men.
Americans cannot lose anymore lives, countless taxpayer dollars and immense national efforts to a futile war the GOP got us into. its shamed us as promoters of peace and democracy to invade it under the pretense of a lie. We've spent 20 long costly years nation building. The Afghans must want it for themselves.

[Tommymac]

61. Welcome.

I am not an advocate of violence or WAR in any form, unless it is to protect families and real freedom and those who have nothing -i.e. the weak, poor and disadvantaged. Very much a peacemaker.

But I have been a more then casual student of war making and policy all my life - in my view you have to know and understand the positions you oppose as well as those you advocate for.

And war and it's results are messy, dirty, and can never be truly understood as they are happening. There will be plenty of time for blame. Historians will have a field day.

But like any responsible, scientific study, the evidence needs to be gathered and processed before we can really understand it.

If the press was doing it's typical knee jerk reporting, I'd have no issue - but in this case it is a determined effort by all the 1% owned Media to slam Biden for taking away their profits and power.



PS. Anyone looking for a good place to start studying war should pick a copy of Sun Tzu's 'The Art of War'. I believe it can be obtained free from the Amazon Kindle Store, or your local library. It can also apply to life, not just war.

[soldierant]

57. There is no good way to leave.

[Dan]

24. Think about it, the Transition (non-existence transition) between administrations.

In theory, if the original date of May 2021 was kept, Biden would have had even less time.

Trump made a shit-sandwich and the nation was going to eat it.

The difference is - Trump (if re-elected) was going to tell America how good the sandwich was and would have made all kind of comments about Muslims, and how they weren’t our type of people. And, now, we are out of Afghan.

Trump loss, and now he says - look at this shit-sandwich, look out bad it is, and see Biden can’t make it better for us. America cuts and run.

Biden told us a truth, a truth that we may not like - but it’s the shit-sandwich we inherited.

[questionseverything]

27. You are missing my point

The entire country knew for months all this was planned and we don’t have any undercover people to get the info?

[Dan]

31. Oh, I have no doubt that the Biden administration knew -

The military is not stupid, they had plenty of intel - no doubt.

But, what options, maybe they could have started the getting the people out earlier, but in that event - would it have started a panic on the ground?

More troops to stabilize the Afghan forces - after the drawdown, would that have been possible?

Don’t pretend to be the smartest, but I know a shit-sandwich when I see it.

[questionseverything]

34. If he knew why did he keep bringing up the 300,000 troops?

If we knew it was a done deal that makes this horrific exit even worse

[Dan]

36. I'm going to guess

The Afghan army was in theory around 300,000. Adjusting for inflation, maybe 200,00+.

I have no idea what the Taliban fighting force is/was, but given that the Afghan army was going to be fighting a defensive action (before they surrendered) they should have been able to hold for a few months.

But, as I think back to Vietnam - when you don’t have the will to fight, then the fight is gone.

[SunSeeker]

37. The military intelligence agencies were telling Biden he had 18 months.

The Pentagon had issued dire warnings to Mr. Biden even before he took office about the potential for the Taliban to overrun the Afghan army, but intelligence estimates, now shown to have badly missed the mark, assessed it might happen in 18 months, not weeks.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/14/us/afghanistan-biden.html

Biden did not have intelligence that the Afghan army would collapse so quickly, in days and hours, not months.


Sure, you see a shit sandwich now, but hindsight is 20/20. Monday morning quarterbacking is always easy. Try doing it on a Sunday morning. Biden did the best he could with the intelligence he had.

[questionseverything]

48. Idk

Read 39 & 46, those sentiments are all over the net and news

If he didn’t know, he should of

I am not saying this to dis the president but to say he might need different, better advisers

[SunSeeker]

35. Those Afghans jumping on planes at Kabul Airport didn't look like they knew in advance.

So no, I don't think the "entire country knew."

[bucolic_frolic]

54. Why emphasize Trump's role?

Says to me this administration thinks it will be a plus going forward. Public opinion does say voters want us OUT of there.

[maxrandb]

46. He did know

But the only options he had were:

- Send 10's of thousands of new troops to resecure the areas already ceded to the Taliban.

- Leave on the original Donnie Dipshit negotiated date of May 2021

- Do the best that can be done to safely withdraw American, allied and Afghan personnel that helped us.

That's the shit-sandwich Joe Biden was left with.

The MSM and the Retrumplicans Party have been salivating for 7 months for a cudgel they could beat Biden and Democrats with.

I won't help them with that.

I am more focused on how we prevent racist, misogynist, right-wing religious nutjobs from accomplishing what's happened in Afghanistan here in America.

The American Taliban already control all of Americas rural areas.

That should scare the shit out of sane America.

[seta1950]

53. Exactly

Thank you

[Lonestarblue]

49. Remember Trump's frequent destruction of documents?

I suspect that during those months when the dregs of the Trump administration were refusing to grant the Biden teams access to the NSC and the Pentagon that they were busily wiping electronic files and shredding documents. The non-public details of what Trump promised the Taliban have probably been erased. Plus, what better revenge for Trump and his sycophants than to set Biden up for a mess when they knew what the Taliban would do but refused to share that intelligence with the Biden team. And how many Trump holdovers are still part of the intelligence agencies and in a position to withhold or change key information? Trump was especially active in putting his loyalists into key intelligence positions. I’m becoming paranoid when it comes to all things Trump!

[Hortensis]

58. Why WOULD you, or anyone, assume this administration didn't know it?

It was the speed with which the nation finished falling in the last week that surprised, not that it would.

[Lovie777]

2. What I've read . . .

The Taliban and the Pres Ghani had an agreement re: grace period for evacuations but the president left to an undisclosed location outside of the country.

[applegrove]

4. Did the negotiations go on for months or did they go on for weeks?

[Atticus]

5. I am not aware of any timeline, but my impression is that it likely took several months. It

started small ---in rural villages---and steadily expanded to include larger units.

[applegrove]

6. How they kept it so quiet is a story I am sure.

[questionseverything]

20. Where was our intel?

N/t

[crimycarny]

39. Chris Murphy gave some insight on the choice facing Biden

There is no way Americans would have accepted or understood the need to deploy thousands more troops to ensure a safe evacuation. The Democrats would have been the loudest voices protesting the “betrayal” by Biden of sending more troops. The Taliban would not have accepted that either because of Trump’s withdrawal “deal”, so more casualties would have occurred. Americans were lied to for so long about the state of the Afghanistan government do you truly think we would have accepted more troops sent before our eyes were opened to the truth? No way. So the Biden administration hoped for the best and were wrong.

BUT, now Americans are ok with additional troops being deployed to perform the evacuations. We wouldn’t have been before. Biden did the right thing and the only thing.

[NoMoreRepugs]

7. Really want to see the source for this information.

I’m not doubting it, just want more particulars.

[Atticus]

12. I understand completely. If you can find a transcript of Rachel's show this evening, I'm

sure she explained it better than I did. I did read something about the dealing elsewhere, but don't have a cite for you.

The gist of it was that, once the Afghan military realized that the US and its air power would no longer be available after May, they decided that "it was over" and negotiated deals to save their lives.

[NoMoreRepugs]

30. Recording her midnight show here in the east. TY

[brush]

8. trump and Pompeo expected him to still be in office in May 2021.

They thought he would've been hailed as a hero for ending the war...if the Taliban went along with it that is.

Now who would trust the Taliban to keep their word?

[Mr.Bill]

10. Another result of no formal transition

between the two administrations.

[argyl]

28. The Dotard didn't want to listen to the Obama Administration during their transition.

And as The Dotard thought he was the "legal" president, he had nothing to tell Biden.

[LymphocyteLover]

11. This is part of the answer but I think there's a lot of details we just don't understand yet

know about, that can explain Biden's thinking and yet way too many on the left seem happy to throw Biden under the bus for this decision.

I can understand rightwingers stupidly gloating over a bad outcome but not sure why the left can't given Biden any benefit of the doubt.

[wnylib]

13. +1000.

[Moebym]

17. Because we on the left

are like Asian parents - and I can say this because my family is Chinese -

we have impossibly high expectations and no allowance for failure. "A-? Why not A+?" "1570 on the SAT? Why not 1600?" Etc.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

21. Good analogy.

[ecstatic]

25. Lol! nt

[crimycarny]

42. To do it right we would have had to send in another surge

I ask those on the left trashing Biden do we truly think Americans would have been ok with Biden sending in 3000-4000 more troops to ensure a safe evacuation? 2500 wasn’t nearly enough and Biden knew it. The Taliban had already negotiated a deal for withdrawal with Trump, do we really think they would have been ok with Biden sending in more troops? Most likely there would have been an even bigger bloodbath and we’d all be screaming about Biden sending in more troops.

Trump put us in this position by making his “deal” with the Taliban and leaving a skeleton crew that wasn’t nearly enough to fight back against the worst case scenario which just happened. The only other option Biden had was to send more troops and those trashing Biden right now would have been the loudest voices screaming about that.

[rockfordfile]

44. The best outcome is getting out

President Biden did the best any president has done with regards to Afghanistan. No more sending parents or family member to die for BS and lies in Afghanistan. Just like in Nam. I'm lucky to be here.

[Blue Owl]

14. The Slobfather's shitty house of cards

What a surprise…

[crimycarny]

15. I also saw on Lawrence Odonnell that Afghan soldiers didn't want to fight for the government

The Afghan government was so corrupt that the Afghan soldiers didn't want to fight for them. I'd already read about many Afghan soldiers not being paid for months because the corrupt government kept their pay. So hearing that they made deals with the Taliban doesn't surprise me.

[rockfordfile]

45. It's always been that.

[Hekate]

18. Thx for bring this up bcs I found it stunning. I'll have to revise my estimate of the Taliban's...

… grassroots organizing considerably. Grassroots and then up the tree in every province, until they were ready to take the capitol.

[moondust]

32. Peter Bergen on CNN earlier

said that, for one thing, the Taliban has been using an effective PR campaign. I had no idea they would do something like that.

[Hekate]

41. They just got themselves a country. I don't envy a single soul left behind, mind you...

…and if it were up to me I’d airlift all comers and let Uncle Sam sort them out.

But it is impressive.

[Warpy]

23. Taliban forces took Kabul pretty much without firing a shot

so this has been a done deal for a very long time.

What people need to know about Afghanistan is that outside the cities, it's still about the fifteenth century only with pickup trucks. A lot of people fully support the Taliban--for now.

The caveat is if the leadership loses control of the forces, something that happened with Pol Pot's regime.That's when it turns into a total bloodbath. I hope that doesn't happen. However, the Taliban takeover was inevitable and everybody knows it.

As for the "deal" with TFG, likely the Taliban knew they were dealing with an idiot.

[Dan]

26. My God, I hope you are wrong.

The world doesn’t need another regime like what happened in Cambodia. Sweet Jesus no.

[Warpy]

29. So far, they seem disciplined

and have issued only taunts and the occasional threat. I'm hoping that holds up.

They claim they learned some lessons over the last 20 years. We'll see if the leadership sinks into the same corruption and the rank and file, faring just as badly as they did in the Afghan army, start to settle old scores.

[DENVERPOPS]

50. Taliban forces took Kabul pretty much without firing a shot

Not a lot unlike Putin who has been able to trash the U.S. and Democracy without having a war, or firing a single missile or rocket !!!!!

[Jon King]

33. So Rachel knew but our military planners did not?

Not sure how this is helpful to our case for Biden's planners being on the ball. This seems to imply it was common knowledge and we should have evacuated the helpers long before setting an August 31st withdrawal date.

[SunSeeker]

40. No, Rachel did not know. Fleeing Afghan soldiers fed this story to journalists just now.

It was not common knowledge. Certainly the crowds panicking and clinging to airplanes at the Kabul Airport today did not know in advance. Nor did the women's rights advocates barricaded in their Kabul homes right now know. They would have gotten on a plane a lot sooner, when the gettin' was good.

The American army was in the dark about the extent of these surrender agreements. American intelligence told Biden he had 18 months, not days or hours:

The Pentagon had issued dire warnings to Mr. Biden even before he took office about the potential for the Taliban to overrun the Afghan army, but intelligence estimates, now shown to have badly missed the mark, assessed it might happen in 18 months, not weeks.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/14/us/afghanistan-biden.html


These Afghan army officers and politicians had reason to keep the extent of these agreements from the American military, so that they can continue to milk us for money to "keep fighting." As Rachel pointed out, that grift took $1 Trillion of our money and put it into the pockets of corrupt Afghan officers and politicians, while the rest of the country stayed poor. But we kept giving them money because we believed they'd fight.

[LiberalFighter]

60. Which would suggest that they thought there were 300,000 Afghan military

that would provide the time. Without understanding they would easily backdown.

[crimycarny]

43. So would you have accepted Biden sending in more troops to get that done?

Because I heard Chris Murphy state that 2500 left by Trump wasn’t nearly enough to support the type of evacuation that needed to be done. The only other option was to add more troops. Ask yourself honestly, would you have supported a surge of up to 6000 troops? Because that is the number over there now to make this work. I know I wouldn’t have because I had no idea how the conditions truly were in Afghanistan since no President before Biden has told the ugly truth. The extent of the corruption of the Afgan gov’t, the fact that the Afghan soldiers didn’t feel any loyalty to this same corrupt gov’t so were never going to fight.

[Slammer]

38. 5000 Taliban released

Trump also released 5000 Taliban prisoners as part of that agreement.

News reports indicate that most of them went right back to being Taliban soldiers and provided a lot of the manpower required to capture so many provincial capitals so quickly.

[empedocles]

47. Great thread. TY

[liberalla]

52. I didn't know or understand that either. It's important information. Thank you Rachel and Atticus

[fescuerescue]

55. Exactly. Trump put this in motion. Biden doesn't have the power to stop it

You just don't throw out a treaty all willy nilly.

This is All Trump.