The mask discussion is the same as the "seat belt" discussion in the mid & late 80s..

[Stuart G]

...Put on a seat belt, don't put one on...Your choice in the early and late 80s. People had a choice and people died.. . because of refusal to do the correct thing...OK..States started mandating seat belts as the law..in the late 80s...I remember
arguing about seat belts with my students as a high school teacher....So what happened after the laws went in most states?....

Well check it out...."MOTOR VEHICLE FATALITY RATE BY YEAR".....in a moment a direct link
Yes, hit the link at the bottom,..and look at the fatality rate from the mid 80s on.... .As people lost their choice to put on seat belts, and it became law across most if not all states..

Guess what happened?...Take a look from the late 80s on..(link at the bottom of page).

Now that is with more people...more cars...safer cars...and seat belt laws...
Under Jimmy Carter's Transportation Sec..Brock Adams...all cars were ordered to have seat belts in all cars ( by 83 or 84)

Other safety devises in cars were made law later..(side impact air bags, crumple devises, shoulder harnesses..etc.)
As the laws became stronger...and more safety devises were ordered...guess what happened again?...Hit the link and take
a look...It is a good look and made me believe that Jimmy Carter is clearly one of our greatest presidents by
making that order in 78 or 79 and eventually saving thousands of lives with seat belts and other devises.
(and he never brags about it..never)

Yes, Carter ordered it done, and it was done...Take a look at the numbers from mid 80s on...Remember this.: We have 100,000,000 more people now,(compared to 1980) tens millions of more cars on the highways..., and one third less deaths on the highways...

Now...you do not believe me... :...Hit the link below, and take a look, please...:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year

[JohnSJ]

1. Difference is, not fastening a seat belt makes you the only victim, not wearing a mask

endangers others

[Ms. Toad]

2. Not quite correct.

All of us pay for the injuries via higher insurance rates.

If I hit someone who would have minor injuries with a seatbelt - which turn into major injuries when he is ejected from the car - the insurance rates increase to cover his refusal to wear a seatbelt.

So our injuries aren't direct (the way they are in COVID), but they are every bit as real.

[raging moderate]

8. Also, a seat belt increases your control of the car, so other cars are safer from yours.

A seat belt increases your stability in your seat, which increases your ability to control the car. Therefore, your car is less likely to hit other cars around you, and their inhabitants are safer.

[Stuart G]

4. If you are not wearing a mask, you can get the caugh that someone else makes and breath in

the virus...Not wearing a mask, endangers the person not wearing a mask by breathing in other people's
disease..that is how people catch it...or not wearing gloves, and touching something that the person with the virus
touches.

[Ms. Toad]

3. A closer parallel is the air bag discussion.

Vaccines (like seatbelts) prevent a lot of illness - but not all. Air bags (like masks) gap-fill the holes left by the seatbelts (vaccines).

[Stuart G]

5. Thank You for your analysis...K and R post number 3

[jalan48]

6. Is he trying to create chaos?

[Stuart G]

7. I am not trying to create chaos...You wear a seat belt, well, ... wear a mask too

It ain't me....

think about it...wearing a mask could save your life...wear those idiotic plastic gloves too...

Yes, I wear them when I go out...why all the caution?.

..I have had pneumonia a couple of times....breathing tubes...the whole thing...so no, I don't want to go thru that
again...and I am lucky to be alive..

[jalan48]

11. My bad. I thought I was replying to another post about De Santis.

[Iggo]

9. I remember.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

10. Kinda confused by the orange line (deaths per million) vs the slate-colored (total deaths)

Orange line is deaths per million people ... how can that be 1/2 of the total deaths (roughly 17.5K for orange, 35K for slate)?

Wouldn't that suggest there's only 2M people?

What am I missing?

[MichMan]

13. Total deaths uses the Y legend on the right side, the others use the one on the left

[Hugh_Lebowski]

15. Oh, derp! Thanks :) nt

[MichMan]

12. Seat belts were required in all new cars starting in 1968

Last edited Tue Aug 17, 2021, 08:48 AM - Edit history (2)

Jimmy Carter was not in any elected office at the time (as he had lost the governors race.)

Also while it is clear that seat belt laws have saved lives, the deaths per billion miles traveled ( the key metric) has been in a steady decline since the 30's. I don't see anything in that chart that indicates that mandatory seat belt laws were responsible for any seismic shift

[mahatmakanejeeves]

14. Jimmy Carter had nothing to do with the regulation that mandated seat belts in automobiles.

Now that is with more people...more cars...safer cars...and seat belt laws...
Under Jimmy Carter's Transportation Sec..Brock Adams...all cars were ordered to have seat belts in all cars ( by 83 or 84)

Yes, Carter ordered it done, and it was done...Take a look at the numbers from mid 80s on...Remember this.: We have 100,000,000 more people now,(compared to 1980) tens millions of more cars on the highways..., and one third less deaths on the highways...

I'm sorry, but that's not right.

You'll have to put up with me this morning, as I'm reading a lot of disinformation. I'm getting impatient with it.

By the 1968 model year, even shoulder belts were showing up in automobiles. Lap belts were required before then. I owned a 1967 Ford. It came from the factory with lap belts, as required by regulation. Shoulder belts were an option. I found the mounting points when I peeled back the headliner.

Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards

{snip}

Structure

FMVSS are currently codified in Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Part 571, Subpart B (49 CFR 571), with each FMVSS standard as a section of Part 571, e.g., FMVSS Standard No. 101 is 49 CFR 571.101. FMVSS are developed and enforced by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) pursuant to statutory authorization in the form of the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966, which is now codified at 49 U.S.C. ch. 301.

FMVSS are divided into three categories: crash avoidance (100-series), crashworthiness (200-series), and post-crash survivability (300-series). The first regulation, FMVSS No. 209, was adopted on 1 March 1967 and remains in force to date though its requirements have been periodically updated and made more stringent. It stipulates the requirements for seat belts in roadgoing vehicles.

{snip}

There are several factors that are contributing to automotive safety. Any decrease in deaths cannot be attributed solely to seat belts.

edited} I see MichMan beat me to it.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215748439#post12

[Stuart G]

16. Brock Adams ordered mandatory seat belts/air bags in June 1977

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212174968

Below isabsolute proof from the New York Times that Adams ordered seat belts in June 1977.....
date of New York Times....July 1, 1977 Hit link below:

https://www.nytimes.com/1977/07/01/archives/us-orders-air-bags-or-automatic-belts-for-all-1984-autos-imports.html

[mahatmakanejeeves]

21. Read that carefully.

Full disclosure: I have written material that appeared in the Federal Register. Before my words made it into print, they were gone over by umpteen layers of reviewers, including several members of the legal department.

They argue over commas.

Every word counts. Every word.

There is an important distinction that you are missing.

Take as much time as you need.

[fescuerescue]

17. That pre-dated Carter by at least a decade.

All cars by 1968 had to have seat belts from the factory

This was Federal_Motor_Vehicle_Safety_Standard_208.

https://foundationsoflawandsociety.wordpress.com/2020/12/10/the-federal-motor-vehicle-safety-standard-208/


That was either Kennedy or Johnson, but think I think it occurred at the regulatory level, rather than the Oval Office.



It was around 1983 however, that seat best USAGE become mandatory.

[Stuart G]

18. No...You are wrong...that law at your link, allowed manufacturers to define safety devises...

and standards... Yes, the manufacturers could mandate devises for safety....

The actual order to mandate seat belts, & air bags was given by Brock Adams in June 1977 to do exactly what
I described: seat belts in cars.....hit the link that I have given in my post........

And you are wrong......All cars did not have to have seat belts from the factory....in 1968...
Manufacturers could order ....(safety devises like certain lights, or crumple zones, etc.) ....

The actual seat belt order itself was made by Brock Adams in the July 1, New York Times article noted in my
article quoted above)....Here is the link again:


https://www.nytimes.com/1977/07/01/archives/us-orders-air-bags-or-automatic-belts-for-all-1984-autos-imports.html

[fescuerescue]

19. Airbags is a different discussion. They weren't an option till the early 1970's and only rarely

Go ahead and google Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 208

1968.

You are confusing seat belt USAGE and seat belt installation.


Here's another good link

https://americanhistory.si.edu/america-on-the-move/essays/automobile-safety

Scroll down to "government mandates change"

[Stuart G]

20. You are confused...I drove during the 70s...our cars did NOT have regulatory seat belts....

Some had them, but they were optional.....Belt installation in cars,,,that is cars had to have them, were not required
until 1984....The law was there, but it was not....repeat not required to have seat belts...

By 1968, seat belts, padded dashboards, and other safety features were mandatory equipment.
.........this line, from the article is a lie....whoever wrote it lied.....

[mahatmakanejeeves]

24. Stuart G, please stop while you are no farther behind than you already are.

You are confused...I drove during the 70s...our cars did NOT have regulatory seat belts....

What cars were you driving back then?

By 1968, seat belts, padded dashboards, and other safety features were mandatory equipment.
.........this line, from the article is a lie....whoever wrote it lied.....

You linked to one of your earlier threads on this same subject.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212174968

Someone responded two years ago, giving you the correct answer then:

Mon Jun 10, 2019: They were required for each designated seating position as of January 1, 1968.

https://icsw.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/FMVSS/#SN20
(see Standard #208)

In 1984, the New York Times published a timeline of safety requirements leading up to (potential ?) airbag requirements:
https://www.nytimes.com/1984/07/12/us/chronology-of-events-involving-air-bags.html

Adams, as Carter's Secretary of Transportation, instituted new rules regarding air bags and passive seatbelts. The new rules were killed at the beginning of the Reagan administration.

NHTSA is lying?

[Zeitghost]

27. All cars

Manufactured after 1/1/1968 were equipped with seat belts by law.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

22. Dear Stuart G: when you are in a hole, stop digging.

All cars did not have to have seat belts from the factory....in 1968...

If they were sold in the US, they did. You are arguing with people who are old enough that they owned cars built in the 1960s and 1970s. We are well aware of the seat belts that were in the cars we owned.

Lots of us here owned cars that were sold in the US long before any of us could even spell "Jimmy Carter."

Please go back and read what Brock Adams was requesting. It's not what you think.

Best wishes.

[Stuart G]

25. While different states had different laws, I may have been wrong, Link is below:

https://www.google.com/search?q=What+year+car+are+seat+belts+required%3F&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi-ht7s7MfyAhWTKM0KHaokDkMQzmd6BAgYEAU&biw=1600&bih=767

[mahatmakanejeeves]

26. It is possible that certain states might have mandated seat belts in cars before the

Last edited Mon Aug 23, 2021, 05:30 PM - Edit history (2)

federal regulation went into effect.

The most likely candidates would have been California and New York. I have no idea what their standards were.

It is quite allowable that a state have a tougher standard in place than a federal standard. It is not allowable that a state have a wekaer standard in place than a federal standard.

You are making a good start.

{edited} This popped up in the results for your Google query:

The Surprisingly Controversial History Of Seat Belts

Vintage Wisconsin: 52 Years Ago, Wisconsin First State To Require Seat Belts In Cars

By Erika Janik
Published: Monday, September 25, 2017, 10:55am

It’s hard to imagine a time before seatbelts. But on Sept. 25, 1961, Wisconsin became the first state to require seatbelts in the front seats of cars in all models built in and after 1962.

Seat belts had been around, if infrequently used, since the 19th century. Many street cars had lap belts in the 1930s, but few people used them. These early lap belt models kept passengers from flying out of the car but did nothing to protect their heads or torsos.

The Wisconsin born Nash Motors became the first company to offer seatbelts in 1949. Charles W. Nash started the company in 1916 after purchasing the Kenosha-based Thomas B. Jeffery Company, a bicycle-turned-automobile factory. Nash opened plants in Milwaukee and Racine as well as in Arkansas; and by the 1920s, Nash was one of the nation’s bestselling car companies.

{snip}

It wasn't until the late 1950s that an engineer at Volvo devised the three-point seat belt most of us are familiar with today. This new model secured the chest and hips with a single belt. These seatbelts became mandatory in all new United States vehicles in 1968.

If you wanted to register a 1962 or later model car in Wisconsin, it had to have front seat belts. At that time, "seat belt" was synonomous with "lap belt."

For Modern Seat Belts, The Third Point Is The Charm

ByAlanis King
3/20/16 9:00AM

{snip}

[lagomorph777]

23. Better analogies would be the public smoking or drinking and driving discussions.

Both of those were about your right to kill other people with your own unhealthy behaviors. (spoiler alert, turns out you don't have that right).

[Stuart G]

28. Yes, I was totally wrong on this one...Sorry, ... Not Partially, but ..TOTALLY.WRONG !!

AIN'T THE FIRST TIME.....& my guess is...IT WON'T BE THE LAST ......


I don't know this one...but do states require helmets for people who ride bicycles ?...yes, change the subject...
when someone is............TOTALLY WRONG...!!!

[mahatmakanejeeves]

29. No, you were not totally wrong. You just didn't notice this one word. That word made a world

of difference.

"Passive."

What Brock Adams was trying to promulgate was a regulation that would require passive restraints. When I got behind the wheel of my 1963 or 1967 Ford, or my friend's 1965 Chevy II, it was my choice to wear the seat belt or not. (I always wore it.) Later, that seat belt evolved into the three-point lap and shoulder belt. Still, it was my choice.

Brock Adams wanted to remove the element of choice and mandate the use of lap and shoulder belts. You had to use them whether you wanted to or not.

Every word counts.

I don't enjoy piling on people, but I know what I drove.

Best wishes.

{edited, in the voice of Columbo} One more thing: Brock Adams has not held up well as a shining example of a public servant.

Brock Adams

Also, Jimmy Carter's choice to head NHTSA was a nitwit.