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kentuck

(111,052 posts)
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 03:52 PM Aug 2021

The US should move its operation to Bagram Air Field?

They would need to secure it first.

Is it being occupied? Have mines been planted? There are all sorts of issues if attempted to go back in.

But, Karzai Airport is indefensible beyond its wall. It is not the safest place to be.

I suspect the Taliban will be busy for the next few days negotiating amongst themselves about who is going to lead them?

This might be the best time to re-take Bagram and set up a base to complete the mission?

62 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The US should move its operation to Bagram Air Field? (Original Post) kentuck Aug 2021 OP
Ahh, no. former9thward Aug 2021 #1
It would be even more difficult for people to get to that airbase Bev54 Aug 2021 #2
The Defense just said they did not have the capacity to expand the perimeter. kentuck Aug 2021 #6
They may have to bring in more troops to do that but I did not hear Bev54 Aug 2021 #8
It's far from a war zone Johnny2X2X Aug 2021 #11
I'm not sure the troops at the Airport feel that way? kentuck Aug 2021 #14
The people are to blame Johnny2X2X Aug 2021 #16
True or not, I heard it reported that there were still 10,000 plus Americans still in the country? kentuck Aug 2021 #19
They aren't holding them hostage Johnny2X2X Aug 2021 #22
Only if they don't let them leave. kentuck Aug 2021 #28
There's no sign they won't let them leave Johnny2X2X Aug 2021 #31
It just seems so strange to say that we should trust the Taliban? kentuck Aug 2021 #32
We could operate helicopters out of Bagram though. Calista241 Aug 2021 #33
You would need fuel and servicing etc to do that, how you going to get that? Bev54 Aug 2021 #36
We could fly it in there for a limited period of time. Calista241 Aug 2021 #37
They should NEVER have left Bagram until every last American and Ally and soldier was safely out Pachamama Aug 2021 #3
I have the same questions, this was FUBAR who was doc03 Aug 2021 #7
Perhaps we should wait on details and facts before asking for resignations. Bev54 Aug 2021 #10
you are 100% right bluedevil4 Aug 2021 #13
Sarcasm? Johnny2X2X Aug 2021 #18
Best post of the day Chuuku Davis Aug 2021 #20
my thoughts exactly. Bagram should have been the last place to evacuate rollin74 Aug 2021 #21
Agreed, this is a huge screwup and some people need to lose their jobs Amishman Aug 2021 #41
NO! I'll let Joe Biden and the Pentegon handle this. It's working very well, we need no Monday ... marble falls Aug 2021 #4
the game isn't over bluedevil4 Aug 2021 #15
The game isn't over either way, but I believe in physics which says a moving object ... marble falls Aug 2021 #24
I hope you're bluedevil4 Aug 2021 #27
The short of it is, one less distraction. They wanted us out We wanted us out. US is now out ... marble falls Aug 2021 #29
Bush did 8 years bluedevil4 Aug 2021 #30
Do check that. You may be surprised! There were two Bush Presidents: GHWB and GWB. ... marble falls Aug 2021 #38
His father bluedevil4 Aug 2021 #39
There you are. GHWB won his war with Saddam Hussein and lost to Big Dog. marble falls Aug 2021 #40
Anything can set off the powder keg manicdem Aug 2021 #50
If this is a powder keg - and it is - what is the advantage of changing a transaction that ... marble falls Aug 2021 #57
No contingency? manicdem Aug 2021 #58
We.Couldn't.Make.The.Taliban.Comply.When.We.Were."Winning". ... marble falls Aug 2021 #59
They're really letting the MSM draw them into this treestar Aug 2021 #53
It's crazy. I've worked large events where semis and celebrities for 1,000+ ... marble falls Aug 2021 #62
Neither airport is defensible in the traditional sense FBaggins Aug 2021 #5
"leave it alone or we strike back" kentuck Aug 2021 #9
I don't think that we have a choice FBaggins Aug 2021 #23
And it's working. I'm sure each side has a knife to the other's throat, but the agreement ... marble falls Aug 2021 #26
You'd still have to secure Kabul airport. LuvLoogie Aug 2021 #12
Good point ! kentuck Aug 2021 #17
too late... maybe Bagram should have been secured from Day 1? WarGamer Aug 2021 #25
This was all negotiated. The only adlib was from Ghani, when he and his government decamped ... marble falls Aug 2021 #34
Bagram was our airbase from 2001 until a few weeks ago when we left Calista241 Aug 2021 #35
Exactly - completely agree Pachamama Aug 2021 #42
Sounds like a bad move... WarGamer Aug 2021 #43
Sounds as such predicated on what precise and objective measure? LanternWaste Aug 2021 #45
I'm just arguing that... WarGamer Aug 2021 #46
We had the option to keep Bagram Sympthsical Aug 2021 #44
+1000 nt WarGamer Aug 2021 #47
My understanding was that it was so huge... kentuck Aug 2021 #48
Then they should have put more troops in Sympthsical Aug 2021 #49
I dont think anyone suspected the government would fall so quickly or that.. kentuck Aug 2021 #51
People keep repeating this, but it's just a complete falsehood. Sympthsical Aug 2021 #54
Also, did anyone say this might happen after February 2020 until January 2021? kentuck Aug 2021 #55
I don't think there was such a lack of planning treestar Aug 2021 #52
Jason Kander: centralizing operations at Bagram is a bad idea... brooklynite Aug 2021 #56
Lot's of military geniuses on this thread radicalleft Aug 2021 #60
Yes, they have done so well... kentuck Aug 2021 #61

former9thward

(31,943 posts)
1. Ahh, no.
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 03:56 PM
Aug 2021

1) The Taliban control Bagram. 2) Bagram is about 45 miles from Kabul. Almost impossible to get people there now.

Bev54

(10,039 posts)
2. It would be even more difficult for people to get to that airbase
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 03:58 PM
Aug 2021

Better that they expand the perimeter around the Karzai Airport and help people get through. The logistics favor that.

kentuck

(111,052 posts)
6. The Defense just said they did not have the capacity to expand the perimeter.
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 04:06 PM
Aug 2021

It could turn bad very quickly. It's a war zone.

Johnny2X2X

(18,973 posts)
11. It's far from a war zone
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 04:17 PM
Aug 2021

There is no fighting going on in Kabul. The Taliban are actually providing security outside the airport and helping keep evacuations orderly. There was chaos for a day or so, it's running fairly smoothly now though.

kentuck

(111,052 posts)
14. I'm not sure the troops at the Airport feel that way?
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 04:22 PM
Aug 2021

It's good that the Taliban is monitoring the evacuation but shouldn't they be able to go a little quicker?

They know the US is out on August 31st. Why would they slow down the process?

Who's to blame if the people that want to leave have not been given enough time?

Johnny2X2X

(18,973 posts)
16. The people are to blame
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 04:27 PM
Aug 2021

The US state department has been telling them to leave for months, but they instead listened to the Afghan government who told them they would hold up against the Taliban just fine. And there simply aren't that many more Americans to evacuate. And also, I know it's hard to believe, but there are some Americans who want to stay.

kentuck

(111,052 posts)
19. True or not, I heard it reported that there were still 10,000 plus Americans still in the country?
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 04:29 PM
Aug 2021

The Taliban cannot be permitted to hold them hostage.

Johnny2X2X

(18,973 posts)
22. They aren't holding them hostage
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 04:33 PM
Aug 2021

The Taliban has been letting our people leave freely. And they're even letting Afghanis leave who want to right now. In fact right now, the Taliban is facilitating the safe travel of Americans to the airport with armed convoys.

There is no war going on right now, it's not a crisis situation at all. The Taliban made agreements with the US and they are living up to those agreements, no Americans are being harmed and there is very little violence anywhere right now.

Johnny2X2X

(18,973 posts)
31. There's no sign they won't let them leave
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 05:41 PM
Aug 2021

They’ve said they will. They are. They’re actually helping them leave. And we have the leverage of a ton of humanitarian aid hanging as a carrot to hold them to their word. And they need that aid to form a functioning government.

kentuck

(111,052 posts)
32. It just seems so strange to say that we should trust the Taliban?
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 05:43 PM
Aug 2021

But I suppose we don't have a lot of choices at this moment?

Calista241

(5,586 posts)
33. We could operate helicopters out of Bagram though.
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 05:48 PM
Aug 2021

Karzai airport isn't equipped, large enough, or secure enough to operate those kinds of large scale helicopter operations.

Calista241

(5,586 posts)
37. We could fly it in there for a limited period of time.
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 05:57 PM
Aug 2021

Long enough to fly helicopters throughout the country to retrieve our people and our supporters that were promised amnesty.

Pachamama

(16,884 posts)
3. They should NEVER have left Bagram until every last American and Ally and soldier was safely out
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 03:58 PM
Aug 2021

…of Afghanistan.

I want to know who made that strategic f*ck up of a decision to hand over Bagram before August 31st.

I want to know why for the last 3 months there weren’t daily flights in and out of Bagram and Katzini Airport moving thousands of people out.

And I want to know why when so many people, even the Governor of Guam on the Rachel a Maddow show saying she was prepared to receive people.

Secretary Austin should resign. Amd that also begs asking the question of what was Sec Blanken doing at the State Dept?


doc03

(35,299 posts)
7. I have the same questions, this was FUBAR who was
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 04:08 PM
Aug 2021

responsible for this mess. We pull troops out give up the airbase them have to send troops back in? Nobody saw this coming, don't we have the CIA anymore? Has Malcom Nance commented on this?

Johnny2X2X

(18,973 posts)
18. Sarcasm?
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 04:28 PM
Aug 2021

People didn't want to leave, that's why. The US has been advising American citizens to leave Afghanistan for months.

rollin74

(1,972 posts)
21. my thoughts exactly. Bagram should have been the last place to evacuate
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 04:31 PM
Aug 2021

to leave the air base first and seriously diminish US capability was beyond stupid

Amishman

(5,554 posts)
41. Agreed, this is a huge screwup and some people need to lose their jobs
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 07:41 PM
Aug 2021

Joe's getting beat up for things that aren't his fault. Withdrawal was and is the right move. The devil is in the details, and it feels like every single aspect of the plan got Satan's personal touch with how exceptionally badly this went.

If Blinken and a few generals get canned from this, I won't feel bad.

marble falls

(57,013 posts)
4. NO! I'll let Joe Biden and the Pentegon handle this. It's working very well, we need no Monday ...
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 04:01 PM
Aug 2021

... morning quarterbacks.

The Taliban is keeping its word, how about we keep ours for once?

 

bluedevil4

(305 posts)
15. the game isn't over
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 04:23 PM
Aug 2021

how could we be Monday morning quarterbacking? Let's get past this and then we can discuss monday morning quarter back

marble falls

(57,013 posts)
24. The game isn't over either way, but I believe in physics which says a moving object ...
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 05:21 PM
Aug 2021

... has momentum, and a resting object only has potential. Right now, everyone is keeping their word. Breaking our word and doing whatever to Kandahar to do whatever to get 78 billion people from Kabul to Kandahar might not be a very good idea.

Do you think it is not in every Taliban fighter's mind what living Hell the US is fully capable of raining down on them, and not to retake Afghanistan, but just to get fucking even? Somewhere there are so many cruise missiles and drones just waiting.

So far, we are the only occupying western army since Alexander the Great got his ass kicked to walk out unscathed and not shot up along the way. Why in the world does anyone want to chance upsetting this one exception to the history books?

marble falls

(57,013 posts)
29. The short of it is, one less distraction. They wanted us out We wanted us out. US is now out ...
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 05:38 PM
Aug 2021

... Doing this took guts. Presidents who end wars, won or lost, generally don't do well in the next elections. GHWB had a 92% approval rating after his war. A year and a half later, Bill Clinton beat him.

marble falls

(57,013 posts)
38. Do check that. You may be surprised! There were two Bush Presidents: GHWB and GWB. ...
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 06:00 PM
Aug 2021

... GHWB was RWR's VP. GHWB ran against MSD, and beat him. WJC beat GHWB. For WJC's 2nd term, the GOP ran RJD and JFK (Not that JFK, but another), against WJC, who won. Next election WJC's VP, AAG Jr, ran against GWB (GHWB's son and former Gov of TEX.)

Thanx!

 

bluedevil4

(305 posts)
39. His father
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 06:57 PM
Aug 2021

Came after Reagan and did 1 term bush W came after Clinton and did two years. Oh we were talking about two different bushes lol

manicdem

(387 posts)
50. Anything can set off the powder keg
Fri Aug 20, 2021, 09:16 PM
Aug 2021

Trusting the Taliban and relying on them for our safety is a very bad idea. Even if the Taliban leaders have good intent, all it takes is one of their renegade Soldiers to shoot an American and the whole city erupts with the real possibility of the airport getting overrun.

marble falls

(57,013 posts)
57. If this is a powder keg - and it is - what is the advantage of changing a transaction that ...
Fri Aug 20, 2021, 11:30 PM
Aug 2021

... that already has had very little bloodshed? Why change it if you can't guarantee even coming up with a result that is equal to what is already working?

Do you have any idea of what an amazing feat of logistics is going on right now with getting tens of thousands of people out of one of the more remote places on the planet?

You do know 45 wanted us out and set last May as when we were leaving. How anybody didn't get the message we were petering out, and more than a year ago, well I got to wonder.

Right now, people are getting out of the powder keg. Please don't make sparks.

manicdem

(387 posts)
58. No contingency?
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 01:50 AM
Aug 2021

So you wouldn't fly in more troops as a contingency or show of force to make sure the Taliban comply? Have US Soldiers go out and make sure we get those tens of thousands of people out of Kabul? Out of the other cities there? You are 100% trusting the Taliban?

marble falls

(57,013 posts)
59. We.Couldn't.Make.The.Taliban.Comply.When.We.Were."Winning". ...
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 09:10 AM
Aug 2021

And now we are retreating. R-e-t-r-e-a-t-i-n-g.

It's been said the Taliban was threatened with the US military would take their home villages completely off the map. That the US had 1000s of drones and cruise missiles. That we were leaving and would be gone only if they cooperated.

Helicopters of full Afghans have come to Kabul in the last few days, that could only happen with the Taliban's cooperation.

The major reason things got gummed was not Joe Biden or the military or the Taliban, it was Ghani and all the leadership leaving, creating a vacuum that sucked the Taliban in quicker.

But the process never stopped. There was no security at the airport because the government totally collapsed and gov't troops disarmed and ran away.

The only contingency left after the government evaporated was to keep it moving, and that's what the US did.

Thank G*D for Joe Biden.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
53. They're really letting the MSM draw them into this
Fri Aug 20, 2021, 09:24 PM
Aug 2021

analyzing, monday morning quarterbacking, deciding what should have been done by people who know a lot more about it, insisting it is messed up or bungled because the media wants it to be.

marble falls

(57,013 posts)
62. It's crazy. I've worked large events where semis and celebrities for 1,000+ ...
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 11:21 AM
Aug 2021

... I've arranged for delivery of product, receiving of raw material during storms, strikes, road/track/air disruptions.

What it takes for the military to keep this thing going in the face of plans going away by the instant of Ghani and the entire government control evaporating, is amazing. And add news representations, always based on anecdote. Yes there are those who haven't gotten out of a nation the last administration set the end of May 2020 for getting out of. But downplay the 10s of 1000s we've gotten out just in the last week.

Joe Biden deserves our quiet thanks.

And once again, the US Military has proven when they are not raining pure hell down in useless Asian land wars, it is the best equipt, best trained, the largest manned disaster relief force on the planet. The US Military is able to restore order in a timely fashion where-ever they stand.

Too bad, Ghani pull the civil structure down.

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
5. Neither airport is defensible in the traditional sense
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 04:03 PM
Aug 2021

There aren’t enough troops/equipment on the ground.

What is “defending” the airport at this point is an agreement with the Taliban. Essentially - “leave it alone or we strike back” (which we do still have the power to do).

To the extent that works, it works equally well at either location.

kentuck

(111,052 posts)
9. "leave it alone or we strike back"
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 04:10 PM
Aug 2021

You may be right. This may be the best deal available at this time? Trust the Taliban to keep their word?

FBaggins

(26,721 posts)
23. I don't think that we have a choice
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 04:38 PM
Aug 2021

We could of course land far more troops and take control of the area by force - but there would likely be significant casualties and it could easily start an active shooting war again.

But there's just enough credibility left in our threat of force for them to play nice for a short period. They see that we're running away and they get to declare victory. Why take the risk of sparking a new conflict?

marble falls

(57,013 posts)
26. And it's working. I'm sure each side has a knife to the other's throat, but the agreement ...
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 05:29 PM
Aug 2021

... with all its implicit threats, seems to be holding. I bet RWers are on their cell phones right this moment trying to buy some of those sweet, never fired automatic weapons. And ammo. Lotssa ammo.

LuvLoogie

(6,935 posts)
12. You'd still have to secure Kabul airport.
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 04:19 PM
Aug 2021

You still need an infrastructure supporting a civilian population. There is more of that in Kabul than in the surroundings of Bagram. It seems Kabul could absorb an influx of refugees better than the terrain surrounding Bagram.

kentuck

(111,052 posts)
17. Good point !
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 04:27 PM
Aug 2021

The low number of Taliban now in Kabul would not seem capable of covering such a big city as Kabul? I would guess they will re-inforce their numbers in the next few days. Baradar the Butcher is in Kandihar. He is likely on his way to Kabul?

They will need to choose who is going to lead them? Baradar may be their choice? It seems likely that they will be very busy in the next few days?

marble falls

(57,013 posts)
34. This was all negotiated. The only adlib was from Ghani, when he and his government decamped ...
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 05:49 PM
Aug 2021

... and now it's reported, he's offered to go back.

This is going to work out. Ghani leaving created a vacuum that pulled the Taliban in.

The Taliban has reopened some girls' schools.

So far, so good.

Calista241

(5,586 posts)
35. Bagram was our airbase from 2001 until a few weeks ago when we left
Wed Aug 18, 2021, 05:50 PM
Aug 2021

in the middle of the night. That midnight evacuation, without telling anyone we were leaving, is what's causing a lot of the panic on the part of our Afghan allies and supporters.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
45. Sounds as such predicated on what precise and objective measure?
Fri Aug 20, 2021, 07:05 PM
Aug 2021

These aren't counters on a map board. And soak-off attacks means actual, dead civilians, not just dice rolls.

WarGamer

(12,369 posts)
46. I'm just arguing that...
Fri Aug 20, 2021, 07:10 PM
Aug 2021

The last place you evacuate in this situation is the place where you've concentrated and focused most of your power/strength.

The DoD and State screwed the pooch, royally. I said in another post, I don't blame Biden AT ALL, not a bit. But "his people" need to be fired.

There should have been orderly evacuations from Kabul to Bagram. Evidently State had weeks of warnings that Kabul could collapse in a heartbeat.

Pink slips should be flying. I don't want Joe to be up there saying "The buck stops with me" and this horseshit... he didn't do anything wrong.

Sympthsical

(9,041 posts)
44. We had the option to keep Bagram
Fri Aug 20, 2021, 06:56 PM
Aug 2021

We actively chose not to.

It's one of the bigger instances of, "What were people thinking here?" that is littering all of this.

Never should've happened. Not with all the warnings coming down.

kentuck

(111,052 posts)
48. My understanding was that it was so huge...
Fri Aug 20, 2021, 07:52 PM
Aug 2021

that as they drew the troops down below 2500, they didn't have the manpower or security to protect it? So they moved to the Kabul Airport to finish the mission?

Sympthsical

(9,041 posts)
49. Then they should have put more troops in
Fri Aug 20, 2021, 08:01 PM
Aug 2021

The President ended up having to put more troops in anyway. It's clear this withdrawal was not prepared as it should have been. And that's a wild understatement.

Beefing up a force to secure withdrawal would not have been against the ultimate objectives of President Biden's policy.

There were warnings this was coming. The NYT had a long article about it a few days ago. There were failures here.

kentuck

(111,052 posts)
51. I dont think anyone suspected the government would fall so quickly or that..
Fri Aug 20, 2021, 09:19 PM
Aug 2021

...the military would disintegrate and disappear. I don't think the NYTimes of any of the experts predicted any such collapse.

If there is someone to blame, would the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs be a place to start? After all, he was around when Trump made his deal with the Taliban, without any Afghan government input. He was in charge of the military decisions, along with others.

However, the buck stops at the resolute desk. The President is the Commander in Chief.

Sympthsical

(9,041 posts)
54. People keep repeating this, but it's just a complete falsehood.
Fri Aug 20, 2021, 09:39 PM
Aug 2021

Look at the statements President Biden was giving today. At one point, he said, "Nobody saw . . . wait . . . I shouldn't say nobody . . . There was consensus . . ."

And then he kept coming back to that word over and over. Consensus.

Why? Because there were reports and warnings. I'll post the article again. Emphases are mine:

WASHINGTON — Classified assessments by American spy agencies over the summer painted an increasingly grim picture of the prospect of a Taliban takeover of Afghanistan and warned of the rapid collapse of the Afghan military, even as President Biden and his advisers said publicly that was unlikely to happen as quickly, according to current and former American government officials.

By July, many intelligence reports grew more pessimistic, questioning whether any Afghan security forces would muster serious resistance and whether the government could hold on in Kabul, the capital. President Biden said on July 8 that the Afghan government was unlikely to fall and that there would be no chaotic evacuations of Americans similar to the end of the Vietnam War.

The drumbeat of warnings over the summer raise questions about why Biden administration officials, and military planners in Afghanistan, seemed ill-prepared to deal with the Taliban’s final push into Kabul, including a failure to ensure security at the main airport and rushing thousands more troops back to the country to protect the United States’ final exit.

One report in July — as dozens of Afghan districts were falling and Taliban fighters were laying siege to several major cities — laid out the growing risks to Kabul, noting that the Afghan government was unprepared for a Taliban assault, according to a person familiar with the intelligence.

Intelligence agencies predicted that should the Taliban seize cities, a cascading collapse could happen rapidly and the Afghan security forces were at high risk of falling apart. It is unclear whether other reports during this period presented a more optimistic picture about the ability of the Afghan military and the government in Kabul to withstand the insurgents.


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/17/us/politics/afghanistan-biden-administration.html

It is bizarre for people to stand around going, "We had no idea this was coming!"

Well, someone did. Many someones. It should stop being said that this was all a surprise. If it was a surprise, that is a world class fuck up. You're then given a choice - ignorance or incompetence.

You don't want either in your quiver when struggling for political optics.

kentuck

(111,052 posts)
55. Also, did anyone say this might happen after February 2020 until January 2021?
Fri Aug 20, 2021, 11:16 PM
Aug 2021

What was going on between Feb 20 and Jan 21?

Did no one dare say anything to the President at that time? Did anyone tell him he was screwing up? Or did they just accept that from Trump because that is what he did. He knew how to do nothing else.

How many options did he actually leave Biden? How many troops did he leave Biden?

Should Biden have sent troops back in?

Or should he have continued the withdrawal as had been agreed to a year earlier?

I heard no one saying that the government would collapse so quickly or that the military would disappear? There were generals and experts all over the TV and none of them said that might happen? Perhaps in secret, they were telling the leaders that?

It seems to me that this is a time for the country to unite, while our troops are under threat, and the country is in a tough spot, regardless of who is to blame. The blame can be ladled out later.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
52. I don't think there was such a lack of planning
Fri Aug 20, 2021, 09:21 PM
Aug 2021

that if such a thing were better, those handling it would have done that.

brooklynite

(94,363 posts)
56. Jason Kander: centralizing operations at Bagram is a bad idea...
Fri Aug 20, 2021, 11:23 PM
Aug 2021

The reason operations are centralized at Kabul Airport is that people who want to get out can get to the airport. Bagram is 45 minutes away at top speed, on a dangerous road.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»The US should move its op...