General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe US should move its operation to Bagram Air Field?
They would need to secure it first.
Is it being occupied? Have mines been planted? There are all sorts of issues if attempted to go back in.
But, Karzai Airport is indefensible beyond its wall. It is not the safest place to be.
I suspect the Taliban will be busy for the next few days negotiating amongst themselves about who is going to lead them?
This might be the best time to re-take Bagram and set up a base to complete the mission?
former9thward
(31,943 posts)1) The Taliban control Bagram. 2) Bagram is about 45 miles from Kabul. Almost impossible to get people there now.
Bev54
(10,039 posts)Better that they expand the perimeter around the Karzai Airport and help people get through. The logistics favor that.
kentuck
(111,052 posts)It could turn bad very quickly. It's a war zone.
Bev54
(10,039 posts)them count that out.
Johnny2X2X
(18,973 posts)There is no fighting going on in Kabul. The Taliban are actually providing security outside the airport and helping keep evacuations orderly. There was chaos for a day or so, it's running fairly smoothly now though.
kentuck
(111,052 posts)It's good that the Taliban is monitoring the evacuation but shouldn't they be able to go a little quicker?
They know the US is out on August 31st. Why would they slow down the process?
Who's to blame if the people that want to leave have not been given enough time?
Johnny2X2X
(18,973 posts)The US state department has been telling them to leave for months, but they instead listened to the Afghan government who told them they would hold up against the Taliban just fine. And there simply aren't that many more Americans to evacuate. And also, I know it's hard to believe, but there are some Americans who want to stay.
kentuck
(111,052 posts)The Taliban cannot be permitted to hold them hostage.
Johnny2X2X
(18,973 posts)The Taliban has been letting our people leave freely. And they're even letting Afghanis leave who want to right now. In fact right now, the Taliban is facilitating the safe travel of Americans to the airport with armed convoys.
There is no war going on right now, it's not a crisis situation at all. The Taliban made agreements with the US and they are living up to those agreements, no Americans are being harmed and there is very little violence anywhere right now.
kentuck
(111,052 posts)True.
Johnny2X2X
(18,973 posts)Theyve said they will. They are. Theyre actually helping them leave. And we have the leverage of a ton of humanitarian aid hanging as a carrot to hold them to their word. And they need that aid to form a functioning government.
kentuck
(111,052 posts)But I suppose we don't have a lot of choices at this moment?
Calista241
(5,586 posts)Karzai airport isn't equipped, large enough, or secure enough to operate those kinds of large scale helicopter operations.
Bev54
(10,039 posts)Calista241
(5,586 posts)Long enough to fly helicopters throughout the country to retrieve our people and our supporters that were promised amnesty.
Pachamama
(16,884 posts)
of Afghanistan.
I want to know who made that strategic f*ck up of a decision to hand over Bagram before August 31st.
I want to know why for the last 3 months there werent daily flights in and out of Bagram and Katzini Airport moving thousands of people out.
And I want to know why when so many people, even the Governor of Guam on the Rachel a Maddow show saying she was prepared to receive people.
Secretary Austin should resign. Amd that also begs asking the question of what was Sec Blanken doing at the State Dept?
doc03
(35,299 posts)responsible for this mess. We pull troops out give up the airbase them have to send troops back in? Nobody saw this coming, don't we have the CIA anymore? Has Malcom Nance commented on this?
Bev54
(10,039 posts)bluedevil4
(305 posts)about everything you posted
Johnny2X2X
(18,973 posts)People didn't want to leave, that's why. The US has been advising American citizens to leave Afghanistan for months.
Chuuku Davis
(565 posts)Bagram was an offensive force with great defense.
rollin74
(1,972 posts)to leave the air base first and seriously diminish US capability was beyond stupid
Amishman
(5,554 posts)Joe's getting beat up for things that aren't his fault. Withdrawal was and is the right move. The devil is in the details, and it feels like every single aspect of the plan got Satan's personal touch with how exceptionally badly this went.
If Blinken and a few generals get canned from this, I won't feel bad.
marble falls
(57,013 posts)... morning quarterbacks.
The Taliban is keeping its word, how about we keep ours for once?
bluedevil4
(305 posts)how could we be Monday morning quarterbacking? Let's get past this and then we can discuss monday morning quarter back
marble falls
(57,013 posts)... has momentum, and a resting object only has potential. Right now, everyone is keeping their word. Breaking our word and doing whatever to Kandahar to do whatever to get 78 billion people from Kabul to Kandahar might not be a very good idea.
Do you think it is not in every Taliban fighter's mind what living Hell the US is fully capable of raining down on them, and not to retake Afghanistan, but just to get fucking even? Somewhere there are so many cruise missiles and drones just waiting.
So far, we are the only occupying western army since Alexander the Great got his ass kicked to walk out unscathed and not shot up along the way. Why in the world does anyone want to chance upsetting this one exception to the history books?
bluedevil4
(305 posts)right. Your post makes sense and it makes me think.
Thank you 😊
marble falls
(57,013 posts)... Doing this took guts. Presidents who end wars, won or lost, generally don't do well in the next elections. GHWB had a 92% approval rating after his war. A year and a half later, Bill Clinton beat him.
bluedevil4
(305 posts)I think Dole ran against Clinton. I havent checked it
marble falls
(57,013 posts)... GHWB was RWR's VP. GHWB ran against MSD, and beat him. WJC beat GHWB. For WJC's 2nd term, the GOP ran RJD and JFK (Not that JFK, but another), against WJC, who won. Next election WJC's VP, AAG Jr, ran against GWB (GHWB's son and former Gov of TEX.)
Thanx!
bluedevil4
(305 posts)Came after Reagan and did 1 term bush W came after Clinton and did two years. Oh we were talking about two different bushes lol
marble falls
(57,013 posts)manicdem
(387 posts)Trusting the Taliban and relying on them for our safety is a very bad idea. Even if the Taliban leaders have good intent, all it takes is one of their renegade Soldiers to shoot an American and the whole city erupts with the real possibility of the airport getting overrun.
marble falls
(57,013 posts)... that already has had very little bloodshed? Why change it if you can't guarantee even coming up with a result that is equal to what is already working?
Do you have any idea of what an amazing feat of logistics is going on right now with getting tens of thousands of people out of one of the more remote places on the planet?
You do know 45 wanted us out and set last May as when we were leaving. How anybody didn't get the message we were petering out, and more than a year ago, well I got to wonder.
Right now, people are getting out of the powder keg. Please don't make sparks.
manicdem
(387 posts)So you wouldn't fly in more troops as a contingency or show of force to make sure the Taliban comply? Have US Soldiers go out and make sure we get those tens of thousands of people out of Kabul? Out of the other cities there? You are 100% trusting the Taliban?
marble falls
(57,013 posts)And now we are retreating. R-e-t-r-e-a-t-i-n-g.
It's been said the Taliban was threatened with the US military would take their home villages completely off the map. That the US had 1000s of drones and cruise missiles. That we were leaving and would be gone only if they cooperated.
Helicopters of full Afghans have come to Kabul in the last few days, that could only happen with the Taliban's cooperation.
The major reason things got gummed was not Joe Biden or the military or the Taliban, it was Ghani and all the leadership leaving, creating a vacuum that sucked the Taliban in quicker.
But the process never stopped. There was no security at the airport because the government totally collapsed and gov't troops disarmed and ran away.
The only contingency left after the government evaporated was to keep it moving, and that's what the US did.
Thank G*D for Joe Biden.
treestar
(82,383 posts)analyzing, monday morning quarterbacking, deciding what should have been done by people who know a lot more about it, insisting it is messed up or bungled because the media wants it to be.
marble falls
(57,013 posts)... I've arranged for delivery of product, receiving of raw material during storms, strikes, road/track/air disruptions.
What it takes for the military to keep this thing going in the face of plans going away by the instant of Ghani and the entire government control evaporating, is amazing. And add news representations, always based on anecdote. Yes there are those who haven't gotten out of a nation the last administration set the end of May 2020 for getting out of. But downplay the 10s of 1000s we've gotten out just in the last week.
Joe Biden deserves our quiet thanks.
And once again, the US Military has proven when they are not raining pure hell down in useless Asian land wars, it is the best equipt, best trained, the largest manned disaster relief force on the planet. The US Military is able to restore order in a timely fashion where-ever they stand.
Too bad, Ghani pull the civil structure down.
FBaggins
(26,721 posts)There arent enough troops/equipment on the ground.
What is defending the airport at this point is an agreement with the Taliban. Essentially - leave it alone or we strike back (which we do still have the power to do).
To the extent that works, it works equally well at either location.
kentuck
(111,052 posts)You may be right. This may be the best deal available at this time? Trust the Taliban to keep their word?
FBaggins
(26,721 posts)We could of course land far more troops and take control of the area by force - but there would likely be significant casualties and it could easily start an active shooting war again.
But there's just enough credibility left in our threat of force for them to play nice for a short period. They see that we're running away and they get to declare victory. Why take the risk of sparking a new conflict?
marble falls
(57,013 posts)... with all its implicit threats, seems to be holding. I bet RWers are on their cell phones right this moment trying to buy some of those sweet, never fired automatic weapons. And ammo. Lotssa ammo.
LuvLoogie
(6,935 posts)You still need an infrastructure supporting a civilian population. There is more of that in Kabul than in the surroundings of Bagram. It seems Kabul could absorb an influx of refugees better than the terrain surrounding Bagram.
kentuck
(111,052 posts)The low number of Taliban now in Kabul would not seem capable of covering such a big city as Kabul? I would guess they will re-inforce their numbers in the next few days. Baradar the Butcher is in Kandihar. He is likely on his way to Kabul?
They will need to choose who is going to lead them? Baradar may be their choice? It seems likely that they will be very busy in the next few days?
WarGamer
(12,369 posts)marble falls
(57,013 posts)... and now it's reported, he's offered to go back.
This is going to work out. Ghani leaving created a vacuum that pulled the Taliban in.
The Taliban has reopened some girls' schools.
So far, so good.
Calista241
(5,586 posts)in the middle of the night. That midnight evacuation, without telling anyone we were leaving, is what's causing a lot of the panic on the part of our Afghan allies and supporters.
Pachamama
(16,884 posts)And I want to know who made that decision and why
WarGamer
(12,369 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)These aren't counters on a map board. And soak-off attacks means actual, dead civilians, not just dice rolls.
WarGamer
(12,369 posts)The last place you evacuate in this situation is the place where you've concentrated and focused most of your power/strength.
The DoD and State screwed the pooch, royally. I said in another post, I don't blame Biden AT ALL, not a bit. But "his people" need to be fired.
There should have been orderly evacuations from Kabul to Bagram. Evidently State had weeks of warnings that Kabul could collapse in a heartbeat.
Pink slips should be flying. I don't want Joe to be up there saying "The buck stops with me" and this horseshit... he didn't do anything wrong.
Sympthsical
(9,041 posts)We actively chose not to.
It's one of the bigger instances of, "What were people thinking here?" that is littering all of this.
Never should've happened. Not with all the warnings coming down.
WarGamer
(12,369 posts)kentuck
(111,052 posts)that as they drew the troops down below 2500, they didn't have the manpower or security to protect it? So they moved to the Kabul Airport to finish the mission?
Sympthsical
(9,041 posts)The President ended up having to put more troops in anyway. It's clear this withdrawal was not prepared as it should have been. And that's a wild understatement.
Beefing up a force to secure withdrawal would not have been against the ultimate objectives of President Biden's policy.
There were warnings this was coming. The NYT had a long article about it a few days ago. There were failures here.
kentuck
(111,052 posts)...the military would disintegrate and disappear. I don't think the NYTimes of any of the experts predicted any such collapse.
If there is someone to blame, would the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs be a place to start? After all, he was around when Trump made his deal with the Taliban, without any Afghan government input. He was in charge of the military decisions, along with others.
However, the buck stops at the resolute desk. The President is the Commander in Chief.
Sympthsical
(9,041 posts)Look at the statements President Biden was giving today. At one point, he said, "Nobody saw . . . wait . . . I shouldn't say nobody . . . There was consensus . . ."
And then he kept coming back to that word over and over. Consensus.
Why? Because there were reports and warnings. I'll post the article again. Emphases are mine:
WASHINGTON Classified assessments by American spy agencies over the summer painted an increasingly grim picture of the prospect of a Taliban takeover of Afghanistan and warned of the rapid collapse of the Afghan military, even as President Biden and his advisers said publicly that was unlikely to happen as quickly, according to current and former American government officials.
By July, many intelligence reports grew more pessimistic, questioning whether any Afghan security forces would muster serious resistance and whether the government could hold on in Kabul, the capital. President Biden said on July 8 that the Afghan government was unlikely to fall and that there would be no chaotic evacuations of Americans similar to the end of the Vietnam War.
The drumbeat of warnings over the summer raise questions about why Biden administration officials, and military planners in Afghanistan, seemed ill-prepared to deal with the Talibans final push into Kabul, including a failure to ensure security at the main airport and rushing thousands more troops back to the country to protect the United States final exit.
One report in July as dozens of Afghan districts were falling and Taliban fighters were laying siege to several major cities laid out the growing risks to Kabul, noting that the Afghan government was unprepared for a Taliban assault, according to a person familiar with the intelligence.
Intelligence agencies predicted that should the Taliban seize cities, a cascading collapse could happen rapidly and the Afghan security forces were at high risk of falling apart. It is unclear whether other reports during this period presented a more optimistic picture about the ability of the Afghan military and the government in Kabul to withstand the insurgents.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/17/us/politics/afghanistan-biden-administration.html
It is bizarre for people to stand around going, "We had no idea this was coming!"
Well, someone did. Many someones. It should stop being said that this was all a surprise. If it was a surprise, that is a world class fuck up. You're then given a choice - ignorance or incompetence.
You don't want either in your quiver when struggling for political optics.
kentuck
(111,052 posts)What was going on between Feb 20 and Jan 21?
Did no one dare say anything to the President at that time? Did anyone tell him he was screwing up? Or did they just accept that from Trump because that is what he did. He knew how to do nothing else.
How many options did he actually leave Biden? How many troops did he leave Biden?
Should Biden have sent troops back in?
Or should he have continued the withdrawal as had been agreed to a year earlier?
I heard no one saying that the government would collapse so quickly or that the military would disappear? There were generals and experts all over the TV and none of them said that might happen? Perhaps in secret, they were telling the leaders that?
It seems to me that this is a time for the country to unite, while our troops are under threat, and the country is in a tough spot, regardless of who is to blame. The blame can be ladled out later.
treestar
(82,383 posts)that if such a thing were better, those handling it would have done that.
brooklynite
(94,363 posts)The reason operations are centralized at Kabul Airport is that people who want to get out can get to the airport. Bagram is 45 minutes away at top speed, on a dangerous road.
radicalleft
(478 posts)Good lord, let the CIC and Pentagon handle this!
kentuck
(111,052 posts)Why interfere with stupid comments?